Velocious/Haunting Curse Side-by-Side Theoretical Test

Alpheu5

Summary
In this test, we are looking at the damage output for a very simple DPS rotation between Velocious Curse from Live and Haunting Curse from the Update 13 PTS. Most superfluous factors that influence damage such as critical rates and light/heavy attack weaving has been left out because efficiency varies from player to player, so damage values are flat between all skills. Abilities are used at a constant rate of one per second, and both Curses are applied as soon as possible after the final detonation.

Image-Free Breakdown

Parameters

• Critical chance is taken out of consideration to standardize numbers
• Weaving is taken out of consideration to standardize timing
• Crystal Fragments reliably procs every 4 abilities cast
• Abilities are cast at a rate of one per second
• Parses are 24 seconds long
• No Damage-Over-Time abilities are used

Damage Values:

• Velocious/Haunting Curse - 11,000 damage
• Force Pulse - 7,500 damage
• Crystal Fragments Proc - 18,000 damage

Parse Info (Live):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 6
• Force Pulse casts: 15
• Crystal Fragment casts: 4

Curse Damage: 66,000
Total Damage: 250,500
DPS: 10,437.50

Parse Info (U13):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 4
• Force Pulse casts: 18
• Crystal Fragment casts: 5

Curse Damage: 44,000
Total Damage: 269,000
DPS: 11,208.33

Xeven

Finally someone who gets it. While your conclusion is correct, prioritizing the Frag is ideal for a Velocious rotation given that it only does 11k per cooldown spent, while a Frag does 18k per cooldown spent. You'll also get more frags. However, not prioritizing the Frag is ideal for a Haunting rotation given that Haunting does 22k per cooldown spent while a Frag only does 18k. (In this theoretical scenario.)

Even if we prioritize the Frag in both rotations, the Haunting rotation still wins:



That said, in PvP you want to kill people quickly. We don't always have time to sit around for 6-12 seconds to set up a burst with a Curse explosion. On the other hand, Haunting now does more DPS per cooldown spent, and it allows us to slot it on the back bar, freeing up much needed space on the front bar.

Dual wield sorc is officially dead (if it wasn't already) and it will take some time to adjust to the new curse, but I don't think it's as terrible as everyone has made it out to be.

This insightful message has been brought to you by your Master Wizard Uncle Xeven.

NightbladeMechanics

Who cares? This Haunting Curse business guts sorc in PvP while leaving you PvEers with such close numbers as to fuel parse debates like this one.

Also you can't base your conclusions on rotations that include no other dps ability casts besides curse, frag, and force pulse. If someone came into a serious raid with those rotations, you'd laugh them out of group. At least base your theory on realistic end game dps parses (I don't know which Curse is better in such a parse).

Xeven

I'm not even talking about PvE. I'm talking about PvP. Many arguments can be made as to why Haunting is actually better than Velocious in PvP.

If you can't think of any, you're not trying.

Minalan

A 3.5 second curse forces stamina builds to use some defensive CD's instead of a non stop litany of animation cancelled crit rushes, tremorscale, and melee attacks.

You can land a 3.5 second curse on someone in mist form, and time it so that it explodes when they finally come out of it.

You can hit a stealth ganker, and force him out of his 4 second cloak before he escapes for good. He's long gone in six seconds.

A 3.5 second curse sometimes hits templars, a 6 and a 12 second explosion will NEVER land on them. They will be purged. Every. Single. Time.

People in groups with templars will have their curses purged for them, a tiny fraction of people will ever be hit by the 'echo explosion' at 12 seconds.

A 3.5 second VC keeps pressure on a permanent block tank. You know the guys who tank 40 people forever because of terrible block mechanics design? Resto staff heavy attacks, magicka poison, and unblockable curse. They eventually die. Nerfing VC is a BUFF to them.

