Thread for those who actually tested in PTS

fericirea

I hope we can get a constructive and scientific (if anecdotal) discussion for those who actually logged into PTS and tested on target dummies. This is a thread of "what I tried, problems with sustain/dps I encountered, my attempted solutions, and what worked."

If you haven't played 3.0.0 on PTS, feel free to read this thread for info but please refrain from posting.

Obviously, keep NDA content out of this thread. This includes new quests, new items, new zones, new houses, and anything about the Warden class. We can talk about CP, existing gear combinations, and skills for existing classes.

I'll start. I spent about an hour on PTS with my Stam Sorc wacking on target dummies last night. I run 5pc NMG, 5pc Spriggan, and 2pc Veli. I took off all CP and added 50 into Mooncalf. Findings:

• I ran OOS in about 51s without Mooncalf and 67s with Mooncalf with my current live rotation weaving light attacks.
• When I wove heavy attacks, I managed similar DPS while sustaining very well.

A guildie of mine went onto PTS and tested all the existing Mag classes, and here's his contribution:

@everyone .. I did some.. testing.. on the PTS "Involving slavery of fellow guildies in another guild for about an hour" and have tried MULTIPLE times across classes.. and your biggest issue is pairing sustain and damage together. Without sustain, you dont have damage, simple as that. So, from best to worst, here are your options (For mag sustain) Magblade-Templar-DK-Sorc..... This may or may not change based on current PTS flip flopping their decisions.

As a magblade with ele drain (All tests had ele drain) I had no sustain issues. Siphoning attacks is a wonderful tool, and it means you dont have to run witchmothers brew. temp has rune, DK- ulti's, and lastly sorc.. My poor baby is no longer near as viable.. If you use dark conversion, then you are screwing yourself out of stam.. no stam= orbs return stam meaning you can use it MAYBE one more time, but then you're SOL.. with this newfound knowledge, reroll a magblade.. (This was all done with the current meta gear- BSW, Grothdar/Illambris, MD, vMA inferno)

In theory, magblades will be the best sustained DPS next patch, while sorcs will be at the top with burst

I couldn't follow up with him (he went to bed) with details regarding how much he wove in heavy attacks or if he tried combinations like removing a monster set and doing 5pc seducer and 5pc BSW, so it'd be great if other people in the community tested hypotheses like these.

I hope we as a community can find the sweet spot of "sustained highest DPS" for various builds by changing up rotations and builds. Keep in mind we're in PTS1, and the ease/difficulty of this exercise will also inform the evolution of PTS2+ for Morrowind.

EDIT1:
Someone asked for parse screenshots. I can't sustain over a minute when weaving light attacks on PTS, so here it is on live, which pretty much is infinite sustain for me. This is no pots, no help (so no major fracture, etc.), and no skill bar optimizations (Evil Hunter, etc.). It's just a baseline for comparing light attack weaving and heavy attack weaving, with the latter sustaining on PTS.

• Light attack weaving
• Heavy attack weaving

The takeaway is that heavy attack weaving is sustainable for DW for two main reasons. 1) It halves the usage of Flurry per unit time, and 2) it returns resources.

Angier

Now consider spending additional points into stuff like master-of-arms or into CP buffing your light and heavy attacks and the DPS should be going up again.

HuawaSepp

and if a raid mechanik forces you to block-cast? wipe xD

But please provide some screenshots with an add on like 'combat metrics'.
Your info isn't helpful now because I don't know so many factors.
Would be great to see the dps of every class on the 3M life doll.

Zarrakon

Angier wrote: »

Now consider spending additional points into stuff like master-of-arms or into CP buffing your light and heavy attacks and the DPS should be going up again.

One of the side-effects of the CP rework is that if you want to get the most benefit from the damage CPs (which will almost certainly give you more initial DPS than on live), you cannot get Arcane Well. Because you'll want 75 into thaumaturge for the exploiter passive, and you'll want to dip a lot of points into man-at-arms or staff expert.

I think I actually like the new CP set-up; I was definitely looking at my mage tree and thinking '***, which do I want? sustain or damage?'.

I don't know if your rankings are quite right though - I'd guess magDKs would be at the top for sustained single-target DPS (because heavy attacking makes a lot of sense with molten armaments). But I haven't tried one out yet on the PTS (maybe next week).

Uriel_Nocturne

*** I am not in the Closed Beta, this is just testing based off of the Base Game Changes coming with the 3.0 Update ***

Resource management is going to be a very huge issue.

I Main a Magicka Templar DPS (Dunmer). I retooled all his gear with a specific mind to maximize Resource regen (5x Seducer [including Destro Flame Staff], 3x Magnus's Gift, and 3x Destruction Mastery [jewelry])(for armor I went with all Light).

With this set-up, I sacrificed a lot in DPS in favor of maximizing resource return; but I figured "what the hell, it may take me a bit longer, but if this resource gear works well, I can handle an increase in TTK, because I'll have the Magicka to back up a longer fight".

I am still rampantly running out of Magicka, and it takes me 30 seconds or longer to replenish a fully spent Magicka pool...

