Araxyte wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno If for example the nirnhoned trait ends up significantly out-performing sharpened, could you guys balance them once more so that there's minimal difference? It would be a real shame for people like me that have grinded VMA for our sharpened weapons

MikeyMutz wrote: »

Dont nerf sharpened by that much it's a slap in the face to those who put the time and effort in to get their vma weps in sharp. myself included i feel like if its a nerf it shouldn't be by that much. I personaly think it should remain the BiS by 8%+ with these changed it is looking like its BiS for some occasions and only by like 1-2%. you should not change something thats been the best for so long cause people get that gear and think it will remain best so they gold it out. I played this game on console over a year ago and sharpened was the best back when i played, then i quit for a year 2 months ago i made a pc account and got my shaprned vma weps and golded them out litteraly 4 days ago now im getting told i pretty much wasted my gold and need to refarm vma -.- *** off with that garbage. This change is hurting the players dedicated to aquiring the BiS gear and bandade helping the casuals. I don't mind a nerf but by about 45% is a bit overkill.

Juhasow wrote: »

MikeyMutz wrote: »

Dont nerf sharpened by that much it's a slap in the face to those who put the time and effort in to get their vma weps in sharp. myself included i feel like if its a nerf it shouldn't be by that much. I personaly think it should remain the BiS by 8%+ with these changed it is looking like its BiS for some occasions and only by like 1-2%. you should not change something thats been the best for so long cause people get that gear and think it will remain best so they gold it out. I played this game on console over a year ago and sharpened was the best back when i played, then i quit for a year 2 months ago i made a pc account and got my shaprned vma weps and golded them out litteraly 4 days ago now im getting told i pretty much wasted my gold and need to refarm vma -.- *** off with that garbage. This change is hurting the players dedicated to aquiring the BiS gear and bandade helping the casuals. I don't mind a nerf but by about 45% is a bit overkill.

Wait....whaaat ? So You dont want to have things ballanced because You golded out something that is broken and overperforming by a mile ? So fact You used materials worth max 100k which You can make easily in hour is enough for You to stop game changes and ballancing things despite the fact sharp still will be one of the stronger if not the strongest trait ?

Where is LOL button when it's needed ?...

Also if You're player "dedicated to aquiring BiS gear" then You should be happy if things are changing so You'll be able to dedicate to that again

Chori wrote: »

Man.... was looking for something to pull me back into the game but you guys just keep hitting on the people who spent a lot of time grinding or making money to craft/buy their stuff.

If penetration was the issue, you could tweak something else to reduce the damage OR increase damage mitigation and not *** over people who spent a lot of time grinding everywhere.

Then you and other people wonder why veteran players and why some good players leave your game. I know this is a first PTS patch but seriously who daf comes up with these ideas yo?

Azramel wrote: »

I like a lot of what I see, especially the buffs to mundus stones and weapon trait and proc set revision. Although, when I heard you guys were changing proc sets and buffing some, I was hoping you would buff the crappy ones from Imperial City DLC. (Sheer Venom and Overwhelming) I farmed 4 days in ICP for sheer venom, and when I finally got all my pieces and tested it, I took it off almost immediately. So underpowered. I see viper is now a dot, I hope it doesn't become a joke like sheer venom.

maboleth wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

@maboleth your and your allies aoe abilities will be invisible unless they provide a synargy. DKs standard provides a synargy therefor it will be visible, endless hail does not and will therefore be invisible. At least that's how I understand it. On paper it sounds kind of wonky.

Thanks! I guess, you will see your own AOE abilities, but others will not? PVE only of course.

However, I do wish this was toggleable, rather than switched off by design.

pepe1337 wrote: »

This looks really great and all but nerfing sharpened by nearly half? was that really necessary?

General
In an effort to reduce the visual effect noise in group combat situations, we’ve hidden most visual effects from persistent damaging area of effect abilities cast by your allies. Area of effect abilities that have a synergy, healing, or defensive component that can benefit you will still be visible, and area of effect abilities cast by enemies will also still be visible.
Affected player abilities include the following:
Ash Cloud and its morphs
Path of Darkness and the Twisting Path morph
Volatile Familiar Special Ability
Hurricane
Rune Focus and its morphs
Impaling Shards and its morphs
Volley and its morphs
Wall of Elements and its morphs
Elemental Storm and its morphs
Caltrops and its morphs
Affected Item Set abilities include the following:
Bahraha’s Curse
Essence Thief
Grothdarr
Hand of Mephala
Ilambris
Infernal Guardian
Leeching Plate
Nerien’eth
Sellistrix
Sheer Venom
Storm Knight’s Plate
Thunderbug’s Carapace
Tremorscale
Velidreth
Winterborn

Feanor wrote: »

@BigES

Either you care for BiS because you want a fully optimized character or you don't. @Asayre s estimations show that sharpened is still almost 2 percentage points ahead of infused. So it's still BiS, just not by that ridiculous 12% margin. Farm time is not devalued. You still have the best item.

