Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

DDuke

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

As for the charge morph, I don't see why anyone would want to make javelin a useless skill on their bar by using the stun morph of charge.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean its not a viable option. It means you just discount things that are inconvenient to your argument.

No, I discount it because I think it's garbage (and could use a buff actually) and people shouldn't use it if they want to min-max their characters.

But that's besides the point, even if you were to use the dodgeable form of templar charge, as a non-spammable ability with quite low damage that doesn't constitute even 5% of the damage dealt by templars.

The bulk of the damage from most templars comes from soul assault, jbeam, purifying light & sweeps - all undodgeable btw.

mandricus

I came in just to add another useless opinion on the "Nerf Sorcs" train.

A lot of players of this game (me included) thinks that MagSorcs deserves a nerf, both in PvE and in PvP, because at the moment they have pretty much everything: tankiness, burst damage, survaivability, mobility, sustain, crowd control.

Running the Maelstrom Arena with a MagSorc compared to the effort that it takes with a StamBlade it's just ridicolous. The "Stormproof" title on a MagSorc it's an insult to all the folks that were able to complete the arena with any Stamina spec, expecially a Nightblade. The difficulty level is just non-comparable. With a Sorc you just stack shields, do ranged damage, throw a destro ulti when needed, and forgot about the incoming damage, you just don't care about what happens. Not to mention that playing with heavy attacks you don't have the need to manage your resources, a thing that it's usually the biggest issue in boss fights in Maelstrom for any other class / spec.

The devs simply don't care, because they play sorcs too, and so they don't want to nerf theirself.

At this point, the only sensible option we have is to stop whining, and jump on the Sorc train.

We already see that in Vet Trials almost everyone is running a MagSorc, every Veteran Trial now looks like pretty much like this:





Anyway, looks like this is still not enough to raise an alarm and let the devs think "hmmm may be we have to tune them down a little bit".
I hope that, in a near future, we are going to see only MagSorcs fightings on Cyrodii, Battlegrounds and Imperial City.
May be that day, when everyone will be playing a MagSorc and any other spec / class will be almost non-existant, devs will realize that this class needs a little tuning down.

In the meantime, do a pleasure to yourself, like I did to me: forget about any other alt, and start playing a MagSorc.
And Enjoy the ride (while it lasts).

Joy_Division

DDuke wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

As for the charge morph, I don't see why anyone would want to make javelin a useless skill on their bar by using the stun morph of charge.

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean its not a viable option. It means you just discount things that are inconvenient to your argument.

No, I discount it because I think it's garbage (and could use a buff actually) and people shouldn't use it if they want to min-max their characters.

But that's besides the point, even if you were to use the dodgeable form of templar charge, as a non-spammable ability with quite low damage that doesn't constitute even 5% of the damage dealt by templars.

The bulk of the damage from most templars comes from soul assault, jbeam, purifying light & sweeps - all undodgeable btw.

You are entitled to your opinion, but your opinion does not invalidate what others believe.

A lot of templars use toppling because a stun is a good CC and is naturally followed up by sweeps. A templar who uses toppling for CC can slot another skill to replace Javelin. Such builds are used by good players and perform just fine in Cyrodiil, though I won't argue against a buff if that's something ZoS wants to do.

But this is all besides the point of the thread, which is about sorcerer shields, not what templars can or can;t do to dodgeable targets.

Biro123

Sorry man, 2 decent players will (and do) melt through shields.

Wrath is dodgeable (the proc isn't but you have to land the dodgeable initial hit first). You're counting heavy attacks under sorc skills? Lightning staves aren't really a popular choice outside of PVE.

And yes, comparing shielding to healing IS a bad example. I can't get much bluer in the face in saying that healing is there to replace damage done AFTER mitigation, blocking, dodging etc. That combination is what scales much, much better vs multiple opponents

You give a skewed view of 'how can you expect to 1vx if you can't 1v1?' But you're not talking about getting killed by the sorc, you're talking about being unable to kill him. Kill the other X instead, you still win the 1vx. Try to Xv1 by shielding (as opposed to the usual sorc way of running away and hope all but 1 get bored, then kill him and then go after the others 1 by 1) you won't kill anbody.

mandricus wrote: »

I came in just to add another useless opinion on the "Nerf Sorcs" train.

A lot of players of this game (me included) thinks that MagSorcs deserves a nerf, both in PvE and in PvP, because at the moment they have pretty much everything: tankiness, burst damage, survaivability, mobility, sustain, crowd control.

