PTS Patch Notes v3.1.0

DisgracefulMind

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

Kilandros wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Joy - I never said sharpened is trash. Please read my posts. I read yours. I'm saying that sharpened is now negligibly equivalent with other traits. That's already been shown. Which is fine, or would be fine, if I were just starting out the game. But I invested a significant amount of time obtaining an item that was a superior, BiS item, for over a year. If I were just starting out the game, with the current rebalance, I wouldn't make that decision. The development team, in the name of balance, has just instantly devalued the investment I made in paying (my time) for a premium item.

Imagine if the development team rebalanced the bonuses you get from moving from a blue item, to a gold item. And you farmed your ass off to get gold materials to gold out EVERYTHING. Then suddenly, the development team decides that the difference between blue and gold is not accessible to everyone, or balanced. And they nerf the difference. Yes. Gold is still better. But they just devalued the incremental difference between the two, and that was a decision factor into you spending the extra time to gold out all our gear. You might not have done that otherwise after the rebalance.

You must be new to MMOs if you think that gear won't be cycled out. Other games do it in a more forceful way, by increasing the level cap so you have to regrind everything. ESO is much gentler, with combat rebalances that shift certain sets and builds in and out of favor and that generally keeps existing builds viable. There have been changes like this every patch, and one would be a fool to think that this would be an exception.

Also, if you're spending all your time grinding out gear, then that begs the question, why do you play? Gear is just something that facilitates someone reaching an end goal of clearing or improving their performance with difficult content. If gear itself is the end and not a means to an end, then you should probably reevaluate your priorities.

So your argument is that I was ignorant to the operation of how an MMORPG works (assume its my first MMO), and I should have known that this would happen (complete knowledge), and I made a poor decision as to the investment of my time by not having the foresight to an inevitable conclusion that they would nerf sharpened (after buffing it - and nerfing nirnhoned, and everything else they did on the last trait rebalance). That's your argument? I simply restated it, because as I read I type it out, its just as ridiculous of a statement as it was when I read it. I want to add that, no, its not my first MMO. I have played several. And no, you cannot blanketly assume every MMORPG is this way, as several are not (Guild Wars is a prime example, and Diablo for the most part was extremely consistent in its optimal setups once the game found relative balance).

Last comment. First, I don't spend all my time grinding out gear. No sure where that left field comment came from. I spent time grinding out the gear that I have (with preferred traits) with an expectation that its an upfront fixed investment that pays in out the long-term. I have the ability to swap on/off numerous sets to test and/or optimize my build as needed. Now I would have to (but won't) farm and gather a slew of other traits but those same gear sets that now are now marginal enough for me to consider.

Sharpened looks like it's still BiS so I don't really understand what the problem is. It's still BiS, it just isn't outperforming all the other traits by such a huge margin. If you grinded out your Sharp VMA weapons like I did then congrats. But if you're like a lot of other people out there who grinded the crap out of VMA and just got crap drops you can now actually be competitive.

There is not a single reasonable argument to oppose these trait changes.

Let's put it in simplistic terms for you. Say your boss told you that if you worked overtime to cover for something for a year, you'd get a significant promotion at the end of the year. It's a title they created just this year and it's clearly far better than any other available to you. So you put in those extra hours and make those sacrifices because the reward for you at the end is worth it. Then after that year, you get your promotion. But then the month after, your boss tells you that position is overpaid, so they're docking its pay and benefits by 55%, and distributing that amongst the workers at your old position. I'd bet you'd be pretty pissed off, right? Same basic philosophy for why those who are pissed at this change feel the way they do.

Again, the nerf doesn't even matter to me personally. But this whole "no reasonable argument" is illogical baloney in an effort to not expend actual thought and analysis into a discussion.

Truly one of the worst analogies I've ever read, thank you.

Thanks for your input, you can't point out a flaw in that logic, but I'm sure your level 45 characters are well invested in the grinding effort. XD

*Alliance Rank 45.

Shh don't tell him it's your alliance rank, let him think you're a puglandros.

I saw a four star sorc the other day with 20k health who didn't know how to use wards. Alliance rank means very little anymore. Beside the point. I'll concede I misunderstood his signature. Doesn't change the legitimacy of the analogy or the illegitimacy of "well its stupid" as a retort.

Kilandros is a friend of mine, and I call him Puglandros, I was just laughing that someone actually thought he was a lowbie pug. Don't take it so seriously.

