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Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

  • Destyran
    Destyran
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    dpencil1 wrote: »
    A Nightblade does a 47k parse, whIle my mSorc that hits 40k on live can only get 36k on the pts. We did get nerfed indirectly via Ilambir, Grothdarr, mundus and trait changes that don't play into sorc strengths, and reduced uptime on concussed.
    You are a bad sorc they have 51k parses on live. Stick to your magblade.
    Iyas wrote: »
    Stam Nb hitting 45k self DPS...I think you need to buff other classes. Especially Warden
    I think its burst damage is wayy to high on live with being able to overlap 4skills with ulti
  • Zer0oo
    Zer0oo
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    Wow all the stam pvpler really claim that stam has weak defense. :D

    Dodge rolling is the best defensive mechanism in the game combine that with extrem strong hots and a passive dodge change and you have an extrem high defensive mechanism. The only problem stamina has is doesn't have a spam-able burst heal.

    Shields are already quite expensive and last only 6 sec, the only problem i have with shields is the magica return of harness magica.
    Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
    - Update 23
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Zer0oo wrote: »
    Wow all the stam pvpler really claim that stam has weak defense. :D

    Dodge rolling is the best defensive mechanism in the game combine that with extrem strong hots and a passive dodge change and you have an extrem high defensive mechanism. The only problem stamina has is doesn't have a spam-able burst heal.

    Shields are already quite expensive and last only 6 sec, the only problem i have with shields is the magica return of harness magica.

    Fully stacked in weapon damage/stamina, my Vigor has a tooltip of 13146 over 5 seconds, or 2629/second. This is halved in PvP of course and affected further by things like Major/Minor Defile, so expect around 1k/second heals.

    A normal medium armor user doesn't stack into weapon damage/stamina as much as I do, so I'd expect their heals to be closer to 600-700/second.

    Meanwhile, a magicka user can instantly get a shield more than twice the strength of what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.

    So much for "extremely strong heals".


    And dodge rolling being the "best defensive mechanism in the game"?? You have to be kidding me.

    Half the skills in the game ignore dodge roll entirely (all DoTs, Soul Assault, Birds, jbeam etc etc) and it has a stacking 33% modifier to it if you try to spam it. Dodge roll used to be one of the strongest defensive mechanisms - these days it's a joke.


    Not that any of this matters - there's so much damage around that a medium armor stamina build can get instagibbed at any time, even with 7 Impen & 25k+ health - whatever heal you have going on doesn't matter when CC+frag+curse+execute land at the same time.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
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    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.
  • BNOC
    BNOC
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    Beardimus wrote: »
    ^ agree. I mean seriously have people run out of stuff to post about so go back to their default Nerf Sorc bandwagon. Which generally draws support from any noob at PvP who thinks they are invincible.

    L2P and sorc are the easiest to take down.

    Try managing active defence since MW resource changes dropped or seeing how useless wards are No-CP then come back and chat...

    You're Xbox Eu - Have you been in BGs yet? Sorcs are hitting so hard. All you have to do is weave one attack, curse, endless fury, proc a frag and throw it = dead. If they're not, rinse and repeat except this time ult them.

    No other class can as safely run light armour and reap the benefits of the extra spell pen, crit etc, not with a staff.

    What do you mean try managing your shields and resources? what.. with a destro front bar, resto staff back bar, harness, magicka return on your op execute and destro abilities, tri-stats or whatever sets you're running? Sounds well hard, I can see where you're coming from.
    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    ^ This.

    Edited by BNOC on July 12, 2017 3:40PM
    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox EU - 15/11/16
    578,000 - 36 Minutes 58 Seconds (Top 2 World?)

    vMSA - Magplar - Xbox NA
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  • Eirella
    Eirella
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    Because mag sorcs aren't actually over powered, and you need to L2P?
    (PC/NA) - | @Eirella - formerly @jinxgames | CP 1000+ | Mainly PvPer (EP) | Haxus
    /uninstalled
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.

