Balance direction in Update 13

xSkullfox

My answer:

Dracane

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable in pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

You should better not try out medium armor if you think that you are squishy with a shield on a 50-60k max magicka build...
I know that you are a very, very good player and probably the best petsorc (or maybe even the best sorc) in the world but all I see from your posts is that you want your build to be buffed more and more and more. I've played all classes (mag and stam) on PTS and petsorc is one of the most broken builds that I have ever played so far. AoE is insane (destro ult + pets), you are extremely tanky because 50k+ max magicka boosts your shield into oblivion and you can now block with a frost staff on top that and you are very lethal in duels too. My medium armor nb is completely *** compared to that and so are many other (mag and stam) builds. I know that it can be frustrating to fight against heavy armor Redguards but it's the same on almost every medium armor build for example.
I don't believe that it is in your interest that petsorc becomes fotm (they are actually on the best way to become fotm) and that everyone starts playing one (I do actually hate when my class becomes fotm).

@Ragnaroek93

No, I know that medium armor suffers just the same. I also said, that they need to buff both.
Light armor relies on perfect shield up time, medium armor relies on mobility and staying evasive.

I don't say this for myself, as I can manage the squishiness fairly well. But this is only due to me being experienced totally focused on the gameplay. Many don't play this way and they stand no chance when they are on light armor, they get eaten up by everyone

And you're right, I want petsorc to stay niche, I always wanted it to be hard to play. And I know that frost staff will allow for completely broken builds.

Ah my bad, didn't saw that you want to buff medium armor as well. I don't think that medium and light needs a buff, just that heavy armor needs a nerf.
I see problems with petsorc on PTS because most people won't play without a second shield and hp food like you do. At the moment the PTS is filled with petsorcs and I have actually problems to take them down, because even bad players can survive very easily with froststaff, shieldstacking and a 50k+ magicka pool. I don't have any problems against them as soon as I come as petsorc as well sadly.

I know. Shieldstacking on a pet build is pathetic. The only light is, that they don't have much space. If they add another shield, they will loose lots of offense.

However, frost staff is very unbalanced.
But pet builds are the easiest to counter, so don't forsake. Each class has tools to shut them down. Sorcs can use rune cage and encase on the familiar, nightblades can use uhm is it maleficant wrath that disorients ? And they have fear.
DK can use petrify and talons and templar..... well just spam the most overpowered spammable puncturing sweeps and your sorrows are gone.

Just shut down the familiar and a pet sorcerer will be unable to kill you ever again.

Grileenor

What about:

Pixel_Zealot

No. MMO's are about starting on level 1 and doing 5 dps to Mudcrabs, and then finally getting to end came content after months of hard work and critting that final boss 50k. Lowering the ceiling and raising the floor, you might as well ban your top tier players and start marketing free subscriptions to MOBA players in Grade School. It's not about making the new players comfortable and giving them a safe space to work in, it's about throwing them in the deep-end until they're strong enough to swim circles and giving them a chance to get that sense of achievement after the long grind.

Why are you hurting your current player base to appeal to new-players when they've spent years perfecting their play-style, where most of the new players won't support it for longer than a few months? This direction was a terrible decision.

Pixel_Zealot

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

He said simplified, not older or slower.

Simplified and MMO RPG does not belong in the same sentence. If you're and older, slower gamer, who enjoys a simplified game, then Solitaire is just for you!

But if you're an older, slower gamer who appreciates a game which makes you consider a variety of contributing factors before making decisions and certain actions then MMO's are the place to be.

JinMori

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

EcruteakCity wrote: »

Stop incentivizing players to not work for things. Lowering the skill cap of the game is negative for the entire community. By not encouraging players to get better at the game content will only get increasingly difficult for them to complete. I understand that making a game more accessible from a marketing perspective is smart, however the new customers will not find a challenge when they reach end game. What does this approach imply for further trials or dungeons? Why punish players who have mastered their rotations or strategies around the current end game mechanics. In my opinion make the rewards for playing the game better more appealing to encourage the players who you believe need things simplified to actually get better. Sincerely someone who's had no challenge in this game for months.

Having two players with the same gear and level and wildly different DPS outputs due to the skill required to make DPS effective is negative for the entire community as well. It means less people do group content because the group content isn't populated by people who know what the crap their doing, both from vets tired of finding pugs and just grouping in guild and alienating new players who've figured out it needs to go faster.

