PTS Feedback Thread for Class Balance

Alendrin

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the changes to skill line unlocking. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• In general, what are your thoughts on the class balance in this update?
• How long did it take you to run out of resources? What did you do in this case?
• Did you change your character/build in any way because of these changes? How so?

In general this is a big huge pile of WTF. It seems like you are trying to homogenize the classes together. At what point is a class only defined by its skill animations? Do we drop class abilities and let people pick which 10 buffs/debuffs they want on their bars? You destroyed many things that make classes unique and different to play from each other.

Many class balance changes are poorly implemented. For example igneous shields are so small that no DK is ever going to have major mending while actually in combat. Battle roar was destroyed. The shards synergy changes were confusing and poorly implemented, and even the 3.0.1 change screws any tank with magicka>stamina. I can't imagine the average nightblade player who is not a master animation canceler being able to restore enough resources to even cover the cost of syphoning strikes.

On top of this, the class balance changes make no sense relative to the live game. Sorcerers are generally near the top of the food chain and had little change (I am fine with this and would undo most other changes). Nightblades were much lower in everything not pvp ganking and got one of their best abilities destroyed. Stamina builds are somewhat less desirable than magicka in endgame content but they got bigger sustain nerfs?

Why nerf group synergies at all? Shouldn't these be the key to sustain in a MULTIPLAYER game? Instead of wrecking the templar, add a few more of these to other classes as well.


Generally as far as playing the game, I replaced one jewelry enchantment with cost reduction and heavy attacked when I need to. This works, but a heavy attack meta is far less fun than skill rotations and I suspect this will have a big impact on player enjoyment. Combat becomes less fluid and far more clunky, and as a result less fun. I didn't do any trials or mechanic intensive vet dungeons however, so dps during mechanics or dps check mechanics, for example, may be a far bigger issue.

I also think these changes will hurt new and intermediate players far more. These players tend to spam skills or spam the wrong skills, dodge roll by accident, etc. They will be always out of resources and I expect things to go far worse for them.

bodidharma99

my main is a stamblade....not many guild brings nb into trials. The only thing you see in trials are sorc. I dont care about pvp...i hate the pvp in eso. Maybe the battlegrounds will be fun but i only play this game to make trials with my guild. Give some love to the stamNB in pve all the good skills we use are dualwield skills and bow exept for relentless focus and siphoning strike which now as been nerfed so much that is now useless so we use 1 nb skills on 2 bars. NB is dead...give us something so people need us in trials. and put siphoning strike magicka based again so i dont lose stam to build up stam...its stupid

Merancapeman

bodidharma99 wrote: »

my main is a stamblade....not many guild brings nb into trials. The only thing you see in trials are sorc. I dont care about pvp...i hate the pvp in eso. Maybe the battlegrounds will be fun but i only play this game to make trials with my guild. Give some love to the stamNB in pve all the good skills we use are dualwield skills and bow exept for relentless focus and siphoning strike which now as been nerfed so much that is now useless so we use 1 nb skills on 2 bars. NB is dead...give us something so people need us in trials. and put siphoning strike magicka based again so i dont lose stam to build up stam...its stupid

We can only hope. While I understand that everything needs to change with what's going on this next update, we also have to keep in mind that stamblades have been in a bad place for quite some time. Rogue stereotypes tend to have one thing in common: big burst, stuns, invis, but oftentimes made of glass. In PvP with proper team mechanics, they can be countered by numbers or guarding your healer, or keeping your tank healed while they take down the rogue; basically if you're getting eaten alive by a rogue in PvP, change up your strategy and be prepared for them (instead of griping about it and hope some dev listens and makes them useless). In PvE they weren't hailed, but they tend to be fairly useful and sustain well enough in DPS to make it worth bringing along. Now we come to the current iteration of ESO, where stamblades - your average-joe meat and potatoes rogue - has their burst neutered, their stamina management snipped, and... nope, they're still made of glass. They've had their niche pulled back to the point where other classes fulfill their role much better, and kept the remaining weaknesses and made them weaker. It's like seeing the medium armor skill being reduced was just the last laugh in the long joke that is now a stamblade.

So much for that "your playstyle will be valid" idea when it came to TES-style theorycrafting.