    A Sorc that spams Hardened Ward non stop is a) not attacking, b) out of Magicka very soon, and c) walking AP at least in noCP. Hardened Ward in noCP is around 7 to 12k. If you really push it with stacking mag and sacrificing abilities maybe 15k. That may seem much, but again - it's the only thing between our light armor and being dead. I get that people just want to one shot everything. But that's not healthy design.

    Also that vigor heals for 11k over 5 seconds while you roll dodge, have shuffle on and possibly a rally heal incoming. Don't try to claim vigor is your only defense. Shields are.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.

    That would be because you're not giving a particularly balanced view..

    You have armour, you block - so the damage done to you is reduced, so vigour has less 'work' to do to make up for the damage you actually take. Shields take the full hit.
    Also do shields help you recover from oblivion damage? Does Vigour?

    Simple fact is that they are very different mechanics - and should stay that way. The worst thing Zos could do is to turn shields into a 'pre-heal' with all the same strengths and weaknesses as heals.. Game needs more diversity not more homogenisation.
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  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.

    A Sorc that spams Hardened Ward non stop is a) not attacking, b) out of Magicka very soon, and c) walking AP at least in noCP. Hardened Ward in noCP is around 7 to 12k. If you really push it with stacking mag and sacrificing abilities maybe 15k. That may seem much, but again - it's the only thing between our light armor and being dead. I get that people just want to one shot everything. But that's not healthy design.

    Also that vigor heals for 11k over 5 seconds while you roll dodge, have shuffle on and possibly a rally heal incoming. Don't try to claim vigor is your only defense. Shields are.

    And a stamina build that spams Vigor or Rally is only wasting his/her resources.

    Yet, those heals you can cast only once every 5 seconds to get any benefit from are the only thing between medium armor and being dead (yes, I'm using your words) - because like it or not dodge roll (which you also can't spam) only prevents maybe half the damage (not even that vs wardens, whose direct damage is also undodgeable) in the game.

    And shields aren't your only defense, you also have twilight pet to heal you and/or resto staff off bar.


    Atleast try to remain factual please.
    Biro123 wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.

    That would be because you're not giving a particularly balanced view..

    You have armour, you block - so the damage done to you is reduced, so vigour has less 'work' to do to make up for the damage you actually take. Shields take the full hit.
    Also do shields help you recover from oblivion damage? Does Vigour?

    Simple fact is that they are very different mechanics - and should stay that way. The worst thing Zos could do is to turn shields into a 'pre-heal' with all the same strengths and weaknesses as heals.. Game needs more diversity not more homogenisation.

    You get 17% mitigation in medium armor - that's not much armor at all. And you sure as hell can't block as a medium armor user and expect to have any stamina left.

    Shields may take the full hit, but they also prevent crits from happening (which can be up to 70-80% damage reduced, compare that to the 17% mitigation).


    What ZOS needs to do is balance the game, nothing else.
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mag sorcs are hands down best class.

    No other class or world skill can touch them on their class shield. Load up bastion and your 10second empowered ward becomes extremely powerful. 10 seconds gives you enough time to proactively preload a shield, burst an opponent and feel confident that the shield will still be up to defend counter play. 6 second shields are much more of a reactionary defense. Just to sweetened that skill for magsorcs they also get 10% increased magicka recovery.

    Magsorcs possibly have the best burst in the game and they do not rely on proc sets.

    Their mobility is hands down best. Sure streaking multiple times starts to become a strain, at around 3 times, but a smart sorc only needs to streak once. Using the terrain to their advantage. Cyrodil is filled with many areas where streak can easily navigate an extremely challenging gap buying sorcs enough time (which won't be long thanks to dark conversion) to charge up and go back on the offensive again.

    Top notched burst that does not rely on proc sets, unparralled mobility and a strong proactive class shield makes sorcs untouched and in much need of some balancing.

