Balance direction in Update 13

Jsmalls

Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....

This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?

I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.

VelociousLegend

Jsmalls wrote: »

Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....

This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?

I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.

This is entirely true. I think it is why ZOS has gone out of their way to implement many different ways to play the game. They implemented environment level scaling to allow lower level people quest in previously higher level zones. Setup normal, veteran, and HM dungeons and trials. Created low level and non-CP PvP campaigns. Perhaps in hopes that the lower level or lesser equipped casual players trend toward the easier dungeons and PvP campaigns created for them.

Casuals will always make up the larger player base and thus drive business decisions. I just think they should make more content that allows the hardcore players to stay engaged (PvP arenas??) and feel valued - and listened to since they have intimate knowledge of the short comings of the game both from a PvE and PvP perspective.

It is a balancing act to make both side happy. Zenimax has their work cut out for them that's for sure.

pieratsos

Dev wrote: »

What people are crying about is the fact that the NB will buff prior to the strike, land the strike, and by the time the player can react it is already too late because they died server side 3ms earlier.

The issue is not that NBs or even proc sets are too strong, its the time aspect and level of preparedness. The gank starts 3 or 4 abilities before the target even knows they are at risk. When your opponent has that much of a head start, it will be difficult to recover.

No, the issue is with how easy it is to gank people because of all the stupid mechanics. You do not need to spec for full dmg to gank people. Thats the issue. You should absolutely be able to one shot even tanky targets if u catch them unprepared. But you should have to actually invest into dmg. When gankers are one shotting people while using drinks then u have a problem.

BigBragg

In this game I am a mediocre player at best. What I don't understand is why @ZOS_RichLambert do you feel lowering skill cap is healthy for a game? So it essentially just become grind for gear and then bam, you are at the top. To me that is absurdly boring. I should work for the gear, and work to improve my skill progression as a player.

p.s. Getting older doesn't mean you need things simplified.

Autolycus

smacx250 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

I don't know why people take offense to that statement - see the bold. He's talking about how he views himself, not how he views others. If one doesn't get slower as they get older - great! If one does - that's a pretty normal part of life and there is no reason to be ashamed of it or to deny it.

You're missing the point if you think this actually has anything to do with the fact that older gamers exist. The underlying issue here is that the age demographic is being used to justify a change that impacts the entire community. Most people agree that ESO rotations are quite simple, and the more you compare these rotations to those of other games, the better you'll understand that it's true. I have many "older" gamers in my guild (ranging between 40-70 years) and not a single one of them believes ESO's rotations are too complex.

Not only is age (nor reaction timing for older individuals) an illogical justification for the intended change, but ZOS failed to apply this same logic to all classes. Sorc rotations are simpler than both DK and NB rotations, stamina and magicka alike. Yet both of those classes were..... completely ignored as it pertains to rotation.

So you see, there is an illogical justification backing a disorganized and inconsistent combat adjustment that fails to cater to the overall concept of balance. That is why people are irritated. It has nothing to do with the fact that Rich has a few notches on his belt. The case is even stronger still when we support it with the fact that "older" gamers only make up a small segment of the community. While I am not personally taking this strong of a stance, there are many who believe that Rich is implementing these changes based on his own personal preference for the game. If that were true, and I make no such accusations myself, it would be a very irresponsible approach to balance.

Sugaroverdose

Jsmalls wrote: »

Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....

This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?

I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.

Most casuals what i've seen don't even have ESO+ -_-

Autolycus

Jsmalls wrote: »

Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....

This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?

I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.

You have a clouded and narrow view of this community. I think you've been spending too much time reading toxic forum posts and not enough time actually playing. This kind of "abuse" does not occur nearly as often as you make it out to be. I see new and returning players calling for help or looking for groups in zone chat every day who are treated in a complete opposite manner in which you describe. In fact, I've seen many of these posts myself, and it contradicts what I see daily in this game. Does this type of behavior exist? Of course it does. That type of behavior exists wherever humans do.

The "hardcore" (lol @ terminology) players you're referring to are, in a great many cases, the same ones teaching these people how to play. Screw around with rotations too much, and you'll take the fun out of it for the people who are teaching the community. Those people will, in turn, get sick of playing an over-simplified and boring game, and will leave. When this happens, all we are left with is "amateurs" (again, lol @ terminology) and the competitive side of the game ceases to exist. Ask around - certainly you needn't take my word alone for it - but ZOS is not known for their ability to teach people how to play their game. It took two years for Wrobel to "release" valuable information about calculating block costs.

The developers have a lot of choices, frankly. Listening to feedback of the community would be a good start. Looking at specific sets and taking the time to actually solve underlying problems, while at the same time avoiding blanket nerfs, is also a great way to devote resources. Routine maintenance and minor class balance adjustments that occur between updates is iconic to MMOs, and would also work wonders for this game. Raising the dps floor is not a bad idea either, however lowering the ceiling is a terrible idea. You see the point? Punish players for catering to the inherent design of the game, but ignore the underlying problems.

Duxes

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Update 13 has been out on the PTS for almost a week now and there’s been a lot of good feedback and questions posted with regards to the balance changes. I wanted to take a few moments to briefly discuss the overall direction for these changes so you can hopefully start to see why these changes are occurring.

