Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....
This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?
I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.
What people are crying about is the fact that the NB will buff prior to the strike, land the strike, and by the time the player can react it is already too late because they died server side 3ms earlier.
The issue is not that NBs or even proc sets are too strong, its the time aspect and level of preparedness. The gank starts 3 or 4 abilities before the target even knows they are at risk. When your opponent has that much of a head start, it will be difficult to recover.
I don't know why people take offense to that statement - see the bold. He's talking about how he views himself, not how he views others. If one doesn't get slower as they get older - great! If one does - that's a pretty normal part of life and there is no reason to be ashamed of it or to deny it.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
Most casuals what i've seen don't even have ESO+ -_-Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....
This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?
I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.
Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....
This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?
I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.
ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »Update 13 has been out on the PTS for almost a week now and there’s been a lot of good feedback and questions posted with regards to the balance changes. I wanted to take a few moments to briefly discuss the overall direction for these changes so you can hopefully start to see why these changes are occurring.
For Update 13, our overall goal was to lessen the gap between the top and bottom. (in terms of overall damage output, coordinated vs. uncoordinated, small and large scale PVE & PVP) This doesn’t mean all classes are perfectly equal in all ways or that we want to remove skill from the game. We want to establish a solid baseline so that we can better tune and tweak balance. For this update we attacked this problem from multiple angles by doing the following:
- Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
- Raising the floor on the bottom damage
- Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels
Some of you will probably ask how the above goals translate into the changes we made. Here are some notes on a couple of the more hotly debated ones so you can see how they fit into the bigger picture:
- Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.
- Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)
- Radiant Destruction – This one is definitely in the “lower the ceiling” category. It was strong in both PVE and PVP and needed adjustment.
- Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.
I didn't touch on every change or class, but I hope that sheds some light into how and why we've made some of the changes we've made. We have a lot more balance changes planned, but due to how our build cycle works, most of them won't make the next PTS build - they should hopefully make PTS3 though.
It should also be noted that what is on PTS now is our first pass at these changes. We’re evaluating all of them and will make adjustments based on both feedback and data collected, so please continue to test them on PTS and give feedback.
-rich
Are those rotations "simple" enough for the older gamer, but Sorc rotations are not?
I don't know why people take offense to that statement - see the bold. He's talking about how he views himself, not how he views others. If one doesn't get slower as they get older - great! If one does - that's a pretty normal part of life and there is no reason to be ashamed of it or to deny it.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »
You're missing the point if you think this actually has anything to do with the fact that older gamers exist. The underlying issue here is that the age demographic is being used to justify a change that impacts the entire community. Most people agree that ESO rotations are quite simple, and the more you compare these rotations to those of other games, the better you'll understand that it's true. I have many "older" gamers in my guild (ranging between 40-70 years) and not a single one of them believes ESO's rotations are too complex.
Not only is age (nor reaction timing for older individuals) an illogical justification for the intended change, but ZOS failed to apply this same logic to all classes. Sorc rotations are simpler than both DK and NB rotations, stamina and magicka alike. Yet both of those classes were..... completely ignored as it pertains to rotation.
So you see, there is an illogical justification backing a disorganized and inconsistent combat adjustment that fails to cater to the overall concept of balance. That is why people are irritated. It has nothing to do with the fact that Rich has a few notches on his belt. The case is even stronger still when we support it with the fact that "older" gamers only make up a small segment of the community. While I am not personally taking this strong of a stance, there are many who believe that Rich is implementing these changes based on his own personal preference for the game. If that were true, and I make no such accusations myself, it would be a very irresponsible approach to balance.
Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!
He said that he may need things "simplified" because he's "an older gamer and slower", but still thinks he should be entitled to be "playing games". There wasn't a generic statement about "older gamers" being "slower", or that he was basing anything in the game on his own opinion as a player who needed things "simplified" (but since he's responsible I would assume to some extent that he is). It was just an off-the-cuff response to a very general and ridiculous statement. I'm not reading anything more into it that what was written - but I looks like you may be.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?
This is what was said:Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!He said that he may need things "simplified" because he's "an older gamer and slower", but still thinks he should be entitled to be "playing games". There wasn't a generic statement about "older gamers" being "slower", or that he was basing anything in the game on his own opinion as a player who needed things "simplified" (but since he's responsible I would assume to some extent that he is). It was just an off-the-cuff response to a very general and ridiculous statement. I'm not reading anything more into it that what was written - but I looks like you may be.ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?
