PTS Patch Notes v3.1.0

Joy_Division

BigES wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I havent been able to write this since the 1.5 Patch, but I must admit I am impressed with the majority of what I see here.

Anyone bemoaning the nerfs to sharpened and defending is only interested in maintaining their best in slot status and not adding legitimate diversity to the game. I still think since this is all quantified, people like @Asayre will eventually figure out what is best, but at least there does appear to be options and the gap is not quite as large.

Selene's did not need I nerf, I play magicka and never used this and do not have a problem with my opponent's using it. Skoria didn't need a nerf either. I wish the "nerf X" crowd would just be quiet and understand that just because something does not suit their preferred playstyle, doesnt mean it needs a nerf.

I must infer from this patch (and the last year's worth of patches) that ZoS is generally satisfied with classes and skilllines since there have been so few changes in these areas. This is the one respect where I do not agree (although I do think the relative balance between the classes is acceptable).

Most of the other notes I feel represent a solid foundation that can be tweaked enough during the PTS process to improve the game.

Did you want something like this...

Lover(6.1%) > Thief(4.7%) > Shadow(4.4%) > Apprentice(4.41%) > Mage(3.5%)

Damage increase compared to no mundus shown in parenthesis

Thief, Shadow, Apprentice and Mage seem decently balance. The error in my estimates probably makes the variance even smaller but it seems Lover is slightly preferred.

Initial estimates for weapon traits are

Sharpened(6.1%) > Infused(4.8%) > Precise(4.7%) > Nirnhoned(3.5%)

Damage increase compared to no trait shown in parenthesis

Again decently balanced except for Sharpened.

By the way, standardisation of Mundus and Trait values made it such that Sharpened = Lover and Precise = Thief so saved a few calculations there. The 3.5% for Nirnhoned and Mage is a coincidence.

I postulate that Sharpened and Lover are slightly overperforming to make the gap between low coordination and high coordination groups smaller. You would presumably get more debuffs in organised groups thus increasing the likelihood that you reach the penetration cap and no benefiting fully from Sharpened/Lover.

Calculation details

Thank you for the insight. We are fortunate to have folks such as yourself who actually analyze this stuff rather than take the perceptive that since they already farmed an Overpowered BIS item, the status quo should be preserved.

@BigES - All you had to do was something like this.

Ignoring the habitual "everyone's opinion outside of my own is worthless" typical direction. Let's have an honest discussion about this.

@Asayre is a god amongst men. Praise be to him that provides us with all of this knowledge. Seriously, thanks and props for still being around. Been seeing you less and less. (Though you only evaluated damage, which in terms of this discussion the advantage of sharpened probably no longer outweighs the other benefits of nirnhoned in terms of healing, maybe). <- assuming gender is wrong

@Joy_Division you're entitled to your opinion the same way that @BigES is entitled to his. You have some valid points, but that doesn't invalidate everything he said just because you take a dismissive haughty attitude.

Everyone pointed out how OP sharpened was when they made that change. People asked for it to be balanced on the initial PTS and ever since. ZOS did nothing about it, nor did they even comment on it. Therefore people assumed (yeah yeah enter assume joke here) that it was intended to be the most desirable trait. Every MMO I've ever participated in has had at least 1 or two absolute BIS items that are the most coveted available. WoW, Diablo, Destiny, all of them.

So people who care about having their character as powerful as possible spent the time, often hours or days farming these items. You can dismiss these people as stupid or wrong, but their opinion and playstyle is absolutely no less valuable than yours. ZOS could literally take away all weapons and items and a large number of people would still be perfectly fine with their roleplaying and questing. In this particular case however, these people who spent time battling the RNG gods (despite pleading for a token system or at least not having training drop on end game gear) have, in-arguably, a sizable investment in the game. This is often rewarding for ZOS, as these people who feel this level of commitment are also more likely to invest actual money in the game. So an argument could be made that their desires maybe should outweigh the player who shows up every month or so. But that's a different and subjective discussion.

What doesn't happen in those other MMO's is massive, sweeping changes irrespective of community input or discussion. Say what you want about Blizzard, but they are transparent as hell about that stuff. That's the overall complaint that I see on these forums and in my discussions with my guildmates. Some people want their character to be maxed. That's actually not that uncommon, despite the number of people making sweeping comments about them being the minority without any proof. These players get tired of having to completely redo a build, or refarm 2 year old content (that they spent hours/days in) to get an item that may be rendered completely useless 3 months from now at the whims of the combat team who operate in a complete black box. After a certain point, it becomes disheartening. I know three players who have spent hundreds, if not over a thousand dollars on this game, who unsubbed after reading the patch notes yesterday, because they're tired of farming instead of doing the content they enjoy (battlegrounds and cyrodiil).

Yes, MMOs change. Balance changes happen. BiS changes (usually very gradually, and the item itself usually doesn't, its level just does) over time. What doesn't happen in those games is the community pointing out that something is way overpowered, the dev team leaves it alone for over a year while ignoring all feedback, and then nerf it massively. (Before you come at me for being a min/maxer, my build hasn't changed since Thieves Guild and its still hella powerful).

TLDR: The issue expressed by @BigES and many others that is being dismissed out of hand with a haughty attitude can largely be boiled down to perpetual frustration with ZOS, which is they don't actually communicate with us. Key word is communicate, which is a two way transfer of information. If they'd keep an open dialogue about stuff like trait performance, people wouldn't be caught off guard having invested a million gold or so for sharpened war maiden swords, which came out on console almost a month ago exactly.

