PTS Feedback Thread for Class Balance

Nox_Noir · April 2017

Upon playing Templar and NB on PTS it seems much worse than I feared.
The CP changes seem reasonable, but the class sustain changes are a complete disaster to PVE.
You're probably going to have to play a heavy attack build to be competitive, and really who wants that? It's slow clunky and boring, especially on staves. I think Build Diversity and the fast paced combat we all love are really suffering from this. These changes look to be achieving the opposite of what ZOS intended. If this stuff goes live like this I'm not even sure I'll want to play this game anymore.

The-Baconator · April 2017

Waffennacht wrote: »

I haven't seen a ganker since Miatt's add-on...

And I'm on Xbox... Lol

Seriously though... They exist still?

If only you were on PS4. I have a preeettty nice build rn. As in I just hit a 29k heavy attack and a 15k surprise on a 340 cp this morning nice.

kendellking_chaosb14_ESO · April 2017

Santa521 wrote: »

i like this patch. now i can run without armor with my dk to get the buffs. for sure i have a resource pool below 26k magicka/stam. gj ZOS dk is worst class now

Mageblade is not hardest hit class this update hands down with zero questions.

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Low cp should be harder to win a fight it's a progress system if everyone was equal 0cp to 601cp the system would be worthless.

So much misinformation here.

•Shields take all the power of every DOT
live and PTS Poison Injection ticks about 700-800 point max against a shield 3-4K without one but shield kill Poison Injection like it's nothing.

•Pirate is way too powerful not to be nerfed 30% less damage for getting hit anyone that believed that set would not be DPS BIS is crazy 30% less damage pop a shield on and well you get way its over performing.

•Medium stamina is so bad is not even funny, Heavy Stamina is way better still plus heavy passives are much better for this heavy attack meta ZeniMax just made.

burglar · April 2017

bodidharma99 wrote: »

my main is a stamblade....not many guild brings nb into trials. The only thing you see in trials are sorc. I dont care about pvp...i hate the pvp in eso. Maybe the battlegrounds will be fun but i only play this game to make trials with my guild. Give some love to the stamNB in pve all the good skills we use are dualwield skills and bow exept for relentless focus and siphoning strike which now as been nerfed so much that is now useless so we use 1 nb skills on 2 bars. NB is dead...give us something so people need us in trials. and put siphoning strike magicka based again so i dont lose stam to build up stam...its stupid

Seems like they are slowly trying to kill off nightblade; I don't know if it's because people complain about stealth so much, or what, but there's definitely a bias against them the past few updates.

I play a magicka nightblade so that I can spam cloak and run around undetected because I enjoy the strategy of getting a kill than the fighting itself. If these changes remove my ability to spam cloak then I will for sure quit, I can't adapt to their changes anymore, lol. It's becoming torture to play. Right now, I'm just waiting to see what the changes turn out to be.

aeowulf · April 2017

in PVE NB count for about 1 in 10 of end game trial players because the class is lacking in the tank, heal and dps departments. It is about to lack further in sustain too making things even worse. This needs reviewing badly unless this is the Zenimax vision for this class, in which case please let us know so we either select a different class or game.

technohic · April 2017

t3hdubzy wrote: »

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Very concerned about eclipse being unbreakable. You can make the game friendly to new and casual players without outright removing counterplay.

Keep in mind that destro mageblade is 100% reflectable. This eclipse change is a direct shot at one of pvp's weakest classes.

You can drop your survivabilty and sustain to protect yourself against this. Your whole mission in pvp will be to dive on the eclipse for your group.

Eclipse is 3 seconds. Pretty much will be go to cloak or heavy attack resto/lightning or melee or lotus fan spam during it for 6 seconds of free CC immunity. Add that to immovable pots and eclipse is still way to situational for a Templar to slot.