I'm having trouble completing DELVES with the reduction in CP resource management and the nerf to the resource return for Light Armor. The Mobs were a hassle, but I found I could wipe them out at about the same time my Magicka ran out fully. The Delve Boss? I had to fully run out of it's aggro area to the point that the tether kicked in and reset the Boss back to its spawn point... even using Potions I crafted myself (which are infinitely more potent than the ones the game gives you), I couldn't regen Magicka fast enough to take out a Delve Boss. Even in a group, the only reason we beat the Boss is due to combined DPS, and even then, our resources were completely depleted.

I was not able to complete a Public Dungeon. Period.

I couldn't get through the tougher, higher number Mobs at all, and mitigation through Potions helped in the same manner as for the Delves (as in; so little that it was like I didn't use a potion at all).

So our little group then tried a World Boss. That was a *** joke. On us. And we were the punchline.

Talking to the guys in our group of four, our Stamina characters were depleting their Stamina pools just as fast (our StamDK Sword & Board had it worse off than the rest of us) as the Magicka Characters were. Not even our Sorc was able to keep his Magicka pool at a decent flow rate.

Every one was running out of resources fast enough that we couldn't complete the base content.

We briefly discussed trying one of the 4-man Group Dungeons, but quickly decided that was simply out of the question with how our performance in the above content acted out.

If these changes to resource sustain/cost reduction remain "as is", I have no idea how players (even the "elite" end-game players) are going to complete ANY of the Trials.

Stack that Resource sustain/cost reduction with the changes to how the Class Skills and abilities act, and I can easily see Trials and Group Dungeons would be simply unplayable.

This Update 3.0 is going to be a cancer, and actually being able to play a Class (any class really...) is going to be a monumental increase in difficulty.

This coming update is abhorrent, and my wife and I signed out of the PTS in disgust. All we could do was shake our heads at how bad of an experience it was.

Turelus

@Uriel_Nocturne thank you so much for this post. It's really the kind of feedback we need to be posted as it gives examples and information rather than drama.

Pallio

We can't say anything about how much better the Warden is than any other class, that is too bad.

Zarrakon

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

I'm having trouble completing DELVES with the reduction in CP resource management and the nerf to the resource return for Light Armor. The Mobs were a hassle, but I found I could wipe them out at about the same time my Magicka ran out fully. The Delve Boss? I had to fully run out of it's aggro area to the point that the tether kicked in and reset the Boss back to its spawn point... even using Potions I crafted myself (which are infinitely more potent than the ones the game gives you), I couldn't regen Magicka fast enough to take out a Delve Boss. Even in a group, the only reason we beat the Boss is due to combined DPS, and even then, our resources were completely depleted.

Sorry, but there is something seriously wrong that has nothing to do with CPs if you cannot complete a delve because you're running out of resources. Like, if you literally went in and ONLY cast puncturing sweeps on everything you saw, you should be able to clear a delve without any CP at all (wearing level-appropriate gear).

Pallio

Most importantly, did the massive nerf to regen fix the infinite resource problem in PvP?

That is really all that matters.

Flattedfifth

fericirea wrote: »

I hope we can get a constructive and scientific (if anecdotal) discussion for those who actually logged into PTS and tested on target dummies. This is a thread of "what I tried, problems with sustain/dps I encountered, my attempted solutions, and what worked."

If you haven't played 3.0.0 on PTS, feel free to read this thread for info but please refrain from posting.

Obviously, keep NDA content out of this thread. This includes new quests, new items, new zones, new houses, and anything about the Warden class. We can talk about CP, existing gear combinations, and skills for existing classes.

I'll start. I spent about an hour on PTS with my Stam Sorc wacking on target dummies last night. I run 5pc NMG, 5pc Spriggan, and 2pc Veli. I took off all CP and added 50 into Mooncalf. Findings:

• I ran OOS in about 51s without Mooncalf and 67s with Mooncalf with my current live rotation weaving light attacks.
• When I wove heavy attacks, I managed similar DPS while sustaining very well.

A guildie of mine went onto PTS and tested all the existing Mag classes, and here's his contribution:

@everyone .. I did some.. testing.. on the PTS "Involving slavery of fellow guildies in another guild for about an hour" and have tried MULTIPLE times across classes.. and your biggest issue is pairing sustain and damage together. Without sustain, you dont have damage, simple as that. So, from best to worst, here are your options (For mag sustain) Magblade-Templar-DK-Sorc..... This may or may not change based on current PTS flip flopping their decisions.

As a magblade with ele drain (All tests had ele drain) I had no sustain issues. Siphoning attacks is a wonderful tool, and it means you dont have to run witchmothers brew. temp has rune, DK- ulti's, and lastly sorc.. My poor baby is no longer near as viable.. If you use dark conversion, then you are screwing yourself out of stam.. no stam= orbs return stam meaning you can use it MAYBE one more time, but then you're SOL.. with this newfound knowledge, reroll a magblade.. (This was all done with the current meta gear- BSW, Grothdar/Illambris, MD, vMA inferno)

In theory, magblades will be the best sustained DPS next patch, while sorcs will be at the top with burst

I couldn't follow up with him (he went to bed) with details regarding how much he wove in heavy attacks or if he tried combinations like removing a monster set and doing 5pc seducer and 5pc BSW, so it'd be great if other people in the community tested hypotheses like these.