In my opinion, the "simplification" is more a part of the strategy that was stated - in this case "raising the floor", vs other cases where they are "lowering the ceiling". I say this without any comment on the validity of the strategy - just an observation of what has been said about it. I will say that I'm a mag sorc who currently uses curse in PvP, and barring any changes to what's on the PTS, I'll sadly replace it with a non-sorc skill when it goes live.
ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »Update 13 has been out on the PTS for almost a week now and there’s been a lot of good feedback and questions posted with regards to the balance changes. I wanted to take a few moments to briefly discuss the overall direction for these changes so you can hopefully start to see why these changes are occurring.
For Update 13, our overall goal was to lessen the gap between the top and bottom. (in terms of overall damage output, coordinated vs. uncoordinated, small and large scale PVE & PVP) This doesn’t mean all classes are perfectly equal in all ways or that we want to remove skill from the game. We want to establish a solid baseline so that we can better tune and tweak balance. For this update we attacked this problem from multiple angles by doing the following:
- Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
- Raising the floor on the bottom damage
- Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels
Some of you will probably ask how the above goals translate into the changes we made. Here are some notes on a couple of the more hotly debated ones so you can see how they fit into the bigger picture:
- Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.
- Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)
- Radiant Destruction – This one is definitely in the “lower the ceiling” category. It was strong in both PVE and PVP and needed adjustment.
- Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.
I didn't touch on every change or class, but I hope that sheds some light into how and why we've made some of the changes we've made. We have a lot more balance changes planned, but due to how our build cycle works, most of them won't make the next PTS build - they should hopefully make PTS3 though.
It should also be noted that what is on PTS now is our first pass at these changes. We’re evaluating all of them and will make adjustments based on both feedback and data collected, so please continue to test them on PTS and give feedback.
-rich
You're going the way of DCUO. Don't go down that road. You will regret it.
Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....
This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?
I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.
Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....
This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?
I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.
Typically what happens before an MMO dies and falls into obscurity. the hardcore players leave, the content creators leave, newer plays don't stick around and new hardcore players don't stay long because there is no one to compete with.
i understand why the first would try this. but it doens't ends well, so i don't understand why developers keep trying it.
ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.
Rich runs 3 proc sets he don't care he knows perfectly well this change will do nothing but that doesn't matter to him he gets easy kills in pvp so he fine with them still being broken.RoamingRiverElk wrote: »ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.
We know that it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you. That is why we are saying that this change to the proc sets isn't enough.
Please justify this....i beg you....he came out of stealth as i was feared by another NB. I had no time to react....I have 3126 crit resist on my magDK a friend of mine took a 27k one on his mag sorc he was instantly killed on his mount.
Mr. Lamberts statement quite confirmed my decision to stop anything "progess" related in this game. Why put any time or effort into becoming better at what you do (be it through skill improvement or praying to RNGsus), if it gets nerfed away anyway?
I feel quite smacked in the face now for putting time and effort into this game. It double hurts cause I quite like(d) this game.
Mr. Lambert, you don't do things like this to your veteran players. You just don't.
Joy_Division wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.
Can we please stop this misinformation?
Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.
So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.
Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.
Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).
Edit: I will later post a screenshot.
Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.
2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.
I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?
NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.
Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.
This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.
How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.
All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.
I get it you're trying to make this sound reasonable, but just stop. No he technically didn't take 10 seconds to kill me. If you think my time to react started when he started he gap close, you don't know how NBs gank. Google animation cancelling and then watch any Sribes video. Extended ritual procs every 2 seconds ... it didn't proc again before I died. I got stunned. I cc broke. I died before heal went off. If this didn't happen, I wouldn't lie about it. Some executes in this game are "instant," in that if the skill will kill you, you die before the animations play out. Everyone thinks this is just an RD issue but ask any sorc who use Mage's Wrath. Targets explode before I'm even done pressing the button.
Yes I had >2K Crit resistance and yes damage is out of control. Heavy armor is also out of control. In ZoS's weird way this is somehow "balanced" because offense and defense are both strong, but it's just a stupid arms race of who can abuse what mechanic the most. It's dumb. I am very disappointed ZoS did nothing about this and I wish people would stop apologizing over these abusive mechanics or ZoS's inaction.
