Why are Stamina setups bad for Trials? (PvE)

Arrchangell

My stamblade is gonna be even more painful to play now, it was my first class, and now it's getting nerf for absolutely no reason. Rearming trap getting nerf for no reason, nobody complained about it, and the crit nerf just making it worse. I only play PvE, only played PvP for vigor and caltrops skills. People keep talking about sustain, but even the dps is being a problem now, after templar lowest dps, and ofc the must have MA weapons that are stupidly hard to get, and NB rely on them the most out of all 4 classes.

MLRPZ

Zinaroth wrote: »

So much this.

90 - 95 % of the players posting on these forums have no clue what they are talking about. Do not test things. Do not have experience with the content or aspect they comment on and have no empiric data to back up their claim. They go off based on single case scenarios which are completely useless in the grand picture. They just sit there and advocate buffs for themselves and nerfs to everyone else, and they actually think they are right. It's laughable and I *** grin when you for example have high profile streamers switching classes because they found something stronger and then don't want to aknowlege it and start advocating buffs for what they are playing.

This is why education is good for you. People need to learn how to look at things objectively, how to collect empiric data and how to present an argument.

As an Experienced PVP & PVE player I strongly agree with you, seeing both point of view is hilarious because each type of player blame the other for all the nerf that happens to their beloved char.

I do understand the need to adjust and balance things but I just think that ZOS got it wrong from the beginning by trying to balance every skill/class for both content.
They have implemented battle spirit in cyrodiil, they just need to work on it a little bit more to adjust both pve and pvp without impacting so much on the other half of the game

VelociousLegend

DangerMan wrote: »

VelociousLegend wrote: »

ZOS_DaryaK wrote:

This topic is about stamina in PVE, there are many other discussions about stamina in PVP where you are welcome to share your views.

But isn't this part of the problem? Sometimes changes are put into place to account for something occurring on the PvE side and it effects PvP; and vice versa. You can't really divide a discussion concerning skills and gear between PvP and PvE since the same skills and gear are used for both - at least until there are completely separate PvE and PvP combat system + skills. Yes, some morphs target one side or the other, but the majority of skills are ubiquitous between both realms.

If we keep looking at the problem from one side and making adverse changes without acknowledging the changes to the other, then we will forever ping pong with these balance updates...

We've focused on PvP way too much up till now. It's time we introduce balance based purely on PvE. For the past year and a half all patches have been purely focused towards PvP. My StamDK got nerfed to the ground. Then Stamina in general got nerfed to the ground. It has become so bad that people refuse to play on Stamplars and Stamblades in PvE. Proc sets are being nerfed to ***. Monster sets are being nerfed to ***. Even MagPlars are getting nerfed (J-beam, trap). And all this because PvP'ers keep crying on the forums. I can't even take my stam toons into trials because all end-game guild that want top leaderboard spots prefer magicka.

So why should we not look at PvE separately now, given that we've been purely looking at PvP all this time.. I never saw any PvP'ers complaining when PvE was going to *** because of PvP.. So they shouldn't be complaining now when/if they're on the receiving end of this bullcrap..

There have been targeted nerfs/buffs to change aspects to both PvE and PvP that affect the other. That was my point, they are linked and a change of one affects the other. The curse change was meant as a PvE sorc buff, but very much negatively affects PvP sorcs. Nerfing proc sets for PvP affects PvE dps parses. It works both ways.

f047ys3v3n

Agree with OP, especially about the stam vMA weapons (which I have all of BTW.) How can you expect to balance things when magica vMA weapons are worth like ~1.5k (this is what my new dummy testing suggests) dps and stam more like ~8k (based on others testing not my own)? Not long ago it seemed like stam was like 15k higher on single target dps. Heck, when vDSA came out I did nothing but heal stam badasses for my runs because they were just murdering it. Now, in PTS, stam seems to be similar if not a bit low on single and is still very much lacking in cleave (so is my mNB though) dps with vMA weapons and very poor without.

Ya'll should have nerfed dem vMA weapons more earlier, I think you messed up that decimal point on those dual weild weapons and just left it.