I hope we as a community can find the sweet spot of "sustained highest DPS" for various builds by changing up rotations and builds. Keep in mind we're in PTS1, and the ease/difficulty of this exercise will also inform the evolution of PTS2+ for Morrowind.

Dear baby jesus christ! THESE ARE THE KINDS OF THREADS WE NEED RN

acw37162

Created a template Mag DK Breton.

Resources management is now a massive issue. I didn't have access to a proc recovery set in my test account and as a DK with already expensive cost you are out of magica within two DOT rotation give or take without spamming lash. Spamming lash exacerbates the problem.

Harness Magica is even more important then it was before.

You feel the resource pull.

I find myself after about three hours on PTS hoping this whole exercise is to give ZOS resource data behind the scenes and will move resources management back to a more reasonable level before this goes live.

This hurts and was not fun

Flattedfifth

Zarrakon wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

I'm having trouble completing DELVES with the reduction in CP resource management and the nerf to the resource return for Light Armor. The Mobs were a hassle, but I found I could wipe them out at about the same time my Magicka ran out fully. The Delve Boss? I had to fully run out of it's aggro area to the point that the tether kicked in and reset the Boss back to its spawn point... even using Potions I crafted myself (which are infinitely more potent than the ones the game gives you), I couldn't regen Magicka fast enough to take out a Delve Boss. Even in a group, the only reason we beat the Boss is due to combined DPS, and even then, our resources were completely depleted.

Sorry, but there is something seriously wrong that has nothing to do with CPs if you cannot complete a delve because you're running out of resources. Like, if you literally went in and ONLY cast puncturing sweeps on everything you saw, you should be able to clear a delve without any CP at all (wearing level-appropriate gear).

literally what i was just going to say!

Uriel_Nocturne

Zarrakon wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

I'm having trouble completing DELVES with the reduction in CP resource management and the nerf to the resource return for Light Armor. The Mobs were a hassle, but I found I could wipe them out at about the same time my Magicka ran out fully. The Delve Boss? I had to fully run out of it's aggro area to the point that the tether kicked in and reset the Boss back to its spawn point... even using Potions I crafted myself (which are infinitely more potent than the ones the game gives you), I couldn't regen Magicka fast enough to take out a Delve Boss. Even in a group, the only reason we beat the Boss is due to combined DPS, and even then, our resources were completely depleted.

Sorry, but there is something seriously wrong that has nothing to do with CPs if you cannot complete a delve because you're running out of resources. Like, if you literally went in and ONLY cast puncturing sweeps on everything you saw, you should be able to clear a delve without any CP at all (wearing level-appropriate gear).

Name me a player who only uses one Skill in their arsenal.

Just one.

There's no way to keep any or enough resources to tackle the content. And if I do as you say; use no other Skill except for Puncturing Sweeps, so that my Magicka doesn't deplete in less than 15 seconds, that doesn't make what the Update has done to the game any better.

That's saying: "We nerfed your resource management tools so drastically, that the only way you can make it through content is to literally spam one skill (and still hope your Magicka/Stamina don't run out).

I even weaved in Light and Heavy attacks, but the update nerfs the return from those attacks so much, that you only get back slightly less than a third of what you spend to activate a Skill.

This update is horrifically punishing any type of Skill use, by making your resources deplete at an ungodly rate, while making your resource return next to nothing.

JDC1985

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

*** I am not in the Closed Beta, this is just testing based off of the Base Game Changes coming with the 3.0 Update ***

Resource management is going to be a very huge issue.

I Main a Magicka Templar DPS (Dunmer). I retooled all his gear with a specific mind to maximize Resource regen (5x Seducer [including Destro Flame Staff], 3x Magnus's Gift, and 3x Destruction Mastery [jewelry])(for armor I went with all Light).

With this set-up, I sacrificed a lot in DPS in favor of maximizing resource return; but I figured "what the hell, it may take me a bit longer, but if this resource gear works well, I can handle an increase in TTK, because I'll have the Magicka to back up a longer fight".

I am still rampantly running out of Magicka, and it takes me 30 seconds or longer to replenish a fully spent Magicka pool...

I'm having trouble completing DELVES with the reduction in CP resource management and the nerf to the resource return for Light Armor. The Mobs were a hassle, but I found I could wipe them out at about the same time my Magicka ran out fully. The Delve Boss? I had to fully run out of it's aggro area to the point that the tether kicked in and reset the Boss back to its spawn point... even using Potions I crafted myself (which are infinitely more potent than the ones the game gives you), I couldn't regen Magicka fast enough to take out a Delve Boss. Even in a group, the only reason we beat the Boss is due to combined DPS, and even then, our resources were completely depleted.

I was not able to complete a Public Dungeon. Period.

I couldn't get through the tougher, higher number Mobs at all, and mitigation through Potions helped in the same manner as for the Delves (as in; so little that it was like I didn't use a potion at all).

So our little group then tried a World Boss. That was a *** joke. On us. And we were the punchline.

Talking to the guys in our group of four, our Stamina characters were depleting their Stamina pools just as fast (our StamDK Sword & Board had it worse off than the rest of us) as the Magicka Characters were. Not even our Sorc was able to keep his Magicka pool at a decent flow rate.