BigES wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I havent been able to write this since the 1.5 Patch, but I must admit I am impressed with the majority of what I see here.

Anyone bemoaning the nerfs to sharpened and defending is only interested in maintaining their best in slot status and not adding legitimate diversity to the game. I still think since this is all quantified, people like @Asayre will eventually figure out what is best, but at least there does appear to be options and the gap is not quite as large.

Selene's did not need I nerf, I play magicka and never used this and do not have a problem with my opponent's using it. Skoria didn't need a nerf either. I wish the "nerf X" crowd would just be quiet and understand that just because something does not suit their preferred playstyle, doesnt mean it needs a nerf.

I must infer from this patch (and the last year's worth of patches) that ZoS is generally satisfied with classes and skilllines since there have been so few changes in these areas. This is the one respect where I do not agree (although I do think the relative balance between the classes is acceptable).

Most of the other notes I feel represent a solid foundation that can be tweaked enough during the PTS process to improve the game.

Did you want something like this...

Lover(6.1%) > Thief(4.7%) > Shadow(4.4%) > Apprentice(4.41%) > Mage(3.5%)

Damage increase compared to no mundus shown in parenthesis

Thief, Shadow, Apprentice and Mage seem decently balance. The error in my estimates probably makes the variance even smaller but it seems Lover is slightly preferred.

Initial estimates for weapon traits are

Sharpened(6.1%) > Infused(4.8%) > Precise(4.7%) > Nirnhoned(3.5%)

Damage increase compared to no trait shown in parenthesis

Again decently balanced except for Sharpened.

By the way, standardisation of Mundus and Trait values made it such that Sharpened = Lover and Precise = Thief so saved a few calculations there. The 3.5% for Nirnhoned and Mage is a coincidence.

I postulate that Sharpened and Lover are slightly overperforming to make the gap between low coordination and high coordination groups smaller. You would presumably get more debuffs in organised groups thus increasing the likelihood that you reach the penetration cap and no benefiting fully from Sharpened/Lover.

Calculation details

Thank you for the insight. We are fortunate to have folks such as yourself who actually analyze this stuff rather than take the perceptive that since they already farmed an Overpowered BIS item, the status quo should be preserved.

@BigES - All you had to do was something like this.

Ignoring the habitual "everyone's opinion outside of my own is worthless" typical direction. Let's have an honest discussion about this.

@Asayre is a god amongst men. Praise be to him that provides us with all of this knowledge. Seriously, thanks and props for still being around. Been seeing you less and less. (Though you only evaluated damage, which in terms of this discussion the advantage of sharpened probably no longer outweighs the other benefits of nirnhoned in terms of healing, maybe). <- assuming gender is wrong

@Joy_Division you're entitled to your opinion the same way that @BigES is entitled to his. You have some valid points, but that doesn't invalidate everything he said just because you take a dismissive haughty attitude.

Everyone pointed out how OP sharpened was when they made that change. People asked for it to be balanced on the initial PTS and ever since. ZOS did nothing about it, nor did they even comment on it. Therefore people assumed (yeah yeah enter assume joke here) that it was intended to be the most desirable trait. Every MMO I've ever participated in has had at least 1 or two absolute BIS items that are the most coveted available. WoW, Diablo, Destiny, all of them.

So people who care about having their character as powerful as possible spent the time, often hours or days farming these items. You can dismiss these people as stupid or wrong, but their opinion and playstyle is absolutely no less valuable than yours. ZOS could literally take away all weapons and items and a large number of people would still be perfectly fine with their roleplaying and questing. In this particular case however, these people who spent time battling the RNG gods (despite pleading for a token system or at least not having training drop on end game gear) have, in-arguably, a sizable investment in the game. This is often rewarding for ZOS, as these people who feel this level of commitment are also more likely to invest actual money in the game. So an argument could be made that their desires maybe should outweigh the player who shows up every month or so. But that's a different and subjective discussion.