I think half of the issue here though is that all 4 final boss trial fights have been reduced to a drag adds to boss and cleave them while primarily targeting the boss strategy. Since mTemplars, mSorcs, and mDK's specifically do around 50% of their full single target dps too a closely placed add while doing that maximum single target dps rotation this basically lets you kill these, now generally very powerful and tanky adds, for free and very quickly. All 4 trials now do this as the meta for the final boss. The stam vs magica balance as well as balance within those resource classes seems to be largely boiling down to how well a toon can do boss + 1 damage in the stack with the added caveat that magica shields are of great importance specifically to the vMoL hard mode strategy (so I am told, I have not done that hard mode.) I think that good bit of the issue therefore is the trials fights themselves in addition to the stam v. magic balance.

The_Undefined

Full disclosure - I'm not a PVP'er, this is a very pro PVE post and I have no idea how this would impact PvP. I apologize that this post is very ignorant in that perspective and I'm also sorry if it is upsetting to those players that focus in that aspect of the game.

Thank you very much for this thread. It's very enlightening and I really hope ZOS looks over this for their ideas in the future. It's also incredibly depressing to see how pigeon holed class builds are in this game. It looks like for PVE there are two set ups to play: for stam = duel wield and back bow, for magic = destro and duel wield. Magic = first place and stam I guess = no place from a PVE dps perspective.

For all the weapons in this game, it's really frustrating to see that there are 2 main weapons to really choose from, only 1 per stam / mag build. It'd be great to see more BALANCE (nerfs AND buffs) across the board just to even everything out better (looking at bows and 2h for some more main use love), then I feel ZOS would have a better foundation to 'shine' up builds for specific purposes (for example: stam = better single target and magicka = better aoe - but by maybe 10k - 15k dps difference not 20-25k dps).

I know it sounds like I'm supporting homogenizing builds, and in a way I am, but at the end of the day the differences now are so vast it makes playing fun builds really not fun in comparison to your peers in this game.

I really want to support this game by bringing in friends and family (of which I have already), but it really sucks coming from say FFXIV or WoW or even GW2 to then answer the question of people coming in "what should I play" to only answer with "well, magsorc is prob the best thing to play." Personally, my group still pushes through with a stam build, but overall it's just really sad to see how little ingenuity there is to the builds in this game after reading through posts throughout these forums.

TLDR:

• ZOS should buff / nerf everything to a more level playing field in comparison to the toughest PVE content - NOT each weapon / class
• After homogenizing, ZOS should then take their time to refine bujilds (stam vs magicka) to specific purposes (single target vs AOE) but in terms of minor dps differences and not drastic gaps as it seems to be now
• More builds and weapon combos should be supported than the standard 1 or 2 meta builds there seems to be in the game

Just a quick note, after ZOS gets all the weapons in a good place, I really think this game could use additional weapons OR classes - not necessarily both at the same time.

Just my very vague 2 cents

[EDIT] I know this post is more opinion than really number crunching, but I really wanted to add to the conversation from a newbie / marketing perspective. Seriously, thanks to all the posters that go in there and really refine suggestions with evidence / experience to back it up. Threads like this teach me a lot about this game, so thank you

SublimeSparo

They need to make trial boss fights with more interesting mechanics than just nuke 1-4 targets as quickly as possible while avoiding high damage, the back room in maw is good starting place- it should've been stams place to shine- it's a race, and requires burst damage, 2 things stam a good at, but it seems like they just forgot that sorcs could streak and overload and breeze it and the rest of the mechanics in main room are pretty un-stam friendly.

Think about a mechanic that required rapidly dodgerolling under several barriers in a row to activate a switch/sigil etc it would be close to impossible for a magic class to do something like that, without significantly reducing dps.
Or one that actively punished people using damage shields, like a room wide debuff draining magicka while a damage shield is active
Simple little mechanisms like that would force diversity or more evely balance groups,

I also wonder if changing the medium armour passive granting 12% weapon damage should be changed to match light armours penetration would help as it would lessen the need for so many stam support sets

Nefaras

i have lost hope that they even care , but i dont want to go to hogwarts with my stamdk so he can become a magika dude....

so buff this thread up!

code65536

Honestly, I think stamina is fine.

The problem really lies with @ZOS_Finn's department and the design of content and certain mechanics.

For example, vMA stage 7. When you get hit by a poison plant, it applies a healing debuff. A magicka user can survive this by harnessing as they make their way to the pool, but a stamina user can't use their defensive abilities--dodges, breaks, vigor, etc.--to survive.