Juhasow

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

DisgracefulMind

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Not sure how are you scoring each trait yourself and on what parameters.

Healers are suppose to heal not DPS and you are mixing up traits and trying to prove precise and nirn beating sharpen now?

From a DPS perspective damage is key factor comparing other ultility and healing can not be on scale as damagw weights.

Same vice versa goea for tanks with defence and healers with healing.

You totally mix up everything for all roles.

Sharpen is still BIS for DPS

I think you misunderstood what his/her point was. They're showing the amount of uses per trait across the board. So, yes, healers do heal, but things like precise and nirn and powered boost our healing, but they also boost damage. Sharpened does not do anything but strengthen damage, yet is almost the exact level as all other traits now. Yes, Sharpened will have a slight increase to damage over anything else, but it has no other uses. This chart was just showing how limited the uses are for sharpened compared to all the other traits.

And yeah, in PvP, we choose traits that best suit what is most useful all around: healing, damage, and defense. So it will now be very viable to choose something like nirn over sharpened in PvP now.

Lord_Eomer

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Not sure how are you scoring each trait yourself and on what parameters.

Healers are suppose to heal not DPS and you are mixing up traits and trying to prove precise and nirn beating sharpen now?

From a DPS perspective damage is key factor comparing other ultility and healing can not be on scale as damagw weights.

Same vice versa goea for tanks with defence and healers with healing.

You totally mix up everything for all roles.

Sharpen is still BIS for DPS

I think you misunderstood what his/her point was. They're showing the amount of uses per trait across the board. So, yes, healers do heal, but things like precise and nirn and powered boost our healing, but they also boost damage. Sharpened does not do anything but strengthen damage, yet is almost the exact level as all other traits now. Yes, Sharpened will have a slight increase to damage over anything else, but it has no other uses. This chart was just showing how limited the uses are for sharpened compared to all the other traits.

And yeah, in PvP, we choose traits that best suit what is most useful all around: healing, damage, and defense. So it will now be very viable to choose something like nirn over sharpened in PvP now.

Do you know precise is not 5% damage increase? You are contesting for something which is wrong and defending may be because you want sharpen as was!

This may be because you farm this stuff and now not wanted to lose over other choices.

New change will provide diversity to whole bunch of players.

Do you know battlespirit cut everything to half, 2% cut to 1 and these utility for healing is just to look other traits op but infact its not the case. Figures that OP has mention are just some random numbers. You should do your math know before trusring numbers!

From pvp perspective, you still need pentetration for heavy armor. There arr over 50% plsyers still use heavy armor builds..

Its not nirn but sharpen! But again if some choose nirn over sharpen and some smuses sharpen. This is what diversity is not just deciding BIS weapon

In past year, you never realize how other triats were useless and enjoying sharpen as dps king?

LucaBrasi

Enodoc wrote: »

Khrogo1 wrote: »

The Non Vet Grab Bag is BS!! It's a non vet grab bag but not a non vet BG?!?!?!? So don't bother taking ur non vet unless u enjoy getting stomped by vets with max passives and proc sets ect. So *** stupid its a non vet grab bag it shuld only be for NON VETS whut the *** is your problem ZOS!?!?!?! all this change did was make it easier for vets to gear out their low alts new players with no vets no cp will just get their asses kicked! this must have been a wrobel idea its so *** stupid

What? Non-Vet means characters below Level 50. And that's what this queue should do. Are you being matched with Level 50 characters (i.e., Vets) after joining the Non-Vet queue? If so, that's a bug.

yes 3 bg's and in all 3 i was paired with lvl 50 vets of course cp doesn't count but their gear is still vet gear and more then likely golded out and vets have a lot more passives then a non vet character+ monster helms ect. I don't think this is a bug I asked the players they all seemed to think it was fine

WeyounTM

ArgoCye wrote: »

Really good to read these. Most of these changes are awesome. And to all those qqing about sharpened - tough. I did my fair share of farming too but have no issue given the changes I am seeing here. Good job, ZoS.

My thoughts exactly. There are a lot of much needed changes in those Natch Potes. And those are all overshadowed (once again) by a vocal minority that is crying about that one specific nerf to a specific "insert_trait/insert_skill/insert_armor-set".

I personally can't wait for all the juice changes to different aspects of the game. Not the least is the reduced visual clutter goodness. I really hope it will improve performance in group play...