Again, this isn't an issue for me personally. But just because you have a different playstyle than someone else doesn't mean their complaint is invalid.

@SwaminoNowlino

A couple of things here.

If people assume - your word - that ZoS intended for something to be BiS without any evidence or source from ZoS that is their fault. Given the large discrepancies in power among gear sets, morph choices and the fact they ZoS keeps trying to buff stuff like Maw of the Guardian and Templar skill like Healing ritual to make them useful or desirable and they continually fail to do something makes anything ZoS intends highly suspect to begin with.

You are going to call me out for being having a "dismissive haughty attitude" while people such as BigES are far more dismissive - without offering any actual evidence, says the game is on the brink of failure, and threatens to quit if he doesn't get his way ... and you're writing an essay how I should be more understanding of his grievances? I have written many posts on these forums in which the issues I raise examine ALL sides of an issue and the proposals I come up with attempt to satisfy ALL parties. I think I have amply demonstrated that I am understanding of perspectives not my own thank you very much.

I do not dismiss people who farm for hours a day for BiS gear as stupid or wrong. I do question their motivation when they come onto these forums, threaten to maintain the status quo or quit with ZERO analysis. That is the worst form of feedback. It's baseless speculation that is selfishly motivated. Such posts deserve to be called out, especially since this patch ZoS at least made an effort to re-balance this stuff without a sweeping nerf. If sharpened is indeed trash, then demonstrate that with proof, evidence, gameplay footage, math, DPS parses, something. That standard is not asking to much and holding people to it is not dismissing them as stupid or wrong.

Every time I had an issue with ZoS changes, I have always demonstrated with evidence why I think their changes are short sighted or will negatively effect balance. Always, with math, screenshots, DPS parses, videos, quotes form developers.

I'll just continue to dismiss your personal attacks because its clear you want a directed and constructive conversation.

Its fine if you want to question my motives. But I think I've been pretty transparent. I invested a lot of time farming several gear sets for traits that optimized my build. I weighed the cost of my time compared to the benefit I would receive from getting that optimal item. This is pretty straightforward cost-benefit analysis.

Now the benefit side of the equation has suddenly changed. Precise, Infused, Sharpened... they marginally equivalent. If it were like this, and I just picked up Morrowind, sweet! But how many new players do you think actually give a damn about this optimization stuff? Maybe a few. But probably not many. How many long-term players care about their time investment now becoming an irrelevant decision? Probably a lot. Maybe I'm wrong. I know what camp I'm in. And I know what camp several other posters in this thread are in. But their opinions are selfishly motivated, right? And you're here to save us from our opinions.

RE: the game hemorrhaging players. Sure, I guess I'm speculating. Maybe the game is a thriving metropolis and is growing exponentially by the minute.

All I and others are saying is to actually test this stuff before you say the patch is trash and threaten to quit because what you have acquired is not viable.

If sharpened is trash and your build i ruined to the point it's not viable, than that certainly is a legitimate complaint - I too have all my sharpened stuff golden Sharpened should not be nerfed to the point where its not possible to have a best DPS with it.

But show us this with evidence, DPS parses, math, something.

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

So what is it that you are asking for? Do you want sharpened to forever be significantly better than all the other traits such that it's sharpened or bust? Why bother having other traits? Why is having no other options a good thing, what is the advantage or appeal? Why do you want to perpetuate the system in place that makes every vMA run which a sharpened X weapon is not obtained a failure, a miserable experience, a waste of time?

Is the answer to these questions really Yes because you and other players have invested a lot of time and materials into acquiring this gear?

How long do you want the gear you invested in to unquestionable trump everything else out there and stagnant the game? Forever? Isn't over a year long enough, especially when what you have will still net you potentially the best DPS?

Like yourself, I farmed my ass off to gold out the gear I was using. Not just weapons, I also use the prismatic defense glyphs on all my PvP gear and I PvP on multiple characters. I'm not asking you or anyone else to do something I am not. I've been using this stuff for over a year too and even after this patch, I'll still be using it because, as Asayre and yourself acknowledge, I can still get top performance from it.

H4RDFOX

Lol. Shield stacking. I noticed just a few days ago that sorcs aren't the only ones shield stacking. I have both dampen magic, and healing ward stacked on my back bar. I survive most of the time. You also have a constellation to counter shields. That might be something to look at. Adapt and overcome.

Beardimus

These changes are very welcome. More build diversity, less commitment to one or two traits and one or two setups.

I'm glad its drastic, slight changes like with Morrowind would not have changed enough.

BigES

Joy_Division wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I havent been able to write this since the 1.5 Patch, but I must admit I am impressed with the majority of what I see here.

Anyone bemoaning the nerfs to sharpened and defending is only interested in maintaining their best in slot status and not adding legitimate diversity to the game. I still think since this is all quantified, people like @Asayre will eventually figure out what is best, but at least there does appear to be options and the gap is not quite as large.

Selene's did not need I nerf, I play magicka and never used this and do not have a problem with my opponent's using it. Skoria didn't need a nerf either. I wish the "nerf X" crowd would just be quiet and understand that just because something does not suit their preferred playstyle, doesnt mean it needs a nerf.

I must infer from this patch (and the last year's worth of patches) that ZoS is generally satisfied with classes and skilllines since there have been so few changes in these areas. This is the one respect where I do not agree (although I do think the relative balance between the classes is acceptable).

Most of the other notes I feel represent a solid foundation that can be tweaked enough during the PTS process to improve the game.