For Update 13, our overall goal was to lessen the gap between the top and bottom. (in terms of overall damage output, coordinated vs. uncoordinated, small and large scale PVE & PVP) This doesn’t mean all classes are perfectly equal in all ways or that we want to remove skill from the game. We want to establish a solid baseline so that we can better tune and tweak balance. For this update we attacked this problem from multiple angles by doing the following:

1. Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
2. Raising the floor on the bottom damage
3. Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

Some of you will probably ask how the above goals translate into the changes we made. Here are some notes on a couple of the more hotly debated ones so you can see how they fit into the bigger picture:

• Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.
• Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)
• Radiant Destruction – This one is definitely in the “lower the ceiling” category. It was strong in both PVE and PVP and needed adjustment.
• Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.

I didn't touch on every change or class, but I hope that sheds some light into how and why we've made some of the changes we've made. We have a lot more balance changes planned, but due to how our build cycle works, most of them won't make the next PTS build - they should hopefully make PTS3 though.

It should also be noted that what is on PTS now is our first pass at these changes. We’re evaluating all of them and will make adjustments based on both feedback and data collected, so please continue to test them on PTS and give feedback.

-rich

You're going the way of DCUO. Don't go down that road. You will regret it.

Dev

Autolycus wrote: »

Are those rotations "simple" enough for the older gamer, but Sorc rotations are not?

As an overload stam sorc, with 3 bars i think it is an easy rotation:

1. Overload bar: 2, 3, 4 (crit surge, hurricane, bone wall [flexible slot]) pre-buff for the pull
2. back bar: 2,3,4 (lw trap, endless hail, poison injection) as running to boss
3. front bar: 6, 2, 3,3,3,3,3 or 4,4,4,4,4,4 (rend, rendering slashes, then spam a few flurries or tornadoes depending)
4. rinse and repeat

i weave 'left clicks' (aka light attacks) in where the commas are. Also recommend carrying some wep pots for the occasional 'out of ult'.

This might look like a complex rotation, but once you practice it a bit, the muscle memory makes it a cake walk. When i compare this to my temp or nb, aka 2 bar builds, a 3bar is more complicated then a 2bar, but i like the added options.

Originally this char was a magsorc, i had the same rotation adjusted for abilities (bone wall was emp ward, hail & inject were ele blockade and liquid lgtn.) During that time, i used VC where rendering is, and had no issues with the timing. The proposed change to VC, would have actually made it more complicated because i would have to skip it at times and would end up overwriting it or letting it lapse. If i was still/go back to a magsorc, i would actually replace VC with something else just to keep a reliable rotation.

If zos really wanted to help make that rotation easier, they could make the overload bar swapping more fluid. There are times when a bar swap is 'ignored' because skills will queue up but the swap doesnt. I have gotten better at it, but there are still times where the swap is ignored and costs me to lose the most dps, second only to death.

One thing that could help, is having the right gear. I play on PC but cant stand the controller ui or the fact that controller mode breaks some add-ons. So instead of the 'normal' KB, i use a logitech g13 mini kb (25 buttons + a thumb analog stick), and a 12 button logitech g600 mouse. (nothing programmed but simple single key presses. i dont bother with a turbo or macro, mostly because i dont need it & felt it got in the way, and it is questionable at best. )

Perhaps it is as an older player, i have used wisdom to leverage tech how & where appropriate to resolve issues instead of cry about it.

smacx250

Autolycus wrote: »

smacx250 wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

I don't know why people take offense to that statement - see the bold. He's talking about how he views himself, not how he views others. If one doesn't get slower as they get older - great! If one does - that's a pretty normal part of life and there is no reason to be ashamed of it or to deny it.

You're missing the point if you think this actually has anything to do with the fact that older gamers exist. The underlying issue here is that the age demographic is being used to justify a change that impacts the entire community. Most people agree that ESO rotations are quite simple, and the more you compare these rotations to those of other games, the better you'll understand that it's true. I have many "older" gamers in my guild (ranging between 40-70 years) and not a single one of them believes ESO's rotations are too complex.

Not only is age (nor reaction timing for older individuals) an illogical justification for the intended change, but ZOS failed to apply this same logic to all classes. Sorc rotations are simpler than both DK and NB rotations, stamina and magicka alike. Yet both of those classes were..... completely ignored as it pertains to rotation.

So you see, there is an illogical justification backing a disorganized and inconsistent combat adjustment that fails to cater to the overall concept of balance. That is why people are irritated. It has nothing to do with the fact that Rich has a few notches on his belt. The case is even stronger still when we support it with the fact that "older" gamers only make up a small segment of the community. While I am not personally taking this strong of a stance, there are many who believe that Rich is implementing these changes based on his own personal preference for the game. If that were true, and I make no such accusations myself, it would be a very irresponsible approach to balance.

This is what was said:

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

He said that he may need things "simplified" because he's "an older gamer and slower", but still thinks he should be entitled to be "playing games". There wasn't a generic statement about "older gamers" being "slower", or that he was basing anything in the game on his own opinion as a player who needed things "simplified" (but since he's responsible I would assume to some extent that he is). It was just an off-the-cuff response to a very general and ridiculous statement. I'm not reading anything more into it that what was written - but I looks like you may be.

In my opinion, the "simplification" is more a part of the strategy that was stated - in this case "raising the floor", vs other cases where they are "lowering the ceiling". I say this without any comment on the validity of the strategy - just an observation of what has been said about it. I will say that I'm a mag sorc who currently uses curse in PvP, and barring any changes to what's on the PTS, I'll sadly replace it with a non-sorc skill when it goes live.