Rinmaethodain

This thread in general reflects my opinion on this update balance changes. Most of these changes are unnecessary, they hurt game, players and i generally do not agree with justification given to why this change is 'good' for game.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/339177/sustain-in-pve-for-morrowind/p1

Specifically these parts

[Please also remove the recent homogenisation to sustain! Necrotic Orbs and Blazing Spear should be separate (one gives magicka, the other gives stamina), the fact I can't choose my resource pool I gain sustain in as a tank, is very very silly, and not strategic at all.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/4055022

And this part:

Tanking is really just not that fun right now either, I assume no one plays a tank the sustain nerf to them was just really awful, I was hoping for some good changes in how I manage my resources. Instead, I can't even control what I get back, I ask for shards and get magicka back because it's my lowest resource pool. I have literally no idea how you guys imagine we spec our characters for this. It really makes no sense.

The whole argument to "block strategical" that was used to support unnecessary double increase to block cost (it will tick now every 0.25s instead of 0.5s) and nerf to Constitution passive which was given to PVE tanks as a compensation for removal of Bracing passive back in Dark Brotherhood (where Heavy armor undergo lot of changes which were explained by Mr. @Wrobel) is a bust when a PVE Tank faces The Warrior in Hel Ra Citadel where very single unblocked attack is insta death; Veteran Hardmode Cradle of Shadows where amount of stray damage is damn to high; Veteran Hardmode Aetherian Archive where 4 (and soon probably 5 will be norm with sustain/dps nerf) Axes constantly light and heavy attack and one unblocked heavy swing (or meteor) is isnta death to tank and wipe for group.

Gan Xing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN65DdMAPew

@ZOS_RichLambert

There are a lot of people who are angry about the patch notes. Including a lot of streamers who bring the game to other who may be curious about the game. These are player who have played since Beta, and they are seeing the complete destruction of the classes they love.

The Templar was supposed to be the healer of the game. Are you trying to make and entire class skill line useless with this patch and suggest that they go Tank/DPS???

The DK was supposed to be the tank of the game. They need sustain and you are reducing it to practically nil.

Sorcerers stay the same..... really? they are currently the most powerful in this meta.

Nightblades have their sustain nerfed.

I get it. You are trying to nerf sustain, but there comes a point when you take a few steps too far. If you are trying to reduce lag and change how the servers take in data and how the game handles damage/healing/etc... be more clear with it. I see some patterns (it carries over to Argonian passives) but it doesn't always carry over...

We get that the Warden is "supposed to be the support" class, but don't force the longtime players to create a new character so that they can continue supporting.

If you truly want each class to be unique and usable, I'm sure it's possible. Hell, it's possible to have most/if not all classes be what ever you want it to be: dps/tank/healer/hybrid [stam or mag based]. Give us those opportunities rather than prevent some classes from being capable of being played.

IwakuraLain42

In case you haven't seen it yet: there is segment on tonights ESO Live where Rich and Eric are explaining some of the changes done with Morrowind:

Discussion with Creative Director Rich Lambert and Lead Combat Designer Eric Wrobel on the recent gameplay changes on the PTS

The show starts on 8pm BST on Twitch.

TipsyDrow

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

In case you haven't seen it yet: there is segment on tonights ESO Live where Rich and Eric are explaining some of the changes done with Morrowind:

Discussion with Creative Director Rich Lambert and Lead Combat Designer Eric Wrobel on the recent gameplay changes on the PTS

The show starts on 8pm BST on Twitch.

They're just going to spout the same exact nonsense that we've seen from dev posts on the forums. After seeing what skills got nerfed into oblivion and what skills a certain new class you have to pay for has, I don't believe any of the reasons they spew forth.

Medakon

I feel in general all changes will force everyone to play their class differently, could be a bad thing, could be a good thing.

However, as my main is a Nightblade Tank(magica/health)..

Siphonning attack cost around 2700 magica to cast, and allows you to restore a small ammount of health / magica.
As a tank I really want this ability back to be a toogle ability on nightblades, and reduce my damage by 25% again if you have to, or atleast make it free of cost to cast.

Bought the collector edtion for morrowin, so will be swaping to Warden once it goes live because there has been too much nerfs on NB, and warden is way beter at keeping their resources up.

IwakuraLain42

TipsyDrow wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

In case you haven't seen it yet: there is segment on tonights ESO Live where Rich and Eric are explaining some of the changes done with Morrowind:

Discussion with Creative Director Rich Lambert and Lead Combat Designer Eric Wrobel on the recent gameplay changes on the PTS

The show starts on 8pm BST on Twitch.