So many hardcore or 'veteran' players are decrying these changes as dumbing the game down, and saying it has no challenge are the people who've allready done Shadows of the Hist Hardmode like 30 times and who've allready done the dance. In many cases as well, they allready clicked with the system so exploiting it wasn't that hard. It's not that they -care-, it's that they want to keep bragging. They want for their 'git gud' to still have weight.

To complain the game is dumbing down and that it isn't geting harder for your sake is selfish and entitled. This is for the betterment of the game and it needs it. Welcome to progress. Power creep needs culled, this Learning cliff needs filed down to a learning curve, and if the cliff is what you loved, consider that maybe a MMO truely isn't for you. Because it seems you focus more on you, than group needs or game needs.

Having two people with same gears and different dps is called effort, saying that people who are bad should be rewarded simply because they are in the game is selfish and entitled.....
Dude, if one is better he will archive more, simple as that. I'm gonna make a comparison.
Look at politics, when we focus too much on the collective, we have socialism, and then many times socialism has become communism remember Stalin? Instead when we focus not only on the collective but also on the person we have democracy, and all the good things it has brought to us, Judge for yourself. Dumbing down the game is not progress, it's just stupid, remember what happened to Warlords of Draenor when blizzard started appealing too much to casuals? Because i sure do.
the problem is that if you don't have anything interesting in your game, people will get in, play for a few weeks and then leave rinse and repeat, there must be some content that keeps the player there otherwise it will never become a good game.

caeliusstarbreaker

DHale wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Btw I am over 40 I play in an elite pvp guild. It's not ZOS s job to dumb down the game for me it's my job to catch up. Besides I am a Infantry Marine Irl it's not really hard to catch up with the youngsters.

GOOD THING YOU DONT NEED KNEES TO PLAY ESO.

#gruntlife

It's my back.... my back dog. #0311 life. Not so lean, no longer mean, still... a marine.

@DHale
As an infantry Doc I can safely say that you must merely change your socks, drink water and take Motrin.

Joy_Division

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

kojou

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

I really appreciate that the developer's focus is on these aspects of the game. I think you are on the right direction here, but if I could throw in my 2 cents I think there is a simpler solution here. To put it simply the best way to make DPS more user friendly for new players, just standardize the DoT timings.

I have recently been learning Magicka Dragon Knight and as an example you have these timings to deal with:

Skills Duration
Engulfing Flames 10.0
Eruption 18.0
Burning Embers 10.5
Flames of Oblivion 15.0
Elemental Blockade 8.0
Destructive Clench 8.0
Molten Armaments 39.6

If you use the "LCM" function in Excel (finds the lowest common denominator) for those timings you get 4680. That means you would have to come up with a rotation that has 4680 weaves to have all your DoTs and Molten Armaments up 100% which makes the DPS rotation very complicated.

I would say that most players are like me and basically round off the timings and know that some DoTs will just drop off, and just try to keep the best ones up 100%.

So, if we take a hypothetical situation and standardize the DoT Timings we can make rotations much simpler for new players to figure out. So lets say a weave (medium attack + skill) takes a new player 1.5 seconds and we have 6 DoTs and one buff in our Magi-DK example above that we want to keep up. With a 1.5 second weave 4 skills will take about 6 seconds, so I think standardizing on multiples of 6 makes the most sense. If you standardize the medium DoT skills to 12 seconds and the longer skills to 24 your DPS rotation goes from a crazy rotation where nothing lines up to something like:

Skills Duration
Engulfing Flames 12
Eruption 24
Burning Embers 12
Flames of Oblivion 24
Elemental Blockade 12
Destructive Clench 12
Molten Armaments 24

With timings like this a player can look at the rotation and realize that Eruption, Flames of Oblivion, and Molten Arms get cast once, then Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers, Elemental Blockade, and Destructive Clench get cast twice and the same pattern repeats with a "spammable" to fill out the full 12 second duration.

If you leave the amount of damage for each cast the same then the overall DPS is not increased for the highest tier players, but new players can figure out the rotations much easier and do more DPS sooner.