    I'm fine with sorcs remaining where they are, if the buff up other classes to be on par.
    Edited by Drdeath20 on July 12, 2017 3:58PM
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    @DDuke

    What we can agree on is that medium Armour is not in the spot it should be. Hell, even NBs have been wearing heavy. That has nothing to do with Sorc shields though. The Armour lines should be reworked. ZOS adamantly refuses to do so unfortunately. But making everything equally trashy is not the solution either.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Magdalina
    Magdalina
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    ✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    Just for the sake of the argument, shields do not mitigate all damage. Shields mitigate as much raw(no crits, but no spell/physical resist either) damage as a shield has points. 10k shield will mitigate 10k damage. If you're hit by 2 10k attacks at the same time while having a shield up, the second 10k will land right home. If you roll dodge these 2 attacks you will avoid both - if they're dodgeable. And I do feel they should cut the undodgeable unblockable crap, removing counterplay is just silly.

    Now if you're being attacked by several people at once and are being hit with 5+ attacks at once...yeah...somehow dodging seems a lot more fascinating all of a sudden.
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.

    1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
    1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.

    Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
    .

    Just curious - how does Vigor scale with weapon damage and crit? Admittedly I don't play stamina. I can tell you that shields ignore spelldamage fully and completely though(and they obviously can't crit) however. You've only mention half of the equation, let's bring out the other half too.
  • Tasear
    Tasear
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    Why is there never any nerfed x any other class?
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    Vigor scales with weapon damage.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Zer0oo
    Zer0oo
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Zer0oo wrote: »
    Wow all the stam pvpler really claim that stam has weak defense. :D

    Dodge rolling is the best defensive mechanism in the game combine that with extrem strong hots and a passive dodge change and you have an extrem high defensive mechanism. The only problem stamina has is doesn't have a spam-able burst heal.

    Shields are already quite expensive and last only 6 sec, the only problem i have with shields is the magica return of harness magica.

    Fully stacked in weapon damage/stamina, my Vigor has a tooltip of 13146 over 5 seconds, or 2629/second. This is halved in PvP of course and affected further by things like Major/Minor Defile, so expect around 1k/second heals.

    A normal medium armor user doesn't stack into weapon damage/stamina as much as I do, so I'd expect their heals to be closer to 600-700/second.

    Meanwhile, a magicka user can instantly get a shield more than twice the strength of what Vigor returns over 5 seconds.

    So much for "extremely strong heals".


    And dodge rolling being the "best defensive mechanism in the game"?? You have to be kidding me.

    Half the skills in the game ignore dodge roll entirely (all DoTs, Soul Assault, Birds, jbeam etc etc) and it has a stacking 33% modifier to it if you try to spam it. Dodge roll used to be one of the strongest defensive mechanisms - these days it's a joke.


    Not that any of this matters - there's so much damage around that a medium armor stamina build can get instagibbed at any time, even with 7 Impen & 25k+ health - whatever heal you have going on doesn't matter when CC+frag+curse+execute land at the same time.

    The healing can be buffed with with a lot minor/major buffs, it can crit and health you get back is more worth than a shield since it has resistance and can be blocked, that is why burst heals are so extrem strong.

    Still dodge rolling is still 100% damage mitigation against most skills (some skills are imo bad designed that they are not dodge able).

    Shield is the defensive mechanism of mag chars they don't have so many ways to avoid the damage and basically have to face tank it with using shields.

    Also if a medium armor build gets 1shoted by something because he didn't doge/block it will also 1shot mag players who forgot to shield since they have lower resistances.
    Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
    - Update 23
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    The hoops people will jump through to defend their easy mode sorc.....
  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    ✭✭✭✭
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.