@ZOS_GinaBruno have an awesome from this one ;-)

Banana

Interesting

BigES

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

Sharpened previously nearly 4x stronger than comparable traits in damage. Now minutely above infused, precise and nirnhoned (and below under certain circumstances, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt). Powered offers more healing by a slight magnitude over precise (as far as an expected value based on percent chance to crit - e.g. 2% increased dilluted by a 50% probability compared to 100% probability increase for powered since its a guaranteed value). Both nirnhoned and precise offer utility in terms of healing and damage. Infused offers burst since its a proc which has value, and the utility to determine what you're proc'ing (poison - directly damage, etc.). Precise has burst but not nearly as much as infused, especially in terms of an impenetrable meta. Defending is 100% counter to sharpened in terms of damage resistance/output so it can be equally scaled. The only odd-child in the rankings above is decisive, which I just artribarily gave a rank of 5. I don't think anyone can argue its bottom of the barrel.

So yeah. Lets continue to balance all the traits based on one variable. Damage.

Smart.

DisgracefulMind

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

DisgracefulMind wrote: »

Lord_Dexter wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Not sure how are you scoring each trait yourself and on what parameters.

Healers are suppose to heal not DPS and you are mixing up traits and trying to prove precise and nirn beating sharpen now?

From a DPS perspective damage is key factor comparing other ultility and healing can not be on scale as damagw weights.

Same vice versa goea for tanks with defence and healers with healing.

You totally mix up everything for all roles.

Sharpen is still BIS for DPS

I think you misunderstood what his/her point was. They're showing the amount of uses per trait across the board. So, yes, healers do heal, but things like precise and nirn and powered boost our healing, but they also boost damage. Sharpened does not do anything but strengthen damage, yet is almost the exact level as all other traits now. Yes, Sharpened will have a slight increase to damage over anything else, but it has no other uses. This chart was just showing how limited the uses are for sharpened compared to all the other traits.

And yeah, in PvP, we choose traits that best suit what is most useful all around: healing, damage, and defense. So it will now be very viable to choose something like nirn over sharpened in PvP now.

Do you know precise is not 5% damage increase? You are contesting for something which is wrong and defending may be because you want sharpen as was!

This may be because you farm this stuff and now not wanted to lose over other choices.

New change will provide diversity to whole bunch of players.

Do you know battlespirit cut everything to half, 2% cut to 1 and these utility for healing is just to look other traits op but infact its not the case. Figures that OP has mention are just some random numbers. You should do your math know before trusring numbers!

From pvp perspective, you still need pentetration for heavy armor. There arr over 50% plsyers still use heavy armor builds..

Its not nirn but sharpen! But again if some choose nirn over sharpen and some smuses sharpen. This is what diversity is not just deciding BIS weapon

In past year, you never realize how other triats were useless and enjoying sharpen as dps king?

I'm not even defending sharpened as the "end all" trait. I mainly heal, but you can keep assuming you know anything about me lol.

I literally just said in that post that there will be more diversity in traits because the differences are minimal now. Learn some reading comprehension, gd.

LordSlif

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I agree with you. No math here

Getern

What about resource poisons tho, can they be freaking removed. finally?

SpAEkus

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Screenshots can now be taken at the Character Select and Creation screens, and will save in the same folder as they do when taken in-game.

Thank you for this.

Is there any chance of the next step being added? Can we get a character creation copy system for at least the physical appearance sliders? Without any graduations on the sliders themselves it is still a guess looking at a picture if we have the sliders at the same spot for the appearance we want to copy.

Moltyr

So it's safe to say the bugs/issues now 3 years old will remain untouched. Great job guys!

Juhasow

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

Sharpened previously nearly 4x stronger than comparable traits in damage. Now minutely above infused, precise and nirnhoned (and below under certain circumstances, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt). Powered offers more healing by a slight magnitude over precise (as far as an expected value based on percent chance to crit - e.g. 2% increased dilluted by a 50% probability compared to 100% probability increase for powered since its a guaranteed value). Both nirnhoned and precise offer utility in terms of healing and damage. Infused offers burst since its a proc which has value, and the utility to determine what you're proc'ing (poison - directly damage, etc.). Precise has burst but not nearly as much as infused, especially in terms of an impenetrable meta. Defending is 100% counter to sharpened in terms of damage resistance/output so it can be equally scaled. The only odd-child in the rankings above is decisive, which I just artribarily gave a rank of 5. I don't think anyone can argue its bottom of the barrel.