There are SO many reasons to keep a 3.5 second velocious curse, I can't expect someone who doesn't play the class in PVP to understand how bad this change ruins our day to day gameplay. I DO. I know what I'm talking about.

Curse is our ONE ability that can't be blocked or dodge rolled, how is it a good thing that we can only do TWO in a 12 second period instead of THREE?

You must be absolutely horrible at PVP if you think this is a buff.

Xeven wrote: »

I'm not even talking about PvE. I'm talking about PvP. Many arguments can be made as to why Haunting is actually better than Velocious in PvP.

If you can't think of any, you're not trying.

Xeven

I didn't say it was a buff, I said it wasn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be. I am a well know top NA sorc with nothing to prove.

I can understand you are butthurt because they gutted DW sorc. Don't take it out on me.

I can tell you this though, backbaring curse has made my build hit an order of magnitude harder. I don't mind the change - yet. Only time will tell.

Koolio

Was the target dodge rolling purging and healing? Because if I'm on any character and a sorc curses me I know that the combo is coming. I won't even sweat it now. I'll just kill him/move because I have 6 secs to block/dodge/heal. That enough time to run into a keep or anything to not get killed. Duels might work great because of magic consumption and they are not running away. 6 seconds if enough to run from the flag of a resource into the second floor of the tower. That way to much time given an incap/surprise attack will kill you in 6 secs. Especially since I already have to cast shield every 6 secs. Shield curse pulse drag shield pulse shield pulse frag repeat. That's how all sorcs will have to kill someone. Pets don't kill. It will take too long. You cast curse. Someone's cast full Destro Ult before curse explodes once.

Minalan

Xeven wrote: »

I didn't say it was a buff, I said it wasn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be. I am a well know top NA sorc with nothing to prove.

I can understand you are butthurt because they gutted DW sorc. Don't take it out on me.

I can tell you this though, backbaring curse has made my build hit an order of magnitude harder. I don't mind the change - yet. Only time will tell.

What did you replace it with that could possibly hit harder than a 6-9K unblockable, undodgeable explosion?

Xeven

Koolio wrote: »

I have 6 secs to block/dodge/heal.

That is a valid argument which I acknowledged in my first post.

Xeven

Minalan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I didn't say it was a buff, I said it wasn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be. I am a well know top NA sorc with nothing to prove.

I can understand you are butthurt because they gutted DW sorc. Don't take it out on me.

I can tell you this though, backbaring curse has made my build hit an order of magnitude harder. I don't mind the change - yet. Only time will tell.

What did you replace it with that could possibly hit harder than a 6-9K unblockable, undodgeable explosion?

Two 6-9k unblockable undogable explosions? Look, I didn't come here to teach people how to sorc or to argue about it. In fact, I debated on posting at all. With the fire staff changes and a free slot on your front bar, I'm sure you can think of something.

Alcast

Thank you

stevepdodson_ESO888

there are definitely two sides to this debate, but we can't realistically conclude that Haunting will/is better than Velocious based on a theoretically rotation

in fact, it is not Haunting that is giving you more DPS in your new rotation, it is the extra Force Pulse and Crystal Frags that boost it...granted, higher DPS results from this but that is not necessarily why people are annoyed with the change

your theoretical rotation shows that U13 Curse does less damage in the same time frame...therefore, within an environment where you favour high burst damage (PvP) then U13 Curse is definitely nerfed

either way, it looks like I will need to walk round with my "Pet Zoo" from now on

MopeyHat

Xeven wrote: »

Minalan wrote: »

Xeven wrote: »

I didn't say it was a buff, I said it wasn't as bad as everyone is making it out to be. I am a well know top NA sorc with nothing to prove.

I can understand you are butthurt because they gutted DW sorc. Don't take it out on me.

I can tell you this though, backbaring curse has made my build hit an order of magnitude harder. I don't mind the change - yet. Only time will tell.

What did you replace it with that could possibly hit harder than a 6-9K unblockable, undodgeable explosion?