Gomumon · April 2017

https://youtu.be/AoZ0jsrArcs

In this video, @Alcast does a side by side comparison of PTS vs live and shows just how bad the nerf to both sustain and damage is. Here are the takeaways:
1. He loses anywhere from 6-10k DPS depending on what his configuration is.
2. Changing just the glyphs made almost no difference.
3. Making a heavy attack build in Morrowind does the best DPS, and likely will be the meta if they don't change more.

As he said, ESO is supposed to be about fast paced action, and forcing us to FREQUENTLY weave heavy attacks considerably slows down the action making playing less exciting.

Alcast · April 2017

Keep in mind guys, I am going to test new setups soon that do not require heavy attacks. But I do not have access to the yet because of Templates. I got already smth working for stamina. Now just have to see difference of damage between that setup + Heavy Attack build.

aeowulf · April 2017

very interesting video from Woeler about the Warden as a tank here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO5gHzQAEes

I hope the devs take note that (as one of the premier ESO tanks) he considers NB, templar and sorc in the "almost useless" category as trial tanks. This is before the incoming nerf to NB and templar which will make them worse than they currently are.

c'mon ZOS... how many people need to tell you this? Isn't this what these forums are for?

actosh · May 2017

They dont care how often we tell them this. To fix nb for trials a tank there needs to be tweaks to the siphoning tree so u can transfer power from enemys to your group like dmg or ressources.

Shades need to add aoe debuff for enemys to make em more usefull as a class skill.

Would be nice if zos would gibe nb tanks more ways to buff/synergize with your group.

Arbitrator · May 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

very interesting video from Woeler about the Warden as a tank here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gO5gHzQAEes

I hope the devs take note that (as one of the premier ESO tanks) he considers NB, templar and sorc in the "almost useless" category as trial tanks. This is before the incoming nerf to NB and templar which will make them worse than they currently are.

c'mon ZOS... how many people need to tell you this? Isn't this what these forums are for?

THIS 100%. Templar tanks have been taking the whole shaft (of their spear of course...) since day 1! Wardens have a healing tree just like Templars, yet they giving Wardens mass group shields that grant Major Resolve and Major Ward to all allies, giving them AoE immobilizes, stuns and snares, massive heals, instant heals that scale off maximum health which is way better than breath of life ever was, AND an AoE pull that teleports enemies to you! Plus you giving them Minor Evasion!

ZOS rework Templars into being good tanks!

usmcjdking · May 2017

DELETE ECLIPSE OR J-BEAM AND BRING BACK BLINDING FLASHES

Uriel_Nocturne · May 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

DELETE ECLIPSE OR J-BEAM AND BRING BACK BLINDING FLASHES

Ummm...

...

...

...

No.

Rockndude · May 2017

@ZOS_GinaBruno

Please reconsider the implications of scaling abilities to player levels instead of max resources or at least consider raising the point higher than 26k max resource before diminishing returns occur. The developer note stated this is a buff if max resource is below 26k and a nerf due to diminishing returns if above 26k. In every circumstance on end game players who have stacked everything into max resource, this is a nerf because is effortless on all damage focused/healing characters to exceed this number. For example, my Altmer and Dunmer magicka sorcerers are sitting around 43k max in pve and around 40k in pvp, stam sorc redguard pve 37k, stam nightblade khajiit pvp 34k max resource, Templar healer using purple gear & glyphs 38k max. What I am getting at is with purple gear and glyphs, 32k stam and 35k magicka are not difficult to achieve. This change allows people who have not put as much time and effort into maxing their character out more able to compete with those who have not.

Can you at least address this a little bit further and explain because the developer notes on this did nothing to explain it.

Thank you.

BigES · May 2017

The issue with Templar Spear Shards is that you took away a reliable CC on a class without solid CC capabilities.

I'm afraid you didn't hear me. The issue with Spear Shards is that it no longer provides a CC.

So your solution is to remove it entirely? And give Luminous more damage? I mean, is this a joke? Are you even listening to the community?