    A Sorc that spams Hardened Ward non stop is a) not attacking, b) out of Magicka very soon, and c) walking AP at least in noCP. Hardened Ward in noCP is around 7 to 12k. If you really push it with stacking mag and sacrificing abilities maybe 15k. That may seem much, but again - it's the only thing between our light armor and being dead. I get that people just want to one shot everything. But that's not healthy design.

    Also that vigor heals for 11k over 5 seconds while you roll dodge, have shuffle on and possibly a rally heal incoming. Don't try to claim vigor is your only defense. Shields are.

    And a stamina build that spams Vigor or Rally is only wasting his/her resources.

    Yet, those heals you can cast only once every 5 seconds to get any benefit from are the only thing between medium armor and being dead (yes, I'm using your words) - because like it or not dodge roll (which you also can't spam) only prevents maybe half the damage (not even that vs wardens, whose direct damage is also undodgeable) in the game.

    And shields aren't your only defense, you also have twilight pet to heal you and/or resto staff off bar.


    Atleast try to remain factual please.
    Biro123 wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.

    That would be because you're not giving a particularly balanced view..

    You have armour, you block - so the damage done to you is reduced, so vigour has less 'work' to do to make up for the damage you actually take. Shields take the full hit.
    Also do shields help you recover from oblivion damage? Does Vigour?

    Simple fact is that they are very different mechanics - and should stay that way. The worst thing Zos could do is to turn shields into a 'pre-heal' with all the same strengths and weaknesses as heals.. Game needs more diversity not more homogenisation.

    You get 17% mitigation in medium armor - that's not much armor at all. And you sure as hell can't block as a medium armor user and expect to have any stamina left.

    Shields may take the full hit, but they also prevent crits from happening (which can be up to 70-80% damage reduced, compare that to the 17% mitigation).


    What ZOS needs to do is balance the game, nothing else.

    Whether you choose medium over heavy or a roll-dodge build over a block build is your choice. Either gives its own defences to help those ticks along while reducing incoming. Vigour is VERY strong in a heavy-armour, block-focussed build.

    Yes, shields do prevent crits from happening, but can Vigour not also crit itself?

    fwiw, against a GOOD med-armour stamblade, my sorc gets run out of magica while being unable to land a single full burst on him, and his vigour easily takes care of the odd curse that lands. Potatoes don't see that though, they usually don't recognise when to block/dodge the most telegraphed burst in-game, then wonder how their opponent can hit so hard without running out of juice..

    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
    Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
    Aidee - Magsorc - DC
    Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
    Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.
  • Feanor
    Feanor
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    The hoops people will jump through to defend their easy mode sorc.....

    Well then enlighten us how you would design it. Sorcs need to survive with 11k resists in light armour. Elaborate. And please don't forget noCP.
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    The hoops people will jump through to defend their easy mode sorc.....

    Well then enlighten us how you would design it. Sorcs need to survive with 11k resists in light armour. Elaborate. And please don't forget noCP.

    1 or 2 of the below depending

    Either tone down shields to 6-8 seconds (like every other class) or tone down frags big time.

    And

    Dark conversion needs to be reworked so that it's more of an overtime return. The skill should be proactive and not reactive.
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    Feanor wrote: »
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    The hoops people will jump through to defend their easy mode sorc.....

    Well then enlighten us how you would design it. Sorcs need to survive with 11k resists in light armour. Elaborate. And please don't forget noCP.

    Nobody plays no CP cyrodil as evidence by the low populations. So why do you make this no CP request?
  • Biro123
    Biro123
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    The hoops people will jump through to defend their easy mode sorc.....

    Well then enlighten us how you would design it. Sorcs need to survive with 11k resists in light armour. Elaborate. And please don't forget noCP.

    1 or 2 of the below depending

    Either tone down shields to 6-8 seconds (like every other class) or tone down frags big time.

    And

    Dark conversion needs to be reworked so that it's more of an overtime return. The skill should be proactive and not reactive.

    Err.. I'm not sure how to say this.

    Shields are already 6 seconds.