Autolycus

smacx250 wrote: »

This is what was said:

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

He said that he may need things "simplified" because he's "an older gamer and slower", but still thinks he should be entitled to be "playing games". There wasn't a generic statement about "older gamers" being "slower", or that he was basing anything in the game on his own opinion as a player who needed things "simplified" (but since he's responsible I would assume to some extent that he is). It was just an off-the-cuff response to a very general and ridiculous statement. I'm not reading anything more into it that what was written - but I looks like you may be.

In my opinion, the "simplification" is more a part of the strategy that was stated - in this case "raising the floor", vs other cases where they are "lowering the ceiling". I say this without any comment on the validity of the strategy - just an observation of what has been said about it. I will say that I'm a mag sorc who currently uses curse in PvP, and barring any changes to what's on the PTS, I'll sadly replace it with a non-sorc skill when it goes live.

I don't take issue with Rich, nor the fact that what he said was clearly blown out of proportion. My intent with the novel I wrote above is to illustrate the connection that many in the community have made; it's not wholly indicative of what I think. Though Rich did not answer the question, and his response was not really an appropriate rationale for the question asked, I extended my logic further to more relevant matters.

The "strategy" in question here is simplifying rotations. What exactly does that strategy entail? Is it just changing VC to 12s instead of 3.5s, and that's it? Um... that's not really simplifying rotations, it's just some convenient spin to make us think it was part of some grander plan. I would draw attention to DK and NB rotations, which are more complex than Sorc rotations. And before anyone jumps on me, I have two sorcs myself, and I am well aware of how unforgiving clipping a dot or missing a weave is on our parse. That doesn't make them complex.

As of now, there is no indication that other classes will receive such a "blessing." Whether or not I agree with simplifying rotations on the whole, this is supposed to cater to the higher purpose of rebalancing. It's not really rebalancing if only one class is simplified. Take Grim Focus as an example... it's one of the hardest-hitting abilities a NB has in their arsenal, yet NBs are forced to kick out valuable damage-dealing abilities from their rotation to reapply it every few seconds, despite the fact it's supposed to be a 20s buff. Look at DKs, whose rotation consists of many dots, all which require constant monitoring.

Furthermore, Sorc rotations don't change much from cycle to cycle. The first full cycle of the rotation is basically identical to every other cycle until execute phase. The same is not true for DKs or NBs, whose rotation changes every cycle. There is a wider spread between dot durations (i.e. 8s on one, 12s on another, 17s on another...), which forces more frequent bar-swapping, thus affording a higher risk of dot clipping, and further complicating the rotation (since more dots have to be tracked).

My point is that ZOS should be prepared to provide a logical justification for something that they claim to be a strategy. If they really think simplifying rotations is appropriate with respect to class balance, then go for it. But don't change one skill and then pretend everything is well and good. If that's what they've ascertained is something worth devoting resources to, then finish the job and adjust the abilities that actually need it.

Doctordarkspawn

Duxes wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Update 13 has been out on the PTS for almost a week now and there’s been a lot of good feedback and questions posted with regards to the balance changes. I wanted to take a few moments to briefly discuss the overall direction for these changes so you can hopefully start to see why these changes are occurring.

For Update 13, our overall goal was to lessen the gap between the top and bottom. (in terms of overall damage output, coordinated vs. uncoordinated, small and large scale PVE & PVP) This doesn’t mean all classes are perfectly equal in all ways or that we want to remove skill from the game. We want to establish a solid baseline so that we can better tune and tweak balance. For this update we attacked this problem from multiple angles by doing the following:

1. Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
2. Raising the floor on the bottom damage
3. Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

Some of you will probably ask how the above goals translate into the changes we made. Here are some notes on a couple of the more hotly debated ones so you can see how they fit into the bigger picture:

• Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.
• Stun Removal on Blazing Spear – This change falls into the “simplify” category. We increased the duration of the damage on this ability to simplify the rotation. In addition we removed the stun component. Now the morph choices are more damage or more resources and disorient. (CC)
• Radiant Destruction – This one is definitely in the “lower the ceiling” category. It was strong in both PVE and PVP and needed adjustment.
• Haunting Curse – This one falls into the “simplify” category. The goal was to free up globals for more abilities to be cast with this change. (i.e. – every 10.5 seconds you get to use 3 more abilities) @Alpheu5 has a pretty great image that illustrates this change in this thread.

I didn't touch on every change or class, but I hope that sheds some light into how and why we've made some of the changes we've made. We have a lot more balance changes planned, but due to how our build cycle works, most of them won't make the next PTS build - they should hopefully make PTS3 though.

It should also be noted that what is on PTS now is our first pass at these changes. We’re evaluating all of them and will make adjustments based on both feedback and data collected, so please continue to test them on PTS and give feedback.

-rich

You're going the way of DCUO. Don't go down that road. You will regret it.

@Duxes Pray tell, what was the way of DCUO?

Because if it's simplifying their system to the point where it's not anti user friendly, this game needs that brand of alkosh.

Lucky28

Jsmalls wrote: »

Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....

This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?

I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.

Typically what happens before an MMO dies and falls into obscurity. the hardcore players leave, the content creators leave, newer plays don't stick around and new hardcore players don't stay long because there is no one to compete with.

i understand why the first would try this. but it doens't ends well, so i don't understand why developers keep trying it.