The same holds true for Rakkhat in vMoL. The Breath of Lorkhaj applies a healing debuff. Shields are great... except stamina's shields are very lackluster.

Making Bone Shield as effective as Harness would be unbalanced. Instead, the content and mechanics shouldn't be designed with such a bias.

Anti_Virus

Meh I knew elder robes online would make a return.

Khaos_Bane

So now the whole benchmark for classes is end game trials for competitive min/max guilds ? STA classes are weak? Are you kidding me? My STA Sorc does massive damage AoE AND ST. My STA DK does great ST DPS.

People freaking out about STA is unbelievable, especially the STA DK.

Khaos_Bane

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Stamina needs to cause more damage in order to justify their low survivability. The fact that magicka now has the same single target damage output, superior AoE, and superior survivability is not balanced at all. The issue is that the magicka community QQs whenever there's an aspect of the game they're not the best at, and ZOS listens to them.

Was the difference maker vma staff and destro ult?

I haven't played trials since before 1T came out, so what abilities/sets make magicka better in aoe and what makes it better in single target?

Just curious, not trying to challenge anybody as I don't know

Grothdar, BSW, Destro staff passives (in U13) and OP Destro Ult are IMO the main factors that make Magicka overall superior in terms of damage.

ZOS needs to buff stamina by the means of buffing class passives/abilities, and stamina weapons (specifically the 2H).

The worst way ZOS could buff/balance stamina is by throwing item sets at the issue.

They can't just throw blank buffs at stamina. They need to be very careful here.
The best way, in my opinion, is to give them an ability that is great vs mobs, but not easily useable vs players.

If that's the case we need to double the duration of the destro ult, while maintaining the same overall damage it produces.

Afterall, we need to make sure powerful abilities such as that are great vs mobs, but not easily used against players

It's good for aoe, but not single target. It's good, but the best single target ult is in fact soul assault.

It's incredibly powerful against a single target; that's why it needs to be nerfed. If it was such a terrible single target ultimate it wouldn't be banned in dueling tournaments. Also soul assault is incredibly overpowered against medium armor wearers, but underwhelming against everyone else. It's like ZOS is trying to make playing magicka idiot friendly. Right now all you need to be a killing machine is just a destro ult. No brain cells or talent need; we'll reserve that for non-proc stamina players.

How insulting. What is your problem? MAG Sorc rotations are a pain in the butt to max DPS. NB are difficult rotations to get even good DPS.

So let me get this straight. You are essentially saying that MAG players don't need skill. And this same statement is coming from someone who got massive damage from PROC sets and MSA weapons for a long time. Give me a break. Cry more.

Cadbury

So, I guess I'll soon see alot more Dunmer/Altmer magSorc vampires, huh?

Nefaras

Khaos_Bane wrote: »

So now the whole benchmark for classes is end game trials for competitive min/max guilds ? STA classes are weak? Are you kidding me? My STA Sorc does massive damage AoE AND ST. My STA DK does great ST DPS.

People freaking out about STA is unbelievable, especially the STA DK.

No the problem is sure you can beat every content as stam, but if you want to be competetive you need fa. maelstrom weapons (with the right traits) ...and you are still even with magika (ST maybe , not aoe) and have lesser survivability. And now is the question why take stam when you can have magika? There is 0 reason to do that. And that is not good.

eagles9595b16_ESO

Many exprerienced people wrote tons of comments about the actual and future STAM build problems.

I don't understand some people still argue with the fact that STAM builds will be usueless in end games trials or events.
It's a fact !
I'm a pure PVE players, I hate PVP for tons of reasons..
All those who keep saying that STAM builds are equal or better than MAG build should wonder why STAM build best healing is a PVP skill... same for AOE.
Sorcerer have their survability skills without doing anything than PVE, they have 2 shields, auto healing + magic refil skill at once (without using any magic).
I'm not going to compare the dps skills, several people demonstrated that Magic Sorc does equal or more DPS with less end game items as they don't need Vet MA to properly dps.

My main is a DW/Bow, just like many other players I'm thinking more and more about leaving the game and stoping my subscritpion.
I have magic builds.. but I don't want to be forced to use them and only them if I want to have a chance to do end games trials.

ZOS needs to rework so many things.
There will be always differences between classes...
The problem is when end games boss, dungeons mechanism eclude several classes in order to maximised the chance to complete them... STAM build with bow, 2 hands weapon are completly useless now and after patch 13.

