Warlord and Magician CP being removed in Morrowind

Doctordarkspawn

pieratsos wrote: »

The more this thread goes on the more stupid and false the arguments become. It started from casuals will get hurt more to it will be impossible to do dungeons to it will be impossible to kill quest bosses to the game will die and now.. the more u progress the weaker u become. In the thread about nerfing CP cause its too strong the counter argument is that the more u level the weaker u become. Nice try. Maybe next time.

Firstly, that's true because costs increase and your resources actually decrease via the current system.

Secondly, you still spread misinformation.

I've recently started seeing people like you on most forums, these people who vehemently oppose any opinion against the company. Let me let you in on a little secret.

You are doing more damage than you can possibly imagine to the game you love so much by attempting to silence criticism of it.

EldritchPenguin

pieratsos wrote: »

@Quigster
The devs in the eso live said this game was designed without cooldowns so you have to sustain ur resources. Managing resources was supposed to be a mitigating factor in build performance. Right now in PVP where you actually have to build sustain survivability and dmg in ur build there are people using only dmg sets and sustaining forever. And this happens mostly in CP campaigns. Even when they are playing solo where they have no support from anyone else. Which results to either people dying before they can react or not dying ever. And that is why battlegrounds will probably be without CP. In PVE everyone is stacking dmg, most content tactics is stack and burn and pulling the most amount of DPS is only about performing a perfect rotation. Whoever smashes the buttons quicker. There is nothing about player skill. Which is precisely the point why everything is a gear grind fest and people in this same thread are complaining about content requiring BiS gear to complete and its also precisely why top guilds have ridiculous DPS requirments to get invited.

The problem isnt that u cant ignore sustain. The problem is that there are people who can and instead of you being judged about ur skill and knowledge of game mechanics, u are being judged about the gear u wear and how fast u press buttons

The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.

The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The issue is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.

The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.

The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.

Doctordarkspawn

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@Quigster
The devs in the eso live said this game was designed without cooldowns so you have to sustain ur resources. Managing resources was supposed to be a mitigating factor in build performance. Right now in PVP where you actually have to build sustain survivability and dmg in ur build there are people using only dmg sets and sustaining forever. And this happens mostly in CP campaigns. Even when they are playing solo where they have no support from anyone else. Which results to either people dying before they can react or not dying ever. And that is why battlegrounds will probably be without CP. In PVE everyone is stacking dmg, most content tactics is stack and burn and pulling the most amount of DPS is only about performing a perfect rotation. Whoever smashes the buttons quicker. There is nothing about player skill. Which is precisely the point why everything is a gear grind fest and people in this same thread are complaining about content requiring BiS gear to complete and its also precisely why top guilds have ridiculous DPS requirments to get invited.

The problem isnt that u cant ignore sustain. The problem is that there are people who can and instead of you being judged about ur skill and knowledge of game mechanics, u are being judged about the gear u wear and how fast u press buttons

The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.

The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The "issue" (I'm going to call it an issue for now, but more on this later) is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.

The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.

The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.

This.

This is why I say that a PVP focused development handicapped this game. This is why I say that this game fundementally does not have what it takes to be a PVE difficulty experience. It dont matter what you do, math is math.

Uriel_Nocturne

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@Quigster
The devs in the eso live said this game was designed without cooldowns so you have to sustain ur resources. Managing resources was supposed to be a mitigating factor in build performance. Right now in PVP where you actually have to build sustain survivability and dmg in ur build there are people using only dmg sets and sustaining forever. And this happens mostly in CP campaigns. Even when they are playing solo where they have no support from anyone else. Which results to either people dying before they can react or not dying ever. And that is why battlegrounds will probably be without CP. In PVE everyone is stacking dmg, most content tactics is stack and burn and pulling the most amount of DPS is only about performing a perfect rotation. Whoever smashes the buttons quicker. There is nothing about player skill. Which is precisely the point why everything is a gear grind fest and people in this same thread are complaining about content requiring BiS gear to complete and its also precisely why top guilds have ridiculous DPS requirments to get invited.

The problem isnt that u cant ignore sustain. The problem is that there are people who can and instead of you being judged about ur skill and knowledge of game mechanics, u are being judged about the gear u wear and how fast u press buttons

The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.

The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The "issue" (I'm going to call it an issue for now, but more on this later) is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.

The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.

The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.

This.

This is why I say that a PVP focused development handicapped this game. This is why I say that this game fundementally does not have what it takes to be a PVE difficulty experience. It dont matter what you do, math is math.