Doctordarkspawn

Lucky28 wrote: »

Jsmalls wrote: »

Classic problem of MMOs. The vast majority are casuals, which is where profits come from. The Hardcore players "virtually" bully the casuals, whether intention or not. In ways such as annihilating them in PvP in mere seconds, kicking them from groups, kicking them off the leaderboards, controlling the markets, and plenty of other ways. So developers have no real choice, but to cater to them and attempt to give them a chance at competing....

This doesn't sit well with the "hardcore" players so they quit (eventually). And the casuals will naturally move on to other games (it's their nature). But what choice do the developers have?

I've quit MMOs due to this reason, but I understand why it happens... It's just unfortunate.

Typically what happens before an MMO dies and falls into obscurity. the hardcore players leave, the content creators leave, newer plays don't stick around and new hardcore players don't stay long because there is no one to compete with.

i understand why the first would try this. but it doens't ends well, so i don't understand why developers keep trying it.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to say the complete opposite.

There -are- the free to play players who will come, play, then whine about how the game sucks. True casual players will sit there and play the same content because it's fun.

By contrast, hardcore players want constant insane challenge, and if they dont get it, they leave. If you monopolize development to suit them, you please them but drive everyone else, and their not a big enough audience to justify it. (Not to mention, that I have rarely seen a development team that will keep them entertained for as long as they want it.)

People say it's the hardcore players leaving that signifiges MMO death. The opposite is true. Wildstar's entire design, Champions Online's new spin toward the 'hardcore' crowd and traditional MMO's, the second you try to cater exclusively to hardcore players, you kill your game because the majority isn't interested.

The game is failing right now because the game is -anti- casual with just a few updates, murdering build diversity and causing the few places where the meta was not law, law. And the communities increasing hostility against -anyone- below expert skill level is driving new players off. Hardcore players created the problem. Combined with no new content, they get more furious, and cause more damage.

CaliMade

Please justify this....i beg you....he came out of stealth as i was feared by another NB. I had no time to react....I have 3126 crit resist on my magDK a friend of mine took a 27k one on his mag sorc he was instantly killed on his mount.

RoamingRiverElk

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

We know that it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you. That is why we are saying that this change to the proc sets isn't enough.

Jaronking

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

We know that it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you. That is why we are saying that this change to the proc sets isn't enough.

Rich runs 3 proc sets he don't care he knows perfectly well this change will do nothing but that doesn't matter to him he gets easy kills in pvp so he fine with them still being broken.

Joy_Division

CaliMade wrote: »

Please justify this....i beg you....he came out of stealth as i was feared by another NB. I had no time to react....I have 3126 crit resist on my magDK a friend of mine took a 27k one on his mag sorc he was instantly killed on his mount.

Looks like Blob's new video has gotten some views.

arasysb14_ESO

Loc2262 wrote: »

Mr. Lamberts statement quite confirmed my decision to stop anything "progess" related in this game. Why put any time or effort into becoming better at what you do (be it through skill improvement or praying to RNGsus), if it gets nerfed away anyway?

I feel quite smacked in the face now for putting time and effort into this game. It double hurts cause I quite like(d) this game.

Mr. Lambert, you don't do things like this to your veteran players. You just don't.

I actually promised myself to stop posting after how feedback on crown crates & balancing kept being ignored but I wholeheartedly agree with this.

One common symptom of failing MMOs always been softening up the game and punishing veterans for the sake of casuals' short lived entertainment for 3 about months (or basically when they move on to another casual game that drenches players in shinnies for the sake of offering entertainment).

Nerfing magicka sorcerers continously, while every obvious issue has been screaming at you, is very convincing for a lot us that there's no reason to check the game later after we are pushed too far away with horrible (im)balance.

waitwhat

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.

This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.

How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.

All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.

I get it you're trying to make this sound reasonable, but just stop. No he technically didn't take 10 seconds to kill me. If you think my time to react started when he started he gap close, you don't know how NBs gank. Google animation cancelling and then watch any Sribes video. Extended ritual procs every 2 seconds ... it didn't proc again before I died. I got stunned. I cc broke. I died before heal went off. If this didn't happen, I wouldn't lie about it. Some executes in this game are "instant," in that if the skill will kill you, you die before the animations play out. Everyone thinks this is just an RD issue but ask any sorc who use Mage's Wrath. Targets explode before I'm even done pressing the button.

Yes I had >2K Crit resistance and yes damage is out of control. Heavy armor is also out of control. In ZoS's weird way this is somehow "balanced" because offense and defense are both strong, but it's just a stupid arms race of who can abuse what mechanic the most. It's dumb. I am very disappointed ZoS did nothing about this and I wish people would stop apologizing over these abusive mechanics or ZoS's inaction.

Just pointing out that last time i checked, all activations in ESO are on key-release not key-press, so technically your statement i bolded is factually impossible.

If ZOS nerfs anything this patch, I hope they nerf people's ability to pettifog and make zero value-added "technical" observations that ignore the inherent fluidity and obvious hyperbole existent in the way normal people speak.

We all know what @Joy_Division meant. He was saying that Mages Fury is very strong and near instantaneous. Your technical breakdown of the way he phrased that observation adds a sum total of NOTHING to the conversation and just derails it.

The purpose of communication is to convey meaning, not to be "technically correct." Use context clues or ask a friend to interpret if you aren't culturally socialized enough to understand the real meaning behind the words.