What doesn't happen in those other MMO's is massive, sweeping changes irrespective of community input or discussion. Say what you want about Blizzard, but they are transparent as hell about that stuff. That's the overall complaint that I see on these forums and in my discussions with my guildmates. Some people want their character to be maxed. That's actually not that uncommon, despite the number of people making sweeping comments about them being the minority without any proof. These players get tired of having to completely redo a build, or refarm 2 year old content (that they spent hours/days in) to get an item that may be rendered completely useless 3 months from now at the whims of the combat team who operate in a complete black box. After a certain point, it becomes disheartening. I know three players who have spent hundreds, if not over a thousand dollars on this game, who unsubbed after reading the patch notes yesterday, because they're tired of farming instead of doing the content they enjoy (battlegrounds and cyrodiil).

Yes, MMOs change. Balance changes happen. BiS changes (usually very gradually, and the item itself usually doesn't, its level just does) over time. What doesn't happen in those games is the community pointing out that something is way overpowered, the dev team leaves it alone for over a year while ignoring all feedback, and then nerf it massively. (Before you come at me for being a min/maxer, my build hasn't changed since Thieves Guild and its still hella powerful).

TLDR: The issue expressed by @BigES and many others that is being dismissed out of hand with a haughty attitude can largely be boiled down to perpetual frustration with ZOS, which is they don't actually communicate with us. Key word is communicate, which is a two way transfer of information. If they'd keep an open dialogue about stuff like trait performance, people wouldn't be caught off guard having invested a million gold or so for sharpened war maiden swords, which came out on console almost a month ago exactly.

Again, this isn't an issue for me personally. But just because you have a different playstyle than someone else doesn't mean their complaint is invalid.

@SwaminoNowlino

A couple of things here.

If people assume - your word - that ZoS intended for something to be BiS without any evidence or source from ZoS that is their fault. Given the large discrepancies in power among gear sets, morph choices and the fact they ZoS keeps trying to buff stuff like Maw of the Guardian and Templar skill like Healing ritual to make them useful or desirable and they continually fail to do something makes anything ZoS intends highly suspect to begin with.

You are going to call me out for being having a "dismissive haughty attitude" while people such as BigES are far more dismissive - without offering any actual evidence, says the game is on the brink of failure, and threatens to quit if he doesn't get his way ... and you're writing an essay how I should be more understanding of his grievances? I have written many posts on these forums in which the issues I raise examine ALL sides of an issue and the proposals I come up with attempt to satisfy ALL parties. I think I have amply demonstrated that I am understanding of perspectives not my own thank you very much.

I do not dismiss people who farm for hours a day for BiS gear as stupid or wrong. I do question their motivation when they come onto these forums, threaten to maintain the status quo or quit with ZERO analysis. That is the worst form of feedback. It's baseless speculation that is selfishly motivated. Such posts deserve to be called out, especially since this patch ZoS at least made an effort to re-balance this stuff without a sweeping nerf. If sharpened is indeed trash, then demonstrate that with proof, evidence, gameplay footage, math, DPS parses, something. That standard is not asking to much and holding people to it is not dismissing them as stupid or wrong.

Every time I had an issue with ZoS changes, I have always demonstrated with evidence why I think their changes are short sighted or will negatively effect balance. Always, with math, screenshots, DPS parses, videos, quotes form developers.

I'll just continue to dismiss your personal attacks because its clear you want a directed and constructive conversation.

Its fine if you want to question my motives. But I think I've been pretty transparent. I invested a lot of time farming several gear sets for traits that optimized my build. I weighed the cost of my time compared to the benefit I would receive from getting that optimal item. This is pretty straightforward cost-benefit analysis.

Now the benefit side of the equation has suddenly changed. Precise, Infused, Sharpened... they marginally equivalent. If it were like this, and I just picked up Morrowind, sweet! But how many new players do you think actually give a damn about this optimization stuff? Maybe a few. But probably not many. How many long-term players care about their time investment now becoming an irrelevant decision? Probably a lot. Maybe I'm wrong. I know what camp I'm in. And I know what camp several other posters in this thread are in. But their opinions are selfishly motivated, right? And you're here to save us from our opinions.

RE: the game hemorrhaging players. Sure, I guess I'm speculating. Maybe the game is a thriving metropolis and is growing exponentially by the minute.

All I and others are saying is to actually test this stuff before you say the patch is trash and threaten to quit because what you have acquired is not viable.

If sharpened is trash and your build i ruined to the point it's not viable, than that certainly is a legitimate complaint - I too have all my sharpened stuff golden Sharpened should not be nerfed to the point where its not possible to have a best DPS with it.

But show us this with evidence, DPS parses, math, something.

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.