Did you want something like this...

Lover(6.1%) > Thief(4.7%) > Shadow(4.4%) > Apprentice(4.41%) > Mage(3.5%)

Damage increase compared to no mundus shown in parenthesis

Thief, Shadow, Apprentice and Mage seem decently balance. The error in my estimates probably makes the variance even smaller but it seems Lover is slightly preferred.

Initial estimates for weapon traits are

Sharpened(6.1%) > Infused(4.8%) > Precise(4.7%) > Nirnhoned(3.5%)

Damage increase compared to no trait shown in parenthesis

Again decently balanced except for Sharpened.

By the way, standardisation of Mundus and Trait values made it such that Sharpened = Lover and Precise = Thief so saved a few calculations there. The 3.5% for Nirnhoned and Mage is a coincidence.

I postulate that Sharpened and Lover are slightly overperforming to make the gap between low coordination and high coordination groups smaller. You would presumably get more debuffs in organised groups thus increasing the likelihood that you reach the penetration cap and no benefiting fully from Sharpened/Lover.

Calculation details

Thank you for the insight. We are fortunate to have folks such as yourself who actually analyze this stuff rather than take the perceptive that since they already farmed an Overpowered BIS item, the status quo should be preserved.

@BigES - All you had to do was something like this.

Ignoring the habitual "everyone's opinion outside of my own is worthless" typical direction. Let's have an honest discussion about this.

@Asayre is a god amongst men. Praise be to him that provides us with all of this knowledge. Seriously, thanks and props for still being around. Been seeing you less and less. (Though you only evaluated damage, which in terms of this discussion the advantage of sharpened probably no longer outweighs the other benefits of nirnhoned in terms of healing, maybe). <- assuming gender is wrong

@Joy_Division you're entitled to your opinion the same way that @BigES is entitled to his. You have some valid points, but that doesn't invalidate everything he said just because you take a dismissive haughty attitude.

Everyone pointed out how OP sharpened was when they made that change. People asked for it to be balanced on the initial PTS and ever since. ZOS did nothing about it, nor did they even comment on it. Therefore people assumed (yeah yeah enter assume joke here) that it was intended to be the most desirable trait. Every MMO I've ever participated in has had at least 1 or two absolute BIS items that are the most coveted available. WoW, Diablo, Destiny, all of them.

So people who care about having their character as powerful as possible spent the time, often hours or days farming these items. You can dismiss these people as stupid or wrong, but their opinion and playstyle is absolutely no less valuable than yours. ZOS could literally take away all weapons and items and a large number of people would still be perfectly fine with their roleplaying and questing. In this particular case however, these people who spent time battling the RNG gods (despite pleading for a token system or at least not having training drop on end game gear) have, in-arguably, a sizable investment in the game. This is often rewarding for ZOS, as these people who feel this level of commitment are also more likely to invest actual money in the game. So an argument could be made that their desires maybe should outweigh the player who shows up every month or so. But that's a different and subjective discussion.

What doesn't happen in those other MMO's is massive, sweeping changes irrespective of community input or discussion. Say what you want about Blizzard, but they are transparent as hell about that stuff. That's the overall complaint that I see on these forums and in my discussions with my guildmates. Some people want their character to be maxed. That's actually not that uncommon, despite the number of people making sweeping comments about them being the minority without any proof. These players get tired of having to completely redo a build, or refarm 2 year old content (that they spent hours/days in) to get an item that may be rendered completely useless 3 months from now at the whims of the combat team who operate in a complete black box. After a certain point, it becomes disheartening. I know three players who have spent hundreds, if not over a thousand dollars on this game, who unsubbed after reading the patch notes yesterday, because they're tired of farming instead of doing the content they enjoy (battlegrounds and cyrodiil).

Yes, MMOs change. Balance changes happen. BiS changes (usually very gradually, and the item itself usually doesn't, its level just does) over time. What doesn't happen in those games is the community pointing out that something is way overpowered, the dev team leaves it alone for over a year while ignoring all feedback, and then nerf it massively. (Before you come at me for being a min/maxer, my build hasn't changed since Thieves Guild and its still hella powerful).

TLDR: The issue expressed by @BigES and many others that is being dismissed out of hand with a haughty attitude can largely be boiled down to perpetual frustration with ZOS, which is they don't actually communicate with us. Key word is communicate, which is a two way transfer of information. If they'd keep an open dialogue about stuff like trait performance, people wouldn't be caught off guard having invested a million gold or so for sharpened war maiden swords, which came out on console almost a month ago exactly.

Again, this isn't an issue for me personally. But just because you have a different playstyle than someone else doesn't mean their complaint is invalid.

@SwaminoNowlino

A couple of things here.

If people assume - your word - that ZoS intended for something to be BiS without any evidence or source from ZoS that is their fault. Given the large discrepancies in power among gear sets, morph choices and the fact they ZoS keeps trying to buff stuff like Maw of the Guardian and Templar skill like Healing ritual to make them useful or desirable and they continually fail to do something makes anything ZoS intends highly suspect to begin with.

You are going to call me out for being having a "dismissive haughty attitude" while people such as BigES are far more dismissive - without offering any actual evidence, says the game is on the brink of failure, and threatens to quit if he doesn't get his way ... and you're writing an essay how I should be more understanding of his grievances? I have written many posts on these forums in which the issues I raise examine ALL sides of an issue and the proposals I come up with attempt to satisfy ALL parties. I think I have amply demonstrated that I am understanding of perspectives not my own thank you very much.