My guess however, is that you do actually understand and you just like to argue for the sheer sake of arguing. However, you are simply being petty and contrary and not really responsive to the argument presented.

The evidence presented was that the way game mechanics and ganking works, the Time to Kill is still really low, and certain executes add to that. There are helpful and value-added ways to counter that argument but you need to present your own evidence if you wish to try. If you know of a way to survive a gank build like that without radiant magelight, defensive rune or a clairvoyant add-on, please enlighten us.

It's apparent to most of us that play day to day in cyrodiil that the proc set crit nerf will do nothing to change the FPS style low time to kill that is making this game feel more like counterstrike than an Elder Scolls Game.

isnt the whole point of pvp is to play counterstrike, but with swords and magic?If people want slow paced strategic competition, might i recommend a good game of chess instead?

They cannot fix the inherent issue of ganking without completely rewriting the nb class. The class is designed for one purpose: Buff>Stealth>Kill. If it is nerfed any further it would be: Buff>stealth>Annoy>respawn... NB is already the weakest class in terms of pve dps, nerf them anymore and their hits will heal the mobs...

People were getting ganked before the proc sets, its not something that is new. Its not going to go away as long as there is a class specifically designed to gank.

There is a fine line between having a potent "gank" build capable of delivering a lot of up front damage to gain the upper hand in a fight and just insta-killing an opponent.

The "I play an assassin, I deserve to get a kill" crowd only ever pays attention to their class, not their target. OK, you play a gank class designed to kill. But I play a "tank" designed to survive. Why is the tank build someone invalidated or trumped by the "assassin"? Because "assassins" have more twitch views, are generally perceived as being cooler, and would sell more games?

And the whole, "well, if I fail a gank I'm helpless" routine is a joke. NBs are not helpless face to face fighters, do they even know what Surprise attack, Shadow barrier, and Siphoning attacks do? And this game allows these same nightblades to access the things they are missing from their class trees, whether it's HoTs, Dizzying Swing, and, of course, the stupid proc sets for more damage. The "I'm helpless" routine is just a disingenuous reference to other games where "assassins" really are bad at face to face fighting.

There are nightblade builds that aren't helpless face-to-face fighters in Cyrodiil, but the gank build--even without proc sets--isn't one of them due to all the cc effects running rampant. Ganking does have a trade-off, and a steep downside.

In Cyrodiil an nb ganker is most often a helpless face to face fighter. If our gank fails we'll get feared or ambushed by another nb (and marked for sure), taloned or knocked back by the dk we didn't kill, speared by a templar and sunned, or snared by a sorc. Once we're cc'd, we're done when you consider the low resists given by the medium armor we need to get our damage that high, especially if the target survived and has an honor guard cohort with them. Using an Essence of Immovability would reduce the gank's damage, even if it shielded them from cc long enough to escape, and you have access to those same pots should you survive, in addition to Immovable.

The NB skills do not need nerfs. Rather, the back-end hardware needs a buff and the server-side coding needs optimization. You weren't killed instantly by class skills. You were killed instantly by animation cancelling and bad latency, with procsets thrown in for the tanks that have over 50k health with 9k health regen. Animation cancelling and latency are issues in technical implementation, not skill design.

I'm just as irritated by the assassin mentality as you are, due to all the lectures I get about not using 2h/dw with Velidreth and all the preening in group chat I have to sit through wherein gankers brag about their AP gains without contributing anything strategically to the campaign.

However, we really need to agitate for buffs to the back-end hardware and and optimizations in server-side coding rather than nerfs to NB skills if we really want to put a stop to what the NB did to you. It will take a lot of agitation too, because hardware is a large, ongoing cost center and the kind of optimization to significantly reduce animation cancelling is *very* difficult and expensive.

old_mufasa

waitwhat wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.

This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.

How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.

All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.

I get it you're trying to make this sound reasonable, but just stop. No he technically didn't take 10 seconds to kill me. If you think my time to react started when he started he gap close, you don't know how NBs gank. Google animation cancelling and then watch any Sribes video. Extended ritual procs every 2 seconds ... it didn't proc again before I died. I got stunned. I cc broke. I died before heal went off. If this didn't happen, I wouldn't lie about it. Some executes in this game are "instant," in that if the skill will kill you, you die before the animations play out. Everyone thinks this is just an RD issue but ask any sorc who use Mage's Wrath. Targets explode before I'm even done pressing the button.

Yes I had >2K Crit resistance and yes damage is out of control. Heavy armor is also out of control. In ZoS's weird way this is somehow "balanced" because offense and defense are both strong, but it's just a stupid arms race of who can abuse what mechanic the most. It's dumb. I am very disappointed ZoS did nothing about this and I wish people would stop apologizing over these abusive mechanics or ZoS's inaction.

Just pointing out that last time i checked, all activations in ESO are on key-release not key-press, so technically your statement i bolded is factually impossible.

If ZOS nerfs anything this patch, I hope they nerf people's ability to pettifog and make zero value-added "technical" observations that ignore the inherent fluidity and obvious hyperbole existent in the way normal people speak.

We all know what @Joy_Division meant. He was saying that Mages Fury is very strong and near instantaneous. Your technical breakdown of the way he phrased that observation adds a sum total of NOTHING to the conversation and just derails it.

The purpose of communication is to convey meaning, not to be "technically correct." Use context clues or ask a friend to interpret if you aren't culturally socialized enough to understand the real meaning behind the words.