Every one was running out of resources fast enough that we couldn't complete the base content.

We briefly discussed trying one of the 4-man Group Dungeons, but quickly decided that was simply out of the question with how our performance in the above content acted out.

If these changes to resource sustain/cost reduction remain "as is", I have no idea how players (even the "elite" end-game players) are going to complete ANY of the Trials.

Stack that Resource sustain/cost reduction with the changes to how the Class Skills and abilities act, and I can easily see Trials and Group Dungeons would be simply unplayable.

This Update 3.0 is going to be a cancer, and actually being able to play a Class (any class really...) is going to be a monumental increase in difficulty.

This coming update is abhorrent, and my wife and I signed out of the PTS in disgust. All we could do was shake our heads at how bad of an experience it was.

O its okay don't worry about sustain just heavy and light attack everything because this is better the new patch notes are great don't believe me ask zos. This is exactly what they want it don't matter what u want this the direction they want. Remember the old 4 classes are dead was you on the new warden class because they completely gutted the whole entire game and all other classes to force you to play a warden. If you can't play the game don't worry you can get your credit card out and buy something out of the crown store and wait till next patch.

Uriel_Nocturne

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

*** I am not in the Closed Beta, this is just testing based off of the Base Game Changes coming with the 3.0 Update ***

Resource management is going to be a very huge issue.

I Main a Magicka Templar DPS (Dunmer). I retooled all his gear with a specific mind to maximize Resource regen (5x Seducer [including Destro Flame Staff], 3x Magnus's Gift, and 3x Destruction Mastery [jewelry])(for armor I went with all Light).

With this set-up, I sacrificed a lot in DPS in favor of maximizing resource return; but I figured "what the hell, it may take me a bit longer, but if this resource gear works well, I can handle an increase in TTK, because I'll have the Magicka to back up a longer fight".

I am still rampantly running out of Magicka, and it takes me 30 seconds or longer to replenish a fully spent Magicka pool...

I'm having trouble completing DELVES with the reduction in CP resource management and the nerf to the resource return for Light Armor. The Mobs were a hassle, but I found I could wipe them out at about the same time my Magicka ran out fully. The Delve Boss? I had to fully run out of it's aggro area to the point that the tether kicked in and reset the Boss back to its spawn point... even using Potions I crafted myself (which are infinitely more potent than the ones the game gives you), I couldn't regen Magicka fast enough to take out a Delve Boss. Even in a group, the only reason we beat the Boss is due to combined DPS, and even then, our resources were completely depleted.

I was not able to complete a Public Dungeon. Period.

I couldn't get through the tougher, higher number Mobs at all, and mitigation through Potions helped in the same manner as for the Delves (as in; so little that it was like I didn't use a potion at all).

So our little group then tried a World Boss. That was a *** joke. On us. And we were the punchline.

Talking to the guys in our group of four, our Stamina characters were depleting their Stamina pools just as fast (our StamDK Sword & Board had it worse off than the rest of us) as the Magicka Characters were. Not even our Sorc was able to keep his Magicka pool at a decent flow rate.

Every one was running out of resources fast enough that we couldn't complete the base content.

We briefly discussed trying one of the 4-man Group Dungeons, but quickly decided that was simply out of the question with how our performance in the above content acted out.

If these changes to resource sustain/cost reduction remain "as is", I have no idea how players (even the "elite" end-game players) are going to complete ANY of the Trials.

Stack that Resource sustain/cost reduction with the changes to how the Class Skills and abilities act, and I can easily see Trials and Group Dungeons would be simply unplayable.

This Update 3.0 is going to be a cancer, and actually being able to play a Class (any class really...) is going to be a monumental increase in difficulty.

This coming update is abhorrent, and my wife and I signed out of the PTS in disgust. All we could do was shake our heads at how bad of an experience it was.

I quoted myself to add in this additional thought:

I am not an "Elite-end-game-player". I am, if anything, a slightly above average Casual player.

I use only Crafted Sets, as I cannot (due to circumstance and time constraints) grind the Trials and Group Dungeons for Monster Drop Sets. I have not done the Dragonstar Arena, Maelstrom Arena, or (again) any of the Trials and Group dungeons.

My play time and real life limit me to a couple of hours per night, and I am only ever really able to run Delves, Public Dungeons, and do the Daily Mages Guild/Fighters Guild/Dark Brotherhood quests.

I have discovered every crafting location in the game, and thus I have a decent working knowledge of the Crafted Sets, and how they interact in the game world for Overland and Base Game content. My friends that I group with on those rare occasions that we can Group, are in the same position that I am.

While mitigating or finding a "work around" for the Resource sustain/cost reduction nerfs might be a relatively easy thing for those aforementioned "elite end game content players" only around 1-2% of the game population has conquered that same end-game content.

The other 98%-99% of the game, are in the same situation as my friends an I are.

If the resource management changes are hitting us (again; slightly above average players) as hard as they are, where even Delves are an issue and tougher content is simply impossible to complete due to resource constraints; imagine how hard these changes are going to hit the "average" and "below average" players.