Just pointing out that last time i checked, all activations in ESO are on key-release not key-press, so technically your statement i bolded is factually impossible.
If ZOS nerfs anything this patch, I hope they nerf people's ability to pettifog and make zero value-added "technical" observations that ignore the inherent fluidity and obvious hyperbole existent in the way normal people speak.
We all know what @Joy_Division meant. He was saying that Mages Fury is very strong and near instantaneous. Your technical breakdown of the way he phrased that observation adds a sum total of NOTHING to the conversation and just derails it.
The purpose of communication is to convey meaning, not to be "technically correct." Use context clues or ask a friend to interpret if you aren't culturally socialized enough to understand the real meaning behind the words.
My guess however, is that you do actually understand and you just like to argue for the sheer sake of arguing. However, you are simply being petty and contrary and not really responsive to the argument presented.
The evidence presented was that the way game mechanics and ganking works, the Time to Kill is still really low, and certain executes add to that. There are helpful and value-added ways to counter that argument but you need to present your own evidence if you wish to try. If you know of a way to survive a gank build like that without radiant magelight, defensive rune or a clairvoyant add-on, please enlighten us.
It's apparent to most of us that play day to day in cyrodiil that the proc set crit nerf will do nothing to change the FPS style low time to kill that is making this game feel more like counterstrike than an Elder Scolls Game.
isnt the whole point of pvp is to play counterstrike, but with swords and magic?If people want slow paced strategic competition, might i recommend a good game of chess instead?
They cannot fix the inherent issue of ganking without completely rewriting the nb class. The class is designed for one purpose: Buff>Stealth>Kill. If it is nerfed any further it would be: Buff>stealth>Annoy>respawn... NB is already the weakest class in terms of pve dps, nerf them anymore and their hits will heal the mobs...
People were getting ganked before the proc sets, its not something that is new. Its not going to go away as long as there is a class specifically designed to gank.
There is a fine line between having a potent "gank" build capable of delivering a lot of up front damage to gain the upper hand in a fight and just insta-killing an opponent.
The "I play an assassin, I deserve to get a kill" crowd only ever pays attention to their class, not their target. OK, you play a gank class designed to kill. But I play a "tank" designed to survive. Why is the tank build someone invalidated or trumped by the "assassin"? Because "assassins" have more twitch views, are generally perceived as being cooler, and would sell more games?
And the whole, "well, if I fail a gank I'm helpless" routine is a joke. NBs are not helpless face to face fighters, do they even know what Surprise attack, Shadow barrier, and Siphoning attacks do? And this game allows these same nightblades to access the things they are missing from their class trees, whether it's HoTs, Dizzying Swing, and, of course, the stupid proc sets for more damage. The "I'm helpless" routine is just a disingenuous reference to other games where "assassins" really are bad at face to face fighting.
Joy_Division wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.
Can we please stop this misinformation?
Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.
So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.
Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.
Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).
Edit: I will later post a screenshot.
Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.
2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.
I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?
NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.
Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.
This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.
How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.
All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.
I get it you're trying to make this sound reasonable, but just stop. No he technically didn't take 10 seconds to kill me. If you think my time to react started when he started he gap close, you don't know how NBs gank. Google animation cancelling and then watch any Sribes video. Extended ritual procs every 2 seconds ... it didn't proc again before I died. I got stunned. I cc broke. I died before heal went off. If this didn't happen, I wouldn't lie about it. Some executes in this game are "instant," in that if the skill will kill you, you die before the animations play out. Everyone thinks this is just an RD issue but ask any sorc who use Mage's Wrath. Targets explode before I'm even done pressing the button.
Yes I had >2K Crit resistance and yes damage is out of control. Heavy armor is also out of control. In ZoS's weird way this is somehow "balanced" because offense and defense are both strong, but it's just a stupid arms race of who can abuse what mechanic the most. It's dumb. I am very disappointed ZoS did nothing about this and I wish people would stop apologizing over these abusive mechanics or ZoS's inaction.
Just pointing out that last time i checked, all activations in ESO are on key-release not key-press, so technically your statement i bolded is factually impossible.
If ZOS nerfs anything this patch, I hope they nerf people's ability to pettifog and make zero value-added "technical" observations that ignore the inherent fluidity and obvious hyperbole existent in the way normal people speak.