I do not dismiss people who farm for hours a day for BiS gear as stupid or wrong. I do question their motivation when they come onto these forums, threaten to maintain the status quo or quit with ZERO analysis. That is the worst form of feedback. It's baseless speculation that is selfishly motivated. Such posts deserve to be called out, especially since this patch ZoS at least made an effort to re-balance this stuff without a sweeping nerf. If sharpened is indeed trash, then demonstrate that with proof, evidence, gameplay footage, math, DPS parses, something. That standard is not asking to much and holding people to it is not dismissing them as stupid or wrong.

Every time I had an issue with ZoS changes, I have always demonstrated with evidence why I think their changes are short sighted or will negatively effect balance. Always, with math, screenshots, DPS parses, videos, quotes form developers.

I'll just continue to dismiss your personal attacks because its clear you want a directed and constructive conversation.

Its fine if you want to question my motives. But I think I've been pretty transparent. I invested a lot of time farming several gear sets for traits that optimized my build. I weighed the cost of my time compared to the benefit I would receive from getting that optimal item. This is pretty straightforward cost-benefit analysis.

Now the benefit side of the equation has suddenly changed. Precise, Infused, Sharpened... they marginally equivalent. If it were like this, and I just picked up Morrowind, sweet! But how many new players do you think actually give a damn about this optimization stuff? Maybe a few. But probably not many. How many long-term players care about their time investment now becoming an irrelevant decision? Probably a lot. Maybe I'm wrong. I know what camp I'm in. And I know what camp several other posters in this thread are in. But their opinions are selfishly motivated, right? And you're here to save us from our opinions.

RE: the game hemorrhaging players. Sure, I guess I'm speculating. Maybe the game is a thriving metropolis and is growing exponentially by the minute.

All I and others are saying is to actually test this stuff before you say the patch is trash and threaten to quit because what you have acquired is not viable.

If sharpened is trash and your build i ruined to the point it's not viable, than that certainly is a legitimate complaint - I too have all my sharpened stuff golden Sharpened should not be nerfed to the point where its not possible to have a best DPS with it.

But show us this with evidence, DPS parses, math, something.

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

So what is it that you are asking for? Do you want sharpened to forever be significantly better than all the other traits such that it's sharpened or bust? Why bother having other traits? Why is having no other options a good thing, what is the advantage or appeal? Why do you want to perpetuate the system in place that makes every vMA run which a sharpened X weapon is not obtained a failure, a miserable experience, a waste of time?

Is the answer to these questions really Yes because you and other players have invested a lot of time and materials into acquiring this gear?

How long do you want the gear you invested in to unquestionable trump everything else out there and stagnant the game? Forever? Isn't over a year long enough, especially when what you have will still net you potentially the best DPS?

Like yourself, I farmed my ass off to gold out the gear I was using. Not just weapons, I also use the prismatic defense glyphs on all my PvP gear and I PvP on multiple characters. I'm not asking you or anyone else to do something I am not. I've been using this stuff for over a year too and even after this patch, I'll still be using it because, as Asayre and yourself acknowledge, I can still get top performance from it.

I think I would be okay with, say, a 20% nerf to sharpened. This in combination with also buffing the other traits should raise the floor and lower the ceiling sufficiently to make sharpened a clear favorite, but perhaps not always the optimal trait under all circumstances (there are already cases where sharpened is not preferred, this would just make those cases more clearly defined).

I also think the developers should institute a token system to make that preferred trait sharpened (or any other desired trait) a more accessible thing (or at least, an obtainable goal - not RNG). Given enough runs with RNG, yes, there is an "expected" amount of runs you could do to get a sharpened item. But you can still get unlucky. And who knows what their drop rate probabilities are. And people don't care about probabilities. They want to see progress towards the goal (of the item).

This allows others to obtain it more easily, while not making my decision to go sharpened for over a year a moot point.

Kilandros

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Bladerunner1

I don't think the change to Sharpened is pushing diversity for stamina DDs. Physical pen is still the way to go. Any time there's an option for gear with penetration it's clearly best. The only time this isn't the case is when the DDs have access to a set like Twice Fang Snake, which is BIS now more than ever, so now they can be more open about trying other things like infused or precise.

Weakening sharpened forces Stam DDs to look for another piece of physical pen elsewhere, which decreases diversity if they don't have a full set of TFS.

BigES

Hammy01 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Asayre wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I havent been able to write this since the 1.5 Patch, but I must admit I am impressed with the majority of what I see here.

Anyone bemoaning the nerfs to sharpened and defending is only interested in maintaining their best in slot status and not adding legitimate diversity to the game. I still think since this is all quantified, people like @Asayre will eventually figure out what is best, but at least there does appear to be options and the gap is not quite as large.

Selene's did not need I nerf, I play magicka and never used this and do not have a problem with my opponent's using it. Skoria didn't need a nerf either. I wish the "nerf X" crowd would just be quiet and understand that just because something does not suit their preferred playstyle, doesnt mean it needs a nerf.

I must infer from this patch (and the last year's worth of patches) that ZoS is generally satisfied with classes and skilllines since there have been so few changes in these areas. This is the one respect where I do not agree (although I do think the relative balance between the classes is acceptable).

Most of the other notes I feel represent a solid foundation that can be tweaked enough during the PTS process to improve the game.

Did you want something like this...