Two 6-9k unblockable undogable explosions? Look, I didn't come here to teach people how to sorc or to argue about it. In fact, I debated on posting at all. With the fire staff changes and a free slot on your front bar, I'm sure you can think of something.

You're not making yourself look like a "Master Wizard" if you bothered to take a few seconds to insult someone instead of teach.

Sure, there are other things we can put there now, but Curse was the best. That's why we used it. And anything else is inevitably going to be inferior. Is it that hard to say "I don't know yet"? Time and experimentation will tell what we come up with next.

Birdovic

Great effort you put in there.
However that is something most Sorc expected from this change anyway.
Overall slightly higher DPS yes, but the spikes from curse need to happen more often, for more burst possibilities to corner enemies.

Take a BoL spamming Templar as example.
If you do 10k dps or 11k dps constantly on him, that won't be enough to break through his spam where he has 20k+ health, or atleast to make him struggle.

What you need in this case is more opportunities to burst him down while he can't spam (frag stun) or more burst combos overall so he is too busy staying alive and wasting resources until you can get him off guard. With 6sec between each burst you Won't make him struggle, that's too much time to heal up, react properly or simply purge it.

Tl;dr

We need more damage spikes, not higher damage per second.

Xeven

stevepdodson_ESO888 wrote: »

in fact, it is not Haunting that is giving you more DPS in your new rotation, it is the extra Force Pulse and Crystal Frags that boost it...granted, higher DPS results from this but that is not necessarily why people are annoyed with the change

With an equal number of frags as I have shown, Haunting still wins (Granted, against a test dummy.) What's giving you more DPS is getting more bang for your cooldown buck.

These tests actually favor Velocious. A Haunting build will likely have more room for things like Bound Armor (*gasp*), or Inner Light.

Shad0wfire99

So when you cast Haunting, can it be cast every 6 seconds without negating the secondary explosion, or does it reset entirely on a second cast?

Xeven

Shad0wfire99 wrote: »

So when you cast Haunting, can it be cast every 6 seconds without negating the secondary explosion, or does it reset entirely on a second cast?

You cannot stack haunting, no.

leepalmer95

With a 6s curse templars can now:

Go have a shower
Make themselves to food
Have a nap
Wake and make themselves some tea
Do a backflip irl

And still have enough time to purge the first curse nevermind the 2nd haunting explosion.

Gj zos now templars can ignore curse as well as dots.

Dorrino

Templar argument is moot, because:

1. It was never a problem to purge a curse for them if necessary. What else would they do in that 3.5 sec window? Go have a shower?:)
2. By purging the curse they spend a gcd. By applying the curse mag sorc spend a gcd. If they purge it - both sides are even.

leepalmer95

Dorrino wrote: »

Templar argument is moot, because:

1. It was never a problem to purge a curse for them if necessary. What else would they do in that 3.5 sec window? Go have a shower?:)
2. By purging the curse they spend a gcd. By applying the curse mag sorc spend a gcd. If they purge it - both sides are even.

Well no, templar purge it and negate the sorc's attack, then remove any effects on them, put down an aoe snare, an aoe Hot and give themselves mending.

Yeah they could purge it in 3.5s but sometimes you get them off. Put it on them when they are attacking then stun them or something. You could get it off.

But now 2 explosions every 6s is useless.

Minalan

Dorrino wrote: »

Templar argument is moot, because:

1. It was never a problem to purge a curse for them if necessary. What else would they do in that 3.5 sec window? Go have a shower?:)
2. By purging the curse they spend a gcd. By applying the curse mag sorc spend a gcd. If they purge it - both sides are even.

Before you could curse and CC them, and it would usually go off. Now? They'll get up and purge it.

The game is about combos and setting up burst, and outplaying an enemy. It's not impossible with a six second curse, but you have to admit that it's a hell of a lot harder.