For them, even overland Mobs might be a very serious issue and very difficult to complete if these changes stay "as is".

While those elite players may actually have some great advice for lower ability players, those casual players aren't going to seek them out. They'll see that they can't do anything with their characters after this patch drops, and what do you think those Casual players will do at that point?

While it might be very easy for those Elite players to sift through multiple combinations of Sets to find the right balance between DPS and sustain in order to keep their resources high; casual players don't have that luxury, and due to their own constraints, likely never will have that option.

This is not going to be a good change to the game. None of 3.0 is going to be good for the game.

Again; while this might seem like an absurdly easy fix for the Elite end-game content players, the rest of the game populace is going to suffer greatly with this update.

I love ESO. It's one of the better MMO's I've played over the last 20+ years. But this upcoming patch is one of the worst I've ever seen in the entire MMORPG genre.

And that's the view and experience from the "other 98%" after playing it for a couple days on this PTS.

Tholian1

Thank you, @Uriel_Nocturne

I was hoping the patch would be tested by a player similar to myself, crafted gear, limited play time, etc...

This is very discouraging. Especially reading you had trouble in delves.

Please keep reporting what you experience.

Drummerx04

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Name me a player who only uses one Skill in their arsenal.

Just one.

There's no way to keep any or enough resources to tackle the content. And if I do as you say; use no other Skill except for Puncturing Sweeps, so that my Magicka doesn't deplete in less than 15 seconds, that doesn't make what the Update has done to the game any better.

That's saying: "We nerfed your resource management tools so drastically, that the only way you can make it through content is to literally spam one skill (and still hope your Magicka/Stamina don't run out).

I even weaved in Light and Heavy attacks, but the update nerfs the return from those attacks so much, that you only get back slightly less than a third of what you spend to activate a Skill.

This update is horrifically punishing any type of Skill use, by making your resources deplete at an ungodly rate, while making your resource return next to nothing.

This is really not the point. Resource management will definitely be tougher... but delves are SO easy that you really shouldn't need to run away from a puny delve boss that hits like a rolled up newspaper.

On a side note, did they actually nerf the resource returns from heavy attacks, I didn't see that in the patch notes? Currently they restore somewhere around 1.5k I believe.

Uriel_Nocturne

Tholian1 wrote: »

Thank you, @Uriel_Nocturne

I was hoping the patch would be tested by a player similar to myself, crafted gear, limited play time, etc...

This is very discouraging. Especially reading you had trouble in delves.

Please keep reporting what you experience.

My wife and two friends are "planning" on getting back in there again tonight. But with the way it has gone over the last two days, we're kind of dreading doing so.

But we won't know the "in's-and-out's" of the patch if we don't log-in and try it out, so... yeah.

Rungar

I went around killing stuff on my dk tank. didn't notice any difference really. Of course my dk tank never used magician or warlord and only ever had a few points in the regen stars.

I did notice that its now better to let trash hit you than try to block as your block pool will be depleted much more quickly than your health will when there are 6 or more mobs (max armor).

ill go blast through one of the public dungeons and ill report back shortly.

Uriel_Nocturne

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Name me a player who only uses one Skill in their arsenal.

Just one.

There's no way to keep any or enough resources to tackle the content. And if I do as you say; use no other Skill except for Puncturing Sweeps, so that my Magicka doesn't deplete in less than 15 seconds, that doesn't make what the Update has done to the game any better.

That's saying: "We nerfed your resource management tools so drastically, that the only way you can make it through content is to literally spam one skill (and still hope your Magicka/Stamina don't run out).

I even weaved in Light and Heavy attacks, but the update nerfs the return from those attacks so much, that you only get back slightly less than a third of what you spend to activate a Skill.

This update is horrifically punishing any type of Skill use, by making your resources deplete at an ungodly rate, while making your resource return next to nothing.

This is really not the point. Resource management will definitely be tougher... but delves are SO easy that you really shouldn't need to run away from a puny delve boss that hits like a rolled up newspaper.

On a side note, did they actually nerf the resource returns from heavy attacks, I didn't see that in the patch notes? Currently they restore somewhere around 1.5k I believe.

They did reduce the return on Light and Heavy attacks, as well as the resource management passives on Armor.

santos.vellab16_ESO

Ok, the flow of disinformation needs to stop.
On the PTS I can still easily solo any public delve/non-DLC group dungeon on my (purposedly) terrible 2H-only Stamplar Master Crafter/gatherer build that is geared for max sprinting speed of all things. I don't even have Caltrops or Vigor. And this isn't a brag whatsoever, I have like 3 APM.

Rungar

either way blasted through obsidian scar with little resistance.

didn't even use molten armaments though my gear is pretty good ( for a tank)

my playstyle employs heavy attacks weaved with skills so perhaps that was the difference.


so no sky has fallen, at least not on the obsidian scar. will have to try a vet dungeon and see how that goes.

Flattedfifth

santos.vellab16_ESO wrote: »

Ok, the flow of disinformation needs to stop.
On the PTS I can still easily solo any public delve/non-DLC group dungeon on my (purposedly) terrible 2H-only Stamplar Master Crafter/gatherer build that is geared for max sprinting speed of all things. I don't even have Caltrops or Vigor. And this isn't a brag whatsoever, I have like 3 APM.