And that's exactly spot on.

Joy_Division

Jitterbug wrote: »

Personally I have 4% cost reduction and 10% mag rec from CP and I have never gone oom in a vDung.

And you shouldn't if the healer is doing her job.

The issue is not every player has access to healers refilling their resource bars when questing alone or trying VMA

SneaK

I'm still trying to form this thought....

Think about, what if CP only affected gear traits/sets/bonuses/attributes/resistances/everything, based on a tier system with the type of gear you run. I'm terrible at math, but essentially what I'm trying to say is each color in the CP tree (red/blue/green) scaled differently with the type of armor. So, lets say in 5 LA, you'd only receive 40% bonus of the red constellations, but in 7 HA, you'd receive 100% of the benefits they put out, ie. resistances etc.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

@Wrobel

phbell

I am wondering if it is too late to get my Morrowind pre-order refunded. ZOS continues to screw with the game rather than fix it.

If this is a PvP balancing measure then i have a suggestion: Put Cryodiil on its own server and give everyone the same build (like NASCAR) and then let skill separate the players. Balancing issue solved and PvE can go about their gaming without senseless interference.

EldritchPenguin

SneaK wrote: »

I'm still trying to form this thought....

Think about, what if CP only affected gear traits/sets/bonuses/attributes/resistances/everything, based on a tier system with the type of gear you run. I'm terrible at math, but essentially what I'm trying to say is each color in the CP tree (red/blue/green) scaled differently with the type of armor. So, lets say in 5 LA, you'd only receive 40% bonus of the red constellations, but in 7 HA, you'd receive 100% of the benefits they put out, ie. resistances etc.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

@Wrobel

It could be a cool idea, but you gotta keep in mind that this would mean that 7 Medium builds would have a ton of sustain and no damage, while 7 Light builds would have obscene damage and no sustain. Unless some stars got moved around very carefully, then there would be a pretty huge rift between Magicka and Stamina builds.

SneaK

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

I'm still trying to form this thought....

Think about, what if CP only affected gear traits/sets/bonuses/attributes/resistances/everything, based on a tier system with the type of gear you run. I'm terrible at math, but essentially what I'm trying to say is each color in the CP tree (red/blue/green) scaled differently with the type of armor. So, lets say in 5 LA, you'd only receive 40% bonus of the red constellations, but in 7 HA, you'd receive 100% of the benefits they put out, ie. resistances etc.


hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

It could be a cool idea, but you gotta keep in mind that this would mean that 7 Medium builds would have a ton of sustain and no damage, while 7 Light builds would have obscene damage and no sustain. Unless some stars got moved around very carefully, then there would be a pretty huge rift between Magicka and Stamina builds.

I agree, it would have to be carefully implemented, as I can see Sorcs becoming demi-gods once again. They would have to do something about shields, possibly make them crit-able, at least Bastion is in the red tree. Also, the scaling wouldn't necessarily mean no damage for 7 mediums, the way I picture that would be 100% of the sustained trees, and probably something like 50-70% of the blue/red trees. IMO, that would actually make 7 medium builds play out as the most well rounded. I'm not fully comprehending what I'm saying though to be honest, there would be so much to it. But I think if done correctly it would offer a solution to the problem we have with LA/MA/HA.

Quigster

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.

The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The "issue" (I'm going to call it an issue for now, but more on this later) is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.

The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.

The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.

This I understand and agree with. I again watched the ESO Live vid where Lambert mentioned the "possible" changes to remove sustain. He also used a false premise, CP allows infinite sustain (or words to that effect). Despite my previous statements (which I still believe are true) that high CP does not guarantee all vet players have unlimited resources, I also can understand the intent he is trying obtain. I just disagree with how he is trying to go about it.

Grabbing a section of Eldritch's post above:

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources.

This is spot-on accurate and something I have seen other developers grasp and implement in other MMOs. WoW is a decent example. Some of their end-game raid bosses began to have 'invulnerable" moments when combat would have to shift to adds and the player had to focus more on damage mitigation (staying out of the red, etc). If PvE combat was adjusted to accommodate mechanics such as this, the "infinite" resource management issue could become a non-issue.

However, I still stand by my belief that a blanket nerf to all vet characters is NOT how to address problems with excessive resources that "some" people have.

Blackbird_V

My idea if removing reduced cost:
Arcanist: 1-16% chance to negate magicka cost of spells.
Warlord: 1-16% chance to negate stamina cost of spells.