Running the Maelstrom Arena with a MagSorc compared to the effort that it takes with a StamBlade it's just ridicolous. The "Stormproof" title on a MagSorc it's an insult to all the folks that were able to complete the arena with any Stamina spec, expecially a Nightblade. The difficulty level is just non-comparable. With a Sorc you just stack shields, do ranged damage, throw a destro ulti when needed, and forgot about the incoming damage, you just don't care about what happens. Not to mention that playing with heavy attacks you don't have the need to manage your resources, a thing that it's usually the biggest issue in boss fights in Maelstrom for any other class / spec.

The devs simply don't care, because they play sorcs too, and so they don't want to nerf theirself.

At this point, the only sensible option we have is to stop whining, and jump on the Sorc train.

We already see that in Vet Trials almost everyone is running a MagSorc, every Veteran Trial now looks like pretty much like this:





Anyway, looks like this is still not enough to raise an alarm and let the devs think "hmmm may be we have to tune them down a little bit".
I hope that, in a near future, we are going to see only MagSorcs fightings on Cyrodii, Battlegrounds and Imperial City.
May be that day, when everyone will be playing a MagSorc and any other spec / class will be almost non-existant, devs will realize that this class needs a little tuning down.

In the meantime, do a pleasure to yourself, like I did to me: forget about any other alt, and start playing a MagSorc.
And Enjoy the ride (while it lasts).

Really? I mean I don't do trials, but are the tanks and healers really all sorcs? Are all of the damage dealers sorcs too?

Biro123

Let me just link this.:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/360905/magsorc-build-for-the-next-patch#latest

It's my thoughts on how I will have to change my sorc build next patch to deal with Oblivion. There are my honest thoughts, sorc to sorc - not biased in any pro-sorc vs anti-sorc way.

So you have a view as to how much oblivion damage will impact sorcs (mine in particular)... The TLDR versoin is..:

Losing around 12k magica
Running only one shield (no room for more)
Giving up on DW (and the spelldmg that comes with it)
Forced into Resto (ulti becomes the only burst heal)
Having 3 buffs/hots to keep up (formerly 1)
Loss of armour trait flexibility
Loss of monster set flexibility (and build limitations due to needing to run a full set)
Has sustain issues

Gets more mobility (now needs to run away more)
Gets to spam oblivion glyphs.
Can spam mutagen (with troll-king) on others for a bit more group support.

I'm not complaining about this - I'm just complaining about those asking for more nerfs.

DDuke

Biro123 wrote: »

Sorry man, 2 decent players will (and do) melt through shields.

Sorry, but I think you might need to adjust your build if you think that is the case.


Now let's look at the math of it all:

Those two players would each need to maintain 15k DPS (7,5k in PvP) to get through one 15k shield (still not touching sorc's health bar).

Is it possible in PvP gear, without crits & CPs reducing the damage you deal? Sure, if those two decent players are playing high damage setups and if the sorc just stands still and takes damage. But it will still take a long time before that sorc is actually dead if the sorc plays defensively.

That is not "melting".

If you want to experience "melting", play a medium armor stam build & get hit by Frag+Wrath+Soul Assault, or maybe Soul Assault+Warden birds, or jbeam. Fun times.

Biro123 wrote: »

Wrath is dodgeable (the proc isn't but you have to land the dodgeable initial hit first). You're counting heavy attacks under sorc skills? Lightning staves aren't really a popular choice outside of PVE.

Ah, here's the thing: no one can dodge forever. That Wrath will get applied eventually (because you can't really pressure anyone and prevent that while dodge rolling either) and it's the proc which counts.

Also, lightning staff is still extremely popular (especially among sorcs who get more damage out of it) thanks to Minor Vulnerability (yes, equal to the 8% single target damage you get from having inferno staff).

Biro123 wrote: »

And yes, comparing shielding to healing IS a bad example. I can't get much bluer in the face in saying that healing is there to replace damage done AFTER mitigation, blocking, dodging etc. That combination is what scales much, much better vs multiple opponents

Well, obviously you'll want a heal to along with the shields, in case any of the damage goes through. But you know this already, don' t you?

Good thing you have the second strongest burst heal in the game as sorcerer (Twilight Matriarch), or something like Healing Ward on resto off bar, while stamina builds get to heal for a pitiful 1k-1,5k/second. (around 500-1k/s once you've got Major Defile on you).

How do you imagine that scales vs multiple opponents, especially when the vast majority of stuff ignores your other defensive mechanic (which btw is also available to the magicka sorcerer, you can even dodge roll like a stam build with Amberplasm)?