Yea, I guess this patch is going to become the new excuse for stinkin' up the joint

NBrookus

My experience with my breton templar was nowhere as poor as @Uriel_Nocturne had. I was in a basic 5 light + 1 + 1 setup: Julianos, Grothdarr, willpower, DW torugs + maelstrom ice staff (because my inferno was elsewhere). My basic playstyle is slow and steady, so I had a fair amount of regen (1500) for a non-healer spec. Delves and public dungeon bosses were no problem, just a bit harder and took longer.

I switched to world bosses. The first couple I picked at random creamed me. So I went to one that I have farmed 50+ times with pretty simple mechanics, Siren's Cove I think it's called. I was very strained for resources and using pots on cooldown, and sometimes had to just fall back and heavy attack and heal in my rune. I did finish her on the second try, but it was I'd say about 50% harder than before.

I'm actually okay with the increased difficulty level for magplars in solo pve. Remember how cool the tough world bosses they introduced with Orsinium were? World Bosses should be very hard to solo, IMO. On live, magplars can very nearly jab spam their way through world bosses and nearly any content including Skyreach solo. It doesn't promote smart play. With the regen changes for magplar, players will need to learn to rotate in aoes and heavy attacks early in their progress.

The group synergy that templars don't have anymore is more worrisome to me. That side of magplar has been gutted. On live, pretty much every group does better as a whole with a templar around than with another class in that slot. In that respect, templars have utterly lost their identity. There's no compelling reason to want to choose templar as a class now, IMO.

By comparison, my pvp-spec'ed single target sorc with no aoe at all and 700 regen easily nuked my way through a public dungeon. Minor sustain issues and I just used heavy attacks and streak on easier mobs to regen. But 52k magicka is a big pool from which to draw.

NBrookus

Switching to mag DK...

I don't have a PVE mag DK setup. 5 heavy + 1 + 1 Rattlecage/Seducer/Bloodspawn dual S&B. 1200 regen, 2250 spell damage, 34k magicka; jewelry is 2 cost reduction, 1 spell damage, atronach mundus. I took on the target skelly as if it were pvp; i.e. keeping my buffs up and cc'ing on cooldown, etc.

With 2 tripots and an ultimate... I was totally OOM in 1 minute 9 seconds. Which is rarely fast enough to kill a player 1v1 on a mag DK.

Mojmir

santos.vellab16_ESO wrote: »

Ok, the flow of disinformation needs to stop.
On the PTS I can still easily solo any public delve/non-DLC group dungeon on my (purposedly) terrible 2H-only Stamplar Master Crafter/gatherer build that is geared for max sprinting speed of all things. I don't even have Caltrops or Vigor. And this isn't a brag whatsoever, I have like 3 APM.

you can do this naked with no cp's at any level,now go try something actually challenging.

casparian

As a magblade with ele drain (All tests had ele drain) I had no sustain issues. ... Siphoning attacks is a wonderful tool, and it means you dont have to run witchmothers brew ... In theory, magblades will be the best sustained DPS next patch

I'm curious to see if anyone else has had this experience. It has not been mine. The nerf to Siphoning Attacks was so substantial that it takes almost all of the skill's duration just to refund the cost of the skill. Casting it before combat and letting your magicka regen before entering combat does give you a moderate recovery boost for the remaining duration of the skill, but the nerf was so heavy that it's not worth recasting mid-combat as a sustain tool anymore.

I mean, maybe we'll be the best sustained DPS just because everyone else (edit: everyone but Warden) is worse -- I haven't tested other magicka classes, so I don't know -- but saying we won't need to use Witchmother's and have "no sustain issues" seems entirely too sunny an assessment.

Uriel_Nocturne

NBrookus wrote: »

My experience with my breton templar was nowhere as poor as @Uriel_Nocturne had. I was in a basic 5 light + 1 + 1 setup: Julianos, Grothdarr, willpower, DW torugs + maelstrom ice staff (because my inferno was elsewhere). My basic playstyle is slow and steady, so I had a fair amount of regen (1500) for a non-healer spec. Delves and public dungeon bosses were no problem, just a bit harder and took longer.

I switched to world bosses. The first couple I picked at random creamed me. So I went to one that I have farmed 50+ times with pretty simple mechanics, Siren's Cove I think it's called. I was very strained for resources and using pots on cooldown, and sometimes had to just fall back and heavy attack and heal in my rune. I did finish her on the second try, but it was I'd say about 50% harder than before.

I'm actually okay with the increased difficulty level for magplars in solo pve. Remember how cool the tough world bosses they introduced with Orsinium were? World Bosses should be very hard to solo, IMO. On live, magplars can very nearly jab spam their way through world bosses and nearly any content including Skyreach solo. It doesn't promote smart play. With the regen changes for magplar, players will need to learn to rotate in aoes and heavy attacks early in their progress.

The group synergy that templars don't have anymore is more worrisome to me. That side of magplar has been gutted. On live, pretty much every group does better as a whole with a templar around than with another class in that slot. In that respect, templars have utterly lost their identity. There's no compelling reason to want to choose templar as a class now, IMO.