They're just going to spout the same exact nonsense that we've seen from dev posts on the forums. After seeing what skills got nerfed into oblivion and what skills a certain new class you have to pay for has, I don't believe any of the reasons they spew forth.

At least give them the benefit of doubt and actually wait for what they have to say before you accuse them ....

FlyLionel

bodidharma99 wrote: »

my main is a stamblade....not many guild brings nb into trials. The only thing you see in trials are sorc. I dont care about pvp...i hate the pvp in eso. Maybe the battlegrounds will be fun but i only play this game to make trials with my guild. Give some love to the stamNB in pve all the good skills we use are dualwield skills and bow exept for relentless focus and siphoning strike which now as been nerfed so much that is now useless so we use 1 nb skills on 2 bars. NB is dead...give us something so people need us in trials. and put siphoning strike magicka based again so i dont lose stam to build up stam...its stupid

I agree. We have many class abilities that have true potential. Power extraction? Literally the only stamina based AOE special to NB alone and guess what? Steel Tornado is by far better. Where is the spice/uniqueness with stam? We have abilities unlocked and accessible to stamina yet it is not shining. No one is going to slot power extraction for brutality in a single target fight. At least stam DK gets an AOE dot with major breach/stam sorc hurricane surge. All I see stamplar good for is utility, other than that they are in the same boat with NB just have higher survivability.

Vosital

Daily reminder that Sorcs are super overpowered right now.

TipsyDrow

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

TipsyDrow wrote: »

IwakuraLain42 wrote: »

In case you haven't seen it yet: there is segment on tonights ESO Live where Rich and Eric are explaining some of the changes done with Morrowind:

Discussion with Creative Director Rich Lambert and Lead Combat Designer Eric Wrobel on the recent gameplay changes on the PTS

The show starts on 8pm BST on Twitch.

They're just going to spout the same exact nonsense that we've seen from dev posts on the forums. After seeing what skills got nerfed into oblivion and what skills a certain new class you have to pay for has, I don't believe any of the reasons they spew forth.

At least give them the benefit of doubt and actually wait for what they have to say before you accuse them ....

The CP changes, good. The nerf to heavy armor, good. the nerf to medium and light armor, meh not needed but doesn't kill anything. The gutting of classes only to see those very same skills in one form or another end up on the new class you have to pay for....BS, and anyone who has played more then one MMO knows it for what it is. A money grab. It's downright blatant. So no, i will not give them the benefit of the doubt in regards to this.

preedb16_ESO2

usmcjdking wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Heavy isn't the issue.

Hell BOL being as strong as it is isn't even the issue.

BOL being a 28 meter find-the-lowest-hp-dude-who-made-mistakes-and-heal-him-to-full-whilst-faced-the-completely-opposite-direction is the issue. AKA smart heal. Nerfing BOL to have a conal search pattern instead of a massive giant circular radius would be the proper fix for BOL spamming magplars. This is why BOL has invalidated other magicka heals in PVP - because the skill literally takes ZERO tactical or situational awareness to utilize. Just button mash and heal the right people.

THANK YOU

As a more casual player, having to visually find and aim my character at whoever needs healing would make the game rather difficult for me to heal people in groups/dungeons, and rather impossible in trials with 12 people, and beyond impossible in PvP..
Just spam-bashing BOL would also drain my magicka rather quickly and is not something that casual players can afford to do..
In some other games you can target other players in your group by selecting them as target for your casts through the number keys, ESO does not have such a system however.. Please find other ways to rectify situations where overpowered players breeze through content, I assure you, the casual playerbase does NOT breeze through and spam-bash BOL...

But go ahead, kill gameplay and make it even MORE impossible for casual players even more than this patch already has..
Continue to cater for the top 1% (just like Trump) and this game will die...

FlyLionel

preedb16_ESO2 wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Heavy isn't the issue.

Hell BOL being as strong as it is isn't even the issue.

BOL being a 28 meter find-the-lowest-hp-dude-who-made-mistakes-and-heal-him-to-full-whilst-faced-the-completely-opposite-direction is the issue. AKA smart heal. Nerfing BOL to have a conal search pattern instead of a massive giant circular radius would be the proper fix for BOL spamming magplars. This is why BOL has invalidated other magicka heals in PVP - because the skill literally takes ZERO tactical or situational awareness to utilize. Just button mash and heal the right people.