Biro123 wrote: »

You give a skewed view of 'how can you expect to 1vx if you can't 1v1?' But you're not talking about getting killed by the sorc, you're talking about being unable to kill him. Kill the other X instead, you still win the 1vx. Try to Xv1 by shielding (as opposed to the usual sorc way of running away and hope all but 1 get bored, then kill him and then go after the others 1 by 1) you won't kill anbody.

It sounds to me like you seriously underestimate the damage you can deal as a sorcerer. You have the second highest burst damage combo in the game, how about you use that?

And that very thing is also the reason (along with undodgeable stuff) why you can't just "ignore the sorc" and focus on the other people.


Edit: I read what gear you're running. Just swap to Necropotence+Amberplasm & Shadowrend (next patch) & you'll understand.

Biro123

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Sorry man, 2 decent players will (and do) melt through shields.

Sorry, but I think you might need to adjust your build if you think that is the case.


Now let's look at the math of it all:

Those two players would each need to maintain 15k DPS (7,5k in PvP) to get through one 15k shield (still not touching sorc's health bar).

Is it possible in PvP gear, without crits & CPs reducing the damage you deal? Sure, if those two decent players are playing high damage setups and if the sorc just stands still and takes damage. But it will still take a long time before that sorc is actually dead if the sorc plays defensively.

That is not "melting".

If you want to experience "melting", play a medium armor stam build & get hit by Frag+Wrath+Soul Assault, or maybe Soul Assault+Warden birds, or jbeam. Fun times.

Biro123 wrote: »

Wrath is dodgeable (the proc isn't but you have to land the dodgeable initial hit first). You're counting heavy attacks under sorc skills? Lightning staves aren't really a popular choice outside of PVE.

Ah, here's the thing: no one can dodge forever. That Wrath will get applied eventually (because you can't really pressure anyone and prevent that while dodge rolling either) and it's the proc which counts.

Also, lightning staff is still extremely popular (especially among sorcs who get more damage out of it) thanks to Minor Vulnerability (yes, equal to the 8% single target damage you get from having inferno staff).

Biro123 wrote: »

And yes, comparing shielding to healing IS a bad example. I can't get much bluer in the face in saying that healing is there to replace damage done AFTER mitigation, blocking, dodging etc. That combination is what scales much, much better vs multiple opponents

Well, obviously you'll want a heal to along with the shields, in case any of the damage goes through. But you know this already, don' t you?

Good thing you have the second strongest burst heal in the game as sorcerer (Twilight Matriarch), or something like Healing Ward on resto off bar, while stamina builds get to heal for a pitiful 1k-1,5k/second. (around 500-1k/s once you've got Major Defile on you).

How do you imagine that scales vs multiple opponents, especially when the vast majority of stuff ignores your other defensive mechanic (which btw is also available to the magicka sorcerer, you can even dodge roll like a stam build with Amberplasm)?

Biro123 wrote: »

You give a skewed view of 'how can you expect to 1vx if you can't 1v1?' But you're not talking about getting killed by the sorc, you're talking about being unable to kill him. Kill the other X instead, you still win the 1vx. Try to Xv1 by shielding (as opposed to the usual sorc way of running away and hope all but 1 get bored, then kill him and then go after the others 1 by 1) you won't kill anbody.

It sounds to me like you seriously underestimate the damage you can deal as a sorcerer. You have the second highest burst damage combo in the game, how about you use that?

And that very thing is also the reason (along with undodgeable stuff) why you can't just "ignore the sorc" and focus on the other people.

Oky - one bit at a time.

1. Melt through shields.. I didn't say melt through player. When 2 people are melting through shields meaning you have to use every single cooldown to cast a shield - you have lost. As soon as then next CC comes (Dizzying swing anyone?) That 15kPDS done to a shield becomes 20k damage to the sorc's health (if only one of them crits)

2. Yes - medium is the weakest armour type in terms of defence. I don't dispute that - but you don't have to wear it - and I'm still trying to figure out how your main complaint of 'medium is weak' translates to 'nerf sorcs'

3. You're right - nobody can dodge forever.. But that medium armour guy can dodge a LOT more than most - and lets not forget that dodge is a defensive move which ALSO gives positioning - so you shouldn't have to dodge forever so long as there's a tree or a rock somewhere. YOu can, however apply more pressure while dodging than you can while shielding. You can LA,Ability,Dodge all in one cooldown (with those proc sets still a-proccing). But you know this. You're a competent player. It seems you just have very one-sided arguments. While casting shield at best you can weave with a single light-attack.