We all know what @Joy_Division meant. He was saying that Mages Fury is very strong and near instantaneous. Your technical breakdown of the way he phrased that observation adds a sum total of NOTHING to the conversation and just derails it.
The purpose of communication is to convey meaning, not to be "technically correct." Use context clues or ask a friend to interpret if you aren't culturally socialized enough to understand the real meaning behind the words.
My guess however, is that you do actually understand and you just like to argue for the sheer sake of arguing. However, you are simply being petty and contrary and not really responsive to the argument presented.
The evidence presented was that the way game mechanics and ganking works, the Time to Kill is still really low, and certain executes add to that. There are helpful and value-added ways to counter that argument but you need to present your own evidence if you wish to try. If you know of a way to survive a gank build like that without radiant magelight, defensive rune or a clairvoyant add-on, please enlighten us.
It's apparent to most of us that play day to day in cyrodiil that the proc set crit nerf will do nothing to change the FPS style low time to kill that is making this game feel more like counterstrike than an Elder Scolls Game.
isnt the whole point of pvp is to play counterstrike, but with swords and magic?If people want slow paced strategic competition, might i recommend a good game of chess instead?
They cannot fix the inherent issue of ganking without completely rewriting the nb class. The class is designed for one purpose: Buff>Stealth>Kill. If it is nerfed any further it would be: Buff>stealth>Annoy>respawn... NB is already the weakest class in terms of pve dps, nerf them anymore and their hits will heal the mobs...
People were getting ganked before the proc sets, its not something that is new. Its not going to go away as long as there is a class specifically designed to gank.
There is a fine line between having a potent "gank" build capable of delivering a lot of up front damage to gain the upper hand in a fight and just insta-killing an opponent.
The "I play an assassin, I deserve to get a kill" crowd only ever pays attention to their class, not their target. OK, you play a gank class designed to kill. But I play a "tank" designed to survive. Why is the tank build someone invalidated or trumped by the "assassin"? Because "assassins" have more twitch views, are generally perceived as being cooler, and would sell more games?
And the whole, "well, if I fail a gank I'm helpless" routine is a joke. NBs are not helpless face to face fighters, do they even know what Surprise attack, Shadow barrier, and Siphoning attacks do? And this game allows these same nightblades to access the things they are missing from their class trees, whether it's HoTs, Dizzying Swing, and, of course, the stupid proc sets for more damage. The "I'm helpless" routine is just a disingenuous reference to other games where "assassins" really are bad at face to face fighting.
You were killed instantly by animation cancelling and bad latency.
old_mufasa wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »BlackMadara wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.
Can we please stop this misinformation?
Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.
So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.
Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.
Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).
Edit: I will later post a screenshot.
Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.
2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.
I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?
NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.
Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.
This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.
How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.
All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.
I get it you're trying to make this sound reasonable, but just stop. No he technically didn't take 10 seconds to kill me. If you think my time to react started when he started he gap close, you don't know how NBs gank. Google animation cancelling and then watch any Sribes video. Extended ritual procs every 2 seconds ... it didn't proc again before I died. I got stunned. I cc broke. I died before heal went off. If this didn't happen, I wouldn't lie about it. Some executes in this game are "instant," in that if the skill will kill you, you die before the animations play out. Everyone thinks this is just an RD issue but ask any sorc who use Mage's Wrath. Targets explode before I'm even done pressing the button.
Yes I had >2K Crit resistance and yes damage is out of control. Heavy armor is also out of control. In ZoS's weird way this is somehow "balanced" because offense and defense are both strong, but it's just a stupid arms race of who can abuse what mechanic the most. It's dumb. I am very disappointed ZoS did nothing about this and I wish people would stop apologizing over these abusive mechanics or ZoS's inaction.
Just pointing out that last time i checked, all activations in ESO are on key-release not key-press, so technically your statement i bolded is factually impossible.
If ZOS nerfs anything this patch, I hope they nerf people's ability to pettifog and make zero value-added "technical" observations that ignore the inherent fluidity and obvious hyperbole existent in the way normal people speak.
We all know what @Joy_Division meant. He was saying that Mages Fury is very strong and near instantaneous. Your technical breakdown of the way he phrased that observation adds a sum total of NOTHING to the conversation and just derails it.