Obviously there are other considerations for each class, but I would propose that you standardize with short DoT's being 6 seconds for a "Short DoT", 12 Seconds for a "Medium DoT" and 24 seconds for all buffs and long duration DoT's. If you make this change then the least common denominator in a rotation becomes 24 instead of 4680 which to me is a lot easier to manage.

I don't know what level of programming it takes to change the seconds for a duration, but I can't imagine it is as hard as some of the other changes that are being made for "Raising the floor on the bottom damage" for newer and less skilled players.

JinMori

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

My honest opinion, nightblade damage buff from stealth should be removed, it's cancerous to the game, and in my opinion they should remove crit from proc sets only in pvp. I am not really an expert on pvp so i will stop here if you have a much better suggestion, i gladly accept it, since i would like to try pvp sometimes without getting ganked or zerged.

leepalmer95

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

I really appreciate that the developer's focus is on these aspects of the game. I think you are on the right direction here, but if I could throw in my 2 cents I think there is a simpler solution here. To put it simply the best way to make DPS more user friendly for new players, just standardize the DoT timings.

I have recently been learning Magicka Dragon Knight and as an example you have these timings to deal with:

Skills Duration
Engulfing Flames 10.0
Eruption 18.0
Burning Embers 10.5
Flames of Oblivion 15.0
Elemental Blockade 8.0
Destructive Clench 8.0
Molten Armaments 39.6

If you use the "LCM" function in Excel (finds the lowest common denominator) for those timings you get 4680. That means you would have to come up with a rotation that has 4680 weaves to have all your DoTs and Molten Armaments up 100% which makes the DPS rotation very complicated.

I would say that most players are like me and basically round off the timings and know that some DoTs will just drop off, and just try to keep the best ones up 100%.

So, if we take a hypothetical situation and standardize the DoT Timings we can make rotations much simpler for new players to figure out. So lets say a weave (medium attack + skill) takes a new player 1.5 seconds and we have 6 DoTs and one buff in our Magi-DK example above that we want to keep up. With a 1.5 second weave 4 skills will take about 6 seconds, so I think standardizing on multiples of 6 makes the most sense. If you standardize the medium DoT skills to 12 seconds and the longer skills to 24 your DPS rotation goes from a crazy rotation where nothing lines up to something like:

Skills Duration
Engulfing Flames 12
Eruption 24
Burning Embers 12
Flames of Oblivion 24
Elemental Blockade 12
Destructive Clench 12
Molten Armaments 24

With timings like this a player can look at the rotation and realize that Eruption, Flames of Oblivion, and Molten Arms get cast once, then Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers, Elemental Blockade, and Destructive Clench get cast twice and the same pattern repeats with a "spammable" to fill out the full 12 second duration.

If you leave the amount of damage for each cast the same then the overall DPS is not increased for the highest tier players, but new players can figure out the rotations much easier and do more DPS sooner.

Obviously there are other considerations for each class, but I would propose that you standardize with short DoT's being 6 seconds for a "Short DoT", 12 Seconds for a "Medium DoT" and 24 seconds for all buffs and long duration DoT's. If you make this change then the least common denominator in a rotation becomes 24 instead of 4680 which to me is a lot easier to manage.

I don't know what level of programming it takes to change the seconds for a duration, but I can't imagine it is as hard as some of the other changes that are being made for "Raising the floor on the bottom damage" for newer and less skilled players.

You could simplify it by not having so many skills you don't need.

Moltan?
Clench?

Pinja

Pixel_Zealot wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

He said simplified, not older or slower.

Simplified and MMO RPG does not belong in the same sentence. If you're and older, slower gamer, who enjoys a simplified game, then Solitaire is just for you!

But if you're an older, slower gamer who appreciates a game which makes you consider a variety of contributing factors before making decisions and certain actions then MMO's are the place to be.

Can't you just add a 'gentler' battleground, which transforms your chararter into another static baseless form. For which you may be able to find a lore-full explanation. Rather then restrain else.

kojou

leepalmer95 wrote: »

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

I really appreciate that the developer's focus is on these aspects of the game. I think you are on the right direction here, but if I could throw in my 2 cents I think there is a simpler solution here. To put it simply the best way to make DPS more user friendly for new players, just standardize the DoT timings.