4. I guess we play in different places then. Its very rare I see lightning staff used. Minor Vuln is nice, but has a low proc-rate from light/heavy attacks. If you wanted that, would be better off with a flame staff running lightning glyph.

5. Yes, you do have to heal with shields. But can you do both in the same cd? Can you heal, ani-cancelled with a shield? Can you 'shield-cast' heals like you can block-cast?. The point is, when you need that heal, its because your shield has gone. When your shield has gone - the priority is to put it back up again. You can only realistically heal when you manage to Los or CC the opponent. You could heal instead of shield - but unlike a stam build, there is no way that the heal will counter the damage you take in the time it takes to cast it - let alone recover the damage you already lost.

I think you underestimate the strength of a decent pre-cast hot (twice the strength of mutagen) coupled with stam-based defences (dodging, blocking, repositioning and the occasional burst from rally. You didn't forget Rally did you?). Or the ability to ani-cancel vigour with a roll-dodge behind a rock.
Yes, a sorc can dodge-roll too - but nowhere near as much and with much more risk than a stam toon built for it (btw I DO believe amberplasm gives too much and needs a nerf).

6. 2nd highest burst - and by far the most telegraphed burst. When good stmblade goes on the defensive the ONLY thing I hit him with is curse - and vigour heals through that.


You cannot still be saying that shields scale better than dodging. For a single absurd example, if a single 10k frag comes in - both shield and dodge will mean that neither takes damage. If 5 come in together, the dodger takes 0 damage. The shielder is dead. This is the very simple and obvious reason why shields don't scale. The sorcs that 1vX don't do it because of shield strength - they already have relatively weak shields. They do it with Amberplasm, with immovable pots, with Boundless Storm AND Streak. And lots and lots of running/los-ing - just like any other class.

Feanor

Of course we could go back to those times:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3177848#Comment_3177848

I guess that's what all the stam players here want to accomplish.

DDuke

Biro123 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Sorry man, 2 decent players will (and do) melt through shields.

Sorry, but I think you might need to adjust your build if you think that is the case.


Now let's look at the math of it all:

Those two players would each need to maintain 15k DPS (7,5k in PvP) to get through one 15k shield (still not touching sorc's health bar).

Is it possible in PvP gear, without crits & CPs reducing the damage you deal? Sure, if those two decent players are playing high damage setups and if the sorc just stands still and takes damage. But it will still take a long time before that sorc is actually dead if the sorc plays defensively.

That is not "melting".

If you want to experience "melting", play a medium armor stam build & get hit by Frag+Wrath+Soul Assault, or maybe Soul Assault+Warden birds, or jbeam. Fun times.

Biro123 wrote: »

Wrath is dodgeable (the proc isn't but you have to land the dodgeable initial hit first). You're counting heavy attacks under sorc skills? Lightning staves aren't really a popular choice outside of PVE.

Ah, here's the thing: no one can dodge forever. That Wrath will get applied eventually (because you can't really pressure anyone and prevent that while dodge rolling either) and it's the proc which counts.

Also, lightning staff is still extremely popular (especially among sorcs who get more damage out of it) thanks to Minor Vulnerability (yes, equal to the 8% single target damage you get from having inferno staff).

Biro123 wrote: »

And yes, comparing shielding to healing IS a bad example. I can't get much bluer in the face in saying that healing is there to replace damage done AFTER mitigation, blocking, dodging etc. That combination is what scales much, much better vs multiple opponents

Well, obviously you'll want a heal to along with the shields, in case any of the damage goes through. But you know this already, don' t you?

Good thing you have the second strongest burst heal in the game as sorcerer (Twilight Matriarch), or something like Healing Ward on resto off bar, while stamina builds get to heal for a pitiful 1k-1,5k/second. (around 500-1k/s once you've got Major Defile on you).

How do you imagine that scales vs multiple opponents, especially when the vast majority of stuff ignores your other defensive mechanic (which btw is also available to the magicka sorcerer, you can even dodge roll like a stam build with Amberplasm)?

Biro123 wrote: »

You give a skewed view of 'how can you expect to 1vx if you can't 1v1?' But you're not talking about getting killed by the sorc, you're talking about being unable to kill him. Kill the other X instead, you still win the 1vx. Try to Xv1 by shielding (as opposed to the usual sorc way of running away and hope all but 1 get bored, then kill him and then go after the others 1 by 1) you won't kill anbody.

It sounds to me like you seriously underestimate the damage you can deal as a sorcerer. You have the second highest burst damage combo in the game, how about you use that?