So yeah. Lets continue to balance all the traits based on one variable. Damage.

Smart.

Hmm so according to fragment when You're saying about "impenetrable meta" I assume You're talking about PvP. In this case Your damage calculations which I think are in some part based on Asayre calculations are failing when You meet low resistances target or someone using damage shields which You should take under consideration. Even in PvE there are scenarios where You're overpenetrating so focusing Your chart only around high resistances scenario is unaccurate.

IlCanis_LupuslI

Please look at eye of the storm again, its getting riridiculous in PvP when Cp 300 are doing 20k+ average damage against heavy armor wears with quick cloak activated

BigES

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

K.

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

Sharpened previously nearly 4x stronger than comparable traits in damage. Now minutely above infused, precise and nirnhoned (and below under certain circumstances, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt). Powered offers more healing by a slight magnitude over precise (as far as an expected value based on percent chance to crit - e.g. 2% increased dilluted by a 50% probability compared to 100% probability increase for powered since its a guaranteed value). Both nirnhoned and precise offer utility in terms of healing and damage. Infused offers burst since its a proc which has value, and the utility to determine what you're proc'ing (poison - directly damage, etc.). Precise has burst but not nearly as much as infused, especially in terms of an impenetrable meta. Defending is 100% counter to sharpened in terms of damage resistance/output so it can be equally scaled. The only odd-child in the rankings above is decisive, which I just artribarily gave a rank of 5. I don't think anyone can argue its bottom of the barrel.

So yeah. Lets continue to balance all the traits based on one variable. Damage.

Smart.

Hmm so according to fragment when You're saying about "impenetrable meta" I assume You're talking about PvP. In this case Your damage calculations which I think are in some part based on Asayre calculations are failing when You meet low resistances target or someone using damage shields which You should take under consideration. Even in PvE there are scenarios where You're overpenetrating so focusing Your chart only around high resistances scenario is unaccurate.

What in the world does Impenetrable have to do with over penetrating in PvE? Mobs don't have critical resistance in PvE. I just lowered the burst score for precise because burst is only a desirable aspect for PvP and has no merit in PvE where long-term damage is the only goal for a DPS trait. Infused offers slightly more burst than Precise would. Sharpened offers no extra burst potential as its a flat line damage increase for targets with sufficient resistances.

Your statement about overpenetrating only supports my conclusion that sharpened is vastly underpowered and is circumstantial in the current update. In cases where you over penetrate or face a shielded target (Asayre uses a standard trial mob's resistance value as a baseline in his calculations and then I believe tweaks that input around a bit to determine the derivation in outputs to get a mean value based on the change in that input - right @Asayre?) sharpened only becomes LESS desired. I mean, to get a completely "accurate" damage assessment in PvE, Asayre would have to know the range of resistances of all the mobs you would encounter in a particular trial, and the frequency or likelihood of running into one of those mobs.

Point being, you're right, sharpened provides no more damage when you over penetrate. Which only supports my conclusion. Which mean my score of 6 in my generic table under those situations isn't even a 6. Its like a 4 or 5. Its less desirable in those situation than Nirnhoned, or Infused, for example. But I assumed for the most part that sharpened will generally provide the most damage under the average situations. But it still loses. Because it offers no more utility other than damage.

I don't see how you can argue this point. Traits offer more than damage. And trait rebalancing needs to consider the full picture for the use of the trait on an item. Not just one aspect. Damage. And specifically, PvE damage seems to be the driving force here.

Juhasow

BigES wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

K.

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

Sharpened previously nearly 4x stronger than comparable traits in damage. Now minutely above infused, precise and nirnhoned (and below under certain circumstances, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt). Powered offers more healing by a slight magnitude over precise (as far as an expected value based on percent chance to crit - e.g. 2% increased dilluted by a 50% probability compared to 100% probability increase for powered since its a guaranteed value). Both nirnhoned and precise offer utility in terms of healing and damage. Infused offers burst since its a proc which has value, and the utility to determine what you're proc'ing (poison - directly damage, etc.). Precise has burst but not nearly as much as infused, especially in terms of an impenetrable meta. Defending is 100% counter to sharpened in terms of damage resistance/output so it can be equally scaled. The only odd-child in the rankings above is decisive, which I just artribarily gave a rank of 5. I don't think anyone can argue its bottom of the barrel.