    Frags has just been toned down by 10% If you still want more, just install Miat's - they'll never hit you again.

    Dark Conversion has also just been nerfed with an added 0.4 seconds to its cast time.. Doesn't sound much - but just try using it in combat!
    Minalan owes me a beer.

    PC EU Megaserver
    Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
    Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
    Aidee - Magsorc - DC
    Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
    Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    Magdalina wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    Just for the sake of the argument, shields do not mitigate all damage. Shields mitigate as much raw(no crits, but no spell/physical resist either) damage as a shield has points. 10k shield will mitigate 10k damage. If you're hit by 2 10k attacks at the same time while having a shield up, the second 10k will land right home. If you roll dodge these 2 attacks you will avoid both - if they're dodgeable. And I do feel they should cut the undodgeable unblockable crap, removing counterplay is just silly.

    Now if you're being attacked by several people at once and are being hit with 5+ attacks at once...yeah...somehow dodging seems a lot more fascinating all of a sudden.
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh, I don't have a problem with shield stacking. I have a problem with the strength level of each individual shield.

    1K magicka gives you roughly 500 points to shield strength (Harness or Dampen Magic) without counting any modifiers to that 1K magicka (of which there are plenty for magicka).
    1K stamina gives you 37 health/second (or 185 health over 5 seconds) to Resolving Vigor.

    Can you honestly claim this is balanced?
    .

    Just curious - how does Vigor scale with weapon damage and crit? Admittedly I don't play stamina. I can tell you that shields ignore spelldamage fully and completely though(and they obviously can't crit) however. You've only mention half of the equation, let's bring out the other half too.

    Well, 100 weapon damage would give you around the same benefit as 1k stamina, 37 health/second. But remember that you don't get both when choosing your set bonuses, so it doesn't really change anything.

    Simply put: one magicka set bonus>one stamina (or weapon dmg) set bonus when it comes to its effect on defensive skills available. And not by a small margin, but by a rather gross one (if you look at the numbers).


    As for crit, that obviously varies. In my case (stacked on weapon dmg/stamina to even get to my 13146 tooltip), I've only got a 39.4% crit chance (with Minor Savagery from NB passive). That means 39.4% chance my Vigor ticks heal for 2,271 (with my .7278 crit modifier from CPs, passives etc), assuming no Minor/Major Defile is applied.

    That means 2/5 of the ticks on average crit, which equals to an average 8486 damage healed over 5 seconds (assuming no Major/Minor Defile is applied), or an average of 1697 health/second - equivalent of a light attack.
    Edited by DDuke on July 12, 2017 4:20PM
  • Feanor
    Feanor
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    1) Sotha Sil Population on PC EU disagrees. It's pop locked on 3 alliances every evening.
    2) BGs are no CP
    3) Hardened Ward is 6 seconds, as well has harness Magicka, only Empowered Ward is 10 seconds, but weaker instead.
    4) Frags and Conversion have nothing to do with shields.

    Try again.
    Edited by Feanor on July 12, 2017 4:19PM
    Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 46 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:
    Necrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar
    All chars 50 @ CP 1700+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.
  • DDuke
    DDuke
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    Biro123 wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.

    A Sorc that spams Hardened Ward non stop is a) not attacking, b) out of Magicka very soon, and c) walking AP at least in noCP. Hardened Ward in noCP is around 7 to 12k. If you really push it with stacking mag and sacrificing abilities maybe 15k. That may seem much, but again - it's the only thing between our light armor and being dead. I get that people just want to one shot everything. But that's not healthy design.

    Also that vigor heals for 11k over 5 seconds while you roll dodge, have shuffle on and possibly a rally heal incoming. Don't try to claim vigor is your only defense. Shields are.

    And a stamina build that spams Vigor or Rally is only wasting his/her resources.