And that very thing is also the reason (along with undodgeable stuff) why you can't just "ignore the sorc" and focus on the other people.

Oky - one bit at a time.

1. Melt through shields.. I didn't say melt through player. When 2 people are melting through shields meaning you have to use every single cooldown to cast a shield - you have lost. As soon as then next CC comes (Dizzying swing anyone?) That 15kPDS done to a shield becomes 20k damage to the sorc's health (if only one of them crits)

Not really, chances are those two players are high damage low sustain & run out of resources spamming skills at your shield (remember, it takes more resources to break a shield than it takes to cast one).

You'll also passively be dealing damage to them with pets while they hit you, meaning that your opponents will have to defend themselves as well - this provides windows of opportunity for you to drop mines, streak etc & set up for instagib combo with frags on one of your opponents. Or alternatively just streak away.

Also, who uses Dizzying Swing? xD

Can't think of any class besides stamina warden (as they lack better CC options) which would slot it.

Biro123 wrote: »

2. Yes - medium is the weakest armour type in terms of defence. I don't dispute that - but you don't have to wear it - and I'm still trying to figure out how your main complaint of 'medium is weak' translates to 'nerf sorcs'

Well, ZOS doesn't respond to "buff threads", ZOS responds to "nerf threads" - so here we are, starting with the most overtuned class. I'd love for ZOS to buff other armor types and classes to the same level, but we both know that's unlikely to happen.

Biro123 wrote: »

3. You're right - nobody can dodge forever.. But that medium armour guy can dodge a LOT more than most - and lets not forget that dodge is a defensive move which ALSO gives positioning - so you shouldn't have to dodge forever so long as there's a tree or a rock somewhere. YOu can, however apply more pressure while dodging than you can while shielding. You can LA,Ability,Dodge all in one cooldown (with those proc sets still a-proccing). But you know this. You're a competent player. It seems you just have very one-sided arguments. While casting shield at best you can weave with a single light-attack.

Dodge cancel used to be very effective back in the days before Battle Spirit (and stacking cost), when everything dealt more damage - but these days it mostly just pokes the opponent. You lock yourself in the roll animation for 1,5 seconds and can't follow up with damage, meaning that the opponent has plenty of time to recover.

That, and the dodge roll barely accomplishes anything anymore (see my post on previous page detailing undodgeable damage in the game).

I do agree it's useful when there's LoS around though, assuming you don't die before you get behind anything.

Biro123 wrote: »

4. I guess we play in different places then. Its very rare I see lightning staff used. Minor Vuln is nice, but has a low proc-rate from light/heavy attacks. If you wanted that, would be better off with a flame staff running lightning glyph.

I guess so. I've found that most people want Oblivion enchant on their weapons, so lightning glyph isn't an option, usually.

Biro123 wrote: »

5. Yes, you do have to heal with shields. But can you do both in the same cd? Can you heal, ani-cancelled with a shield? Can you 'shield-cast' heals like you can block-cast?. The point is, when you need that heal, its because your shield has gone. When your shield has gone - the priority is to put it back up again. You can only realistically heal when you manage to Los or CC the opponent. You could heal instead of shield - but unlike a stam build, there is no way that the heal will counter the damage you take in the time it takes to cast it - let alone recover the damage you already lost.

I think you underestimate the strength of a decent pre-cast hot (twice the strength of mutagen) coupled with stam-based defences (dodging, blocking, repositioning and the occasional burst from rally. You didn't forget Rally did you?). Or the ability to ani-cancel vigour with a roll-dodge behind a rock.
Yes, a sorc can dodge-roll too - but nowhere near as much and with much more risk than a stam toon built for it (btw I DO believe amberplasm gives too much and needs a nerf).

Yes, you can do both in the same cd with a skill called Healing Ward - or you can just spam shield and/or streak until you've got time to heal yourself. Alternative: slot frost staff & block (or just spend stamina blocking if you don't have too many people on you)

Trust me, that accomplishes much more than dodge rolling (you can do that too btw), unless you're fighting a non-Warden/Templar stam build - in which case you "only" take their axe bleeds, PI, blood craze bleed & Dawnbreaker (next patch) while dodging.

And that's the best case scenario - next patch there'll be bleed builds with DW Ulti as well, which means more undodgeable damage from them though.

Biro123 wrote: »

6. 2nd highest burst - and by far the most telegraphed burst. When good stmblade goes on the defensive the ONLY thing I hit him with is curse - and vigour heals through that.