STAM DD needs to spend hundreds of hours to have all NEEDED vMA weapons with right trait to reach the mandtory DPS for vet trials, need to waste time in pvp to have the only good hgealing skill (vigor), they have less survabilty in vet trail (no decent shield), they have to be in the heart of the battle so they can die faster = they're a risk of failure.

Sorcs don't need vMA to have good DPS, they can auto heal and refill magic with 1 skill and shield themself grealty, they stay away from bosses.

To summarise all that I would say that you can appreciate and smoke a cigar while fighting any boss with a sorc...when with a STAM build you'll eat you cigar.

I don't see anything from ZOS that would make me think differently right now.

Pangnirtung

Anti_Virus wrote: »

Meh I knew elder robes online would make a return.

LOL

Wasn't that the refrain for the first year that the game came out and we are back to square one. AGAIN

Nefaras

eagles9595b16_ESO wrote: »

Many exprerienced people wrote tons of comments about the actual and future STAM build problems.

I don't understand some people still argue with the fact that STAM builds will be usueless in end games trials or events.
It's a fact !
I'm a pure PVE players, I hate PVP for tons of reasons..
All those who keep saying that STAM builds are equal or better than MAG build should wonder why STAM build best healing is a PVP skill... same for AOE.
Sorcerer have their survability skills without doing anything than PVE, they have 2 shields, auto healing + magic refil skill at once (without using any magic).
I'm not going to compare the dps skills, several people demonstrated that Magic Sorc does equal or more DPS with less end game items as they don't need Vet MA to properly dps.

My main is a DW/Bow, just like many other players I'm thinking more and more about leaving the game and stoping my subscritpion.
I have magic builds.. but I don't want to be forced to use them and only them if I want to have a chance to do end games trials.

ZOS needs to rework so many things.
There will be always differences between classes...
The problem is when end games boss, dungeons mechanism eclude several classes in order to maximised the chance to complete them... STAM build with bow, 2 hands weapon are completly useless now and after patch 13.

STAM DD needs to spend hundreds of hours to have all NEEDED vMA weapons with right trait to reach the mandtory DPS for vet trials, need to waste time in pvp to have the only good hgealing skill (vigor), they have less survabilty in vet trail (no decent shield), they have to be in the heart of the battle so they can die faster = they're a risk of failure.

Sorcs don't need vMA to have good DPS, they can auto heal and refill magic with 1 skill and shield themself grealty, they stay away from bosses.

To summarise all that I would say that you can appreciate and smoke a cigar while fighting any boss with a sorc...when with a STAM build you'll eat you cigar.

I don't see anything from ZOS that would make me think differently right now.

the guys that argue are die hard magika players, pvp guys, a combination of both (often with a l2p issue to deal with the meta madness tanky guys), or the "keep cool balance sucks anyway" dudes.

but so much yes to what you say , if content stays this way we need some changes , i dont know why its to hard to do some changes (buffs) that dont work in pvp , many games do that this way

JinMori

Personally, i think that maelstrom daggers and axes should be completely reworked, right now they are a must if you wanna have even the slightest chance against magicka setups, this is a very bad design choice since it forces stam build to have the dlc and to use flurry as the only spammable, if they removed them completely from the game i would actually be happy, because that would mean that they could balance stamina without worrying about an item that could make the build stupidly op.

exsecror

I find myself rather disgusted that I can't seem to find even the slightest bit of recognition from a dev regarding this issue. I love my stamsorc and I feel like come patch I'm going to race change and go magicka on it and bury my several sets of gear I've invested so much into over the length of my playing... either that or go back to playing the division.. heh actually now that I mention I think I'm going to wrap up this post and go see whats new. ZOS... figure this out. We pay you lots of money to make this game enjoyable. I want the game I was promised. I want a game that I can pick any class and decide to make it how I want it and be viable in end game content...

jpeter88

overall i think we need to tone down the "omg rip stam, im going to quit if you dont change something" post because it really doesnt do any good to trying to fix the problem. Id like to see ideas on how to make stamina more viable in end game content.

Stamina more/less focuses on single target damage and poison damage.
Magicka is suppose to focus more on AOE. The problem is that magicka does good single target now to, along with all the group utility and surviveablity.