I don't think any Templar will ever be hit by the echo.

lygerseye

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Image-Free Breakdown

Parameters

• Critical chance is taken out of consideration to standardize numbers
• Weaving is taken out of consideration to standardize timing
• Crystal Fragments reliably procs every 4 abilities cast
• Abilities are cast at a rate of one per second
• Parses are 24 seconds long
• No Damage-Over-Time abilities are used

Damage Values:

• Velocious/Haunting Curse - 11,000 damage
• Force Pulse - 7,500 damage
• Crystal Fragments Proc - 18,000 damage

Parse Info (Live):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 6
• Force Pulse casts: 15
• Crystal Fragment casts: 4

Curse Damage: 66,000
Total Damage: 250,500
DPS: 10,437.50

Parse Info (U13):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 4
• Force Pulse casts: 18
• Crystal Fragment casts: 5

Curse Damage: 44,000
Total Damage: 269,000
DPS: 11,208.33

So, in short, using fewer Curses allows for more DPS from other skills, correct? Doesn't it then also reason that by eliminating the use of Curse altogether, your DPS will go even higher?

Great, you've now proven that the Curse skill is useless in any form.

Dorrino

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Yeah they could purge it in 3.5s but sometimes you get them off. Put it on them when they are attacking then stun them or something. You could get it off.

But now 2 explosions every 6s is useless.

You couldn't get it off on a really good templar if he didn't decide to 'let the curse go off'. It is the templar's choice, not the sorcs's skill.

What else would the templar do in that 3.5 sec window, but to get prepared for the streak/frags as a follow up?

4 sec burst window was as obvious as 'sudden' burst can be.

So the only templars who were caught by curse->Mage's wrath->crushing shock->frags were quite bad ones. And if we're talking about not really skillful templars (i.e. bad) i can assure you they won't purge 6 sec curse as well.

Minalan wrote: »

Before you could curse and CC them, and it would usually go off. Now? They'll get up and purge it.

The game is about combos and setting up burst, and outplaying an enemy. It's not impossible with a six second curse, but you have to admit that it's a hell of a lot harder.

I don't think any Templar will ever be hit by the echo.

See above about templar's skill considerations.

And yes, this change reduces mag sorc burst. But maybe that's the time to do that?:)

KisoValley

Glad to see a top NA sorc with nothing to prove made this post

Xeven

I'm not the OP, however the OP makes a good point which I expanded on. Haunting isn't terrible, its just different. Nobody wants to hear that though.

Minalan

Xeven wrote: »

I'm not the OP, however the OP makes a good point which I expanded on. Haunting isn't terrible, its just different. Nobody wants to hear that though.

Denial... river in Egypt.

Why am I bothering to argue with the best sorc on all of NA? I'm just an ignorant peon compared to you, what do I know?

Xeven

lygerseye wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Image-Free Breakdown

Parameters

• Critical chance is taken out of consideration to standardize numbers
• Weaving is taken out of consideration to standardize timing
• Crystal Fragments reliably procs every 4 abilities cast
• Abilities are cast at a rate of one per second
• Parses are 24 seconds long
• No Damage-Over-Time abilities are used

Damage Values:

• Velocious/Haunting Curse - 11,000 damage
• Force Pulse - 7,500 damage
• Crystal Fragments Proc - 18,000 damage

Parse Info (Live):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 6
• Force Pulse casts: 15
• Crystal Fragment casts: 4

Curse Damage: 66,000
Total Damage: 250,500
DPS: 10,437.50

Parse Info (U13):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 4
• Force Pulse casts: 18
• Crystal Fragment casts: 5

Curse Damage: 44,000
Total Damage: 269,000
DPS: 11,208.33

So, in short, using fewer Curses allows for more DPS from other skills, correct? Doesn't it then also reason that by eliminating the use of Curse altogether, your DPS will go even higher?

Great, you've now proven that the Curse skill is useless in any form.

This post was replying to the op but I'll reply for him.