You cannot still be saying that shields scale better than dodging. For a single absurd example, if a single 10k frag comes in - both shield and dodge will mean that neither takes damage. If 5 come in together, the dodger takes 0 damage. The shielder is dead. This is the very simple and obvious reason why shields don't scale. The sorcs that 1vX don't do it because of shield strength - they already have relatively weak shields. They do it with Amberplasm, with immovable pots, with Boundless Storm AND Streak. And lots and lots of running/los-ing - just like any other class.

Vigor heals pretty much exactly the amount of damage Curse deals (with 7x medium impen, 4k weapon dmg & 36k stamina) - any other damage starts outdamaging Vigor (which I have to cast much more often than a sorc has to cast Curse).

Most people don't build for high damage/healing, so I wouldn't expect their Vigor to even outheal Curse.

And yes, shields do scale better than dodging.

Here's another example for you:
5 little birdies hit the dodgy dodge roller - dodgy dodge roller dead.
5 little birdies hit the shielded sorc - sorc streaks away

Or how about this one:
Two Soul Assaults hit the dodgy dodge roller - dodgy dodge roller dead
Two Soul Assaults hit the sorc with shield - the sorc smiles & shields again


I do agree with your assessment on 1vX though - running/LoS (or a functional cloak) is necessary for that unless you're:
a) fighting potatoes
b) heavy armor permablocker (probably the best scaling defense in game btw, but they pay a big price for it in damage/burst)

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

Of course we could go back to those times:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3177848#Comment_3177848

I guess that's what all the stam players here want to accomplish.

Ah, 2016... the days of the stam DK with billion +healing modifiers.

While they were the top of the food chain back then, you seem to forget that magicka sorcerer is the class that still did good in 1vX and won dueling tournaments & heavy armor magicka templar was extremely strong back then as well in both 1v1 & 1vX.

The game was much better balanced to be honest, but if you want to go back to the days of good combat balance (in PvP, not PvE), you have to go further - 2015 or even 2014. You could actually run people out of resources in 2014 & end fights that way

GreenSoup2HoT

DDuke wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Of course we could go back to those times:

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/3177848#Comment_3177848

I guess that's what all the stam players here want to accomplish.

Ah, 2016... the days of the stam DK with billion +healing modifiers.

While they were the top of the food chain back then, you seem to forget that magicka sorcerer is the class that still did good in 1vX and won dueling tournaments & heavy armor magicka templar was extremely strong back then as well in both 1v1 & 1vX.

The game was much better balanced to be honest, but if you want to go back to the days of good combat balance (in PvP, not PvE), you have to go further - 2015 or even 2014. You could actually run people out of resources in 2014 & end fights that way

i remember in 1.6 i used to win fights from getting people to kneel with a long duration stun. then kill them.... until players got monster sets like enginee guardian or blood spawn.

Sureshawt

While Sorcs are clearly the EZ mode class as they:

-Have the best mitigation in the game that can't be critted and allows them to stay offensive
-Have the best passive healing in the game with crit surge
-Have the best passive damage (pets and implosion)
-Have the best conversion ability in the game with Dark Deal
-Have best battlefield mobility with Streak
-Have top burst and sustained DPS

...but at least they are not the ridiculously God mode class of the past when they could just streak around indefinitely.

Anyhow the options are to get on the sorc train, deal with it or stop playing because Sorcs have always been the favored class and always will be. One other option is to equip Shieldbreaker which is the only hard counter to shields.

Durham

What if shields got the DK treatment hmmmm..

This is a buff if you have less then 17k magicka

GreenSoup2HoT

Durham wrote: »

What if shields got the DK treatment hmmmm..

This is a buff if you have less then 17k magicka

YES

Biro123

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

What if shields got the DK treatment hmmmm..

This is a buff if you have less then 17k magicka

YES

Aand there we have the proof that some people don't want balance - they just want a class to be destroyed.

GreenSoup2HoT

Biro123 wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

What if shields got the DK treatment hmmmm..

This is a buff if you have less then 17k magicka

YES

Aand there we have the proof that some people don't want balance - they just want a class to be destroyed.

you assume a change like this would even go through because i screamed yes? i was just poking fun at the guys comment. his comment is obviously not the right one for shields. stop jumping to conclusions and assuming a players intentions for game balance.

a step in the right direction would be to balance shields not on max magicka. that way you cant sustain shield stacking for as long due to a smaller magicka pool. just to be clear this is just an idea and may also not be the correct change for shields.

Feanor

Crit surge best healing in the game. Sure. If you squint and twist everything fits into your picture I guess. If that's the foundation the nerf cries are based on it's no wonder these threads always end nowhere.