By comparison, my pvp-spec'ed single target sorc with no aoe at all and 700 regen easily nuked my way through a public dungeon. Minor sustain issues and I just used heavy attacks and streak on easier mobs to regen. But 52k magicka is a big pool from which to draw.

I'm not trying to *** on your experience or rag on you in any way at all, but you've kind of proven my point.

With your gear set up and the end-game monster drop equipment you're running with, even on this build, the "average t0 below-average" player won't have access to that stuff.

I didn't have access to them either, and my resource pools with the equipment set up I used was hovering around 35-38k Magicka.

Without the Monster drop sets, etc., my situation got much worse than yours very quickly. And even with your higher tier, end-game content gear, there were several times that you were facing a similar (though mitigated) resource drought that I described.

And as I said, that's the point of my experience.

The average-below average player is going to find having enough resources to finish their fights to be a very scarce situation. I think this patch is going to brutally punish 98% of the player base.

argouru

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

Uriel_Nocturne wrote: »

*** I am not in the Closed Beta, this is just testing based off of the Base Game Changes coming with the 3.0 Update ***

Resource management is going to be a very huge issue.

I Main a Magicka Templar DPS (Dunmer). I retooled all his gear with a specific mind to maximize Resource regen (5x Seducer [including Destro Flame Staff], 3x Magnus's Gift, and 3x Destruction Mastery [jewelry])(for armor I went with all Light).

With this set-up, I sacrificed a lot in DPS in favor of maximizing resource return; but I figured "what the hell, it may take me a bit longer, but if this resource gear works well, I can handle an increase in TTK, because I'll have the Magicka to back up a longer fight".

I am still rampantly running out of Magicka, and it takes me 30 seconds or longer to replenish a fully spent Magicka pool...

I'm having trouble completing DELVES with the reduction in CP resource management and the nerf to the resource return for Light Armor. The Mobs were a hassle, but I found I could wipe them out at about the same time my Magicka ran out fully. The Delve Boss? I had to fully run out of it's aggro area to the point that the tether kicked in and reset the Boss back to its spawn point... even using Potions I crafted myself (which are infinitely more potent than the ones the game gives you), I couldn't regen Magicka fast enough to take out a Delve Boss. Even in a group, the only reason we beat the Boss is due to combined DPS, and even then, our resources were completely depleted.

I was not able to complete a Public Dungeon. Period.

I couldn't get through the tougher, higher number Mobs at all, and mitigation through Potions helped in the same manner as for the Delves (as in; so little that it was like I didn't use a potion at all).

So our little group then tried a World Boss. That was a *** joke. On us. And we were the punchline.

Talking to the guys in our group of four, our Stamina characters were depleting their Stamina pools just as fast (our StamDK Sword & Board had it worse off than the rest of us) as the Magicka Characters were. Not even our Sorc was able to keep his Magicka pool at a decent flow rate.

Every one was running out of resources fast enough that we couldn't complete the base content.

We briefly discussed trying one of the 4-man Group Dungeons, but quickly decided that was simply out of the question with how our performance in the above content acted out.

If these changes to resource sustain/cost reduction remain "as is", I have no idea how players (even the "elite" end-game players) are going to complete ANY of the Trials.

Stack that Resource sustain/cost reduction with the changes to how the Class Skills and abilities act, and I can easily see Trials and Group Dungeons would be simply unplayable.

This Update 3.0 is going to be a cancer, and actually being able to play a Class (any class really...) is going to be a monumental increase in difficulty.

This coming update is abhorrent, and my wife and I signed out of the PTS in disgust. All we could do was shake our heads at how bad of an experience it was.

I quoted myself to add in this additional thought:

I am not an "Elite-end-game-player". I am, if anything, a slightly above average Casual player.

I use only Crafted Sets, as I cannot (due to circumstance and time constraints) grind the Trials and Group Dungeons for Monster Drop Sets. I have not done the Dragonstar Arena, Maelstrom Arena, or (again) any of the Trials and Group dungeons.

My play time and real life limit me to a couple of hours per night, and I am only ever really able to run Delves, Public Dungeons, and do the Daily Mages Guild/Fighters Guild/Dark Brotherhood quests.

I have discovered every crafting location in the game, and thus I have a decent working knowledge of the Crafted Sets, and how they interact in the game world for Overland and Base Game content. My friends that I group with on those rare occasions that we can Group, are in the same position that I am.

While mitigating or finding a "work around" for the Resource sustain/cost reduction nerfs might be a relatively easy thing for those aforementioned "elite end game content players" only around 1-2% of the game population has conquered that same end-game content.

The other 98%-99% of the game, are in the same situation as my friends an I are.

If the resource management changes are hitting us (again; slightly above average players) as hard as they are, where even Delves are an issue and tougher content is simply impossible to complete due to resource constraints; imagine how hard these changes are going to hit the "average" and "below average" players.

For them, even overland Mobs might be a very serious issue and very difficult to complete if these changes stay "as is".

While those elite players may actually have some great advice for lower ability players, those casual players aren't going to seek them out. They'll see that they can't do anything with their characters after this patch drops, and what do you think those Casual players will do at that point?