    Yet, those heals you can cast only once every 5 seconds to get any benefit from are the only thing between medium armor and being dead (yes, I'm using your words) - because like it or not dodge roll (which you also can't spam) only prevents maybe half the damage (not even that vs wardens, whose direct damage is also undodgeable) in the game.

    And shields aren't your only defense, you also have twilight pet to heal you and/or resto staff off bar.


    Atleast try to remain factual please.
    Biro123 wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    These suggestions are so bad I don't know if you're trolling or if you think that would be balanced.

    I could maybe get behind shortening the pre execute of endless fury. It would reduce burst, and timing burst is already not easy. Because that super frag proc you mentioned is a projectile that's one of the easiest to avoid if you're not a) close range or b) the target is occupied elsewhere and inattentive. Also the bonus damage was already reduced by 10% last patches.

    Nerfing curse again would take away burst. Burst you successfully have to line up over 3 abilities. Compare that to stam burst through set pieces or the infamous Incap -> SA.

    Finally, shields. Hardened Ward is not cheap. I'd have to look up the exact numbers but it costs around 2100 mag IIRC on my Sorc. Harness Magicka clocks in at around 2900 or something. You want to double that. Have fun playing on a noCP campaign with 35k total Magicka when one of you shields costs 4 to 6k.

    It would be better to just delete the class on that case.

    If Hardened Ward isn't cheap, then why can people still spam them non-stop even without going full into sustain gear?

    And why does it instantly shield you from twice the damage that Vigor (which, btw, costs more than Hardened Ward) heals over 5 seconds?


    These are balance issues, like it or not.

    That would be because you're not giving a particularly balanced view..

    You have armour, you block - so the damage done to you is reduced, so vigour has less 'work' to do to make up for the damage you actually take. Shields take the full hit.
    Also do shields help you recover from oblivion damage? Does Vigour?

    Simple fact is that they are very different mechanics - and should stay that way. The worst thing Zos could do is to turn shields into a 'pre-heal' with all the same strengths and weaknesses as heals.. Game needs more diversity not more homogenisation.

    You get 17% mitigation in medium armor - that's not much armor at all. And you sure as hell can't block as a medium armor user and expect to have any stamina left.

    Shields may take the full hit, but they also prevent crits from happening (which can be up to 70-80% damage reduced, compare that to the 17% mitigation).


    What ZOS needs to do is balance the game, nothing else.

    Whether you choose medium over heavy or a roll-dodge build over a block build is your choice. Either gives its own defences to help those ticks along while reducing incoming. Vigour is VERY strong in a heavy-armour, block-focussed build.

    Yes, shields do prevent crits from happening, but can Vigour not also crit itself?

    fwiw, against a GOOD med-armour stamblade, my sorc gets run out of magica while being unable to land a single full burst on him, and his vigour easily takes care of the odd curse that lands. Potatoes don't see that though, they usually don't recognise when to block/dodge the most telegraphed burst in-game, then wonder how their opponent can hit so hard without running out of juice..

    I factored in critical strikes in my above reply, take a look.

    I'm not going to defend heavy armor "tank" builds that somehow also deal same, if not more damage than medium armor builds. Those also need to be nerfed to the ground.


    If you lost to a medium armor stamblade on your magicka sorcerer in the current patch or PTS, then I regret to inform you that there is something seriously wrong with your build or in the manner you play your sorcerer.


    Medium armor right now is borderline unplayable for anything other than PvE & ganking noobs with proc sets, take it from someone who has played a medium armor stamblade since the beta of this game and been there for its ups & downs during the course of the game's development.
    Edited by DDuke on July 12, 2017 4:24PM
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    Biro123 wrote: »
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    Feanor wrote: »
    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    The hoops people will jump through to defend their easy mode sorc.....

    Well then enlighten us how you would design it. Sorcs need to survive with 11k resists in light armour. Elaborate. And please don't forget noCP.

    1 or 2 of the below depending

    Either tone down shields to 6-8 seconds (like every other class) or tone down frags big time.