Lover(6.1%) > Thief(4.7%) > Shadow(4.4%) > Apprentice(4.41%) > Mage(3.5%)

Damage increase compared to no mundus shown in parenthesis

Thief, Shadow, Apprentice and Mage seem decently balance. The error in my estimates probably makes the variance even smaller but it seems Lover is slightly preferred.

Initial estimates for weapon traits are

Sharpened(6.1%) > Infused(4.8%) > Precise(4.7%) > Nirnhoned(3.5%)

Damage increase compared to no trait shown in parenthesis

Again decently balanced except for Sharpened.

By the way, standardisation of Mundus and Trait values made it such that Sharpened = Lover and Precise = Thief so saved a few calculations there. The 3.5% for Nirnhoned and Mage is a coincidence.

I postulate that Sharpened and Lover are slightly overperforming to make the gap between low coordination and high coordination groups smaller. You would presumably get more debuffs in organised groups thus increasing the likelihood that you reach the penetration cap and no benefiting fully from Sharpened/Lover.

Calculation details

Thank you for the insight. We are fortunate to have folks such as yourself who actually analyze this stuff rather than take the perceptive that since they already farmed an Overpowered BIS item, the status quo should be preserved.

@BigES - All you had to do was something like this.

Ignoring the habitual "everyone's opinion outside of my own is worthless" typical direction. Let's have an honest discussion about this.

@Asayre is a god amongst men. Praise be to him that provides us with all of this knowledge. Seriously, thanks and props for still being around. Been seeing you less and less. (Though you only evaluated damage, which in terms of this discussion the advantage of sharpened probably no longer outweighs the other benefits of nirnhoned in terms of healing, maybe). <- assuming gender is wrong

@Joy_Division you're entitled to your opinion the same way that @BigES is entitled to his. You have some valid points, but that doesn't invalidate everything he said just because you take a dismissive haughty attitude.

Everyone pointed out how OP sharpened was when they made that change. People asked for it to be balanced on the initial PTS and ever since. ZOS did nothing about it, nor did they even comment on it. Therefore people assumed (yeah yeah enter assume joke here) that it was intended to be the most desirable trait. Every MMO I've ever participated in has had at least 1 or two absolute BIS items that are the most coveted available. WoW, Diablo, Destiny, all of them.

So people who care about having their character as powerful as possible spent the time, often hours or days farming these items. You can dismiss these people as stupid or wrong, but their opinion and playstyle is absolutely no less valuable than yours. ZOS could literally take away all weapons and items and a large number of people would still be perfectly fine with their roleplaying and questing. In this particular case however, these people who spent time battling the RNG gods (despite pleading for a token system or at least not having training drop on end game gear) have, in-arguably, a sizable investment in the game. This is often rewarding for ZOS, as these people who feel this level of commitment are also more likely to invest actual money in the game. So an argument could be made that their desires maybe should outweigh the player who shows up every month or so. But that's a different and subjective discussion.

What doesn't happen in those other MMO's is massive, sweeping changes irrespective of community input or discussion. Say what you want about Blizzard, but they are transparent as hell about that stuff. That's the overall complaint that I see on these forums and in my discussions with my guildmates. Some people want their character to be maxed. That's actually not that uncommon, despite the number of people making sweeping comments about them being the minority without any proof. These players get tired of having to completely redo a build, or refarm 2 year old content (that they spent hours/days in) to get an item that may be rendered completely useless 3 months from now at the whims of the combat team who operate in a complete black box. After a certain point, it becomes disheartening. I know three players who have spent hundreds, if not over a thousand dollars on this game, who unsubbed after reading the patch notes yesterday, because they're tired of farming instead of doing the content they enjoy (battlegrounds and cyrodiil).

Yes, MMOs change. Balance changes happen. BiS changes (usually very gradually, and the item itself usually doesn't, its level just does) over time. What doesn't happen in those games is the community pointing out that something is way overpowered, the dev team leaves it alone for over a year while ignoring all feedback, and then nerf it massively. (Before you come at me for being a min/maxer, my build hasn't changed since Thieves Guild and its still hella powerful).

TLDR: The issue expressed by @BigES and many others that is being dismissed out of hand with a haughty attitude can largely be boiled down to perpetual frustration with ZOS, which is they don't actually communicate with us. Key word is communicate, which is a two way transfer of information. If they'd keep an open dialogue about stuff like trait performance, people wouldn't be caught off guard having invested a million gold or so for sharpened war maiden swords, which came out on console almost a month ago exactly.

Again, this isn't an issue for me personally. But just because you have a different playstyle than someone else doesn't mean their complaint is invalid.

@SwaminoNowlino

A couple of things here.

If people assume - your word - that ZoS intended for something to be BiS without any evidence or source from ZoS that is their fault. Given the large discrepancies in power among gear sets, morph choices and the fact they ZoS keeps trying to buff stuff like Maw of the Guardian and Templar skill like Healing ritual to make them useful or desirable and they continually fail to do something makes anything ZoS intends highly suspect to begin with.

You are going to call me out for being having a "dismissive haughty attitude" while people such as BigES are far more dismissive - without offering any actual evidence, says the game is on the brink of failure, and threatens to quit if he doesn't get his way ... and you're writing an essay how I should be more understanding of his grievances? I have written many posts on these forums in which the issues I raise examine ALL sides of an issue and the proposals I come up with attempt to satisfy ALL parties. I think I have amply demonstrated that I am understanding of perspectives not my own thank you very much.

