Why not make resource return from Battle Roar and Helping Hands have diminishing returns? That would feel a lot more unique, and it could be adjusted well enough so it fits in the current meta.

* In general, what are your thoughts on the class balance in this update?

If the general consensus is to lower sustain across the board I think the changes hit their mark. This doesn't really bother me one way or another. As long as the classes fall into separate tiers of sustain ( from best to worst) I'm happy. Would like sorcerers to remain in the best tier of sustain considering they were placed into that niche after receiving less healing and mobility to compensate.

* How long did it take you to run out of resources? What did you do in this case?

On my full damage setup It took me around a minute to run out while spamming stamina pots and about 30 seconds without pots. During down time you have to spam heavy attacks. My armor set uses heavy attacks so this happens every so often anyway, but the frequency really picked up when out of resources. Quite frankly once you bottom out there is no comfortable gap where you can use your full rotation again.

* Did you change your character/build in any way because of these changes? How so?

I did alter my characters regen quite a bit. I slapped on 3 legendary regen glyphs, and ate stamina regen+ health food. I topped off at around 2850 regen or 3156 regen when I weaved in whirling blades for stamina regen. I no longer needed pots and my stamina upkeep was trivial. I was able to weave in 7 skills into my rotation without ever running out. My stamina regen bonuses totaled up to 50%.


As a consequence of this adjustment my dps has dropped substantially. Losing every weapon enchant + 5k+ stamina food after % modifiers equates to a little over 1k weapon damage lost. Every 500 weapon damage boost tooltip damage by about 10% so we are looking at a skill wide damage reduction of 20%. This has translated into roughly 20% loss of dps on my character.

Considering I had already lost a large chunk of DPS from my sets (Storm Master / Morkuldin) due to the proc set changes I am not operating at a dps level of around 12-14k. Last patch took my single target from 20-23k DPS to 18-15k. This patch has hobbled me even further to 14k or below. I am now so below the 20k single target threshold needed for dps checks on most end game content that my sets are officially ruined.

Again anything outside of cookie cutter sets and DW/bow is being pushed head first into the mud. Two patches ago I played double dual wield using Shock Master/ Morkuldin, pumped out the 20k+ needed for single target and 50k+ for
AOE . This was viable and a fun experience for me. Now if I attempt any of my off meta stam DPS setups I am dead weight.


In conclusion I like the new changes to sustain. I have never been a fan of the spamfest ESO has become, in fact it is what has turned me off from combat every so often between patches. That being said the system also plays like it is built around ability spam. The heavy attack mini game is not very engaging, therefore people are forced into high sustain builds that drastically lower damage. Meanwhile lowering damage across the board is not the same for everyone and can be detrimental when it lowers a play style below the DPS threshold. Weaker DPS setups need to be reevaluated and the Combat team should consider if keeping DPS checks within the game is a boon or detriment to overall build/content diversity.

Ivan04 wrote: »

Why not make resource return from Battle Roar and Helping Hands have diminishing returns? That would feel a lot more unique, and it could be adjusted well enough so it fits in the current meta.

There is actually no need for the change with battle roar and helping hands ..... The blocking change is huge already 50% nerf.. when you add in vigor effectively costing 50% more... and all other Stam abilities costing 20% more on average ... The unversal changes were big...

Templar s , DKs, Night blades should be left alone .... lets see how these universal changes go first then lets visit the classes mid summer... Nerfing classes before a celebrated release is bad PR ... Instead of excitement in the player base you have anger and disappointment ....

This is what happens when a game goes from subscription to buy-to-play. The focus shifts from quality game play to increasing player quantity. ZOS only cares about selling new boxes. You, mister been-here-since-beta, are worth less to them than a new buyer who might casually stay for a couple months than move on. And in a misguided attempt to entice new buyers their goal is making the game easier at the expense of the existing player's experience.

Think about the constant changes in the champion tree (whole CP system is broken but their handling is illustrative of their goal), sure ZOS will give out 30 new points to appease the veteran players but, at the same tine, reduce the effectiveness of the champion system. Talk about one step forward and two back.