ADarklore

I've already removed all CP from Cost Reduction and moved them elsewhere... this way I can L2P without relying on CP for sustain because ZOS will not be changing their mind about this no matter how much people might complain. They've done it before, they'll do it again... and players threatening to quit, we've heard before, we'll hear again... but it still never impacts ZOS' decisions like this. They want to lower the damage ceiling and force players to choose between damage and sustain... this is the direction they've chosen to implement that. The only thing that they may still be deciding is exactly WHAT to replace certain placements with... as they also mentioned, they want to have a 'counter' for everything in the trees... and Cost Reduction isn't something that can be countered; at least this is the rationale they're choosing to use to explain the changes, along with wanting resource management to be a focus again.

darthsithis

Idk what y'all are talking about. 600cp players shouldn't have advantages over people who have played for two weeks.

At least they are compensating by making the vet trials appropriately matched to this new system so pve remains independent of pvp changes. I love my 20 second ward! My ilambris crits hard too. Saving up overload to 1000 is nice as well, and I'm so glad radiant oppression never got nerfed.

Oh wait April fools zenimax hates pve players, GIMME THAT DECISIVE MAELSTROM ICE STAFF NAO!

Oh well. Adapt and keep being the best my friends. Anyone in this thread is capable of adjusting and still being top 99th %ile

Anti_Virus

darthsithis wrote: »

Idk what y'all are talking about. 600cp players shouldn't have advantages over people who have played for two weeks.

At least they are compensating by making the vet trials appropriately matched to this new system so pve remains independent of pvp changes. I love my 20 second ward! My ilambris crits hard too. Saving up overload to 1000 is nice as well, and I'm so glad radiant oppression never got nerfed.

Oh wait April fools zenimax hates pve players, GIMME THAT DECISIVE MAELSTROM ICE STAFF NAO!

Oh well. Adapt and keep being the best my friends. Anyone in this thread is capable of adjusting and still being top 99th %ile

Your avatar combined with your rant makes your post extra funny.

Doctordarkspawn

Quigster wrote: »

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.

The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The "issue" (I'm going to call it an issue for now, but more on this later) is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.

The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.

The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.

This I understand and agree with. I again watched the ESO Live vid where Lambert mentioned the "possible" changes to remove sustain. He also used a false premise, CP allows infinite sustain (or words to that effect). Despite my previous statements (which I still believe are true) that high CP does not guarantee all vet players have unlimited resources, I also can understand the intent he is trying obtain. I just disagree with how he is trying to go about it.

Grabbing a section of Eldritch's post above:

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources.

This is spot-on accurate and something I have seen other developers grasp and implement in other MMOs. WoW is a decent example. Some of their end-game raid bosses began to have 'invulnerable" moments when combat would have to shift to adds and the player had to focus more on damage mitigation (staying out of the red, etc). If PvE combat was adjusted to accommodate mechanics such as this, the "infinite" resource management issue could become a non-issue.

However, I still stand by my belief that a blanket nerf to all vet characters is NOT how to address problems with excessive resources that "some" people have.

So we now have proof that their being fed a crock of crap as far as the CP sustain goes.

THIS IS WHY WE CANNOT TRUST THE DEVS TO BE THE DEVS. THEY WILL MAKE THESE HORRIBLY OUT OF WACK STATEMENTS BECAUSE THEY DONT PLAY THEIR OWN GAME, AND CANNOT COME TO THEIR OWN CONCLUSIONS.

pieratsos

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

The more this thread goes on the more stupid and false the arguments become. It started from casuals will get hurt more to it will be impossible to do dungeons to it will be impossible to kill quest bosses to the game will die and now.. the more u progress the weaker u become. In the thread about nerfing CP cause its too strong the counter argument is that the more u level the weaker u become. Nice try. Maybe next time.

Firstly, that's true because costs increase and your resources actually decrease via the current system.

Secondly, you still spread misinformation.

I've recently started seeing people like you on most forums, these people who vehemently oppose any opinion against the company. Let me let you in on a little secret.

You are doing more damage than you can possibly imagine to the game you love so much by attempting to silence criticism of it.