THANK YOU

As a more casual player, having to visually find and aim my character at whoever needs healing would make the game rather difficult for me to heal people in groups/dungeons, and rather impossible in trials with 12 people, and beyond impossible in PvP..
Just spam-bashing BOL would also drain my magicka rather quickly and is not something that casual players can afford to do..

But go ahead, kill gameplay and make it even MORE impossible for casual players even more than this patch already has..
Continue to cater for the top 1% (just like Trump) and this game will die...

Yes I agree. The casual player gets slapped across their face. I ran with a cp 297 healer yesterday and the dude was already struggling as it is..For the top players in the game it is like a "Yeah makes sense"...Trying to balance out the Warden healing/all other classes maybe? We'll see.

boobafinno

dont remove sneak attack bonus. as i said in another topic, without this bonus players who run impen armor with magelight slotted will be unkillable for pure gank builds(and there are a lot of players, who run impen+magelight). not everyone love mortal combat playstyle, dont make your game so monotonous.

Durham

boobafinno wrote: »

dont remove sneak attack bonus. as i said in another topic, without this bonus players who run impen armor with magelight slotted will be unkillable for pure gank builds(and there are a lot of players, who run impen+magelight). not everyone love mortal combat playstyle, dont make your game so monotonous.

Stam nightblade will be fine next patch ..... Other classes like Stam DK and Stamplar just got hit hard... honestly my stam dk feels like my night blade without cloak and spike damage.... i carry a shield and yes i can block but its pretty bad atm I'm out of stam in secs....

Dyride

boobafinno wrote: »

dont remove sneak attack bonus. as i said in another topic, without this bonus players who run impen armor with magelight slotted will be unkillable for pure gank builds(and there are a lot of players, who run impen+magelight). not everyone love mortal combat playstyle, dont make your game so monotonous.

As a ganker, you should train yourself to see the blue aura that Radiant Magelight gives.

I typically only run RML if solo for Empowered DB or if in IC.

The-Baconator

boobafinno wrote: »

dont remove sneak attack bonus. as i said in another topic, without this bonus players who run impen armor with magelight slotted will be unkillable for pure gank builds(and there are a lot of players, who run impen+magelight). not everyone love mortal combat playstyle, dont make your game so monotonous.

Or maybe you shouldn't be able to instakill people from stealth without providing any chance to react because that ruins the game (especially solo play) for the other 95% of the playerbase?

boobafinno

i am not pretty sure, cus my pvp experience not so big, but as i saw, thats not uberhard to avoid gankkill: just be attentive, keep your group or your alliance NPC guards, oftenly cast magelight or/and protect casts, dont be afc or sleepy. i had played as stam dk 1.5 weeks, and if i had followed theese simple rules all was fine - no one ganked me. now i play as stam nb(2 days) and see the same from another side.

Waffennacht

I haven't seen a ganker since Miatt's add-on...

And I'm on Xbox... Lol

Seriously though... They exist still?

Edziu

The-Baconator wrote: »

boobafinno wrote: »

dont remove sneak attack bonus. as i said in another topic, without this bonus players who run impen armor with magelight slotted will be unkillable for pure gank builds(and there are a lot of players, who run impen+magelight). not everyone love mortal combat playstyle, dont make your game so monotonous.

Or maybe you shouldn't be able to instakill people from stealth without providing any chance to react because that ruins the game (especially solo play) for the other 95% of the playerbase?

im not sure after those nerfs..but for now if you dont 1shot people from gang they are comming into unkillable mode for ganker who is pure glass cannon with burst created to fo from stealth, not in open fight

but maybe after those all nerfs, sustain etc maybe it will be finally possible to be still able kill someone in gank without 1shoting people

NBrookus

Waffennacht wrote: »

I haven't seen a ganker since Miatt's add-on...

And I'm on Xbox... Lol

Seriously though... They exist still?

Only in groups. Or "ganking" people getting Xv1'd already. I haven't seen a solo ganker in months. Even the onslaught gankers are running in at least pairs in case Akatosh forbid they fail to one shot someone from stealth.

Xvorg

Durham wrote: »

boobafinno wrote: »

dont remove sneak attack bonus. as i said in another topic, without this bonus players who run impen armor with magelight slotted will be unkillable for pure gank builds(and there are a lot of players, who run impen+magelight). not everyone love mortal combat playstyle, dont make your game so monotonous.