I do not dismiss people who farm for hours a day for BiS gear as stupid or wrong. I do question their motivation when they come onto these forums, threaten to maintain the status quo or quit with ZERO analysis. That is the worst form of feedback. It's baseless speculation that is selfishly motivated. Such posts deserve to be called out, especially since this patch ZoS at least made an effort to re-balance this stuff without a sweeping nerf. If sharpened is indeed trash, then demonstrate that with proof, evidence, gameplay footage, math, DPS parses, something. That standard is not asking to much and holding people to it is not dismissing them as stupid or wrong.

Every time I had an issue with ZoS changes, I have always demonstrated with evidence why I think their changes are short sighted or will negatively effect balance. Always, with math, screenshots, DPS parses, videos, quotes form developers.

I'll just continue to dismiss your personal attacks because its clear you want a directed and constructive conversation.

Its fine if you want to question my motives. But I think I've been pretty transparent. I invested a lot of time farming several gear sets for traits that optimized my build. I weighed the cost of my time compared to the benefit I would receive from getting that optimal item. This is pretty straightforward cost-benefit analysis.

Now the benefit side of the equation has suddenly changed. Precise, Infused, Sharpened... they marginally equivalent. If it were like this, and I just picked up Morrowind, sweet! But how many new players do you think actually give a damn about this optimization stuff? Maybe a few. But probably not many. How many long-term players care about their time investment now becoming an irrelevant decision? Probably a lot. Maybe I'm wrong. I know what camp I'm in. And I know what camp several other posters in this thread are in. But their opinions are selfishly motivated, right? And you're here to save us from our opinions.

RE: the game hemorrhaging players. Sure, I guess I'm speculating. Maybe the game is a thriving metropolis and is growing exponentially by the minute.

All I and others are saying is to actually test this stuff before you say the patch is trash and threaten to quit because what you have acquired is not viable.

If sharpened is trash and your build i ruined to the point it's not viable, than that certainly is a legitimate complaint - I too have all my sharpened stuff golden Sharpened should not be nerfed to the point where its not possible to have a best DPS with it.

But show us this with evidence, DPS parses, math, something.

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

I understand the anger and pain you probably feel about this recent trait change ZOS has made, as I also have several sharpened weapons that I had to farm and or spend lots of money on but ZOS is doing the correct thing with this current re-balance. It's a change that has been needed for a long time now and in doing so it gives the players a little more variety. Yes I am sure there will be players who are wounded by this decision but far more players both old and new will benefit from this change. I would also think that it would help retain new players as they no longer have the daunted task of spending most of their game time farming for sharpened weapons just so they can be competitive.

And that's fine. And if I'm in the minority, then so be it. And if I leave the game because I'm disappointed about the direction the trait rebalances went, then maybe simultaneously 3 more people stick around in my place who otherwise wouldn't have because this new trait system really captured their attention and they like the direction the game is going. Which means the game developers made a great decision for the long-term health of the game.

But its still not going to stop me from posting my opinion on this thread. All I'm providing here is my perspective, and its a perspective shared by several others end-game players I know that are also disappointed and don't post on these forums.

We come on this forum to leave feedback and our opinion for the developers to look at, and rather than leaving it at that, we spend 90% of our time defending ourselves from people with a different opinion, who just want to "call you out" and argue with you about how unfounded and selfish your perspective is.

SwaminoNowlino

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Kilandros

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

SwaminoNowlino

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

Just because you disagree with the analogy, it is logically sound. People invested their time to achieve something the developers clearly determined to be better. It required a significant investment to those folks. Then it was taken away. You can disagree all you want, but they have every right to be annoyed and, just like you'd do if that analogy held true in a job, you'd probably quit.

Or you're one of the ones who despite the opportunity, decided it wasn't worth your time to work for that reward, so you're therefore happy you're being rewarded for it.

Kilandros

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

*Alliance Rank 45.

SwaminoNowlino

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

*Alliance Rank 45.

Good for you XD

I clearly misunderstood. But it did prompt me to recognize that my signature is out of date now too. Have to take that strikeout from my Stamplar that has been there since Orsinium. Stamplar came back with a vengeance.

DisgracefulMind

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

*Alliance Rank 45.

Shh don't tell him it's your alliance rank, let him think you're a puglandros.

NBrookus

This is why I didn't decon my off-trait VMA staves... and I *only* got off-traits. Because stuff changes.

Kilandros wrote: »

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

"Think of the min-maxxers!"

SwaminoNowlino

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

*Alliance Rank 45.

Shh don't tell him it's your alliance rank, let him think you're a puglandros.

I saw a four star sorc the other day with 20k health who didn't know how to use wards. Alliance rank means very little anymore. Beside the point. I'll concede I misunderstood his signature. Doesn't change the legitimacy of the analogy or the illegitimacy of "well its stupid" as a retort.

SwaminoNowlino

NBrookus wrote: »

This is why I didn't decon my off-trait VMA staves... and I *only* got off-traits. Because stuff changes.

Kilandros wrote: »

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

"Think of the min-maxxers!"

Saved all of mine too because after run like 100 I was like, "They have to implement a token system? Right? I mean they have to. No one would subject a fellow human being to this."

Alas, my heart breaks once again haha.

Feanor

NBrookus wrote: »

This is why I didn't decon my off-trait VMA staves... and I *only* got off-traits. Because stuff changes.

Kilandros wrote: »

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

"Think of the min-maxxers!"

Same here. Closest I got was a charged Inferno and a charged lightning. Only thing I ever decon is powered and charged on stam vMA weapons.

