mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Without a shield how on earth will stam dps survive vmol hm?

Zinaroth wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

Reading this thread makes me sad really . PvP players coming here , speaking nonsense and trying to prevent buffs to Stamina . Really sad . Saying that Soul Assault is the best single target ultimate in a PvE thread . Yeah ...

I want to talk about Bone Shield . When ZOS tried to make Bone Shield scale with Stamina , people cried so much , they had to take it back . No one , literally , no one ever bothered to actually see how useless it was . It was costing crapton (still does) and was giving 3k shield on a 30k Stamina character . 3k . I went on PTS and tested it myself . This would be 7-8k in PvE which is again not as useful as magicka shields but still would help solving the survivability problem of Stamina DDs .

Now , I want to ask those PvP ''heroes'' , 3k shield that costs more than 3k Stamina , why did it hurt you so bad ? This disgusting , crap community knows nothing , always cries for nerfs and because ZOS has to listen to community , stuff like this happens . Look at where Stamina Templar is right now . Look at where all Stamina DDs right now . This is what this ''player''base caused . They are literally useless when you can get a Magicka DD instead . Next patch , at least from what we have , it will be even worse .

Stamina builds were perma rolling . PvP players cried . Stamina builds nerfed .

Stamina builds had a ''shield'' for 1 patch of PTS . PvP players cried . ZOS revert it .

Stamina builds had proc sets . PvP players cried . ZOS nerfed them .

Stamina builds got nerfed so much over the years , they became useless in PvE . They were top choice for 2 patches because of high DPS . Did it worth it ? No . People realized that Magicka is actually more powerful because of being able to play range and have more survivability and everyone started completing vMoL HM with Magicka DDs . It was only a rush of wanting to play the highest DPS . Magicka was always superior . People just realized it later . Do you really think vMoL HM was not possible back in the day ? We can nuke it now . I am sure it was possible . But with 8 Stamina DDs , it couldn't be done .

And these Magicka players who think they are not strong . Will you please , at least not post videos of killing 20 people by yourself ? Make what you say believable at least . I admit , they are really good players but don't be selfish . In a thread , asking for buffs ; in another thread posting videos of killing 20 people by himself/herself . I do not blame ZOS . I blame this crap community . I can't believe that people still think proc sets are the real issue . Just take a look at every PTS patch notes thread in this games history . Crying over and over again . Without testing . Just crying . People actually thought Minor Magickasteal would stack and Templars would be able to perma block with frost staff . Are you serious ? These people are the real issue . There is a huge community that tries to prevent buffs to certain classes/builds and cry for buffs to their own classes/builds . It is really annoying . ZOS shouldn't listen to any of this bullcrap and they should just do what they think is better . Yes , I actually prefer Wrobel's decisions instead of this community's .

One more thing to say . I am kindly asking . If you think you are not a PvE player that has actual experience , please , don't write in this thread with your useless opinions . You are not helping .

So much this.

90 - 95 % of the players posting on these forums have no clue what they are talking about. Do not test things. Do not have experience with the content or aspect they comment on and have no empiric data to back up their claim. They go off based on single case scenarios which are completely useless in the grand picture. They just sit there and advocate buffs for themselves and nerfs to everyone else, and they actually think they are right. It's laughable and I *** grin when you for example have high profile streamers switching classes because they found something stronger and then don't want to aknowlege it and start advocating buffs for what they are playing.

This is why education is good for you. People need to learn how to look at things objectively, how to collect empiric data and how to present an argument.

LiquidPony wrote: »

DangerMan wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

DangerMan wrote: »

This is probably the patch where a lot of the end-game PvE'rs will quit the game, probably including me. 90% of the people from 3 of the top 4 guilds on my platform/server have already stopped playing.

And it's not that we can't adapt or can't play Magicka. A lot of these folks had multiple characters, and even for me 4 of the 8 end-game characters I have are Magicka. But it's stupid to shift the meta so much that I can't even take half of my characters into end-game raids... Yes, I can pull marginally better DPS on one of my Stam characters, but due to a lack of ranged skills, and due to a lack of shields, it's counter-productive to use Stam characters when you're trying to get to the top of the leaderboards..