The purpose of communication is to convey meaning, not to be "technically correct." Use context clues or ask a friend to interpret if you aren't culturally socialized enough to understand the real meaning behind the words.
My guess however, is that you do actually understand and you just like to argue for the sheer sake of arguing. However, you are simply being petty and contrary and not really responsive to the argument presented.
The evidence presented was that the way game mechanics and ganking works, the Time to Kill is still really low, and certain executes add to that. There are helpful and value-added ways to counter that argument but you need to present your own evidence if you wish to try. If you know of a way to survive a gank build like that without radiant magelight, defensive rune or a clairvoyant add-on, please enlighten us.
It's apparent to most of us that play day to day in cyrodiil that the proc set crit nerf will do nothing to change the FPS style low time to kill that is making this game feel more like counterstrike than an Elder Scolls Game.
isnt the whole point of pvp is to play counterstrike, but with swords and magic?If people want slow paced strategic competition, might i recommend a good game of chess instead?
They cannot fix the inherent issue of ganking without completely rewriting the nb class. The class is designed for one purpose: Buff>Stealth>Kill. If it is nerfed any further it would be: Buff>stealth>Annoy>respawn... NB is already the weakest class in terms of pve dps, nerf them anymore and their hits will heal the mobs...
People were getting ganked before the proc sets, its not something that is new. Its not going to go away as long as there is a class specifically designed to gank.
There is a fine line between having a potent "gank" build capable of delivering a lot of up front damage to gain the upper hand in a fight and just insta-killing an opponent.
The "I play an assassin, I deserve to get a kill" crowd only ever pays attention to their class, not their target. OK, you play a gank class designed to kill. But I play a "tank" designed to survive. Why is the tank build someone invalidated or trumped by the "assassin"? Because "assassins" have more twitch views, are generally perceived as being cooler, and would sell more games?
And the whole, "well, if I fail a gank I'm helpless" routine is a joke. NBs are not helpless face to face fighters, do they even know what Surprise attack, Shadow barrier, and Siphoning attacks do? And this game allows these same nightblades to access the things they are missing from their class trees, whether it's HoTs, Dizzying Swing, and, of course, the stupid proc sets for more damage. The "I'm helpless" routine is just a disingenuous reference to other games where "assassins" really are bad at face to face fighting.
You were killed instantly by animation cancelling and bad latency.
This right here is a bulk of the issue.. so many nerfs and exploits do to animation cancelling and lag exploits... they just need to code it so that damage is only done after the animation competes and adjust skills and damage accordingly... I know easier said then done.. but if they really want to get a handle on balance in the game.. that's one of the big stumbling blocks.
Honestly it really isn't that hard to just practice rotations and theorycraft your build, the new skeleton in this patch actually makes this even easier than it used to be.
Evasion: Casting this ability and its morphs now requires that you wear 5 pieces of Medium Armor.
Just so disappointing that this is the direction you guys want to go with...
*Raising the floor - Perfect, some abilities needed it.....although I'm not sure what changes you've made that actually accomplish this, even in your examples noted above none of them fell into this category.
*Simplifying - Why.....just why. If a player wants to reach a higher potential for their class/build, they need to PRACTICE. So many people think that they will output maximum DPS just by getting that one last piece in divines trait, or by using spell power potions. In reality however, though these may help, the really big changes in damage output come from mastering your rotations, with PRACTICE. Simplifying it is just allowing players who refuse to practice to reach the same sort of level that actual dedicated players can....defeats the whole purpose of trying to master your class since eventually ZoS will just baby-feed you up to par. This is a slippery slope...
*Lowering the ceiling - While there may be some skills that need a SLIGHT nerf (although this patch has apparently taken this to an entirely new level......goodness) this SHOULD NOT be some kind of goal you guys have. Once again where is the point in attempting to maximize my damage output or healing if its just going to be "hardcapped" by the next big patch. This is like trying to run an Olympic sprint knowing that halfway down the track your are going to get your feet tied together because you are too good and newer/less dedicated players can't keep up.
Honestly it really isn't that hard to just practice rotations and theorycraft your build, the new skeleton in this patch actually makes this even easier than it used to be. Put in the time, and you WILL progress in this game.....don't need ZoS to tie down the dedicated players just so new ones can feel better.