Posts like these are why I don't even bother posting any more. Live curse is ~11k per cooldown. Nothing else we have does more damage for that cooldown barring a proc frag or an ultimate, yet people believe this crap. At the time of this writing the above quoted post has 1 insightful and 4 awesomes, yet it is completely false. Look what happens when we replace all the Curse with Force Pulse:



I shouldn't even have to post that. Anyone who understands the concept of X damage for X cooldowns should be able to easily deduce it. People will blindly believe whatever they want to believe.

Dagoth_Rac

lygerseye wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Image-Free Breakdown

Parameters

• Critical chance is taken out of consideration to standardize numbers
• Weaving is taken out of consideration to standardize timing
• Crystal Fragments reliably procs every 4 abilities cast
• Abilities are cast at a rate of one per second
• Parses are 24 seconds long
• No Damage-Over-Time abilities are used

Damage Values:

• Velocious/Haunting Curse - 11,000 damage
• Force Pulse - 7,500 damage
• Crystal Fragments Proc - 18,000 damage

Parse Info (Live):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 6
• Force Pulse casts: 15
• Crystal Fragment casts: 4

Curse Damage: 66,000
Total Damage: 250,500
DPS: 10,437.50

Parse Info (U13):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 4
• Force Pulse casts: 18
• Crystal Fragment casts: 5

Curse Damage: 44,000
Total Damage: 269,000
DPS: 11,208.33

So, in short, using fewer Curses allows for more DPS from other skills, correct? Doesn't it then also reason that by eliminating the use of Curse altogether, your DPS will go even higher?

Great, you've now proven that the Curse skill is useless in any form.

Dropping Haunting Curse for another Force Pulse would be a DPS loss. The time you spend casting Haunting Curse will get you 22,000 damage. The Force Pulse will only get you 7,500 damage. So you would lose 22,000 - 7,500 = 14,500 damage over 12 seconds. About 1,200 DPS.

Xeven

Minalan wrote: »

Why am I bothering to argue with the best sorc on all of NA? I'm just an ignorant peon compared to you, what do I know?

You said I was "terrible at PvP" because I said things that you didn't want to hear. I said I was a top NA sorc, and I am. I don't care if you wan't to hear that either.

Now I'm the "best sorc NA". Clever.

Haunting is actually pretty damn good. Deal with it.

lygerseye

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

lygerseye wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Image-Free Breakdown

Parameters

• Critical chance is taken out of consideration to standardize numbers
• Weaving is taken out of consideration to standardize timing
• Crystal Fragments reliably procs every 4 abilities cast
• Abilities are cast at a rate of one per second
• Parses are 24 seconds long
• No Damage-Over-Time abilities are used

Damage Values:

• Velocious/Haunting Curse - 11,000 damage
• Force Pulse - 7,500 damage
• Crystal Fragments Proc - 18,000 damage

Parse Info (Live):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 6
• Force Pulse casts: 15
• Crystal Fragment casts: 4

Curse Damage: 66,000
Total Damage: 250,500
DPS: 10,437.50

Parse Info (U13):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 4
• Force Pulse casts: 18
• Crystal Fragment casts: 5

Curse Damage: 44,000
Total Damage: 269,000
DPS: 11,208.33

So, in short, using fewer Curses allows for more DPS from other skills, correct? Doesn't it then also reason that by eliminating the use of Curse altogether, your DPS will go even higher?

Great, you've now proven that the Curse skill is useless in any form.

Dropping Haunting Curse for another Force Pulse would be a DPS loss. The time you spend casting Haunting Curse will get you 22,000 damage. The Force Pulse will only get you 7,500 damage. So you would lose 22,000 - 7,500 = 14,500 damage over 12 seconds. About 1,200 DPS.

And THAT is much closer to what you will get using Haunted because everyone will have ample time to cleanse it away.