Your "solution" to the Luminous morph just seems like laziness.

waitwhat · May 2017

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Drdeath20 wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Well,stamina was way over performing in PvP. You did a great job ZOS ! I'm so happy with those changes,currently I can't do much in PvP with my 238 cp mag sorc because every other class is so overpowered! Look at those stamina dk! Cyrodiil is so full of them! /lol

Wtf you guys are thinking? You really need to sell those s***ty wardens that much? Reducing sustain is OK but nerfing bone pirate/helping hands/battle roar AND getting away major mending?(yeah even a poison injection tick destroys that 2k shield,so it's like removing it). Any reason to keep playing a class who got EVERYTHING that made it special destroyed?

Hi. You're wrong. PVP more.

Magplar is currently at the top due to heals and destro últ, to say nothing of javelin and flare.

Magsorc right behind with excellent defense (rotate shields with resource gain abilities and reduced ultimate cost.

Magicka rules PVP now. Complaints about stam in pvp are without merit, even if you get one-shot ganked.

Everyclass has heals and can use a destro staff.

@Drdeath20

Completely false.

1) Stamina classes do not have acces to the heals of templars.
2) Templars, currently, vastly outpace all other classes as healers.
3) Stamina classes don't have acces to the detro últ as a credible damage dealer.

See what you did there...not knowing anything about stam?

Since when is Stamina a class?

@Drdeath20

Since the time stamblades, stamDks, and stamplars have been around. So basically, forever.

The larger point here, once we're done mincing words, is that none of the stamina classes have effective access the heals and destro staff abilities you mentioned.

Dude who cares about stamina builds. Every player can switch their character from a stamina build to a magicka build with almost no effort but you cant change a class at all, well unless you want to level from 1-50 again and play the mind numbing story again. Sky shard hunting, levelling a horse, undaunted passives, grinding for armor, caudwells silver and gold etc...

@Drdeath20

I care about stamina builds, and I'm not alone. I don't want to change my race, and doing so shouldn't be required to be effective at an entire class.

"Dude who cares about stamina builds."

Lol, dude who cares about build diversity amirite?

waitwhat · May 2017

Durham wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

clj94104 wrote: »

My general thoughts on class rebalance:

Stamina nightblade and stamina classes in general still have absolutely no chance to get into a serious end game trial for score. They just aren't viable.

PVE Tanks were really hurt by the DK major mending change for Igneous Shield. The buff is obviously gone immediately. This is a completely unnecessary change, even in PVP, when all the other changes that are happening this patch are taken into consideration.

Stamblade will be deadly in PVP tho... They will be hitting about 15% harder....

@Durham

Where in the patch notes are you getting that 15% figure?

25% direct damage -10% from physical damage nerf however .so in PVE you should hit harder since most of your class DPS is DD....... but and this is a big but which I did not test against until after this post ... 25% direct damage resistance applied and guess what you have a night blade nerf in PVP....

@Durham

The math on this isn't that simple given the changes to Ironclad and the new weapon master star.

With the additional mechanisms of direct damage mitigation, we cannot assume a flat 10% buff to physical damage damage, all the more so once we account for the critical damage bonus being removed from stealth attacks. We simply won't "be hitting about 15% harder."

As you said yourself, we "have a nightblade nerf in PvP...."

waitwhat · May 2017

FlyLionel wrote: »

bodidharma99 wrote: »

my main is a stamblade....not many guild brings nb into trials. The only thing you see in trials are sorc. I dont care about pvp...i hate the pvp in eso. Maybe the battlegrounds will be fun but i only play this game to make trials with my guild. Give some love to the stamNB in pve all the good skills we use are dualwield skills and bow exept for relentless focus and siphoning strike which now as been nerfed so much that is now useless so we use 1 nb skills on 2 bars. NB is dead...give us something so people need us in trials. and put siphoning strike magicka based again so i dont lose stam to build up stam...its stupid

I agree. We have many class abilities that have true potential. Power extraction? Literally the only stamina based AOE special to NB alone and guess what? Steel Tornado is by far better. Where is the spice/uniqueness with stam? We have abilities unlocked and accessible to stamina yet it is not shining. No one is going to slot power extraction for brutality in a single target fight. At least stam DK gets an AOE dot with major breach/stam sorc hurricane surge. All I see stamplar good for is utility, other than that they are in the same boat with NB just have higher survivability.