    And

    Dark conversion needs to be reworked so that it's more of an overtime return. The skill should be proactive and not reactive.

    Err.. I'm not sure how to say this.

    Shields are already 6 seconds.

    Frags has just been toned down by 10% If you still want more, just install Miat's - they'll never hit you again.

    Dark Conversion has also just been nerfed with an added 0.4 seconds to its cast time.. Doesn't sound much - but just try using it in combat!

    The population has spoken. People prefer CP over non CP.

    Empowered ward is 10seconds and can be quite powerful with bastion, Also boost magicka recovery. Those 4 extra seconds allows you to preload your defense and go on the offensive. It's just too powerful.

    Frags crit was toned down by 10%. Yeah that's laughable. Name another casting skill that can be insta casted and hits as hard?

    Again dark conversion needs to be an overtime return. It should be a proactive skill not a reactive skill. As it is right now It's like being able to use 2 potions.

    So they absolutely need to tone down dark conversion

    And either..

    Tone down frags or tone down shield

    You shouldn't be able to be that superior offensively and defensively.
  • Joy_Division
    Joy_Division
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    Feanor wrote: »
    DDuke wrote: »
    Why no nerf to magicka sorcs?

    Because whenever something critical of sorcerer is mentioned, the same fanatic forum sorcerers who have never even tried another class show up to defend their pet class with every alternative fact in their arsenal.

    Nobody will deny a discussion based on solid arguments. The overwhelming majority of nerf Sorc whining is just having a nerf for the nerfs sake though. That's why people don't come up with a viable alternative. Take shield stacking, the forum poster child for perceived Sorc issues. Ok, take away shield stacking. What defensive mechanism would you give to Sorcs instead? Here is your chance at making a well rounded argument. I will be surprised if you get it done.

    Oh may I chime in then?

    Reduce the proc time of Mage's Fury to 2 seconds rather than 4. This way when someone gets auto-executed it's done a little more aggressively. Rather than the set it, and forget it style that we currently have.

    Nerf haunting curse's damage by 30%, and replace Daedric Prey with the original Vicious Curse with no damage nerf. They'll nerf rearming trap's damage by 30% because it goes off twice, but not this? A bit inconsistent.

    There needs to be no bonus damage given to proc'd Crystal frag. It hits VERY hard, it costs half as much, it CCs, and it's instant; there's no need for bonus damage.

    A change to damage shields:

    They need to get a huge cost increase. Blocking stops stam regen, and you lose a chunk of stamina every half second while blocking an aggressor. And it mitigates 50% of damage received against almost every attack in the game.

    Dodge rolling mitigates all damage from an ever decreasing list of abilities that can actually be dodged in this game; however it gets a 33% increase in cost penalty for repeat uses with 4 seconds of the previous dodge roll

    Damage shields, like dodge rolling mitigate all damage. However unlock dodge rolling it can actually work against every ability in the game (bleed damage being an exception). And unlike blocking, and dodge rolling damage shields continue to work even while CC'd. Yet they are the least punishing on your resources out of the 3 defense mechanics. This is incredibly unbalanced, and therefore they need to be much more expensive. Doubling the cost might actually be a balanced increase. Especially considering how much easier it is to manage resources when playing magicka in comparison to stamina.

    This is just gutting the class with nerfs. This is not the well rounded argument the poster you responded asked for because you do not take into account sorcerer weakness or that it is designed around burst and just overstate their primary means of defense.

    NBs and Sorcs are built around burst; its OK that both are strong in this respect. You just want to nerf the sorc burst (but not NB) without making them any better at the sustain-constant DPS route that say a DK would go, which sorcs aren't very good at because the class has no spammable, it's DoT is all or nothing, and the class is terrible at holding it's ground to ensure that constant pressure is maintained.