The point to my comment was really just that while mathematically it works, it's not real enough testing. There's a saying: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics. You can provide all sorts of numbers to support your opinion. The numbers don't lie. I'm not questioning the math. How the numbers were obtained and presented, however, can be problematic.

As insightful as the OP's testing is, it's based on entirely ideal conditions, and several assumptions. I applaud the OP for taking the time to do what they did. Now, if we had another 100 people putting in the same effort to do more testing, adding in other variables, and more "real world" factors, then we can start to paint a picture of what the change will actually bring.

Many who are against the proposed changes are just trying to understand the reason for the change. ZOS has remained silent on it so far. With a proper explanation, or better yet, a proper demonstration, perhaps this could be the new meta, and there will be great rejoicing. On the surface, however, it just looks like it's killing an old meta without anything new in it's place.

Xeven

lygerseye wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

lygerseye wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Image-Free Breakdown

Parameters

• Critical chance is taken out of consideration to standardize numbers
• Weaving is taken out of consideration to standardize timing
• Crystal Fragments reliably procs every 4 abilities cast
• Abilities are cast at a rate of one per second
• Parses are 24 seconds long
• No Damage-Over-Time abilities are used

Damage Values:

• Velocious/Haunting Curse - 11,000 damage
• Force Pulse - 7,500 damage
• Crystal Fragments Proc - 18,000 damage

Parse Info (Live):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 6
• Force Pulse casts: 15
• Crystal Fragment casts: 4

Curse Damage: 66,000
Total Damage: 250,500
DPS: 10,437.50

Parse Info (U13):

• Velocious Curse explosions: 4
• Force Pulse casts: 18
• Crystal Fragment casts: 5

Curse Damage: 44,000
Total Damage: 269,000
DPS: 11,208.33

So, in short, using fewer Curses allows for more DPS from other skills, correct? Doesn't it then also reason that by eliminating the use of Curse altogether, your DPS will go even higher?

Great, you've now proven that the Curse skill is useless in any form.

Dropping Haunting Curse for another Force Pulse would be a DPS loss. The time you spend casting Haunting Curse will get you 22,000 damage. The Force Pulse will only get you 7,500 damage. So you would lose 22,000 - 7,500 = 14,500 damage over 12 seconds. About 1,200 DPS.

And THAT is much closer to what you will get using Haunted because everyone will have ample time to cleanse it away.

The point to my comment was really just that while mathematically it works, it's not real enough testing. There's a saying: Lies, Damn Lies, and Statistics. You can provide all sorts of numbers to support your opinion. The numbers don't lie. I'm not questioning the math. How the numbers were obtained and presented, however, can be problematic.

As insightful as the OP's testing is, it's based on entirely ideal conditions, and several assumptions. I applaud the OP for taking the time to do what they did. Now, if we had another 100 people putting in the same effort to do more testing, adding in other variables, and more "real world" factors, then we can start to paint a picture of what the change will actually bring.

Yes but what about all of the other valid arguments. Like, an open slot on your front bar... More time to set up burst... An extra cooldown. Allowing for inner light front bar is huge.

Now then, the standard sorc burst is shield curse shock shock frag furry. In this scenario your shield is 5 seconds old. That's bad. Dangerous in fact.

With haunting you can pressure longer before the burst and, you have time to reshield before the burst. Not only that, its much harder for your opponent to keep track of two 6 second bombs than it is to keep track of a single 3.5 second bomb. As said above, either curse is hard countered by purge. There is no real argument to be had there.

Many who are against the proposed changes are just trying to understand the reason for the change. ZOS has remained silent on it so far. With a proper explanation, or better yet, a proper demonstration, perhaps this could be the new meta, and there will be great rejoicing. On the surface, however, it just looks like it's killing an old meta without anything new in it's place.

The meta is created by people like the OP. We are still going to be bursting down AD/EP/DC nerds all over Cyrodiil. If you can't see potential, or even start to put together new combos in your head, then you just aren't trying. Most people don't, they watch youtube.