@FlyLionel

Excellent point.

Let us also note that the magicka morph of ALSO provides major brutality, along with major sorcery, and a health return.

The stamina morph just does more damage (but not more than Steel Tornado, as you mentioned), and only gives one of the buffs provided by the magicka morph.

@ZOS_RichLambert What's the point of an ability existing if it isn't uniquely useful?

waitwhat · May 2017

ProbablePaul wrote: »

bodidharma99 wrote: »

my main is a stamblade....not many guild brings nb into trials. The only thing you see in trials are sorc. I dont care about pvp...i hate the pvp in eso. Maybe the battlegrounds will be fun but i only play this game to make trials with my guild. Give some love to the stamNB in pve all the good skills we use are dualwield skills and bow exept for relentless focus and siphoning strike which now as been nerfed so much that is now useless so we use 1 nb skills on 2 bars. NB is dead...give us something so people need us in trials. and put siphoning strike magicka based again so i dont lose stam to build up stam...its stupid

Seems like they are slowly trying to kill off nightblade; I don't know if it's because people complain about stealth so much, or what, but there's definitely a bias against them the past few updates.

I play a magicka nightblade so that I can spam cloak and run around undetected because I enjoy the strategy of getting a kill than the fighting itself. If these changes remove my ability to spam cloak then I will for sure quit, I can't adapt to their changes anymore, lol. It's becoming torture to play. Right now, I'm just waiting to see what the changes turn out to be.

@ProbablePaul

Somebody get Malacath a dagger. We're the new Pariah Folk.

Twohothardware · May 2017

The nerf to Nightblades Siphoning Attacks needs to be completely undone. You didn't nerf the large amount of Stamina and Health Sorcerer's Dark Deal gives back and so you cannot nerf the return on these other class skills either because it gives a HUGE advantage to Stamina Sorc players. The CP changes to sustain was all that was needed in this upcoming patch and NOBODY likes the changes you've made to class sustain abilities.

TipsyDrow · May 2017

Twohothardware wrote: »

The nerf to Nightblades Siphoning Attacks needs to be completely undone. You didn't nerf the large amount of Stamina and Health Sorcerer's Dark Deal gives back and so you cannot nerf the return on these other class skills either because it gives a HUGE advantage to Stamina Sorc players. The CP changes to sustain was all that was needed in this upcoming patch and NOBODY likes the changes you've made to class sustain abilities.

But they want it to feel awesome when you get a dark deal off in combat.

Rockndude · May 2017

Twohothardware wrote: »

The nerf to Nightblades Siphoning Attacks needs to be completely undone. You didn't nerf the large amount of Stamina and Health Sorcerer's Dark Deal gives back and so you cannot nerf the return on these other class skills either because it gives a HUGE advantage to Stamina Sorc players. The CP changes to sustain was all that was needed in this upcoming patch and NOBODY likes the changes you've made to class sustain abilities.

I agree that the cp changes to sustain were all that was needed and nobody likes the changes to class sustain abilities. Scaling off of max level instead of max resources is a joke when it is so easy to get to max level but it takes time and effort to build a good max resource pool farming the right gear, golding it, making gold glyphs for it, getting mage's guild 10 for magicka characters, using skills that boost max resource. If we have to grind farming best in slot gear and gold mats and mages guild, there should be a noticeable difference between those who have and have not done these things.

GawdSB · May 2017

Lol, thats all you got for Sorcs?

Akimbro · May 2017

Class balance...?

aeowulf · May 2017

Twohothardware wrote: »

The nerf to Nightblades Siphoning Attacks needs to be completely undone. You didn't nerf the large amount of Stamina and Health Sorcerer's Dark Deal gives back and so you cannot nerf the return on these other class skills either because it gives a HUGE advantage to Stamina Sorc players. The CP changes to sustain was all that was needed in this upcoming patch and NOBODY likes the changes you've made to class sustain abilities.