As long as the goal is new sales the game will continue to deteriorate because their focus is on the wrong things. Instead of fixing fundamental issues in PVP/PVE they keep throwing out band-aids to cover the greater problems that persist after every update along with the slew of new ones the band-aids create. Sure, the new player will have an easier time, at least until they don't and find themselves battling the same issues the veteran is dealing with. By this point neither are spending more $$$ on the game and possibly leave, so ZOS needs other new players to fill their place.

There are so many great ideas out right now, from respected players, on how to fix whats already broken (class balance, overall gameplay, PVP, etc) so I won't rehash them, but from what I've seen so far ZOS hasn't listened.

Ll

Frenkthevile wrote: »

Gomumon wrote: »

No matter what they say, the biggest problem in this game is that the PVE metagame and PVP metagame do not have separate build archetypes. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: USE SOME OF THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF USELESS SETS, TRAITS, AND BOONS TO MAKE A SEPARATE PVP META. They've been balancing this game since 2014 and are still not happy with the results. It's painfully obvious that the problem isn't with resource management. The problem is that there's no way to buff something for PVE without it becoming abused in PVP, or nerf something in PVP without it becoming useless in PVE.

They could easily make skills behave differently against other players, e.g. (XYZ - Does blah, blah, blah. If used against a player, sets off balance instead of stuns). Or even add more morphs for PVP (then also give us a way to conveniently switch back...perhaps in our homes have a manequin that will save our entire loadout and that we can add Q/D-Pad like other collectibles/consumables).

As for newer players, if you really want to remove or reduce barriers to entry, then fix the damn drop tables. NOBODY is having fun grinding WGT for the 100th time just to get a well-fitted Imperium helm when all they want to do is start healing with their trials guild. I'm sure new players and veterans alike would much more appreaciate being able to make their build easier then actually get to the fun stuff than they would being stronger at CP 300 but taking till 500 anyway to get what they need. It would make more sense to have different set merchants in each zone that take a currency rewarded from PVE content, like there is for AP and Tel Var.

Feeling as this is already nearing TL;DR, I won't list the million other BETTER ideas that would make this game exponentially more fun, rewarding and balanced than lowering max damage and sustain! Not trying to say I have all these good ideas; just that, at this point, you could pick random ideas out of a hat that would achieve that aim better than this. >.>

This is true, so true it hurts.

It really is sad. This game has more potential than any other MMO due to its IP's history alone. But I feel like the devs are more interested in making this play like a fighting game than a Fantasy/Action RPG.

Also, one thing I forgot to ask is if their concern is with each class being able to do all three roles, why aren't the skill lines clearly focused as such? I mean, they have THREE ROLES and THREE SKILL TREES for each class. -_- Instead of homogenizing everything, they could give each class a line that's damage focused, one for healing, and the last for tanking. Then, just have pros and cons to each.

For example, make DKs slow but hard hitting, Templars a little faster with a little more range but not quite as bursty, NBs even faster with more range but less whopping hits, then Sorcerer​s extremely fast (lightning and all) with the longest range but more reliance on keeping distance.

You could do something similar with tanking. DKs have the hardest shields, while Sorcs have the weakest, but use their Clannfear (sp) to draw aggro and use other skills to debuff and cc.

I feel like it should be no different than a well balanced card or racing game, where there SHOULD be different play-styles for each class, but they all have the power to get the job done. What they're doing now is like taking a racing game, and the cars with good top speed but bad acceleration to go slower but accelerate faster; meanwhile taking the cars with fast acceleration but slower top speed to go faster and accelerate slower; taking big trucks with good handing and off-road and giving them more speed but worse handling; and the bike with poor off road, and making it perform the same as everything else.

TL;DR: Classes SHOULD be different and have different pros and cons, and a good learning curve for mastery. Like with cars in a racing game, making all the classes perform the same reduces the difference to cosmetic and superficial preference, making the need for different classes (let alone additions like the Warden) more pointless.