Ok keep believing that the more u lvl the weaker u become. If that was the case every low CP player would be murdering every CP600 player in azuras. But thats not happening because they are not stronger. The most important thing is that u dont seem to know how CP works. Sustain is not the only thing u get from CP. A higher CP player has more dmg more survivability more stats. All that give indirectly more sustain too. There is a reason why every day u see threads about low CPs getting kicked out of groups. There is a reason why u see everywhere in chats about groups asking for high CP players. There is a reason why azuras has more low CP players than trueflame. There is a reason why azuras even exists. You are the one spreading misinformation not me. And dont accuse me of things that you do. I actually tried to have a conversation about whether this change is good or bad. You are the one who doesnt care about the opinion of other people. You are trying to balance the game around urself, u dont give a damn about any other kind of player, u constantly change ur arguments, you want the game to change to be more skill based and yet you are against to any kind of CP change which basically gives free stats, you cant even agree with urself, you avoid to answer the points i make and instead you try to accuse me of a bunch of nonsense. And im not the one damaging the game. You are. I literally said this change will make the game better. On the other hand you are in the official forums of the game saying how bad this game is and how it is going to die. And im the one doing dmg to the game? Wow.
Next time you want to make an argument try to stick to ur point and back it up with actual facts instead of changing it and accusing others. If you want to continue this conversation then try to prove me wrong by addressing the points i make and not by accusing me of a bunch of crap. Otherwise there is no point to continue this.

mewcatus

I like to add, along with the nerf, will also come a rebalancing of sets. This means some real major adjustment would be coming. I am really excited as this really shakes up the meta and I look forward to tinkering with new builds.

ADarklore

mewcatus wrote: »

I like to add, along with the nerf, will also come a rebalancing of sets. This means some real major adjustment would be coming. I am really excited as this really shakes up the meta and I look forward to tinkering with new builds.

Um, please enlighten me as to where ZOS said anything about rebalancing sets? I don't recall them ever stating this.

mewcatus

ADarklore wrote: »

mewcatus wrote: »

I like to add, along with the nerf, will also come a rebalancing of sets. This means some real major adjustment would be coming. I am really excited as this really shakes up the meta and I look forward to tinkering with new builds.

Um, please enlighten me as to where ZOS said anything about rebalancing sets? I don't recall them ever stating this.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/332429/transcript-reddit-battlegrounds-aua-30-03-2017#latest

Read the First post, first few paragraphs.

In 4v4v4 battlegrounds How are you going to address certain groups of permablock guard builds (magplars in particular) that require about 8 people to kill them? Currently in open world pvp a group of 4 magplars can have each other guarded, each with 33k health and heavy armor, block cast, and not run out of resources. In a battleground scenario this group of 4 would never be able to be killed.

1224f5fd95.png @ZOS_RichLambert
There are a number of avenues we're looking at. We're not ready to talk in depth on the changes, but we're looking at things like: - CP power adjustments (or if we do CP at all in BG) - Item set adjustments - Regen adjustments - etc...
Ultimately we don't love these kinds of builds either.

pieratsos

EldritchPenguin wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

@Quigster
The devs in the eso live said this game was designed without cooldowns so you have to sustain ur resources. Managing resources was supposed to be a mitigating factor in build performance. Right now in PVP where you actually have to build sustain survivability and dmg in ur build there are people using only dmg sets and sustaining forever. And this happens mostly in CP campaigns. Even when they are playing solo where they have no support from anyone else. Which results to either people dying before they can react or not dying ever. And that is why battlegrounds will probably be without CP. In PVE everyone is stacking dmg, most content tactics is stack and burn and pulling the most amount of DPS is only about performing a perfect rotation. Whoever smashes the buttons quicker. There is nothing about player skill. Which is precisely the point why everything is a gear grind fest and people in this same thread are complaining about content requiring BiS gear to complete and its also precisely why top guilds have ridiculous DPS requirments to get invited.

The problem isnt that u cant ignore sustain. The problem is that there are people who can and instead of you being judged about ur skill and knowledge of game mechanics, u are being judged about the gear u wear and how fast u press buttons

The infinite sustain builds in PvP don't get to infinite sustain on CP alone. They get it from chaining together things like Redguard passives, Constitution, and Dark Deal, then stacking proc sets so that they can deal a substantial amount of damage without spending resources. So while their sustain might not be unlimited without CP, their builds will have such high sustain that, considering the duration of most one-on-one battles, it might as well be unlimited.

The PvE point about how the game is about stacking damage and mashing buttons as quickly as possible is a far more deeply seeded issue than "we have too much sustain." The issue is that PvE fights are scripted. There is a set list of things that the boss will be able to do, and this never changes. There are mechanics to follow, but the mechanics are absolutely the same whether it's your first time fighting the boss or your thousandth. So while PvP fights have times when you need to hold back your resources to avoid wasting them on a permablocker, playing defensively when you have to, picking the perfect moment to throw everything you have at the enemy, and so forth, PvE fights are fundamentally designed so that there is never (or at the very least, rarely) a time when it's not a good time to throw everything you have at the boss.