This. The changes are completely unfair and are weighted most heavily against the NB where they are loosing a key skill. They account for approximately 1 in 10 of end game trial positions because they have lowest DPS, no trial heal and no trial tank utility for the team. They literally had only sustain and now that has been removed. Sorcs remain untouched in this department whilst retaining a position amongst the top DPS, DK's remain relatively untouched in sustain except for tanks who will mostly suffer from the general changes to block. Templars I know least about but understand they are also hurt by loosing a class specific skill also.

The change to siphoning attacks needs to be undone - it's OK if the devs don't like it in it's current form but it will literally kill off a class that is already struggling for trial spots. When the class gets a complete rework THEN look at it. At the moment it feels like bullying, taking the last sweet away from the smallest kid.

If this change goes live i don't know if i will continue playing. I have been told by my raid leader if the NB siphoning changes go live I will have to switch to DK because they can still permablock. If I don't I loose my spot.

Then there is my regular Thursday night group of RL friends, we are two NB's and two templars - not ideal considering the upcoming changes. We can <just> clear something like vet CoA2 but there is a lot of stress and wipes when doing it and we can't do hard mode yet. These changes WILL make things a lot tougher for us. We are already disscussing different games because of these changes... if any one of us goes, we all do - that's 4 subs and 4 sales of morrowind lost. Not much in the big scheme of things I know but I doubt we are the only ones discussing this.

At the end of the day I can choose what to do with my time, and being in a posistion where I feel bullied is not the place where I want to be.

Weps · May 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

DK's remain relatively untouched in sustain except for tanks who will mostly suffer from the general changes to block.

Eh, what?
Relatively untouched?

They nerfed every single class defining skill that would help DKs keeping their max resource pool filled which was basically the only reason why a stam DK could easily walk around with 600 stamina recovery and outsustain almost everyone.

Tornaad · May 2017

With all of the changes to sustain I am rather concerned about how this will affect our ability to get through things like the Maelstrom Arena.
Also it seems that with the way things currently are (and I fear this will become worse with the new changes) that you need the gear you get from completing the Maelstrom Arena and Veteran level dungeons to be able to successfully complete them which says that something is seriously out of balance and that something looks like it is only going to become worse with the new changes.

I hope I am wrong. I have not managed to get through a single Veteran level dungeon, and after several hundred hours of game play finally worked up the courage to try for the Maelstrom Arena only to find I had a class that is considered the hardest one to take through the Maelstrom Arena (Stamina Nightblade) and did not have anywhere near the proper equipment.

After digging into several online guides I found that the Magica Sorcerer is the best one to take through the Maelstrom Arena and even found a guide on how to build your character. I could not find a single guide to get help on how to get a Stamina Nightblade through the Maelstrom Arena.

To make matters worse every single guide requires you to get gear from dungeons that I am still trying to get the gear for to be able to successfully navigate through without the need to feel like I am the one holding the whole party back.

Yes I know that if I take the time to grind out enough money I can get some of the gear I need from guild stores, I want to get it myself. I want to have the thrill of taking my character from zero to hero and say that I got there on my own. Perhaps instead of nerfing any classes you should consider powering up a few.

Also it seems that there is an imbalance between how stamina and magica are used in the game.

I am deeply saddened that I had to abandon my Stamina Nightblade bow build for a sorcerer in hopes of getting the gear I need to advance farther in the game and I hope to see one day changes made so that does not have to happen.

aeowulf · May 2017

Weps wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

DK's remain relatively untouched in sustain except for tanks who will mostly suffer from the general changes to block.

Eh, what?
Relatively untouched?