@DangerMan the other side of that is that there are always going to be old-timers leaving the game and new blood filling up the ranks. I see a lot of people here and on Reddit and in game trying to get into real end-game content.

Now, I'm no end-game expert, but I'm part of a Trials guild that got rolling just over a month ago and already progressed through vHRC (speed run), vAA (speed run), vSO and vSO HM (last night--our first HM!).

So yeah, it is concerning that top end-gamers are leaving but the only way the community can fix that is to work to bring new players into the end-game. Only ZOS implementing some actual balance and introducing new end-game content will keep people around.

@Alcast thanks for making this thread, and for posting builds and guides and videos. I think you're doing exactly what needs to be done to keep the ESO end-game community strong. And @Jeckll, same goes for you. I raid with a stamblade and your guide has been a huge help.

@LiquidPony yes, people will always leave the game, but there's a difference when one or two people leave because they found a better game to play, versus when entire raid teams of multiple top tier guilds quit because of stupid 'balancing' changes being introduced.. There always will be more people trying to take up the mantle, yes, but currently what ZOS is doing is making one resource completely useless in end-game trials. Good-luck in finding a guild that would willingly take a stam into vAA HM to vMoL HM...

@DangerMan I agree, I just don't know what the community can do about it. Half the reason I'm commenting on this thread is just to keep bumping it so that maybe ZOS pays attention. I keep hoping that the PTS3 build will include something to give stam DPS hope going forward.

Now, my guild will willingly take me into any Trial on my stamblade because I'm on top of my ***. But I know I'm going to have to run my mag DK in vMoL HM because I won't be able to handle the frustration of dying constantly.

We'll probably be progressing to vAA HM within the next few weeks ... our planned progression order is vHRC-->vAA-->vSO-->vSO HM-->vMoL-->vHRC HM-->vAA HM-->vMoL HM. We just finished vSO HM and will probably spend a few days cleaning it up.

I am, at this point, unaware of the vAA HM mechanic that will be a struggle for stam DPS (we try not to spend too much time beforehand watching top raid groups run the content because we enjoy coming up with our own solutions--we stumbled upon an amazing strategy for the top boss in the vHRC split, which I'm sure others are using, but it was great to figure it out ourselves). Is it a mitigation issue?

Parafrost wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

If they want to take away a lot of stam damage, then they need to make stam tanky as ***.

Medium Armor needs a 4% dmg reduction to AOE damage per armor piece to be useful.

Thats where Deadly Cloak comes into play.

Parafrost wrote: »

So with this change to dual wield, would a moondancer destro + helm or shoulders with a magicka 1 piece be more viable to run? This is for magplar in general.

1. Stamina needs ranged options. I guess this is already somewhat taken care of with the Hawk Eye buff. Now that bow is pretty much mandatory, let's look at the other two weapon options.
2. There is only one viable way to do AoE damage: Steel Tornado, making DW mandatory. 2H should be buffed in a way to make it do more splash damage, so that it finally becomes a viable replacement for DW in PvE. Buff Forceful and Cleave.
3. In order not to make a mess of PvP, buffs should be made mostly by focusing on Critical chance. This is easily done with DW dagger and Bow passives: Twin Blade and Blunt and Accuracy.

ZOS_DaryaK wrote:

This topic is about stamina in PVE, there are many other discussions about stamina in PVP where you are welcome to share your views.

DangerMan wrote: »

VelociousLegend wrote: »

ZOS_DaryaK wrote:

This topic is about stamina in PVE, there are many other discussions about stamina in PVP where you are welcome to share your views.

But isn't this part of the problem? Sometimes changes are put into place to account for something occurring on the PvE side and it effects PvP; and vice versa. You can't really divide a discussion concerning skills and gear between PvP and PvE since the same skills and gear are used for both - at least until there are completely separate PvE and PvP combat system + skills. Yes, some morphs target one side or the other, but the majority of skills are ubiquitous between both realms.