While it might be very easy for those Elite players to sift through multiple combinations of Sets to find the right balance between DPS and sustain in order to keep their resources high; casual players don't have that luxury, and due to their own constraints, likely never will have that option.

This is not going to be a good change to the game. None of 3.0 is going to be good for the game.

Again; while this might seem like an absurdly easy fix for the Elite end-game content players, the rest of the game populace is going to suffer greatly with this update.

I love ESO. It's one of the better MMO's I've played over the last 20+ years. But this upcoming patch is one of the worst I've ever seen in the entire MMORPG genre.

And that's the view and experience from the "other 98%" after playing it for a couple days on this PTS.

This is exactly what I was afraid of. I'm a middle-aged man with slow reflexes and little time to play. I've only within the last month began playing group dungeons and am avoiding arenas as I prefer casual play to an intense challenge. If the changes stay as-is, I will no longer be able to survive battles and group dungeons and trials will be impossible for me to play. I've played almost every day since the XB1 release and am sad to see players like myself being punished for our lack of skill and vast array of gear. I might have to quit the game and get back to Horizon Zero Dawn if these changes aren't cut back enough to give me a chance of surviving combat in-game, especially on Vet-level content.

Panth141

Okay, here's some data:

Constant Parameters/Disclaimer etc

I'm using a template character, and here's what I had set up:

• Dunmer mDK
• 5x Mother's Sorrow, 3x Spinner, 2x Grothdarr, vMA inferno double bar as a substitute for 'pure damage' gear. I'll sub in seducer etc. later. All max magicka.
• 100 Arcanist, 45 Tenacity, rest somewhere meaningless. Blue/Red irrelevant
• Using crown TRI food and crown spellcaster elixir - unless I'm missing something, the new crafting skill line 'discovery' system means templates have all of these lines set to 1. Great. /s
• Do NOT have medicinal use (see previous point)
• Using a fixed, standard mDK rotation on the 54m health dummy so he doesn't die
• Vamp
• PTS can be laggy AF for me, so there's probably a substantial degree of uncertainty, here.
• 5:1:1, with undaunted, obviously all passives etc. Inner Light + Meteor front bar with MG passives.
• All performed solo

Results

All SD enchants, with ele drain
OOM after 61 seconds

All SD enchants, no ele drain
OOM after 40 seconds (I ran out of magicka with a standard still active... lol)

All SD enchants, ele drain, replacing 2 whips per rotation with fully-charged heavy attack
OOM after 120 seconds

2x SD, 1x Regen enchants, ele drain
OOM after 70 seconds

2x SD, 1x Cost Redn enchants, ele drain
OOM after 72 seconds

2x SD, 1x Regen enchants, ele drain, replacing 2 whips per rotation with fully-charged heavy attack
Forgot to do this... will report back later

2x SD, 1x Cost Redn enchants, ele drain, replacing 2 whips per rotation with fully-charged heavy attack
This one too...

1x SD, 1x Regen, 1x Cost Redn enchants, ele drain
OOM after 74 seconds (srsly)

1x SD, 1x Regen, 1x Cost Redn enchants, ele drain, replacing 2 whips per rotation with fully-charged heavy attack
Didn't go OOM.

Conclusions

Now, this is exclusively for mDK and there are a few flaws (see first spoiler), but my view is that, as sustain on an mDK is all about keeping you going between potions and ultis, it seems:

1. Going full damage is pretty much unfeasible
2. Moving in either one recovery/cost redn enchant doesn't fix things
3. Putting one recovery AND 1 cost redn also isn't enough to fill the gap between pots/ultis
4. Weaving in a heavy attack/rotation really does help with plugging the gap, but needs support from at least 1 sustain enchant, ideally 2 - this was probably helped by the fact that I had free green CP to dump in tenacity.
5. Why the hell does Eruption still cost over 4k magicka? Seriously, my magicka just melts away during my back bar rotation
   
   I suppose that with 2 stat food + crafted pots + medicinal use, filling the gap between pots and ultis without weaving in FHAs may be feasible - idk, can't test it because ZoS has been silly with the templates. (Or I'm being silly and missing something...). I'll try more arrangements of enchants and swapping in sustain-based gear at some point - this is a ball ache, too as my enchanting is of course 1, so I have to make a new character every time I want more enchants. But, based on my testing with what I have at hand, it seems like there's one sure-fire way to sustain:
   
   Please, please don't make me heavy attack every rotation, Zenimax. Especially as it takes so damn long now.

P.S. If anyone wants to throw a load of crafted spell power pots + 2 stat food (perhaps some witchmothers, I'll test that too) at me on PTS, then I'll be able to match meta sustain a bit better, it's @Panth141. EDIT: Fml, I forgot that my mail is full of rewards for the worthy

Durham

I have been testing stam DK PVP. Wow what a difference it's bad you pretty much have to run the OP shield ulti .... The nerfs were stacked on this meta pretty hard....

-PVP blocking cost is just crazy up 50%
-50% increase cost in vigor when add in champ point change
-42% decrease in stam and magicka from armor.. keep in mind shields is extremely expensive..
-60% stam return is gone from class passive
-20% increase in stam abilities when factor champ changes
-25 decrease in healing

When you put all this together it's not good...