Stam nightblade will be fine next patch ..... Other classes like Stam DK and Stamplar just got hit hard... honestly my stam dk feels like my night blade without cloak and spike damage.... i carry a shield and yes i can block but its pretty bad atm I'm out of stam in secs....

Stamblade an what cloak/fear?

because there's little to no use for cloak with the changes, unles you start stacking magicka regen...

Durham

Xvorg wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

boobafinno wrote: »

dont remove sneak attack bonus. as i said in another topic, without this bonus players who run impen armor with magelight slotted will be unkillable for pure gank builds(and there are a lot of players, who run impen+magelight). not everyone love mortal combat playstyle, dont make your game so monotonous.

Stam nightblade will be fine next patch ..... Other classes like Stam DK and Stamplar just got hit hard... honestly my stam dk feels like my night blade without cloak and spike damage.... i carry a shield and yes i can block but its pretty bad atm I'm out of stam in secs....

Stamblade an what cloak/fear?

because there's little to no use for cloak with the changes, unles you start stacking magicka regen...

you can push it 2 times if you use it in conjunction with fear lol ... from what Im seeing ... I never said that the Night Blade was in a good place .... It will be ok compared to the rest of the classes especially stam, except stam sorc...

bodidharma99

you should give a passive that stacks twice to each class in the trial group. Those passive would only be obtainable by bringing the specific class in the trial so those passive wouldnt be there in pvp. It would force raid leader to create a group with 2 players of each class to get the perfect buff up trial. And he could get 2 more sorc to fill the 2 empty spot lol

SilverWrought

The loss of CP based magicka reduction is unacceptable.
The change in BOL is also unacceptable.

I have developed a number of characters based upon certain features of the current mechanic, specifically for PVE play in trials and solo gaming. It took months to do that. These characters are now no longer viable. That is unacceptable.

I have been playing online MMORPG's literally since the first one, and they all die the same way. The developers can't stop messing with them, in the name of 'improvements'. Eventually, they *** off enough of the people who play their game, that the customer base just goes to do other things.

Which is what I am going to do, if these changes actually move from PTS to live.

bodidharma99

They need to make the siphoning attack's magicka morph restore stam and the stam morph restore magicka.

actosh

bodidharma99 wrote: »

They need to make the siphoning attack's magicka morph restore stam and the stam morph restore magicka.

I hope they will do that. @ZOS_RichLambert @Wrobel

Durham

Heavy Attack was already a great way to get back resources.. but making the game more reliant on it makes combat very clunky and less responsive... It turns PVP into more of a burst meta then it already is... blocking is rendered to expensive to actually use for stamina classes... with defensive combat becoming way to expensive the offensive meta takes hold...

Many people have played the game for 3 years we have built our toons from patch to patch. With every patch we hope to become more effective and stronger. In this type of game people build characters like they build a house ... people have put years in now after all the building and getting stronger this patch literally destroys metas... It destroys unique builds .... It's makes everyone character weaker and some classes and metas received 6 to 7 nerfs stacked on top of their meta...

Another issue I see is balancing when you compare PVP and PVE..... some classes are drastically affected in PVP while not really touched on the PVE aspect...

t3hdubzy

Durham wrote: »

Heavy Attack was already a great way to get back resources.. but making the game more reliant on it makes combat very clunky and less responsive... It turns PVP into more of a burst meta then it already is... blocking is rendered to expensive to actually use for stamina classes... with defensive combat becoming way to expensive the offensive meta takes hold...

Many people have played the game for 3 years we have built our toons from patch to patch. With every patch we hope to become more effective and stronger. In this type of game people build characters like they build a house ... people have put years in now after all the building and getting stronger this patch literally destroys metas... It destroys unique builds .... It's makes everyone character weaker and some classes and metas received 6 to 7 nerfs stacked on top of their meta...

Another issue I see is balancing when you compare PVP and PVE..... some classes are drastically affected in PVP while not really touched on the PVE aspect...

I think if they sped up heavy attacks as ive said before and they mentioned looking at on eso live, this will help a bit, but were going to see like you said, a lot more burst , and probably via proc sets.

I do worry about blocking on magika characters, i run about 10k on my mag charachters which doesnt do barely anything on live now.