If we keep looking at the problem from one side and making adverse changes without acknowledging the changes to the other, then we will forever ping pong with these balance updates...

We've focused on PvP way too much up till now. It's time we introduce balance based purely on PvE. For the past year and a half all patches have been purely focused towards PvP. My StamDK got nerfed to the ground. Then Stamina in general got nerfed to the ground. It has become so bad that people refuse to play on Stamplars and Stamblades in PvE. Proc sets went to ***. Monster sets went to ***. Even MagPlars are getting nerfed (J-beam, trap). And all this because PvP'ers keep crying on the forums. I can't even take my stam toons into trials because all end-game guild that want top leaderboard spots prefer magicka.

So why should we not look at PvE separately now, given that we've been purely looking at PvP all this time.. I never saw any PvP'ers complaining when PvE was going to *** because of PvP.. So they shouldn't be complaining now when/if they're on the receiving end of this bullcrap..

Asmael wrote: »

AoE potency

In the current patch, we have 2 main stamina DDs seeing competitive use: DKs and sorcerers, who happen to the stamina DDs with the highest AoE potency of all stamina classes. This is a first point, because it defines your capability of destroying packs of mobs, which is critical to a group, since it represents approximately 50%~ of a trial's opposition.

• Stamina DKs rely on Standard to buff up their AoE capabilities. It is getting nerfed with next patch.
• Stamina sorcs rely on Hurricane as well as strong damage dealing passives. Hurricane is getting nerfed patch.
• Stamina nightblades have only passives, as Power Extraction is a weaker version of Steel Tornado.
• Stamina templars have only passives, as Biting jabs has a very small AoE.

Clearing tactics for trash packs rely on the careful use of ultimates and positioning to minimize the time required. The introduction of the Destro ult has increased magicka's potential in this regard, as you'll not always get the opportunity to stack up mobs in an efficient enough manner to make Meteor worthwhile (at least not as much as the destro ultimate).

As it currently stands, for a pack burn, magicka DPS is overall higher than stamina. The strongest stamina option is stam DK with Standard and caltrops, which can actually compete with magicka options as it currently. Seeing a 25% nerf to Standard's damage buff (15% = 20% * ( 1 - 0.25 )) is going to increase the gap in terms of maximum AoE potential between the specs.

Other point: caltrops see its use limited due the stacking made impossible. I'm absolutely aware of how messed up things would be in PvP if this were to be stackable again, so I'm not going to suggest that.

For short: the next patch is a rather small nerf to stamina potency, magicka will remain on a rather similar ground. This is not what I'd consider the most critical, since stamina builds are not currently used for their AoE potency anyway.

Single Target potency

THIS, is why stamina is no more competitive next patch. Preliminar tests of magicka single target DPS has shown either similar results or an increase. Stamina is taking a pretty huge hit in this regard, as there is no extra 8% single target option coming for them. One Tamriel already reduced the gap quite a bit, next patch will remove it completely.

To go over the current stamina options:

• Stamina DKs currently have the highest single target DPS ingame. This is going to be reduced both the overall stamina nerf, but also the Standard nerf.
• Stamina sorcerers and stamina nightblades are on a rather even ground. Excluding the overall nerfs, sorcerers will do very slighty less with the Hurricane change (nothing significant otherwise for NBs)
• Stamina templars... with no significant class ultimate, passives outclassed by sorcerers, jabs being an "overall good, master of none" ability, they are lacking if they solely use Biting Jabs. Drastically lacking.

This is the most critical part, as Single Target DPS is currently stamina DDs' niche. If you remove it, you remove the last reason to have stamina DDs in competitive groups.

Single target DPS is required, as it allows groups to help skipping mechanics. Their (stamina DDs) sole purpose in raid is to shorten boss fights.

If you want to remove the gap between magicka and stamina, you'll need to change something else. If you don't, I hope you invested a few skill points in role playing for your stamina sorc.