Riggsy wrote: »

This is what happens when a game goes from subscription to buy-to-play. The focus shifts from quality game play to increasing player quantity. ZOS only cares about selling new boxes. You, mister been-here-since-beta, are worth less to them than a new buyer who might casually stay for a couple months than move on. And in a misguided attempt to entice new buyers their goal is making the game easier at the expense of the existing player's experience.

I would respectfully disagree. While I agree they seem more interested in new sales, I don't think new customers bring them more money. I mean, I pretty much buy this game over every 2-4 months with ESO Plus alone. Who knows, maybe my anecdote is inconsistent with the data, but I feel like literally everyone I come across and befriend in this game has Plus; many of whom also don Storm Atronach mounts and other cosmetics.

What I think they're banking on, however, is that old subscribers won't leave due to their cognitive dissonance and time/money invested, while new players are drawn in and become subscribers much quicker (putting them on a High Speed Escalator to end-game content while trapping vets under a Glass Ceiling). They want the bird in their hand and the two in the bush. But, I can tell them, the reaction and population/attitude of the veteran community of a game I'm joining is a big deciding factor in whether I try it. If I hear of constant balance issues and a dissatisfied player base, I won't feel inclined to try it.

ZOS, please think of the PVE tanks, over 90% of casual players rely on them very much and now the casual players got nerfed very hard becuase of this.

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the changes to skill line unlocking. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• In general, what are your thoughts on the class balance in this update?
• How long did it take you to run out of resources? What did you do in this case?
• Did you change your character/build in any way because of these changes? How so?

Can confirm that at least for me the twilight matriarch heal is now superior to BoL in every way.

The change to/loss of repent is even worse than I thought it would be.

Also, the block cost change is terrible and needs to GO. When the tank gets screwed, we are all screwed. And I won't be healing dungeons in your brave new world, on any character. The fun, it is gone.

I feel like people are using their current builds to try the new patch.....

I do not for the life of me understand the nerf to light and medium armor, I do understand the nerf to heavy armor constitution, because heavy armor is dominating in pvp atm, altho id rather see a nerf to Wrath passive instead of constitution. (or heavy attack resource returns)

ofSunhold wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the changes to skill line unlocking. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:

• In general, what are your thoughts on the class balance in this update?
• How long did it take you to run out of resources? What did you do in this case?
• Did you change your character/build in any way because of these changes? How so?

Can confirm that at least for me the twilight matriarch heal is now superior to BoL in every way.

The change to/loss of repent is even worse than I thought it would be.

Also, the block cost change is terrible and needs to GO. When the tank gets screwed, we are all screwed. And I won't be healing dungeons in your brave new world, on any character. The fun, it is gone.

Yeah the Block nerf needs to go. If they want to nerf something nerf the CP for Block Cost reduction

quickblade418 wrote: »

I want to give a feedback about one skill :Power of the light . Are they really going to make it crit ? I mean comon its already doing more damage than alot of ultimates. I have 51k magicka as a magicka DK, and I feel like a crit of my Ferocious Leap does less damage than a non-crit Power of the light ... does that make sense ? and now its gonna be critting ? GG

The only change to Power of the Light in the patch notes is making it so that you can't roll dodge and avoid it being applied. Stamplar has a weak Ultimate, no class DoT's, poor resource management with the nerf to Repentance, and is losing Major Mending so Power of the Light is the only advantage Stamplar has now to keep it's DPS close to other classes.

@ZOS_GinaBruno These nerfs to resources and class perks are the wrong direction, IMO. Rather than homogenizing everything,
they should celebrate differences and balance their combat viability. For example:
Here I gave each class a 3:2 ratio of lethality:survivability, while keeping sustain the same for everyone. In a real scenario I would suggest the golden ratio. This is to keep fights offensive for everyone (since that's the way they end), without the need to nerf sustain or heals for them not to drag on forever.

