The more this thread goes on the more stupid and false the arguments become. It started from casuals will get hurt more to it will be impossible to do dungeons to it will be impossible to kill quest bosses to the game will die and now.. the more u progress the weaker u become. In the thread about nerfing CP cause its too strong the counter argument is that the more u level the weaker u become. Nice try. Maybe next time.
The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.@Quigster
The devs in the eso live said this game was designed without cooldowns so you have to sustain ur resources. Managing resources was supposed to be a mitigating factor in build performance. Right now in PVP where you actually have to build sustain survivability and dmg in ur build there are people using only dmg sets and sustaining forever. And this happens mostly in CP campaigns. Even when they are playing solo where they have no support from anyone else. Which results to either people dying before they can react or not dying ever. And that is why battlegrounds will probably be without CP. In PVE everyone is stacking dmg, most content tactics is stack and burn and pulling the most amount of DPS is only about performing a perfect rotation. Whoever smashes the buttons quicker. There is nothing about player skill. Which is precisely the point why everything is a gear grind fest and people in this same thread are complaining about content requiring BiS gear to complete and its also precisely why top guilds have ridiculous DPS requirments to get invited.
The problem isnt that u cant ignore sustain. The problem is that there are people who can and instead of you being judged about ur skill and knowledge of game mechanics, u are being judged about the gear u wear and how fast u press buttons
EldritchPenguin wrote: »The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.@Quigster
The devs in the eso live said this game was designed without cooldowns so you have to sustain ur resources. Managing resources was supposed to be a mitigating factor in build performance. Right now in PVP where you actually have to build sustain survivability and dmg in ur build there are people using only dmg sets and sustaining forever. And this happens mostly in CP campaigns. Even when they are playing solo where they have no support from anyone else. Which results to either people dying before they can react or not dying ever. And that is why battlegrounds will probably be without CP. In PVE everyone is stacking dmg, most content tactics is stack and burn and pulling the most amount of DPS is only about performing a perfect rotation. Whoever smashes the buttons quicker. There is nothing about player skill. Which is precisely the point why everything is a gear grind fest and people in this same thread are complaining about content requiring BiS gear to complete and its also precisely why top guilds have ridiculous DPS requirments to get invited.
The problem isnt that u cant ignore sustain. The problem is that there are people who can and instead of you being judged about ur skill and knowledge of game mechanics, u are being judged about the gear u wear and how fast u press buttons
The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The "issue" (I'm going to call it an issue for now, but more on this later) is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.
The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.
The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.
And that's exactly spot on.Doctordarkspawn wrote: »EldritchPenguin wrote: »The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.@Quigster
The devs in the eso live said this game was designed without cooldowns so you have to sustain ur resources. Managing resources was supposed to be a mitigating factor in build performance. Right now in PVP where you actually have to build sustain survivability and dmg in ur build there are people using only dmg sets and sustaining forever. And this happens mostly in CP campaigns. Even when they are playing solo where they have no support from anyone else. Which results to either people dying before they can react or not dying ever. And that is why battlegrounds will probably be without CP. In PVE everyone is stacking dmg, most content tactics is stack and burn and pulling the most amount of DPS is only about performing a perfect rotation. Whoever smashes the buttons quicker. There is nothing about player skill. Which is precisely the point why everything is a gear grind fest and people in this same thread are complaining about content requiring BiS gear to complete and its also precisely why top guilds have ridiculous DPS requirments to get invited.
The problem isnt that u cant ignore sustain. The problem is that there are people who can and instead of you being judged about ur skill and knowledge of game mechanics, u are being judged about the gear u wear and how fast u press buttons
The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The "issue" (I'm going to call it an issue for now, but more on this later) is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.
The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.
The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.
This.
This is why I say that a PVP focused development handicapped this game. This is why I say that this game fundementally does not have what it takes to be a PVE difficulty experience. It dont matter what you do, math is math.
Personally I have 4% cost reduction and 10% mag rec from CP and I have never gone oom in a vDung.
It could be a cool idea, but you gotta keep in mind that this would mean that 7 Medium builds would have a ton of sustain and no damage, while 7 Light builds would have obscene damage and no sustain. Unless some stars got moved around very carefully, then there would be a pretty huge rift between Magicka and Stamina builds.I'm still trying to form this thought....
Think about, what if CP only affected gear traits/sets/bonuses/attributes/resistances/everything, based on a tier system with the type of gear you run. I'm terrible at math, but essentially what I'm trying to say is each color in the CP tree (red/blue/green) scaled differently with the type of armor. So, lets say in 5 LA, you'd only receive 40% bonus of the red constellations, but in 7 HA, you'd receive 100% of the benefits they put out, ie. resistances etc.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
@Wrobel
EldritchPenguin wrote: »I'm still trying to form this thought....
Think about, what if CP only affected gear traits/sets/bonuses/attributes/resistances/everything, based on a tier system with the type of gear you run. I'm terrible at math, but essentially what I'm trying to say is each color in the CP tree (red/blue/green) scaled differently with the type of armor. So, lets say in 5 LA, you'd only receive 40% bonus of the red constellations, but in 7 HA, you'd receive 100% of the benefits they put out, ie. resistances etc.
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
It could be a cool idea, but you gotta keep in mind that this would mean that 7 Medium builds would have a ton of sustain and no damage, while 7 Light builds would have obscene damage and no sustain. Unless some stars got moved around very carefully, then there would be a pretty huge rift between Magicka and Stamina builds.
EldritchPenguin wrote: »
The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.
The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The "issue" (I'm going to call it an issue for now, but more on this later) is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.
The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.
The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.