They nerfed every single class defining skill that would help DKs keeping their max resource pool filled which was basically the only reason why a stam DK could easily walk around with 600 stamina recovery and outsustain almost everyone.

everyone suffers from the general changes or the changes to things like repentance but as class specific battle roar and helping hands were reduced in effectiveness by a lot less than other classes. That why I considered it 'relatively' as the change to siphoning attacks actually ended up meaning you ran out of stamina faster than when you didn't use it. (as per Gilliams video). kind of the equivalent of battle roar reducing your resource pool or helping hands reducing your stamina when you cast an earthen heart ability.

and i disagree with ALL class changes from this patch. Game/mechanic sustain changes - ok. i can live with those as it puts us all on an equal footing but the continuous unbalancing of the classes is getting beyond a joke

Weps · May 2017

aeowulf wrote: »

Weps wrote: »

aeowulf wrote: »

DK's remain relatively untouched in sustain except for tanks who will mostly suffer from the general changes to block.

Eh, what?
Relatively untouched?

They nerfed every single class defining skill that would help DKs keeping their max resource pool filled which was basically the only reason why a stam DK could easily walk around with 600 stamina recovery and outsustain almost everyone.

everyone suffers from the general changes or the changes to things like repentance but as class specific battle roar and helping hands were reduced in effectiveness by a lot less than other classes. That why I considered it 'relatively' as the change to siphoning attacks actually ended up meaning you ran out of stamina faster than when you didn't use it. (as per Gilliams video). kind of the equivalent of battle roar reducing your resource pool or helping hands reducing your stamina when you cast an earthen heart ability.

and i disagree with ALL class changes from this patch. Game/mechanic sustain changes - ok. i can live with those as it puts us all on an equal footing but the continuous unbalancing of the classes is getting beyond a joke

I beg your pardon but I still don't get how the DK sustain is relatively unchanged.
It's going to be half of what it is currently on Live.
Half.

I understand it's an horrible change that will cripple your sustain but you still can choose to not slot it.
Still you're keeping the Refreshing Shadows passives as it is.

Meanwhile those were the class defining passives, the only way a DK could sustain in battle and have been nerfed to the ground, that will make everyone playing the class craving for an ultimate while having one of the worst Ulti regen of the game.

I agree with what you're saying in the end tho.

GiuEliN0 · May 2017

Zuboko wrote: »

With all of the changes to sustain I am rather concerned about how this will affect our ability to get through things like the Maelstrom Arena.
Also it seems that with the way things currently are (and I fear this will become worse with the new changes) that you need the gear you get from completing the Maelstrom Arena and Veteran level dungeons to be able to successfully complete them which says that something is seriously out of balance and that something looks like it is only going to become worse with the new changes.

I hope I am wrong. I have not managed to get through a single Veteran level dungeon, and after several hundred hours of game play finally worked up the courage to try for the Maelstrom Arena only to find I had a class that is considered the hardest one to take through the Maelstrom Arena (Stamina Nightblade) and did not have anywhere near the proper equipment.

After digging into several online guides I found that the Magica Sorcerer is the best one to take through the Maelstrom Arena and even found a guide on how to build your character. I could not find a single guide to get help on how to get a Stamina Nightblade through the Maelstrom Arena.

To make matters worse every single guide requires you to get gear from dungeons that I am still trying to get the gear for to be able to successfully navigate through without the need to feel like I am the one holding the whole party back.

Yes I know that if I take the time to grind out enough money I can get some of the gear I need from guild stores, I want to get it myself. I want to have the thrill of taking my character from zero to hero and say that I got there on my own. Perhaps instead of nerfing any classes you should consider powering up a few.

Also it seems that there is an imbalance between how stamina and magica are used in the game.

I am deeply saddened that I had to abandon my Stamina Nightblade bow build for a sorcerer in hopes of getting the gear I need to advance farther in the game and I hope to see one day changes made so that does not have to happen.

for how it is in LIVE the vMA with a stamblade could be very rewarding... You have a big giant learning curve... but after u struggle with it enough, really its awesome! But...
tried it with the last patch notes in pts.... i don't know how is going for other classes... I only know that the time i have already passed there seems irrilevant(and i know it enough, cause i'm farming it everyday)
But don't give up with the stamblade, atleast wait for Morrowind U.U