Aedaryl

OMG, I can't trust what I read.

You guyz have no idea what's balance it, especially DDuke, hwo try to make medium armor viable with broken mechanics or by nerfing balanced class skills like 99% of sorc skills.

First about that "95% skills are undodgeable"

"Warden damage: 95% undodgeable: birds, shalks, swarm DoT 5% - dodgeable: light/heavy attacks (if not lightning/resto staff)"

Birds are undodgeable and unbalanced, it's need a nerf, of course. Shalks are dodgeable, not directly, but by dodging at left or right, also, as a medium armor player, shalk can't touch you if you play right, because the front line is weak against mobility. Swarm : it's a dot and fairly undodgeable.

"Templar damage: 90% undodgeable: sweep/jabs, explosive charge, jbeam, spear, sun fire DoT - dodgeable: javelin, light/heavy attacks (if not lightning/resto staff)"

Jabs are not directly dodgeable but you can easely dodge right or left or in the player to be in the bottom of it. Jabs are a channel and their are very slow. Shuffle and mobility counter it easely. Spear is dodgeable in the way it have a very long travel time and you can easely move out of it, by a dodge roll.

"DK damage: 70% undodgeable: all DoTs, ground AoE - 40% dodgeable: whip, light/heavy attacks (if not lightning/resto staff)"

You can go out of AoE quicky with a dodge roll. Dot's are the only thing dk have agaisnt dodge roll.

"Sorc damage: 50% undodgeable: curse, fury, heavy attacks - 50% dodgeable: frags, light attacks, pet attacks"


only curse is fairly undodgeable, you can avoid the initial fury attack.

"NB damage: 20% undodgeable: cripple DoT - 80% dodgeable: concealed weapon/surprise attack, light attacks, assassin's will, strife"

20% of NB damage is making by cripple ? WUT ?

"Weapon Skill Lines: all spammables are dodgeable, DoTs are not."

If you forget, most of stamina builds are doing their main damage with weapon skill line and some classes use force pulse or clench as spammable/ in part of their main combo.

"Ultimates: all stamina ultimates are dodgeable apart from Dawnbreaker, all magicka ultimates are undodgeable apart from overload"

Is nova killing you ? Or the laughtable meteor ? Atronach impact BiS ? DK stendart monster killer ? And EoTS kill noobs, when stacked.


You are complaining about dodge roll being weak, but it's false dodge roll counter all classes in most of their ability.

The true skills by passing dodge roll and making a way to not have all damage being 100% avoid are respectively :

Jesus beam from templar which is deadly for dodge roller at low HP.
Curse from sorc which is out healed for dodge roller.
Dots from dk that can be outheal.
Warden have birds which need a serious nerf.

All stam abilities are dodgeable.

You are speaking all the time of major defile, but hwo has acces to it ?

Sorc ? No
Templar ? You can dodge the skill
Dk ? No
NB ? You can dodge the skill

Only true major defile skills that wreck dodge roll are the 1&S spammable (can be dodge roll but not when spammed 100% of the time).
And 1-2 sets that are a big investisment for the user.

Dodge roll is strong, and only 2 skills make dodge roll a problem as a main defense mechanic : Birds from warden and Soul assault. they are both OP and need a rework. You forget you can use offensive and defensive skills while avoid attacks.

Except theze 2 skills, dodge roll scales far better than a shield in 1vX.

I'm agree medium armor need a plus to make them less squishy. A minor mending for 1-2s after dodge rolling (5 pieces of medium armor needed) can solve the problem. Also, you always forget to speak about shuffle, the skill dodging for you.

You (you is people, not someone in particular) thing sorc is Overpowered. Well.

What's make them "OP" and how change it to make them "Balanced" ?.

I think Annulment and conjured ward stacking is overpowered, and it shoudn't stack.

Also, there is a problem about Necropotence, but this set can not be balanced without thinking about pet sorc, I explain :

Pet sorc need necropotence because pets scales with magicka (their damage and their heal). If you nerf Necropotence, you nerf pet sorc shield, heal and damage. Which is unfair because :

PET SORC DON'T HAVE MORE THAN 51K MAGICKA and they have 4 skills for having that. Also pets can be easely kill, making Necropotence for pet sorc a counterable set.

Necropotence is unfair when combine with NON PET SORC : With a proc set, they can have the bonus without sacrifices : they can stack 3 shields (pet sorc can't), they can slot inner light (pet sorc can't), they have enough place for all skills they want, and you can't kill the pet proc so there is no counter. And here it's start the madness.