EldritchPenguin wrote: »The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources.
darthsithis wrote: »Idk what y'all are talking about. 600cp players shouldn't have advantages over people who have played for two weeks.
At least they are compensating by making the vet trials appropriately matched to this new system so pve remains independent of pvp changes. I love my 20 second ward! My ilambris crits hard too. Saving up overload to 1000 is nice as well, and I'm so glad radiant oppression never got nerfed.
Oh wait April fools zenimax hates pve players, GIMME THAT DECISIVE MAELSTROM ICE STAFF NAO!
Oh well. Adapt and keep being the best my friends. Anyone in this thread is capable of adjusting and still being top 99th %ile
EldritchPenguin wrote: »
The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.
The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The "issue" (I'm going to call it an issue for now, but more on this later) is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.
The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.
The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.
This I understand and agree with. I again watched the ESO Live vid where Lambert mentioned the "possible" changes to remove sustain. He also used a false premise, CP allows infinite sustain (or words to that effect). Despite my previous statements (which I still believe are true) that high CP does not guarantee all vet players have unlimited resources, I also can understand the intent he is trying obtain. I just disagree with how he is trying to go about it.
Grabbing a section of Eldritch's post above:EldritchPenguin wrote: »The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources.
This is spot-on accurate and something I have seen other developers grasp and implement in other MMOs. WoW is a decent example. Some of their end-game raid bosses began to have 'invulnerable" moments when combat would have to shift to adds and the player had to focus more on damage mitigation (staying out of the red, etc). If PvE combat was adjusted to accommodate mechanics such as this, the "infinite" resource management issue could become a non-issue.
However, I still stand by my belief that a blanket nerf to all vet characters is NOT how to address problems with excessive resources that "some" people have.
Doctordarkspawn wrote: »The more this thread goes on the more stupid and false the arguments become. It started from casuals will get hurt more to it will be impossible to do dungeons to it will be impossible to kill quest bosses to the game will die and now.. the more u progress the weaker u become. In the thread about nerfing CP cause its too strong the counter argument is that the more u level the weaker u become. Nice try. Maybe next time.
Firstly, that's true because costs increase and your resources actually decrease via the current system.
Secondly, you still spread misinformation.
I've recently started seeing people like you on most forums, these people who vehemently oppose any opinion against the company. Let me let you in on a little secret.
You are doing more damage than you can possibly imagine to the game you love so much by attempting to silence criticism of it.
I like to add, along with the nerf, will also come a rebalancing of sets. This means some real major adjustment would be coming. I am really excited as this really shakes up the meta and I look forward to tinkering with new builds.
I like to add, along with the nerf, will also come a rebalancing of sets. This means some real major adjustment would be coming. I am really excited as this really shakes up the meta and I look forward to tinkering with new builds.
Um, please enlighten me as to where ZOS said anything about rebalancing sets? I don't recall them ever stating this.
EldritchPenguin wrote: »The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.@Quigster
The devs in the eso live said this game was designed without cooldowns so you have to sustain ur resources. Managing resources was supposed to be a mitigating factor in build performance. Right now in PVP where you actually have to build sustain survivability and dmg in ur build there are people using only dmg sets and sustaining forever. And this happens mostly in CP campaigns. Even when they are playing solo where they have no support from anyone else. Which results to either people dying before they can react or not dying ever. And that is why battlegrounds will probably be without CP. In PVE everyone is stacking dmg, most content tactics is stack and burn and pulling the most amount of DPS is only about performing a perfect rotation. Whoever smashes the buttons quicker. There is nothing about player skill. Which is precisely the point why everything is a gear grind fest and people in this same thread are complaining about content requiring BiS gear to complete and its also precisely why top guilds have ridiculous DPS requirments to get invited.
The problem isnt that u cant ignore sustain. The problem is that there are people who can and instead of you being judged about ur skill and knowledge of game mechanics, u are being judged about the gear u wear and how fast u press buttons
The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The issue is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.
The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.
The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.
This is spot-on accurate and something I have seen other developers grasp and implement in other MMOs. WoW is a decent example. Some of their end-game raid bosses began to have 'invulnerable" moments when combat would have to shift to adds and the player had to focus more on damage mitigation (staying out of the red, etc). If PvE combat was adjusted to accommodate mechanics such as this, the "infinite" resource management issue could become a non-issue.
However, I still stand by my belief that a blanket nerf to all vet characters is NOT how to address problems with excessive resources that "some" people have.
I like to add, along with the nerf, will also come a rebalancing of sets. This means some real major adjustment would be coming. I am really excited as this really shakes up the meta and I look forward to tinkering with new builds.
Um, please enlighten me as to where ZOS said anything about rebalancing sets? I don't recall them ever stating this.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/332429/transcript-reddit-battlegrounds-aua-30-03-2017#latest
Read the First post, first few paragraphs.
In 4v4v4 battlegrounds How are you going to address certain groups of permablock guard builds (magplars in particular) that require about 8 people to kill them? Currently in open world pvp a group of 4 magplars can have each other guarded, each with 33k health and heavy armor, block cast, and not run out of resources. In a battleground scenario this group of 4 would never be able to be killed.
1224f5fd95.png @ZOS_RichLambert
There are a number of avenues we're looking at. We're not ready to talk in depth on the changes, but we're looking at things like: - CP power adjustments (or if we do CP at all in BG) - Item set adjustments - Regen adjustments - etc...
Ultimately we don't love these kinds of builds either.
Joy_Division wrote: »
I'm not going to pre-order Morrowind until the dust settles on this issue, I already have problems with magicka sustain on my sorcerer even with 100 into magician and if it gets worse I won't be ordering at all
PvE should never effect PvP and vice versa!