My guess however, is that you do actually understand and you just like to argue for the sheer sake of arguing. However, you are simply being petty and contrary and not really responsive to the argument presented.

The evidence presented was that the way game mechanics and ganking works, the Time to Kill is still really low, and certain executes add to that. There are helpful and value-added ways to counter that argument but you need to present your own evidence if you wish to try. If you know of a way to survive a gank build like that without radiant magelight, defensive rune or a clairvoyant add-on, please enlighten us.

It's apparent to most of us that play day to day in cyrodiil that the proc set crit nerf will do nothing to change the FPS style low time to kill that is making this game feel more like counterstrike than an Elder Scolls Game.

isnt the whole point of pvp is to play counterstrike, but with swords and magic?If people want slow paced strategic competition, might i recommend a good game of chess instead?

They cannot fix the inherent issue of ganking without completely rewriting the nb class. The class is designed for one purpose: Buff>Stealth>Kill. If it is nerfed any further it would be: Buff>stealth>Annoy>respawn... NB is already the weakest class in terms of pve dps, nerf them anymore and their hits will heal the mobs...

People were getting ganked before the proc sets, its not something that is new. Its not going to go away as long as there is a class specifically designed to gank.

There is a fine line between having a potent "gank" build capable of delivering a lot of up front damage to gain the upper hand in a fight and just insta-killing an opponent.

The "I play an assassin, I deserve to get a kill" crowd only ever pays attention to their class, not their target. OK, you play a gank class designed to kill. But I play a "tank" designed to survive. Why is the tank build someone invalidated or trumped by the "assassin"? Because "assassins" have more twitch views, are generally perceived as being cooler, and would sell more games?

And the whole, "well, if I fail a gank I'm helpless" routine is a joke. NBs are not helpless face to face fighters, do they even know what Surprise attack, Shadow barrier, and Siphoning attacks do? And this game allows these same nightblades to access the things they are missing from their class trees, whether it's HoTs, Dizzying Swing, and, of course, the stupid proc sets for more damage. The "I'm helpless" routine is just a disingenuous reference to other games where "assassins" really are bad at face to face fighting.

You were killed instantly by animation cancelling and bad latency.

This right here is a bulk of the issue.. so many nerfs and exploits do to animation cancelling and lag exploits... they just need to code it so that damage is only done after the animation competes and adjust skills and damage accordingly... I know easier said then done.. but if they really want to get a handle on balance in the game.. that's one of the big stumbling blocks.

waitwhat

old_mufasa wrote: »

waitwhat wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Dev wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

Heavy armor. A real set with Impen. Not Trainee trash.



2511+5110+10066+1078+4802+8645+2719+1886+6729+5802=48270 damage. With 50% Battle Spirit.

I got killed in 2 seconds. Got stunned. CC broke. Died before I could get a skill off. Yes, there are a lot of damage inputs there; still did nothing that "fight" except CC break. ZoS's fix is a joke. They either have no clue what's going on in PvP or do not care. I can't tell which it is. How the heck is anyone expected to run around in Light Armor with 25K health "normal" builds?

NBs wonder why their trial DPS sucks and why Zenimax doesn't boost their skills, it is because of abusive crap like that. In what universe is it even compelling gameplay that a very high health build in heavy armor gets insta-killed?. This isn't Call of Duty. It's a joke.

Not saying that this isn't completely ridiculous, but technically it took him 7-10 seconds to kill you and you had 3-4 seconds to react (depending on lag. He buffed up in stealth, prepared a heavy, gap closed, casted ult, then casted his execute twice. Your time to react started at his gap close.

This next bit isn't really for you, but more for the people that don't like the crit nerf on procs.

How much impen do you have? If you have 2k impen (about 30% reduced crit damage) and assuming he is running a 1.72 crit modifier(shadow mundus), his crits still hit you for 40% more damage. That means that his Veli proc would do 6175 damage (if my understanding that crit resist reduction in damage isn't multiplicative but additive) instead of 8645 damage. That's 2500 less damage.

All of this still doesn't really excuse that a 45k health character died that fast. Just goes to show the damage potential in this game. Its unhealthy.

I get it you're trying to make this sound reasonable, but just stop. No he technically didn't take 10 seconds to kill me. If you think my time to react started when he started he gap close, you don't know how NBs gank. Google animation cancelling and then watch any Sribes video. Extended ritual procs every 2 seconds ... it didn't proc again before I died. I got stunned. I cc broke. I died before heal went off. If this didn't happen, I wouldn't lie about it. Some executes in this game are "instant," in that if the skill will kill you, you die before the animations play out. Everyone thinks this is just an RD issue but ask any sorc who use Mage's Wrath. Targets explode before I'm even done pressing the button.

Yes I had >2K Crit resistance and yes damage is out of control. Heavy armor is also out of control. In ZoS's weird way this is somehow "balanced" because offense and defense are both strong, but it's just a stupid arms race of who can abuse what mechanic the most. It's dumb. I am very disappointed ZoS did nothing about this and I wish people would stop apologizing over these abusive mechanics or ZoS's inaction.

Just pointing out that last time i checked, all activations in ESO are on key-release not key-press, so technically your statement i bolded is factually impossible.

If ZOS nerfs anything this patch, I hope they nerf people's ability to pettifog and make zero value-added "technical" observations that ignore the inherent fluidity and obvious hyperbole existent in the way normal people speak.