I have recently been learning Magicka Dragon Knight and as an example you have these timings to deal with:

Skills Duration
Engulfing Flames 10.0
Eruption 18.0
Burning Embers 10.5
Flames of Oblivion 15.0
Elemental Blockade 8.0
Destructive Clench 8.0
Molten Armaments 39.6

If you use the "LCM" function in Excel (finds the lowest common denominator) for those timings you get 4680. That means you would have to come up with a rotation that has 4680 weaves to have all your DoTs and Molten Armaments up 100% which makes the DPS rotation very complicated.

I would say that most players are like me and basically round off the timings and know that some DoTs will just drop off, and just try to keep the best ones up 100%.

So, if we take a hypothetical situation and standardize the DoT Timings we can make rotations much simpler for new players to figure out. So lets say a weave (medium attack + skill) takes a new player 1.5 seconds and we have 6 DoTs and one buff in our Magi-DK example above that we want to keep up. With a 1.5 second weave 4 skills will take about 6 seconds, so I think standardizing on multiples of 6 makes the most sense. If you standardize the medium DoT skills to 12 seconds and the longer skills to 24 your DPS rotation goes from a crazy rotation where nothing lines up to something like:

Skills Duration
Engulfing Flames 12
Eruption 24
Burning Embers 12
Flames of Oblivion 24
Elemental Blockade 12
Destructive Clench 12
Molten Armaments 24

With timings like this a player can look at the rotation and realize that Eruption, Flames of Oblivion, and Molten Arms get cast once, then Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers, Elemental Blockade, and Destructive Clench get cast twice and the same pattern repeats with a "spammable" to fill out the full 12 second duration.

If you leave the amount of damage for each cast the same then the overall DPS is not increased for the highest tier players, but new players can figure out the rotations much easier and do more DPS sooner.

Obviously there are other considerations for each class, but I would propose that you standardize with short DoT's being 6 seconds for a "Short DoT", 12 Seconds for a "Medium DoT" and 24 seconds for all buffs and long duration DoT's. If you make this change then the least common denominator in a rotation becomes 24 instead of 4680 which to me is a lot easier to manage.

I don't know what level of programming it takes to change the seconds for a duration, but I can't imagine it is as hard as some of the other changes that are being made for "Raising the floor on the bottom damage" for newer and less skilled players.

You could simplify it by not having so many skills you don't need.

Moltan?
Clench?

I like Molten, I use heavy attacks for sustain on long fights and it saves potions when I run 4 man content.

You are right about leaving off Clench though. I don't use it, I was just considering it in the example since it was another available DoT, but I might if using it in the rotation was simplified since it would be more DPS.

sinz_xb16_ESO

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)

@ZOS_RichLambert - Please, all Magicka Templars who value PvP and the harder solo content in this game unanimously agree that removing the stun from Blazing Spear is a huge mistake. We have no reliable CC otherwise and in PvP it's already very hard for us to setup burst combinations. Blazing Spear allows us to land our combo succesfully and hitting our enemy with our Sweeps.

Removing the CC component will make the skill unusable in smaller scale combat (PvP) because it's very easy to walk out of. The skill needs good enemy movement prediction to land and it requires the stun to actually get a few seconds of damage ticks out of it that we combine with the damage from our Sweeps and other DoTs. The way it is now is PERFECT, because it rewards skillful play. All other classes have acces to a reliable and easy to land stuns to be used in PvP (Fear, Fossilize, Crystal Fragments), but Templars are a bit behind on that department.

Removing it will force us to rely on Toppling Charge, which is INCREDIBLY clunky to use and doesn't work up close and personal. The Javelin is counter productive to use for Magicka Templars, because the enemy is being knocked back out of our Sweeps range.

Will we have no reliable CC left, and no burst setup. PLEASE change your minds on this one.

Akimbro

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

There's really no point in trying anymore. It has been explained many times in numerous threads and ZOS and these others won't listen. People who think PVP will be fixed now either don't PVP or don't run the numbers. They're trying to solve problems with the wrong solutions and not addressing the real issues. Just when I thought the game was starting to take a step in the right direction, ZOS takes it two steps back.

GorraShatan

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

You don't enjoy a challenge though? (I'm thinking yes based on some of the content you designed lol).