The result is that there is no skill to be learned in managing resources in PvE. The closest you get to learning to manage your resources is learning to heavy attack or go hunt down some synergies when you're empty, because the only time when the best strategy is not to hit the boss as hard as you can is when you need to dodge a mechanic to avoid certain death. The fact that there is no learnable skill in PvE resource management is true whether we have cost reduction CP or not, and this will not change unless the developers fundamentally redesign PvE fights so that there are times when you can attack the boss and times when you'd be wasting you resources. Sacrificing a huge amount of DPS to run sustain sets, or spending more time heavy attacking, does not make the players themselves learn to manage their resources. They don't learn anything from that, except for the fact that they have to figure out how to play the same content with lower DPS.

The reason why PvE fights are more about gear and stats than skill is because the PvE side of the game is built ground-up to be a numbers game more than a skill game. They could literally remove the Champion System from the game, and it would still be primarily a numbers game. Whether or not that's a bad thing is a completely different discussion, because numbers games and skill games appeal to wildly different audiences that both deserve to have their various itches scratched.

As far as PVP is concerned there is no doubt that CP is the major reason of infinite sustain. You mentioned constitution and heavy armor. Heavy armor doesnt have cost reduction. But you get it for free from CP which is actually a lot more effective on heavy than on medium and light cause medium and light already have cost reduction passives. Which is one of the reasons why heavy is so strong in PVP. CP gives free sustain that has no counter. Every passive u get from CP has a counter. Dmg, crit, heals, shields etc. Except sustain. Everyone runs around with free cost reduction and regen and you cant do anything about it. And all that sustain helps u build for more dmg. Which leads to that gameplay of either unkillable tanks or die before u can react.

As far as PVE is concerned, yes the fights are scripted and its just mechanics but still, the fact that u can use full dmg sets and throw everything u have without stopping untill the boss is dead just because u can sustain is one of the reasons of all that stack and burn tactics, skipping mechanics, making fights shorter which makes sustain irrelevant. Take the planar inhibitor for example. There was a time when we actually had to follow the mechanics. Kite the boss rotate pinions do the portals. Players were making all sorts of tactics to beat it. It just doesnt matter anymore. You dont have to do a single mechanic now. Just stack and burn it down before it gets to do anything. Or the three minibosses also in wgt. Who cares about splitting them anymore. Just stack them and burn them. And then new content has to be balanced around all that dmg by increasing the boss hp otherwise it would be too easy which pushes more and more the DPS race, the ceiling goes higher and higher and the gap between "casuals" and "elites" gets bigger. And while putting on a sustain set may not be active resource management its still something. You intentionally use a sustain set so u can sustain without having to spam heavy attacks. You lose DPS, the fights become longer, mechanics cant be skipped and the fights become better not requiring ridiculous amounts of DPS to complete. And while most of the fights may not have actually engaging mechanics and they are indeed boring there are still plenty of fights with good mechanics but they just dont matter cause you can skip them. Plenty of times when i pug vet dungeons and the groups are not that good i discover boss mechanics that i didnt even know about. Not because i didnt do the dungeons before. I did them a million times. I just didnt know about them cause they didnt matter.

Im not saying that removing cost reduction will make the game perfect. But no matter how u look at it, it gives free sustain that has nothing to do with player skill. Its just free stats. The content simply isnt designed for CP600. And they cant balance it around CP600 cause then it would be impossible to do for half the players. The combat effectiveness u get from CP has to be limited for both PVP and PVE. There is no other way. Its either that or softcaps.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

So, what do y'all think this change will do to the dueling meta?

Will we finally see Light/Medium armor builds making a comeback, or will Heavy still rule the day?

Tinus_92

Decrease CP influence, increase base stats. This way a CP600 player will continue to do the same damage, while lower CP players have less of an disadvantage.

If pvp still got issues - lower overall damage/sustain output pvp only.
If pve, veteran MA, dragonstar arena, trials & SotH dungeons, and their hardmodes especially, still is being completed by a small minority only. While the regular pve content is easy, indeed, nerfing overall damage and/or sustain will get issues.

pieratsos

Quigster wrote: »

This is spot-on accurate and something I have seen other developers grasp and implement in other MMOs. WoW is a decent example. Some of their end-game raid bosses began to have 'invulnerable" moments when combat would have to shift to adds and the player had to focus more on damage mitigation (staying out of the red, etc). If PvE combat was adjusted to accommodate mechanics such as this, the "infinite" resource management issue could become a non-issue.