We all know what @Joy_Division meant. He was saying that Mages Fury is very strong and near instantaneous. Your technical breakdown of the way he phrased that observation adds a sum total of NOTHING to the conversation and just derails it.

The purpose of communication is to convey meaning, not to be "technically correct." Use context clues or ask a friend to interpret if you aren't culturally socialized enough to understand the real meaning behind the words.

My guess however, is that you do actually understand and you just like to argue for the sheer sake of arguing. However, you are simply being petty and contrary and not really responsive to the argument presented.

The evidence presented was that the way game mechanics and ganking works, the Time to Kill is still really low, and certain executes add to that. There are helpful and value-added ways to counter that argument but you need to present your own evidence if you wish to try. If you know of a way to survive a gank build like that without radiant magelight, defensive rune or a clairvoyant add-on, please enlighten us.

It's apparent to most of us that play day to day in cyrodiil that the proc set crit nerf will do nothing to change the FPS style low time to kill that is making this game feel more like counterstrike than an Elder Scolls Game.

isnt the whole point of pvp is to play counterstrike, but with swords and magic?If people want slow paced strategic competition, might i recommend a good game of chess instead?

They cannot fix the inherent issue of ganking without completely rewriting the nb class. The class is designed for one purpose: Buff>Stealth>Kill. If it is nerfed any further it would be: Buff>stealth>Annoy>respawn... NB is already the weakest class in terms of pve dps, nerf them anymore and their hits will heal the mobs...

People were getting ganked before the proc sets, its not something that is new. Its not going to go away as long as there is a class specifically designed to gank.

There is a fine line between having a potent "gank" build capable of delivering a lot of up front damage to gain the upper hand in a fight and just insta-killing an opponent.

The "I play an assassin, I deserve to get a kill" crowd only ever pays attention to their class, not their target. OK, you play a gank class designed to kill. But I play a "tank" designed to survive. Why is the tank build someone invalidated or trumped by the "assassin"? Because "assassins" have more twitch views, are generally perceived as being cooler, and would sell more games?

And the whole, "well, if I fail a gank I'm helpless" routine is a joke. NBs are not helpless face to face fighters, do they even know what Surprise attack, Shadow barrier, and Siphoning attacks do? And this game allows these same nightblades to access the things they are missing from their class trees, whether it's HoTs, Dizzying Swing, and, of course, the stupid proc sets for more damage. The "I'm helpless" routine is just a disingenuous reference to other games where "assassins" really are bad at face to face fighting.

You were killed instantly by animation cancelling and bad latency.

This right here is a bulk of the issue.. so many nerfs and exploits do to animation cancelling and lag exploits... they just need to code it so that damage is only done after the animation competes and adjust skills and damage accordingly... I know easier said then done.. but if they really want to get a handle on balance in the game.. that's one of the big stumbling blocks.

@ZOS_GinaBruno :

Case in point: We just had a server dump here on PS4 NA. Entire groups got kicked from the game across multiple zones, and then placed in queues to log into the character select screen.

Nothing else matters. Balancing, housing, proc-sets, master writs, none of it matters if the live systems are so unstable as to unpredictably terminate large numbers of sessions across zones, to say nothing of how those systems' performance gives rise to unintended exploits.

I'm not being hyperbolic. I'm being literal. All the work that has gone into update 13 is literally of no import to the user base if the user base cannot reliably access the functionalities update 13 provides.

The next update needs to address server capacity, autoscaling, and optimization. Population caps seem to have only forestalled the re-emergence of the instability prevalent ca. 2014-2015, and the success of update 12 in increasing the active user base indicates that population caps are no longer viable in preserving functionality. The game won't work--and its active customer base cannot continue to grow--if the back-end doesn't autoscale reliably to handle increased traffic.

Make ZOS leadership hear us on this, please, before they have to hear it from someone else. Otherwise, they'll be answering questions about uptime, rather than performance.

JinMori

Remove damage bonus from stealth that nb have, it's cancerous. Or at least reduce it

AyeshaBelladonna

[/quote]

You were killed instantly by animation cancelling and bad latency. [/quote]

This right here is a bulk of the issue.. so many nerfs and exploits do to animation cancelling and lag exploits... they just need to code it so that damage is only done after the animation competes and adjust skills and damage accordingly... I know easier said then done.. but if they really want to get a handle on balance in the game.. that's one of the big stumbling blocks.

[/quote]

@ZOS_GinaBruno :

Case in point: We just had a server dump here on PS4 NA. Entire groups got kicked from the game across multiple zones, and then placed in queues to log into the character select screen.

Nothing else matters. Balancing, housing, proc-sets, master writs, none of it matters if the live systems are so unstable as to unpredictably terminate large numbers of sessions across zones, to say nothing of how those systems' performance gives rise to unintended exploits.

I'm not being hyperbolic. I'm being literal. All the work that has gone into update 13 is literally of no import to the user base if the user base cannot reliably access the functionalities update 13 provides.

The next update needs to address server capacity, autoscaling, and optimization. Population caps seem to have only forestalled the re-emergence of the instability prevalent ca. 2014-2015, and the success of update 12 in increasing the active user base indicates that population caps are no longer viable in preserving functionality. The game won't work--and its active customer base cannot continue to grow--if the back-end doesn't autoscale reliably to handle increased traffic.