OneTrvth

@ZOS_GinaBruno with the trait changes I was checking some of the algorithms in regards of how damage is dispersed. Infused has potential to be Best-In-Slot for Stamina users but there is a slight unbalancing issue. Nirn will be Best-In-Slot but is limited to only crafted sets and minimal drop sets. Can we expect to see Nirnhoned Weapons be placed in the drop pool?

TheNeckerCube

paulsimonps wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

With all the other changes i dare say the most hated proccset in the game (viper) got buffed slightly. Ffs reduce the damage by a fair amount.

How is this a buff? Making it a 4 second DoT instead of instant damage, this can be more easily out healed, and it can be purged. That sounds like a nerf to me, which is great.

Not saying it's a buff or nerf, but this makes me think since the dmg is now a DoT, it will be buffed by both Thaumaturd and Mighty in CP, and each tick will be able to crit.

mzdarsky

Kilandros wrote: »

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.
There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Great Point! Yes, I don't think these people have actually tested out the new traits in PVP, Sharpened is still BiS.
I just put a post up of what my Suggested changes are and I don't really think any of the Traits should be changed from these notes, tests came out pretty well. Feel free to check out my post, would like to hear your thoughts.

Hammy01

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

Just because you disagree with the analogy, it is logically sound. People invested their time to achieve something the developers clearly determined to be better. It required a significant investment to those folks. Then it was taken away. You can disagree all you want, but they have every right to be annoyed and, just like you'd do if that analogy held true in a job, you'd probably quit.

Or you're one of the ones who despite the opportunity, decided it wasn't worth your time to work for that reward, so you're therefore happy you're being rewarded for it.

Your analogy is not that good because in this case "getting sharpened weapons (especially VMA)" is more about luck and RNG. Some people are lucky and get what they want very fast and others no matter how much work they put into it never get their BIS gear. Your analogy is based on purely out working your colleagues.. there is no luck involved.

TheNeckerCube

TheNeckerCube wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

With all the other changes i dare say the most hated proccset in the game (viper) got buffed slightly. Ffs reduce the damage by a fair amount.

How is this a buff? Making it a 4 second DoT instead of instant damage, this can be more easily out healed, and it can be purged. That sounds like a nerf to me, which is great.

Not saying it's a buff or nerf, but this makes me think since the dmg is now a DoT, it will be buffed by both Thaumaturd and Mighty in CP, and each tick will be able to crit.

Just remembered proc sets don't crit -_- oh wells

BigES

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Lord_Eomer

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Not sure how are you scoring each trait yourself and on what parameters.

Healers are suppose to heal not DPS and you are mixing up traits and trying to prove precise and nirn beating sharpen now?

From a DPS perspective damage is key factor comparing other ultility and healing can not be on scale as damagw weights.

Same vice versa goea for tanks with defence and healers with healing.

You totally mix up everything for all roles.

Sharpen is still BIS for DPS

BigES

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Not sure how are you scoring each trait yourself and on what parameters.

Healers are suppose to heal not DPS and you are mixing up traits and trying to prove precise and nirn beating sharpen now?

From a DPS perspective damage is key factor comparing other ultility and healing can not be on scale as damagw weights.

Same vice versa goea for tanks with defence and healers with healing.

You totally mix up everything for all roles.

Sharpen is still BIS for DPS

Have you heard of PvP? Its this pretty sweet game mode in the Elder Scrolls Online. You get to heal, do damage, and receive damage, all at once! You can duel, you can Battlegrounds, you can Cyrodiil.

You should try it out!

Lord_Eomer

BigES wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Not sure how are you scoring each trait yourself and on what parameters.

Healers are suppose to heal not DPS and you are mixing up traits and trying to prove precise and nirn beating sharpen now?

From a DPS perspective damage is key factor comparing other ultility and healing can not be on scale as damagw weights.

Same vice versa goea for tanks with defence and healers with healing.

You totally mix up everything for all roles.

Sharpen is still BIS for DPS

Have you heard of PvP? Its this pretty sweet game mode in the Elder Scrolls Online. You get to heal, do damage, and receive damage, all at once! You can duel, you can Battlegrounds, you can Cyrodiil.

You should try it out!

Have you heard about Battlespirt, it nerf everything to half and over 50% heavy armor builds out there..

SwaminoNowlino

Hammy01 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

Just because you disagree with the analogy, it is logically sound. People invested their time to achieve something the developers clearly determined to be better. It required a significant investment to those folks. Then it was taken away. You can disagree all you want, but they have every right to be annoyed and, just like you'd do if that analogy held true in a job, you'd probably quit.

Or you're one of the ones who despite the opportunity, decided it wasn't worth your time to work for that reward, so you're therefore happy you're being rewarded for it.

Your analogy is not that good because in this case "getting sharpened weapons (especially VMA)" is more about luck and RNG. Some people are lucky and get what they want very fast and others no matter how much work they put into it never get their BIS gear. Your analogy is based on purely out working your colleagues.. there is no luck involved.