So yeah. Lets continue to balance all the traits based on one variable. Damage.

Smart.

Hmm so according to fragment when You're saying about "impenetrable meta" I assume You're talking about PvP. In this case Your damage calculations which I think are in some part based on Asayre calculations are failing when You meet low resistances target or someone using damage shields which You should take under consideration. Even in PvE there are scenarios where You're overpenetrating so focusing Your chart only around high resistances scenario is unaccurate.

What in the world does Impenetrable have to do with over penetrating in PvE? Mobs don't have critical resistance in PvE. I just lowered the burst score for precise because burst is only a desirable aspect for PvP and has no merit in PvE where long-term damage is the only goal for a DPS trait. Infused offers slightly more burst than Precise would. Sharpened offers no extra burst potential as its a flat line damage increase for targets with sufficient resistances.

Your statement about overpenetrating only supports my conclusion that sharpened is vastly underpowered and is circumstantial in the current update. In cases where you over penetrate or face a shielded target (Asayre uses a standard trial mob's resistance value as a baseline in his calculations and then I believe tweaks that input around a bit to determine the derivation in outputs to get a mean value based on the change in that input - right @Asayre?) sharpened only becomes LESS desired. I mean, to get a completely "accurate" damage assessment in PvE, Asayre would have to know the range of resistances of all the mobs you would encounter in a particular trial, and the frequency or likelihood of running into one of those mobs.

Point being, you're right, sharpened provides no more damage when you over penetrate. Which only supports my conclusion. Which mean my score of 6 in my generic table under those situations isn't even a 6. Its like a 4 or 5. Its less desirable in those situation than Nirnhoned, or Infused, for example. But I assumed for the most part that sharpened will generally provide the most damage under the average situations. But it still loses. Because it offers no more utility other than damage.

I don't see how you can argue this point. Traits offer more than damage. And trait rebalancing needs to consider the full picture for the use of the trait on an item. Not just one aspect. Damage. And specifically, PvE damage seems to be the driving force here.

Mate You missed the point by a MILE.

BigES

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

K.

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

Sharpened previously nearly 4x stronger than comparable traits in damage. Now minutely above infused, precise and nirnhoned (and below under certain circumstances, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt). Powered offers more healing by a slight magnitude over precise (as far as an expected value based on percent chance to crit - e.g. 2% increased dilluted by a 50% probability compared to 100% probability increase for powered since its a guaranteed value). Both nirnhoned and precise offer utility in terms of healing and damage. Infused offers burst since its a proc which has value, and the utility to determine what you're proc'ing (poison - directly damage, etc.). Precise has burst but not nearly as much as infused, especially in terms of an impenetrable meta. Defending is 100% counter to sharpened in terms of damage resistance/output so it can be equally scaled. The only odd-child in the rankings above is decisive, which I just artribarily gave a rank of 5. I don't think anyone can argue its bottom of the barrel.

So yeah. Lets continue to balance all the traits based on one variable. Damage.

Smart.

Hmm so according to fragment when You're saying about "impenetrable meta" I assume You're talking about PvP. In this case Your damage calculations which I think are in some part based on Asayre calculations are failing when You meet low resistances target or someone using damage shields which You should take under consideration. Even in PvE there are scenarios where You're overpenetrating so focusing Your chart only around high resistances scenario is unaccurate.

What in the world does Impenetrable have to do with over penetrating in PvE? Mobs don't have critical resistance in PvE. I just lowered the burst score for precise because burst is only a desirable aspect for PvP and has no merit in PvE where long-term damage is the only goal for a DPS trait. Infused offers slightly more burst than Precise would. Sharpened offers no extra burst potential as its a flat line damage increase for targets with sufficient resistances.

Your statement about overpenetrating only supports my conclusion that sharpened is vastly underpowered and is circumstantial in the current update. In cases where you over penetrate or face a shielded target (Asayre uses a standard trial mob's resistance value as a baseline in his calculations and then I believe tweaks that input around a bit to determine the derivation in outputs to get a mean value based on the change in that input - right @Asayre?) sharpened only becomes LESS desired. I mean, to get a completely "accurate" damage assessment in PvE, Asayre would have to know the range of resistances of all the mobs you would encounter in a particular trial, and the frequency or likelihood of running into one of those mobs.