Make ZOS leadership hear us on this, please, before they have to hear it from someone else. Otherwise, they'll be answering questions about uptime, rather than performance.
[/quote]

THIS! THIS sooooo much! These last couple weeks have been the worst in pvp since forever. EXCEPT when the holiday events were up which pulled a large amount of the cyrodial lag to other zones( although i got a kick out of all the ping rate and fps complaints in zone chat, my response was always lag? you think tHIS is lag?LOL) these last few weeks have been a resurgence of the sudden server kicks during the big battles. middle of the fight you get kicked. then it's 50/50 whether that relog brings you right back where you were if you are lucky and the battle is already over or if it throws you to the main gate so you have to work your way back. and thats IF you get reloaded to Cyr. otherwise you get kicked from zone and have to wait in due to get back. which can take HOURS in Primetime. I saw horrible lag spikes in busy zones after the One Tamerial launch but i didn't crash anymore in Cyr so i felt with it. now i see the same lag in busy zones AND I'm experiencing the old PVP crashes too. PLEASE make the next major update ONLY address these issues. Maybe then you guys will find a real solution! POP Caps are no longer the answer.

UppGRAYxDD

https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5nqs8z/rich_lambert_posted_some_class_balance_changes/ This right here... crossing fingers for next Tuesday

paget4444

Just so disappointing that this is the direction you guys want to go with...

*Raising the floor - Perfect, some abilities needed it.....although I'm not sure what changes you've made that actually accomplish this, even in your examples noted above none of them fell into this category.

*Simplifying - Why.....just why. If a player wants to reach a higher potential for their class/build, they need to PRACTICE. So many people think that they will output maximum DPS just by getting that one last piece in divines trait, or by using spell power potions. In reality however, though these may help, the really big changes in damage output come from mastering your rotations, with PRACTICE. Simplifying it is just allowing players who refuse to practice to reach the same sort of level that actual dedicated players can....defeats the whole purpose of trying to master your class since eventually ZoS will just baby-feed you up to par. This is a slippery slope...

*Lowering the ceiling - While there may be some skills that need a SLIGHT nerf (although this patch has apparently taken this to an entirely new level......goodness) this SHOULD NOT be some kind of goal you guys have. Once again where is the point in attempting to maximize my damage output or healing if its just going to be "hardcapped" by the next big patch. This is like trying to run an Olympic sprint knowing that halfway down the track your are going to get your feet tied together because you are too good and newer/less dedicated players can't keep up.

Honestly it really isn't that hard to just practice rotations and theorycraft your build, the new skeleton in this patch actually makes this even easier than it used to be. Put in the time, and you WILL progress in this game.....don't need ZoS to tie down the dedicated players just so new ones can feel better.

Strider_Roshin

So the direction of this game is to remove counterplay, and nerf stamina into the ground. Sounds like a great time to move on to something else.

Riggsy

paget4444 wrote: »

Honestly it really isn't that hard to just practice rotations and theorycraft your build, the new skeleton in this patch actually makes this even easier than it used to be.

Except that skeleton costs and arm and a leg to obtain making it only viable for hardcore players.

WillhelmBlack

So yeah fine, previous comment was ignored because it's me. OK with that.

Next comment to this thread...

The reason I'm still here is because of friends. The PvP is absolute dog ****, I'm not even kidding. Don't really care that much about class balance as anyone who's been around as long as me already has 2 types of each class anyway.

What I really want to say is, stop breaking your game even further. That's it, probably my final warning on the forums but I have to let you know how I feel since ESO is probably the last MMO I'll play and I won't talk to any of my friends again after this.

Stop with the stupid changes and start making the whole PvP experience BETTER. Invest in it, like you should have done 1 year ago.

Doctordarkspawn

paget4444 wrote: »

Just so disappointing that this is the direction you guys want to go with...

*Raising the floor - Perfect, some abilities needed it.....although I'm not sure what changes you've made that actually accomplish this, even in your examples noted above none of them fell into this category.

*Simplifying - Why.....just why. If a player wants to reach a higher potential for their class/build, they need to PRACTICE. So many people think that they will output maximum DPS just by getting that one last piece in divines trait, or by using spell power potions. In reality however, though these may help, the really big changes in damage output come from mastering your rotations, with PRACTICE. Simplifying it is just allowing players who refuse to practice to reach the same sort of level that actual dedicated players can....defeats the whole purpose of trying to master your class since eventually ZoS will just baby-feed you up to par. This is a slippery slope...

*Lowering the ceiling - While there may be some skills that need a SLIGHT nerf (although this patch has apparently taken this to an entirely new level......goodness) this SHOULD NOT be some kind of goal you guys have. Once again where is the point in attempting to maximize my damage output or healing if its just going to be "hardcapped" by the next big patch. This is like trying to run an Olympic sprint knowing that halfway down the track your are going to get your feet tied together because you are too good and newer/less dedicated players can't keep up.

Honestly it really isn't that hard to just practice rotations and theorycraft your build, the new skeleton in this patch actually makes this even easier than it used to be. Put in the time, and you WILL progress in this game.....don't need ZoS to tie down the dedicated players just so new ones can feel better.

Lol.

When a 500 CP player can do wildly more damage than another by virtue of just having theorycrafted a different way or copied a online build, this needs to happen. You'll still be one of the bigger fish in the pond, dont worry, your ego wont get hurt.

On the topic of raising the floor and symplifying, alot of this patch was just bringing stuff in line with everything else or eliminating redundant abilities in favor of something less PVP focused.