While kind of sort of an accurate assessment, it's not the case of RNG so much when you know roughly how many runs it will take to get an item you want. Say you want a single sharpened sword of a single set from a dungeon. Three sets can drop, for simplicity we will limit it to the final boss, and you can calculate how many runs you can expect to make to get one of every item. People do that math and they know what the investment is they're looking at making. You hope to get it on your first run, but its not likely. You can calculate pretty easily how many runs you can expect to have to invest to get that item.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this, because like I said, It doesn't really impact me and I actually kind of like the change. I'm just sick of people dismissing legitimate points or complaints simply because they disagree. @BigES has a point that is as legitimate as anyone else's on the subject. So do all the others complaining about it. If you like it then good. Say you like it. But dismissing someone because they choose to "min-max" and use that as an insult is patently ridiculous. You're ridiculing someone for being willing to invest in an optimal build to get the most out of their character... Why is that bad? If you choose not to play like that, then fine, but that's not grounds to completely throw out an opposing view point. You all praise Asayre (rightly) but what he/she provides is information for min-maxing lol.

Lord_Eomer

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Hammy01 wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

Just because you disagree with the analogy, it is logically sound. People invested their time to achieve something the developers clearly determined to be better. It required a significant investment to those folks. Then it was taken away. You can disagree all you want, but they have every right to be annoyed and, just like you'd do if that analogy held true in a job, you'd probably quit.

Or you're one of the ones who despite the opportunity, decided it wasn't worth your time to work for that reward, so you're therefore happy you're being rewarded for it.

Your analogy is not that good because in this case "getting sharpened weapons (especially VMA)" is more about luck and RNG. Some people are lucky and get what they want very fast and others no matter how much work they put into it never get their BIS gear. Your analogy is based on purely out working your colleagues.. there is no luck involved.

While kind of sort of an accurate assessment, it's not the case of RNG so much when you know roughly how many runs it will take to get an item you want. Say you want a single sharpened sword of a single set from a dungeon. Three sets can drop, for simplicity we will limit it to the final boss, and you can calculate how many runs you can expect to make to get one of every item. People do that math and they know what the investment is they're looking at making. You hope to get it on your first run, but its not likely. You can calculate pretty easily how many runs you can expect to have to invest to get that item.

I don't even know why I'm arguing this, because like I said, It doesn't really impact me and I actually kind of like the change. I'm just sick of people dismissing legitimate points or complaints simply because they disagree. @BigES has a point that is as legitimate as anyone else's on the subject. So do all the others complaining about it. If you like it then good. Say you like it. But dismissing someone because they choose to "min-max" and use that as an insult is patently ridiculous. You're ridiculing someone for being willing to invest in an optimal build to get the most out of their character... Why is that bad? If you choose not to play like that, then fine, but that's not grounds to completely throw out an opposing view point. You all praise Asayre (rightly) but what he/she provides is information for min-maxing lol.

Not sure why writing such big paragraphs,

Let me cut short, after around 300 vma runs still not lighting sharpen and yes i do not have MD lughting harpen or either IA..

RNG is worse you may have this endless grind forever..

Sharpen is still OP but no longer king as was..

elven.were_wolf

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[*]Updated a number of bosses to ensure that they have a chance to drop the same crafting materials or monster trophies that non-boss versions of that monster would normally drop.

Wait. Does this mean you fixed the droprates of regular monsters too? That Crypt Jar that I've been farming for months now has me going insane. I'd be extremely happy if the answer to that was yes. ;D
@ZOS_GinaBruno

Chori

Blairy087 wrote: »

Chori wrote: »

Man.... was looking for something to pull me back into the game but you guys just keep hitting on the people who spent a lot of time grinding or making money to craft/buy their stuff.

If penetration was the issue, you could tweak something else to reduce the damage OR increase damage mitigation and not *** over people who spent a lot of time grinding everywhere.

Then you and other people wonder why veteran players and why some good players leave your game. I know this is a first PTS patch but seriously who daf comes up with these ideas yo?

Wouldn't doing that be the same as what they have done now? Its still reducing how OP sharpened is. Besides sharpened is still BiS just now its not "essential" other traits are able to be used. Its not a bad thing. It might even stop everyone whining about the vma rng.

If the objective was to make diversity exist/have less complaints about RNG in weapon traits they could have buffed the other traits and not tweak what has been the dominant trait and what everybody farmed for over a year and a half you know? I think the way they approached into that was just a hit to what I said players that spent a lot of time into grinding in favor for those who didn't.
This is from the diversity point of view trying not to screw over a lot of the playerbase.

They could have simply inserted a token system like it has been begged for a lonnnnnnnnnnnggggggggggg time also, you know?

Now from the math shown in the forum (given its a first PTS patch and knowing how they pretty much change almost nothing completely relevant from what community suggests), what do you think you will have to do to accomplish the same amount of damage that you currently have?
Like someone mentioned, The Lover will prly be the meta for pvp dps in order to accomplish the type of damage you are doing now. But you don't get to see the rest of the picture because you are too focused on what damage you will lose. What bothers me the most is that I would have to give away even more sustain than what I did at Morrowind patch in order to remain the same and play the playstyle I want, example a mundus stone change.
With no changes to resource poisons I find this extremelly toxic, even more so in noCP.

Keep in mind this is the point of view of someone who was actually looking for a reason to come back to the game in an active way. I don't care if I get flamed or if some people come into the forum all almighty making their opinion seem to be worth more than the rest of the players. The fact that they want someone like me to re-farm stuff or even farm new stuff that I didn't need before and that is actually not new to the game in order to remain competetive both in PvP and PvE, is a straight up slap in my face considering I have spend over 90 days of playtime in each of my main toons.

The changes during Morrowind patch were atrocious to me specially the sustain ones, the game didn't feel fun like before. Specially the heavy attack bow change for the love of god that pissed me off. I don't really see something to pull me back into the game, whether people likes what I think/post in here or not it is still a valid point to some others that think alike at least.