However, I still stand by my belief that a blanket nerf to all vet characters is NOT how to address problems with excessive resources that "some" people have.

Both SOTH dungeons have bosses with invulnerable mechanics and yet the complaints are mostly about those two dungeons and more specifically about the bosses that have the invulnerable mechanics cause only those are actually the hard bosses.
Also, most of the content isnt purely single target. Most of the bosses have adds. But it doesnt even matter, you dont even have to focus the adds cause they will die from cleave dmg anw.

Morgul667

Generally speaking i think this is too much of a change and would be better if it was mitigated by some other factors. Increasing management is fun. Going through raid in heavy attack is not.

Players need to keep feeling progressing (after some adjustments to new patches). Feeling of regression is not fun and is source of demotivation.

Creating harder content for elite players would seem like a more natural and efficient answer to the problem.
Casual players can enjoy the game while being casual and hardcore gamers have hardore activities to enjoy

ADarklore

mewcatus wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

mewcatus wrote: »

I like to add, along with the nerf, will also come a rebalancing of sets. This means some real major adjustment would be coming. I am really excited as this really shakes up the meta and I look forward to tinkering with new builds.

Um, please enlighten me as to where ZOS said anything about rebalancing sets? I don't recall them ever stating this.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/332429/transcript-reddit-battlegrounds-aua-30-03-2017#latest

Read the First post, first few paragraphs.

In 4v4v4 battlegrounds How are you going to address certain groups of permablock guard builds (magplars in particular) that require about 8 people to kill them? Currently in open world pvp a group of 4 magplars can have each other guarded, each with 33k health and heavy armor, block cast, and not run out of resources. In a battleground scenario this group of 4 would never be able to be killed.

1224f5fd95.png @ZOS_RichLambert
There are a number of avenues we're looking at. We're not ready to talk in depth on the changes, but we're looking at things like: - CP power adjustments (or if we do CP at all in BG) - Item set adjustments - Regen adjustments - etc...
Ultimately we don't love these kinds of builds either.

You missed, "We do have adjustments coming to some sets, though it's not something we're discussing quite yet."

All of this came during a discussion about battlegrounds, and may or may not have anything to do with PvE sets and may also not involve adjusting any crafted sets and may only involve specific proc sets that the majority seem to be wearing. There was mention of complaints about people using only a handful of the existing sets and they aren't happy about that either. There was also talk of class 'balance' but we've heard this before and the balance we received was nothing spectacular and sometimes was even detrimental. So before I start cheering about your opinion of 'major adjustments' coming, I'll wait and see based upon ZOS' past history.

Ch4mpTW

Joy_Division wrote: »

Jitterbug wrote: »

Personally I have 4% cost reduction and 10% mag rec from CP and I have never gone oom in a vDung.

And you shouldn't if the healer is doing her job.

The issue is not every player has access to healers refilling their resource bars when questing alone or trying VMA

@Joy_Division Can you imagine if we could bring a healer along for VMA? LOL! Oh how lovely that would be. I won't even lie. I'd play a bit more risky, just for the fun of it. Lmao. "Oh, the lightning in the water on Stage 3? M'eh, the healer got me. Is that volatile poison on me from 1 of the plants on Stage 7? Healer got me covered, fam'."

mr_wazzabi

All they need to do is put a requirement to use 5 light armor for magician and 5 medium for warlord.

Done.

No more unkillable tank builds in pvp.

Pve unaffected.

Light and medium armor back in pvp.

Tabbycat

Dear ZOS, please stop ruining my PvE experience with your attempts at balancing PvP.

Pro Tip: PvP will NEVER be balanced.

Amayna

I'm not going to pre-order Morrowind until the dust settles on this issue, I already have problems with magicka sustain on my sorcerer even with 100 into magician and if it gets worse I won't be ordering at all

PvE should never effect PvP and vice versa!

mr_wazzabi

Amayna wrote: »

I'm not going to pre-order Morrowind until the dust settles on this issue, I already have problems with magicka sustain on my sorcerer even with 100 into magician and if it gets worse I won't be ordering at all

PvE should never effect PvP and vice versa!

Well said. I haven't preordered also because of this.