    As far as damage shields go, it's not as simple as you make it out to be (aside from ignoring oblivion damage and the CP star that adds damage to shields). If your stam rolly polly dodges a templar javelin, that attack - and most others - is completely avoided with the added benefited that nothing in the game prevents you from moving quickly in the direction you want to go (with the added benefited of root immunity now). When a sorc shields, they are hit by the javelin - and all the other skills your rolly polly avoided - and must suffer that CC effect (as well as any other accompany debuffs from it and the other skills).

    Ask any one who spends time playing a sorc instead of lobbying on the forums to get them nerfed, they will explain that shields are not the end all be all super duper OP defense that you think they are. Shield stacking is indeed very strong in a 1v1, in the hands of a skilled player maybe the strongest form of defense in the game aside from a dedicated block build in a 1v1 situation. But these shields must be restacked and any skillful opponent will time their CC near the end of the 6 seconds and burst down the all too common no impen wearing sorcs. Sorcerers are extremely susceptible to CC attacks and debuffs because their defense does nothing to prevent them unlike blockers, dodgers, and templar healers. Also, while shields are strong 1v1, they are not Vs. multiple attackers. Shields have weaknesses.

    I do feel that sorcs are "easy" in that an inexperienced player will probably have more success and kill more players on them than on the other three classes. But "easy" does not mean overpowered; it just means their potential is more accessible. That's not a reason to slam the class with nerfs while still keeping its weaknesses, which is what you are advocating.

    Edited by Joy_Division on July 12, 2017 4:53PM
  • Drdeath20
    Drdeath20
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    It's the combination of the 4
    1. Great burst that does not rely on proc sets

    2. A shield that when paired with bastion CP allows you to preload your defense

    3. Being able to easily streak across hard to navigate gaps

    4. Dark conversion being able to a reactionary and instant skill (acting like a strong 2nd potion) rather than being an overtime and proactive skill.
  • Zer0oo
    Zer0oo
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    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    It's the combination of the 4
    1. Great burst that does not rely on proc sets

    2. A shield that when paired with bastion CP allows you to preload your defense

    3. Being able to easily streak across hard to navigate gaps

    4. Dark conversion being able to a reactionary and instant skill (acting like a strong 2nd potion) rather than being an overtime and proactive skill.

    I probably shouldn't say something to that since it is either a troll or someone who got destroyed in pvp by a sorc and now hates sorc.
    • That can actually every class it i just easy on a sorc (curse+frag) but also quite predictable
    • Your point? Every mag class has access to a shield and they shield only lasts 6sec
    • What? Yes streak is a awesome skill and the only reason i can still play solo in cyro with my sorc all other magica classes are almost impossible to play in the perm snare and tryhard meta(stam nb are still better for solo in cyro imo). For BG all classes are fine
    • never liked that skill, it has a counter but i really dislike that if you manage to interrupt the caster that it doesn't cost them stam(mag for the other morph)
    Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus
    - Update 23
  • Biro123
    Biro123
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    Drdeath20 wrote: »
    It's the combination of the 4
    1. Great burst that does not rely on proc sets

    2. A shield that when paired with bastion CP allows you to preload your defense

    3. Being able to easily streak across hard to navigate gaps

    4. Dark conversion being able to a reactionary and instant skill (acting like a strong 2nd potion) rather than being an overtime and proactive skill.

    1. Great burst is what they are supposed to do. It is also the most telegraphed burst in game, and takes 4 skill-slots to achieve.
    2. Shields are supposed to be preloaded defence. The downside of this is that casts are often wasted if you do not get attacked. Unlike heals, which you wouldn't cast unless damaged, or blocking which only costs when hit.
    3. Not a biggie. You can still gap-close them
    4. Maybe kind of a pot that can only be used out of combat.. I'd much, much rather it returned over time instead. Please, give it the viper treatment. Let me dark exchange as I'm going into combat so the return happens in combat.

    Minalan owes me a beer.

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