Cleave damage

Cleave damage can be defined as "damage dealt around a target while specifically focusing this target". To make this clear: If a magicka sorcerer focuses a boss, he's going to use Liquid Lightning, Elemental Blockade, Velocious Curse ( ), Force Pulse and Crystal Fragments.

The "Cleave" damage part is the damage dealt to adds by using Liquid Lightning, Elemental Blockade and Velocious curse.

The interesting part is that, when comparing magicka vs stamina parses, stamina has highly "focused" damage. Their cleave damage is extremely low (for a 56k parse as a stam DK, my cleave damage was 4k, which means 52k DPS was done on the boss).

When looking at current stamina builds:

• DKs have extremely low cleave damage. They can help it a bit with Caltrops and Noxious Breath, altho due to their role in a trial, it is recommended to favor Rending Slashes of Noxious Breath.
• NBs have the lowest cleave damage possible. Endless Hail. Caltrops if they slot it, Rend / Dawnbreaker as ultimates, and that's it.
• Sorcerers have the highest cleave damage of all stamina builds due in big part to Hurricane.
• Templars have either extremely bad cleave damage (maelstrom daggers setup) or good cleave damage (jabs setup)

Current trial tactics favor focusing the boss as much as possible to shorten the fight (and push higher scores), which is why having the necessary cleave damage to kill the adds without having to focus them at any point has become a strong point of magicka.

That being said, I don't think this is the most critical point.


Melee / Ranged

This is going to vary a lot depending on content, but in literally all cases, you won't be able to have 8 melees without taking unecessary risks:

• At least 1 ranged DD is required on Mantikora
• Zhaj, the first boss of vMoL, is notorious for severely punishing groups with a majority of melees. It is possible to have up to 6 melees with extremely good positioning (tank included), but you're shooting yourself in the feet by not picking as many ranged DDs as possible, as they also get the least DPS downtime from curses
• The Mage in AA will grow harder the more melees you have due to chain lightnings, as you need to clear the minimages (reflections).
• The Warrior have a few "Cleave" moves which represent a risk of one shot for melees.

There are other cases, just wanted to give a few.

Why is it related to stamina / magicka? Stamina has currently no good pure ranged options. Their lack of efficient class ranged options means they need to rely on a bow / bow build which currently doesn't compete with the more classic DW / Bow setup.

Because a bow / bow setup is not effective enough, stamina is either forced to be either underperforming or melee. Those trial conditions make competitive full stamina DDs raid inexistent.

The change to the bow passive is a good first step in this regard, so well done, but it's not going to be enough. I'd honestly don't want to see trials change to make it possible to have only 8 melees at all time, since the DDs also have to adapt to a given situation. Changing trials accordingly could also limit the mechanics in play, "a trial must be doable by 8 melees or bust it" isn't exactly great.

This is not a critical point, but an extremely nice addition.

Sustain

This is actually a strong point of stamina for all content. A stamina DD is almost self sustainable, as in they might only need a shard once in a while if a healer is using a Master restoration staff. There are no changes to stamina sustain in the next patch as it currently, only magicka with the introduction of Minor magickasteal. To go over the classes:

• Stamina DKs have the Earthen Heart passives, between Battle Roar and Helping hands (used either thru Igneous shield or Molten Armaments), they are in a very good spot.
• Stamina sorcerers have Dark Deal, a reduction to stamina cost with Unholy Knowledge and an extra 20% stam recovery.
• Stamina NBs have Siphoning Strikes.
• Stamina templars, you are the exception in a bad way. They do get 4% cost reduction, but Biting Jabs is an extremely expensive ability to spam (2903 stamina), and they don't have a good active way to recover stamina.

For magicka, their sustain comes from their healers in the current patch: Siphon Spirit, Worm's Cult set, Elemental Drain and Orbs. Next patch, Worm's Cult is probably going to be mandatory on a healer, and Orbs will need to pop all the time.

Stamina's strong point, heavy reliance on healers for magicka. Only change I would ask for is to slighty reduce the cost of Biting Jabs for templar (from 2903 to 2700 for instance). For magicka, the reliance on the healers make random groups an absolute PITA for magicka DDs, as you're not guranteed to get enough group support, and will likely spend a pretty large amount of time heavy attacking if you're a templar, DK or sorc, especially next patch.