Stamina needs to get some more group utility if your gonna nerf the damage by so much. i mean the 30% dam reduction seems like a killer, im not on PTS so i have not tested it.

My idea to fix some problems without making them OP would simply start looking at unused morfs and skills. some examples off the top of my head follows:

-Deadly cloak: this skill does give a 20% AOE damage reduction which is really good but the damage of the skill is simply lackluster and makes using this skill a huge dps loss seeing right now you need to have flurry, rending slashes, venom arrow and arrow barrage on your bar to be competitive which is fine but making this a viable damage dealer would give stamina a simple way survive without losing dps.

*whirlwind now steel tornado is one of, if not the best AOE in the game. The problem with it is you have to spam cast it, which takes away from using a rotation or other skills.
Does anyone even know the name of the other morph for whirlwind? i dont, because it will never be used. id like to see a poison effect for a morph. make it so the initial damage is less or remove the added damage to lower health and give it a poison DOT. this way it would give stam users some more AOE and still incorporate into a rotation .because you dont have to spam cast it.

id like to see stam dks get some poison morfs added since that is the direction they are going. right now they really have no class AOE but have some great potential.

i like the idea of stamina getting some ground effect group utility that would make them viable to trial groups. right now they offer single target damage and thats about it. What about making an poison ground AOE much like the spit or plants give on round 7 of vma.

couple of the skills that could easily do this are the other morph of eruption where it would deal poison damage instead of fire.

change choking talons into poison damage, it already reduces the damage of enemies so this would make it so you could add a great group utility that would be sought after and you wouldnt need to lose a dps skill. In my opinion that would make stam dks on par with magicka with AOE and utility

one of the biggest issues is survivablity, there are just way to many one shot mechanics that stam simply cannot live through, 18k health is close to max without buffs without sacrificing damage that magicka is already closing the gap. i dont want to see stamina shield stacking but maybe for this patch it is needed until some other ideas could be worked in. somehow increasing the damage shield for bone shield so its more like a 9k or 10k shield in pve and reduce it in pvp is the quick easy fix.

i do not play stam temps so i really have no insight on how to fix them. This post is getting really long so imma stop but i have a lot more ideas and would like to hear more ideas thrown out there for the devs to see.

Overall to sum this up is Stamina is good at one thing and one thing only damage. i like to think there are 4 major influences in a trial

Single target damage
AOE damage
survivability
group utility

Magicka does 3 of those very good and a close second on single target.
Id like to see this even out by making magicka king of AOE and survivability and stamina king of group utility and single target damage. this would make end game competitive trial runs hope fully run 4 stam 4 mag and have them synergize better together.

jpeter88

JinMori wrote: »

Personally, i think that maelstrom daggers and axes should be completely reworked, right now they are a must if you wanna have even the slightest chance against magicka setups, this is a very bad design choice since it forces stam build to have the dlc and to use flurry as the only spammable, if they removed them completely from the game i would actually be happy, because that would mean that they could balance stamina without worrying about an item that could make the build stupidly op.

I dont entirely disagree with you but i wouldnt say nerfing VMA weps is the issue. I for one like having game changing weapons that i have to work really hard to get.It gives the game a purpose to play. having VMA weapons makes you stand out of the crowd a bit and for once your not like every other build. I do agree that right now you need VMA weps to compete in trials. it shouldnt be that way but if you do have them then i think you should be doing more damage then other stam players without them. If you want to be the best, you have to beat the best. if you dont want the dlc to get the best gear then people shouldnt wine. There needs to be more diversity if everyone is the same then this game would just be boring, you need to have things that are a hard grind, hard to beat, and better then other mentality.

The problem is that VMA weapons are the only ones out there that sets you apart from the rest of the base players. I would like to see more really hard content that gives, game changing rewards. honestly once i got my VMA weps my desire to play the game is going down because i have done the hardest content 10x over and its getting to the point where there isnt much to play for anymore. The hunt for rare items that i have to become a better player to get is what drives many players to play. If vma daggers were just a little bit better then the rest then whats the point of the grind? I want to be rewarded for doing content that many players cannot do. make more solo trials or 2 man trials and offer more diverse weapons so that VMA isnt the only game changing content.