Obviously a lot of these changes do make content more challenging for top level players, but keep in mind people like a sense of achievement from that challenge too. I think rolling back the power creep a bit and working on item and skill balance is great, but when you start talking about trying to close the gap between new and skilled players it triggers alarm bells with us because it makes us wonder about the dev's priorities. The reality is that the learning and gear curve for new players to get to a relatively competitive level isn't that bad.

caperon

First of all, thanks @ZOS_RichLambert for sharing the devs vision here. I think that this kind of post more often would reduce the backlash of the patch notes changes or even could be included on each patch note, like League of Legends balance patches.

---

I understand the changes aimed to reduce the dps, PVE power creep is a real problem. This includes horn changes, removing crit from proc sets, diferent changes to diferent classes or skills... BUT this doesn't adress the ROOT OF ALL EVIL: The Champion System. With its multiplicative effect and insane scale (up to 25% is just too much) power creep will be a problem each CP limit increase. I think ZOS should rethink the CP system, the game has been really unbalanced since we got CP.

Some of the posible solutions i see are this:

- Reduce the bonus from CP stars. 25% is too much. 10% at 100CP would be reasonable and would limit the multiplicative efect. This should be done star by star, some CP passives are underused, so don't need be nerfed or be nerfed less. Another option would be change the curve of the dimishing returns, right now is qute like a line atsome point.

- Add soft caps again, less restrictive than at launch. This would allow to some more build diversity too.

- Invest in the game to provide content at the same rate of the power creep. Sadly I don't think ZOS is interested on this kind of busines model (World of Warcraft).

About proc sets, i think that a blanket nerf was not required, some combinations are the ones that cause problems in PVP, like viper + tremor/velidreth or Illambirs and Grothdar overperforming in PVE. A more gentle aproach set by set wouldn't hurt so much sets that are weak right now and will be useless after the patch. Another option was put a global cooldown for set procs, like we have with skills. Right now you can do way more damage with proc sets than with skills in PVP.

STEVIL

ztyhurstub17_ESO wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

I really appreciate that the developer's focus is on these aspects of the game. I think you are on the right direction here, but if I could throw in my 2 cents I think there is a simpler solution here. To put it simply the best way to make DPS more user friendly for new players, just standardize the DoT timings.

I have recently been learning Magicka Dragon Knight and as an example you have these timings to deal with:

Skills Duration
Engulfing Flames 10.0
Eruption 18.0
Burning Embers 10.5
Flames of Oblivion 15.0
Elemental Blockade 8.0
Destructive Clench 8.0
Molten Armaments 39.6

If you use the "LCM" function in Excel (finds the lowest common denominator) for those timings you get 4680. That means you would have to come up with a rotation that has 4680 weaves to have all your DoTs and Molten Armaments up 100% which makes the DPS rotation very complicated.

I would say that most players are like me and basically round off the timings and know that some DoTs will just drop off, and just try to keep the best ones up 100%.

So, if we take a hypothetical situation and standardize the DoT Timings we can make rotations much simpler for new players to figure out. So lets say a weave (medium attack + skill) takes a new player 1.5 seconds and we have 6 DoTs and one buff in our Magi-DK example above that we want to keep up. With a 1.5 second weave 4 skills will take about 6 seconds, so I think standardizing on multiples of 6 makes the most sense. If you standardize the medium DoT skills to 12 seconds and the longer skills to 24 your DPS rotation goes from a crazy rotation where nothing lines up to something like:

Skills Duration
Engulfing Flames 12
Eruption 24
Burning Embers 12
Flames of Oblivion 24
Elemental Blockade 12
Destructive Clench 12
Molten Armaments 24

With timings like this a player can look at the rotation and realize that Eruption, Flames of Oblivion, and Molten Arms get cast once, then Engulfing Flames, Burning Embers, Elemental Blockade, and Destructive Clench get cast twice and the same pattern repeats with a "spammable" to fill out the full 12 second duration.

If you leave the amount of damage for each cast the same then the overall DPS is not increased for the highest tier players, but new players can figure out the rotations much easier and do more DPS sooner.

Obviously there are other considerations for each class, but I would propose that you standardize with short DoT's being 6 seconds for a "Short DoT", 12 Seconds for a "Medium DoT" and 24 seconds for all buffs and long duration DoT's. If you make this change then the least common denominator in a rotation becomes 24 instead of 4680 which to me is a lot easier to manage.