Point being, you're right, sharpened provides no more damage when you over penetrate. Which only supports my conclusion. Which mean my score of 6 in my generic table under those situations isn't even a 6. Its like a 4 or 5. Its less desirable in those situation than Nirnhoned, or Infused, for example. But I assumed for the most part that sharpened will generally provide the most damage under the average situations. But it still loses. Because it offers no more utility other than damage.

I don't see how you can argue this point. Traits offer more than damage. And trait rebalancing needs to consider the full picture for the use of the trait on an item. Not just one aspect. Damage. And specifically, PvE damage seems to be the driving force here.

Mate You missed the point by a MILE.

Pseudointellectual

pseu-do-in-tel-lec-tu-al
[soo-doh-in-tl-ek-choo-uh l]

noun

1. a person who pretends an interest in intellectual matters for reasons of status.
2. a person exhibiting intellectual pretensions that have no basis in sound scholarship.

Juhasow

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

K.

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

Juhasow wrote: »

BigES wrote: »

People do realize that traits do more than damage, right?

Are we really going to balance Sharpened to be on par in the damage category with other traits, while allowing those other traits continue to provide other benefits that sharpened does not?

Crude Gantt charts below demonstrate my point.

Um ok so if I would now open Word or Excel and create some chart with random numers I would be able to disprove Your "calculations" ?

I mean is there any math behind this ?

I want you to prove where I'm wrong in those relative rankings.

Go ahead. I'll wait.

No?

Sharpened previously nearly 4x stronger than comparable traits in damage. Now minutely above infused, precise and nirnhoned (and below under certain circumstances, but I gave it the benefit of the doubt). Powered offers more healing by a slight magnitude over precise (as far as an expected value based on percent chance to crit - e.g. 2% increased dilluted by a 50% probability compared to 100% probability increase for powered since its a guaranteed value). Both nirnhoned and precise offer utility in terms of healing and damage. Infused offers burst since its a proc which has value, and the utility to determine what you're proc'ing (poison - directly damage, etc.). Precise has burst but not nearly as much as infused, especially in terms of an impenetrable meta. Defending is 100% counter to sharpened in terms of damage resistance/output so it can be equally scaled. The only odd-child in the rankings above is decisive, which I just artribarily gave a rank of 5. I don't think anyone can argue its bottom of the barrel.

So yeah. Lets continue to balance all the traits based on one variable. Damage.

Smart.

Hmm so according to fragment when You're saying about "impenetrable meta" I assume You're talking about PvP. In this case Your damage calculations which I think are in some part based on Asayre calculations are failing when You meet low resistances target or someone using damage shields which You should take under consideration. Even in PvE there are scenarios where You're overpenetrating so focusing Your chart only around high resistances scenario is unaccurate.

What in the world does Impenetrable have to do with over penetrating in PvE? Mobs don't have critical resistance in PvE. I just lowered the burst score for precise because burst is only a desirable aspect for PvP and has no merit in PvE where long-term damage is the only goal for a DPS trait. Infused offers slightly more burst than Precise would. Sharpened offers no extra burst potential as its a flat line damage increase for targets with sufficient resistances.

Your statement about overpenetrating only supports my conclusion that sharpened is vastly underpowered and is circumstantial in the current update. In cases where you over penetrate or face a shielded target (Asayre uses a standard trial mob's resistance value as a baseline in his calculations and then I believe tweaks that input around a bit to determine the derivation in outputs to get a mean value based on the change in that input - right @Asayre?) sharpened only becomes LESS desired. I mean, to get a completely "accurate" damage assessment in PvE, Asayre would have to know the range of resistances of all the mobs you would encounter in a particular trial, and the frequency or likelihood of running into one of those mobs.

Point being, you're right, sharpened provides no more damage when you over penetrate. Which only supports my conclusion. Which mean my score of 6 in my generic table under those situations isn't even a 6. Its like a 4 or 5. Its less desirable in those situation than Nirnhoned, or Infused, for example. But I assumed for the most part that sharpened will generally provide the most damage under the average situations. But it still loses. Because it offers no more utility other than damage.

I don't see how you can argue this point. Traits offer more than damage. And trait rebalancing needs to consider the full picture for the use of the trait on an item. Not just one aspect. Damage. And specifically, PvE damage seems to be the driving force here.

Mate You missed the point by a MILE.

Pseudointellectual

pseu-do-in-tel-lec-tu-al
[soo-doh-in-tl-ek-choo-uh l]

noun

1. a person who pretends an interest in intellectual matters for reasons of status.
2. a person exhibiting intellectual pretensions that have no basis in sound scholarship.