JinMori

jpeter88 wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

Personally, i think that maelstrom daggers and axes should be completely reworked, right now they are a must if you wanna have even the slightest chance against magicka setups, this is a very bad design choice since it forces stam build to have the dlc and to use flurry as the only spammable, if they removed them completely from the game i would actually be happy, because that would mean that they could balance stamina without worrying about an item that could make the build stupidly op.

I dont entirely disagree with you but i wouldnt say nerfing VMA weps is the issue. I for one like having game changing weapons that i have to work really hard to get.It gives the game a purpose to play. having VMA weapons makes you stand out of the crowd a bit and for once your not like every other build. I do agree that right now you need VMA weps to compete in trials. it shouldnt be that way but if you do have them then i think you should be doing more damage then other stam players without them. If you want to be the best, you have to beat the best. if you dont want the dlc to get the best gear then people shouldnt wine. There needs to be more diversity if everyone is the same then this game would just be boring, you need to have things that are a hard grind, hard to beat, and better then other mentality.

The problem is that VMA weapons are the only ones out there that sets you apart from the rest of the base players. I would like to see more really hard content that gives, game changing rewards. honestly once i got my VMA weps my desire to play the game is going down because i have done the hardest content 10x over and its getting to the point where there isnt much to play for anymore. The hunt for rare items that i have to become a better player to get is what drives many players to play. If vma daggers were just a little bit better then the rest then whats the point of the grind? I want to be rewarded for doing content that many players cannot do. make more solo trials or 2 man trials and offer more diverse weapons so that VMA isnt the only game changing content.

I do have the dlc, i just think that making a single item so important is ridiculous. Builds shouldn't be strong thanks to a single item, and mediocre if you don't have them. If you buff stamina they will be op, but if You don't, practically any other setup will be underperforming compared to maelstrom, this is why i said that they should rework these weapons, they suck, putting to much power in a single item is not good design.

Reikyce

Alcast wrote: »

Hello, now in this thread I want to explain why Magicka is superior to Stamina Builds in Trial environments. I want to show you why it is basically pointless to bring Stamina setups into a Trial.

Now there is changes that affect all builds, like the aggressive warhorn or nerf. However, we all know stamina setups are built upon crit chance and increased critical damage taken.


Stamina Builds used to have a higher single target dps and that is mostly WHY we brought them into trials. However, nowadays Magicka basically gets the same Single Target dps as Stamina setups, also magicka has like 2x the AoE damage output. So why bother bringing stamina setups? There is even magicka builds that basically get the same single target dps from RANGED whereas a Stamina build has to stay melee to actually to any decent dmg at all.

Now ZOS keeps nerfing Stamina setups:
-MSA Nerf last patch (which I agree with, because Stam Setups are relying too much on those, but its only way to stay competitive)
-Aggressive Warhorn nerf
-Rearming Trap nerf (Dmg and inc crit dmg)
-Less Gearchoices viable due to inc crit modifier change
-Bow damage got slightly buffed


So why again does stamina underperform in trials?
No fake health (Harness Magicka, it is so much easier to stay alive on a magicka setup)
Much lower AoE dps compared to magicka setups (Destro Ulti for Magicka setups op) 70-80% in Trials we are fighting Trash
Approx. same Single Target DPS as Magicka setups.

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.


Take Away MSA weapons and Proc sets and stamina would both suck in PvE and PvP. So stamina builds dmg is artifically increased through MSA waeps(PvE) or Proc sets (PvP). Take away those two things and you will most likely end up with garbage.

Magicka is in any way superior and its just pointless to bring stamina setups into competitive Trial groups.

How to fix this? A lot of suggestions have been made over the past few months. I am not gonna list up any again bc it does not matter anyway, hence why am I even writing this lol?

A great post like always. Now we see if they actually care or we vote with our wallet again... defund ZOS. :-)

Nefaras

Since @Alcast made a vid about stamina setups without maWeapons we could compare them to magika st dps. If they are nearly even what i dont know because i dont play magika that much and have 2 to 3 times the aoe it would be time for some changes.

Maybe a small comment if the devs are even looking?
@ZOS_GinaBruno

LorDrek

Maelstrom weapons from single content best weapons for mmo content, ZOS logic. Nerf maelstrom weapons!!!!

DPShiro

LorDrek wrote: »

Maelstrom weapons from single content best weapons for mmo content, ZOS logic. Nerf maelstrom weapons!!!!