I don't know what level of programming it takes to change the seconds for a duration, but I can't imagine it is as hard as some of the other changes that are being made for "Raising the floor on the bottom damage" for newer and less skilled players.

I will second this idea, if not the specifics.

In many other games when setting things up for new players i slways try and simplify the number sewuences.

A char with mains at 8 and secondaries at 4 is a lot eadier for new and even moderste skill to manage than one with one main at 9 one main at 7, three secondaries at 5 and 3 and 8.

If there were a suite of "std durations categories a lot of things would become more manageable.
Flicker 2s
Brief 4s
Short 8s
Medium 16s
Long 24s
Lasting 36s

Dont expect this patch such could be done but as long term maybe.

Not looking for all dot the same, duration, damage, radius, buff/debuff, secheal, cost all provide variety.

Sandman929

So many "thank you" notes for ZOS offering an explanation...but did it actually explain anything? Raise the floor, lower the ceiling, and simplifying.
Is the insanity that is every single fight being decided by destro ultimates part of raising the floor or lowering the ceiling? Or simplifying?

Youmee

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

1. Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
2. Raising the floor on the bottom damage
3. Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

• Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling”
• Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category.
• Radiant Destruction – This one is definitely in the “lower the ceiling” category.
• Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify”

Hello, Rich,

thank you for clarification. However still a couple of questions remain. For example, all the quoted changes do not mention anything which is supposed to raise the floor for the newcomers.

Being a player who is here since beta test, I have a lot of newcomers in my guilld. We have fun playing your game but when it comes to trials, everything turns , cause the newcomers do not have enough DPS to kill the bosses. The only thing which could have saved the situation was the old players with trained rotation and high DPS. OK if you are going to raise DPS for the newcomers but I do not see how are you going to do that.

So the question is how are you going to attract people to high end content?

Feralmyst

I'm on the brink of verbalizing to my friends that ESO is now 'as fun', 'as cool' and 'as good' as the greatest MMO of all time, which, as we all know, is Dark Age of Camelot

Please don't futz with it too much - there are plenty of in game options - don't like the CP system, you can PvP in a non-CP world; get rekt by someone, you can read what they hit you with and the order so you can improve/counter/avoid, etc. The game is continuing to get better and better - please don't toss it into a care bear cycle too early - we enjoy beating on each other

PurifedBladez

This is utter ***.

Minalan

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Yes it is a joke. And this is why either the bonus damage needs to be removed from stealth, or remove the stun. Only under battle spirit.

At least then you can block or dodge roll. Then fight back.

PS: that's a horrible incap strike, it should usually land for almost twice that even with 2500+ impen.

DHale

caeliusstarbreaker wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

DHale wrote: »

Btw I am over 40 I play in an elite pvp guild. It's not ZOS s job to dumb down the game for me it's my job to catch up. Besides I am a Infantry Marine Irl it's not really hard to catch up with the youngsters.

GOOD THING YOU DONT NEED KNEES TO PLAY ESO.

#gruntlife

It's my back.... my back dog. #0311 life. Not so lean, no longer mean, still... a marine.

@DHale
As an infantry Doc I can safely say that you must merely change your socks, drink water and take Motrin.

Sometimes, a lot of times... but as a Registered Nurse sometimes you gotta go a little deeper.

Joy_Division

Minalan wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Yes it is a joke. And this is why either the bonus damage needs to be removed from stealth, or remove the stun. Only under battle spirit.

At least then you can block or dodge roll. Then fight back.

PS: that's a horrible incap strike, it should usually land for almost twice that even with 2500+ impen.

Yes, I am wondering about that Incap. Something isn't right there and I should have been hit with even more damage.

Dark_Aether

@ZOS_RichLambert Instead of having some poor dev work 10hrs of unpaid overtime on a future patch to fix the mess you are doing now, how about you listen to you player base. There is a reason why the change to Velocious Curse is a surprise to everyone. Why "fix" what is not broken when so many other things still are?

Derra

Didgerion wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

Sorry Rich, I`m close to my 40s and I don`t feel any decline in my abilities that would be noticable on non high-end esports level and I`m pretty sure it will be same thing in 10 years. I mean you don`t make playing a guitar or piano artificially easier the older the user gets.