Solution is to make Necropotence last bonus like that :

Give 2k magicka per class pet summoned, with a maximum to 4k

It will make Necropotence less OP with 100% garanteed warden pet, and with unkilable shade from NB. It will unable proc sets to proc Necropotence and it will not nerf pet sorc.

Also, about balance, pets need a 50% less cast time and the command to retreat should make pets PORT to you.

With the change about/around sorc I told, sorc is 100% balanced.

Sureshawt

Feanor wrote: »

Crit surge best healing in the game. Sure. If you squint and twist everything fits into your picture I guess. If that's the foundation the nerf cries are based on it's no wonder these threads always end nowhere.

Reading comprehension FTW.

"Passive' healing as a benefit which sorcs get just from doing critical damage to the target.

Basically free heals while staying offensive makes it the best 'Passive' heal in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't misquote me and then proceed to act like a drama queen.

KramUzibra

The shields need looked at for sure

Waffennacht

Leave wardens out of this

Vapirko

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Happily have Curse changed reversed, if Streak drops block again. Curse became unblockable when Streak became blockable. I could land Curse with Streak guaranteed, so that was actually a NERF to sorcs.

Lol, the things mag sorcs consider nerfs. It's the magicka meta age. If mag sorcs got hit with as many nerfs as stam DKs did they'd be screaming murder on the forums.

Feanor

Sureshawt wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Crit surge best healing in the game. Sure. If you squint and twist everything fits into your picture I guess. If that's the foundation the nerf cries are based on it's no wonder these threads always end nowhere.

Reading comprehension FTW.

"Passive' healing as a benefit which sorcs get just from doing critical damage to the target.

Basically free heals while staying offensive makes it the best 'Passive' heal in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't misquote me and then proceed to act like a drama queen.

It's not different to any other HoT and the condition you have to land a crit to get the heal is impractical because most people run low crit builds in PvP. A stam user could as well just cast vigor and gets the heals guaranteed.

Biro123

Feanor wrote: »

Sureshawt wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

Crit surge best healing in the game. Sure. If you squint and twist everything fits into your picture I guess. If that's the foundation the nerf cries are based on it's no wonder these threads always end nowhere.

Reading comprehension FTW.

"Passive' healing as a benefit which sorcs get just from doing critical damage to the target.

Basically free heals while staying offensive makes it the best 'Passive' heal in the game. Correct me if I'm wrong but don't misquote me and then proceed to act like a drama queen.

It's not different to any other HoT and the condition you have to land a crit to get the heal is impractical because most people run low crit builds in PvP. A stam user could as well just cast vigor and gets the heals guaranteed.

Not to mention that when you need the heal its because your shield dropped cos you're under pressure. When a sorc is under pressure, he generally has to shield spam, so certainly nowhere near enough attacking can be done to get any useful heals out of it.

Crit surge. The skill that only heals you when you don't need it.

Romu84f

Hello all,

I disagree the magicka management is bad if you dont use heavy attack = loss dps.
And the dps sorcerer depend to Vma staff, i play this one for one year and i havent one and my dps is 36 k. It s the worst dps if you not stuff max.
Still a PvP player who complains and we are tired of being nervous because of the PvP.

Jawasa

@Vapirko Poor stamdk.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TJ-5WeVsQ7A

Zer0oo

To summarize the discussion: stam nb are so weak that you have to be a god like player to kill anyone. AND NERF SORCS because of reason


But don't worry if this discussion gets 3 more pages zos will nerf mag sorcs so that they will be unplayable till the next big balance patch in 6 month.

Vapirko

@Jawasa oh they're still good, I didn't say they were bad. But stam DKs used to be king of the hill and that's where mag sorcs are now. It's the go to pvp class. I'm saying that if/when mag sorcs get hit with the kind of nerf hammer that landed on stam DKs it's gonna be legendary QQ, I dare say even surprising the stam DK crying.

Jawasa

@Vapirko I dont know if I agree. Mag sorc is good but no gods. I'd say most classes are pretty balanced just give magicka Templar a decent cc and dk group utility (both mag and stam tbh).

Strider_Roshin

Zer0oo wrote: »

To summarize the discussion: stam nb are so weak that you have to be a god like player to kill anyone. AND NERF SORCS because of reason


But don't worry if this discussion gets 3 more pages zos will nerf mag sorcs so that they will be unplayable till the next big balance patch in 6 month.

If you think the argument to nerf sorcs is without substance, you might want to work on your reading comprehension.