Sooo You're one of 2 of both at the same time ? Anyway nice to meet You.

subtlezeroub17_ESO

Weren't people asking for traits to be more closer in value? ZoS gives people what they want and still gets complaints lol

Amorpho

Great changes, but once again, no fix to vicecannon and sheer venom (and it's been months!). If u are nerfing viper at least make sure that dot proc sets work properly. Vicecannon and sheer venom not only take us out of stealth every time they proc on reactive armor, but the dot damage is also reflected. PLS FIX IN THIS PATCH! @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

RizzlyBear

Has anyone tested the performance in PTS regarding the change to the "invisible effects"? I wonder if AvA and Trials now will have smooth performance. I'm unable to enjoy those for those reasons.

SilverWF

Instead of nerfing / buffing traits, they were need to decrease bosses defense by 3k (down to 15k from 18k) and boost their HP by ~20%
This only were able to nerf Sharpened and boost another traits.

But now we must deal with this: we lost old Sharpened, but all bosses remained the same. So overall killing time would be increased. All supports lost their Defensive trait, so all supports would be more vulnerable = more chances to fail.
Why ZOS are doing this?

LordSlif

SilverWF wrote: »

Instead of nerfing / buffing traits, they were need to decrease bosses defense by 3k (down to 15k from 18k) and boost their HP by ~20%
This only were able to nerf Sharpened and boost another traits.

But now we must deal with this: we lost old Sharpened, but all bosses remained the same. So overall killing time would be increased. All supports lost their Defensive trait, so all supports would be more vulnerable = more chances to fail.
Why ZOS are doing this?

They want to make a more challenging game

Pawsy

I think the prosperous need more of a buff, maybe 8% increase on the recovery rather than a flat 11 recovery. People have to agree 77 recovery is so bad, it won't do anything.

Well done on the rest of the patch notes, looking good

MattT1988

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Updates for Rolis Hlaalu, the Master Writ Merchant
Rolis Hlaalu's inventory has been updated! His gold furnishing plans have been replaced with new stock, so there is now a new gold quality furnishing plan for each profession available. The previously available recipes are being retired for the time being, though they may show up again at some point in the future in his selection or elsewhere..

Hey @ZOS_GinaBruno I've got an idea.

Instead of removing them from the game why don't you turn these old furnishing recipes into a random gold quality Hlaalu's furnishing document? Maybe make it worth 50 or 100 vouchers? So those of us who haven't collected them all still have a chance to get them. Makes no sense to remove them completely.

SwaminoNowlino

MattT1988 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Updates for Rolis Hlaalu, the Master Writ Merchant
Rolis Hlaalu's inventory has been updated! His gold furnishing plans have been replaced with new stock, so there is now a new gold quality furnishing plan for each profession available. The previously available recipes are being retired for the time being, though they may show up again at some point in the future in his selection or elsewhere..

Hey @ZOS_GinaBruno I've got an idea.

Instead of removing them from the game why don't you turn these old furnishing recipes into a random gold quality Hlaalu's furnishing document? Maybe make it worth 50 or 100 vouchers? So those of us who haven't collected them all still have a chance to get them. Makes no sense to remove them completely.

You should read that as "They will later be added to crown crates."

MattT1988

SwaminoNowlino wrote: »

MattT1988 wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Updates for Rolis Hlaalu, the Master Writ Merchant
Rolis Hlaalu's inventory has been updated! His gold furnishing plans have been replaced with new stock, so there is now a new gold quality furnishing plan for each profession available. The previously available recipes are being retired for the time being, though they may show up again at some point in the future in his selection or elsewhere..

Hey @ZOS_GinaBruno I've got an idea.

Instead of removing them from the game why don't you turn these old furnishing recipes into a random gold quality Hlaalu's furnishing document? Maybe make it worth 50 or 100 vouchers? So those of us who haven't collected them all still have a chance to get them. Makes no sense to remove them completely.

You should read that as "They will later be added to crown crates."

Yeah I thought of that. That's another thing I'm afraid of. Hope not.

Gan Xing

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

• Viper’s String: This Item Set’s proc now deals its damage over 4 seconds instead of dealing it instantly.

It's now called Viper's String
@ZOS_GinaBruno is this a typo?

eirinnpryderi

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel Please give the Khajiit a buff of max resources, they are underperforming badly compared to other races