Utility

Stamina provides completely different utility from magicka, and it's going to vary a lot depending on the class:

• Magicka templars provide the Spear synergy and Purify, they also have Nova if required for the mitigation.
• Magicka NBs can provide extra offhealing with Funnel Health (sees little use as Force Pulse is favored) and Veil of Blades for the mitigation if there's no Nova Available.
• Magicka DKs provide a damage boost thru Engulfing Flames and control with Chains, Deep Breath (interrupt) and snares / roots (Eruption / Burning Talons if used, altho Talons tend to see less play due to the cost and "meh" range)
• Magicka sorcerers provide the Conduit Synergy, Negates, and general OPness at doing MoL backyard (nurf! :O)

Stamina utility comes from constant snares from caltrops, access to some of the utility of magicka (chains for DKs, tho to a less extent due to the limited magicka pool) and backup group healing with Echoing Vigor which helps for dangerous trash pulls (Overcharge / Poison / constant damage)

Not a critical point, they both provide different utility. Bringing the extra group healing might be underrated, but that does make a difference in some situations.

Survivability

This is why stamina sees very little competitive play. In an environment where every single death costs a lot of time and points, staying alive has never been so critical, for the absolute best scores, if even a single person dies, the raid has to restart from the beginning.

Deadly Cloak has become pretty much mandatory due to the amount of AoEs in trials, Vigor is mostly for those situations where you take constant damage and have no guarantee to be saved by your healer. Damage shields are also important, as they allow you to limit repeated health damage and potential one shots.

The main point about staying alive in trials is that you'll almost always die because of burst damage due to a combination of mechanics, which means that the most important is to survive burst damage. Vigor helps little in this regard.

I'll go over stamina survivability:

• Stamina DKs have the best survivability of all classes: between Deadly Cloak, Standard's mitigation, many defensive passives, Igneous Shield and thus stronger Vigor healing, they can stay alive about as well as magicka in pretty much all circumstances.
• Stamina sorcerers have good mitigation thanks to Hurricane and Bound Armaments, they can also use Surge and have a full bar of survivability-oriented abilities with Overload. They do miss a few slots without Overload to slot as much as they need, between Bone Shield, Surge and Dark Deal.
• Stamina templars do have Radiant Ward if they want a shield that doesn't use their stamina pool, which is a nice plus, and a few decent mitigation-oriented passives.
• Stamina nightblades have it hard. No easy way to keep Shadow Barrier up, you can get minor Ward & Resolve with Mirage, as well as the extra dodge chance, and... that's it. You do have Deadly Cloak and the (meh) Bone Shield to prevent burst damage, but be prepared to bring in your A+-game if you want to stay alive.

Magicka can be summed up in two words: Annulment morphs. Harness Magicka and Dampen Magic provide shields at the very least twice as big as stamina ones, allowing them to limit the risks by a very large margin.

If someone asks in the forum whether he should bring a stamina or magicka DD for vMoL (especially HM), the answer is going to be universally magicka. Especially on the Rakkhat fight, your health as a stamina DD will drop extremely low multiple times (platform change, Unstable Void Projectile, execute phase, Lunar Phase...).

So yes, this is a critical point, since it is the number #1 reason stamina isn't used.

---

TL;DR:

• Survivability issues make magicka a better pick for difficult / risky content
• The trials mechanics and stamina being pretty much forced into being melee is an artifical limit to the maximum number of stamina DDs
• Stamina DDs' niche - single target DPS - is getting nerfed. This is the only real reason to bring stamina DDs in a trial right now. There's no such niche in the current PTS, and means stamina DDs total extinction in competitive 12-men trials.
• Currently: the part of stamina DDs in a trial group (8 DDs) is less than 25% overall. You'll have either 0, 1 or 2 stamina DDs.
• This post took 1h 12mn 07s to write, so I'm going to make some coffee right now if you don't mind.

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