While these do not represent effective stats, this is an illustration to show that there are other ways to balance each class. The offensive stats are for the class skills' overall power, range, and speed (how quickly they can be cast and weaved), with each character getting 100, 75, and 50. The defensive stats represent the classes skills or passives that aid in defense (Shields and resistance buffs), CC, and mobility (either passive or active gap closers/retreats), with each character getting 75, 50, and 25 for each.

I based these stats off parent archetypes for virtually every RPG: Warrior (DK); Mage (Sorc); Assassin (NB); Cleric (Templar); and Ranger (Warden). While each perk would need to be effectively weighted, I believe having a goal/framework to aim towards would help balancing and tuning individual classes without mucking up everything. This would also help utilize each of their strengths when building their skills lines, which I also think should be reworked.

We're seeing nerfs to classes like the Templar to encourage people to heal with other classes, when it's so obvious that each class should have a skill line for each role (being 3 trees and 3 roles). It would be really fun to rework:
For Damage Dealing: Ardent Flame, Dawn's Wrath, Storm Calling, Assassination, and Animal Companions.
For healing: Earthen Heart, Restoring Aura, Daedric Summoning, Siphoning, and Green Balance.
For Tanking: Draconic Power, Aedric Spear, Dark Magic, Shadow, and Winter's Embrace.

In each, include skills that would be aimed for PVE and some for PVP, but keep everything supplementary to weapon skills which should be necessary to achieve the desired ultimate result.

Lastly, I included a Berserker because it was the last combination of 100,50,75 and 75,50,25 that seemed to fit perfectly and be missing as an archetype. It would be fun to see a class that has to carefully use incoming damage to get stronger.

Sorry this is so long. If you read this, let me know what you think. Thank you.

Gomumon wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno These nerfs to resources and class perks are the wrong direction, IMO. Rather than homogenizing everything,
they should celebrate differences and balance their combat viability. For example:
Here I gave each class a 3:2 ratio of lethality:survivability, while keeping sustain the same for everyone. In a real scenario I would suggest the golden ratio. This is to keep fights offensive for everyone (since that's the way they end), without the need to nerf sustain or heals for them not to drag on forever.

While these do not represent effective stats, this is an illustration to show that there are other ways to balance each class. The offensive stats are for the class skills' overall power, range, and speed (how quickly they can be cast and weaved), with each character getting 100, 75, and 50. The defensive stats represent the classes skills or passives that aid in defense (Shields and resistance buffs), CC, and mobility (either passive or active gap closers/retreats), with each character getting 75, 50, and 25 for each.

I based these stats off parent archetypes for virtually every RPG: Warrior (DK); Mage (Sorc); Assassin (NB); Cleric (Templar); and Ranger (Warden). While each perk would need to be effectively weighted, I believe having a goal/framework to aim towards would help balancing and tuning individual classes without mucking up everything. This would also help utilize each of their strengths when building their skills lines, which I also think should be reworked.

We're seeing nerfs to classes like the Templar to encourage people to heal with other classes, when it's so obvious that each class should have a skill line for each role (being 3 trees and 3 roles). It would be really fun to rework:
For Damage Dealing: Ardent Flame, Dawn's Wrath, Storm Calling, Assassination, and Animal Companions.
For healing: Earthen Heart, Restoring Aura, Daedric Summoning, Siphoning, and Green Balance.
For Tanking: Draconic Power, Aedric Spear, Dark Magic, Shadow, and Winter's Embrace.

In each, include skills that would be aimed for PVE and some for PVP, but keep everything supplementary to weapon skills which should be necessary to achieve the desired ultimate result.

Lastly, I included a Berserker because it was the last combination of 100,50,75 and 75,50,25 that seemed to fit perfectly and be missing as an archetype. It would be fun to see a class that has to carefully use incoming damage to get stronger.

Sorry this is so long. If you read this, let me know what you think. Thank you.

Good job! But there is no Warrior class in this game, DK - is a fire/earth mage. Warriors don't use elemental or supernatural forces.