You pov is as narrow, and you know it. I don`t wan`t my or others age to be your argument, I feel it`s discriminating. Quite the opposite, I wish you would focus a bit more on bringing back the difficulty and skill rquirements of games back in the day.

Well you are wrong here mister @Mojomonkeyman .
First of all the eldernes does make you slower.
Second of all it is harder to master new skills when you are older.
And third of all the older you get the less time you have to play a game.
And of course there are exceptions to everything I said above.

Cheers!

I´m pretty sure if you can´t track a 3.5s timed cast you should not be playing a game that has a 1s gcd on ability use in the first place.
But hey - that might just be me.

Derra

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

@Joy_Division in what way is that related to my statement of saying: "Critdmg and crit are good and valuable stats in pvp"?

Like i don´t get what you´re trying to say. Not at all. Your screenshot perfectly illustrates the point i´m making. Which was: Crit and critdmg are really useful stats in pvp despite of impens existance.

Edit: I´m 100% with you and would extend your statement that any form of non telegraphed unavoidable burst capable of instantly killing a target (the more so from invisibility) should not exist in an mmo.

Mojmir

JinMori wrote: »

Doctordarkspawn wrote: »

EcruteakCity wrote: »

Stop incentivizing players to not work for things. Lowering the skill cap of the game is negative for the entire community. By not encouraging players to get better at the game content will only get increasingly difficult for them to complete. I understand that making a game more accessible from a marketing perspective is smart, however the new customers will not find a challenge when they reach end game. What does this approach imply for further trials or dungeons? Why punish players who have mastered their rotations or strategies around the current end game mechanics. In my opinion make the rewards for playing the game better more appealing to encourage the players who you believe need things simplified to actually get better. Sincerely someone who's had no challenge in this game for months.

Having two players with the same gear and level and wildly different DPS outputs due to the skill required to make DPS effective is negative for the entire community as well. It means less people do group content because the group content isn't populated by people who know what the crap their doing, both from vets tired of finding pugs and just grouping in guild and alienating new players who've figured out it needs to go faster.

So many hardcore or 'veteran' players are decrying these changes as dumbing the game down, and saying it has no challenge are the people who've allready done Shadows of the Hist Hardmode like 30 times and who've allready done the dance. In many cases as well, they allready clicked with the system so exploiting it wasn't that hard. It's not that they -care-, it's that they want to keep bragging. They want for their 'git gud' to still have weight.

To complain the game is dumbing down and that it isn't geting harder for your sake is selfish and entitled. This is for the betterment of the game and it needs it. Welcome to progress. Power creep needs culled, this Learning cliff needs filed down to a learning curve, and if the cliff is what you loved, consider that maybe a MMO truely isn't for you. Because it seems you focus more on you, than group needs or game needs.

Having two people with same gears and different dps is called effort, saying that people who are bad should be rewarded simply because they are in the game is selfish and entitled.....
Dude, if one is better he will archive more, simple as that. I'm gonna make a comparison.
Look at politics, when we focus too much on the collective, we have socialism, and then many times socialism has become communism remember Stalin? Instead when we focus not only on the collective but also on the person we have democracy, and all the good things it has brought to us, Judge for yourself. Dumbing down the game is not progress, it's just stupid, remember what happened to Warlords of Draenor when blizzard started appealing too much to casuals? Because i sure do.
the problem is that if you don't have anything interesting in your game, people will get in, play for a few weeks and then leave rinse and repeat, there must be some content that keeps the player there otherwise it will never become a good game.

Exactly!!!!

Lukums1

I don't think you have a clue matey.

Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

So this was an issue in PVP granted, yes, yes it was. But did you have to ruin it for PVE also? As if this was hurting ANYONE.

Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)

Nice another nerf to STAM templars, as if anyone plays them anyway any more. LOL.

Radiant Destruction – This one is definitely in the “lower the ceiling” category. It was strong in both PVE and PVP and needed adjustment.

The only one I agree with it was OP in both PVE and PVP, so yes this one did need to change.

Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.

This one is the worst choices I've seen development make so far, "to free up globals" LOL this is cringe worthy reading that.
This skill didn't need to be touched, haven't you guys had enough of stuffing magicka sorcs around the last 12 months? Guess not.

Luke