They have already been nerfed.

jpeter88

yea id like to see a dev comment to see if they are even looking at this issue. right now i cant even bring my stam sorc into a vet maw run, its just not allowed. ive had to switch to playing a mag dk which is my only geared magicka build atm. i wanna know if i need to focus on building up a mag sorc or something so i have something to play next patch lol.

Edziu

DPShiro wrote: »

LorDrek wrote: »

Maelstrom weapons from single content best weapons for mmo content, ZOS logic. Nerf maelstrom weapons!!!!

They have already been nerfed.

maybe, but still overpowered, difference in stam sorc/dk with those weapons and without is still around 10k, as for me its to huge gape when any mag build (except nb lol) can easily get 50k dps on trials without maelstrom staves then stam build without maelstrom duals can hit up to 40k and just after maelstrom duals stam build can catch 50k dps like mag dps.
is this good when stam build is just damn forced to get those crap rng weapons to be comparable with dps to mag build? for me its very not fair when this stam build is not allowed to go on trial with better group because his dps is just crap without malstrom duals in compare to magica dps

Asmael

Edziu wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

LorDrek wrote: »

Maelstrom weapons from single content best weapons for mmo content, ZOS logic. Nerf maelstrom weapons!!!!

They have already been nerfed.

maybe, but still overpowered, difference in stam sorc/dk with those weapons and without is still around 10k, as for me its to huge gape when any mag build (except nb lol) can easily get 50k dps on trials without maelstrom staves then stam build without maelstrom duals can hit up to 40k and just after maelstrom duals stam build can catch 50k dps like mag dps.
is this good when stam build is just damn forced to get those crap rng weapons to be comparable with dps to mag build? for me its very not fair when this stam build is not allowed to go on trial with better group because his dps is just crap without malstrom duals in compare to magica dps

Actually, the difference is much smaller than most people think it is (even it, yes, it depends on the class).

Ask @OrphanHelgen how much he is pulling on different bosses with a heavy attack build as a stam DK :^)

I prefer the more "classical" flurry setup, for which vMA daggers will mostly provide extra slots, since it reduces the number of DoTs to slot.

Edziu

Asmael wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

DPShiro wrote: »

LorDrek wrote: »

Maelstrom weapons from single content best weapons for mmo content, ZOS logic. Nerf maelstrom weapons!!!!

They have already been nerfed.

maybe, but still overpowered, difference in stam sorc/dk with those weapons and without is still around 10k, as for me its to huge gape when any mag build (except nb lol) can easily get 50k dps on trials without maelstrom staves then stam build without maelstrom duals can hit up to 40k and just after maelstrom duals stam build can catch 50k dps like mag dps.
is this good when stam build is just damn forced to get those crap rng weapons to be comparable with dps to mag build? for me its very not fair when this stam build is not allowed to go on trial with better group because his dps is just crap without malstrom duals in compare to magica dps

Actually, the difference is much smaller than most people think it is (even it, yes, it depends on the class).

Ask @OrphanHelgen how much he is pulling on different bosses with a heavy attack build as a stam DK :^)

I prefer the more "classical" flurry setup, for which vMA daggers will mostly provide extra slots, since it reduces the number of DoTs to slot.

playing on live, stam nb dd, no maelstrom duals, max 40k+- dps single target without adds on stationary boss, my friend mag dk is pulling on same boss 55k+- dps and other also very good friend on stam sorc with maelstrom duals 50k dps

I was few days ago on test run with very good raid guild which is doing hardmodes weakly and vmol(no hardmode yet )

im in hunding, VO and kragh and master bow on stam nb and when I had this 40k+- dps ons tationry boss they predicted I will have much lower dps, they was just shocked when I pulled this 40k dps on stamblade without maelstrom weapons

and to compare, people from them, mag sorc (range dps ofc) 45k+- dps, mag dk 50k+ and stam dk (maelstrom duals) around 47k dps, they were not theit the best players from guild

this is just small compare mag dps to stam dps with and without maelstrom duals

VampiricByNature

It is already very hard to incorporate many players in the community because stamina is so much less desired in trials. A lot of the trials have mechanics that disable the usage of too many melee characters. [Maw first boss curses, sanctum popcorn.. ] Maybe they even need to consider a range stamina build that is viable to make it competitive with mag. [Instead of frost staff tanking, maybe]
No one is going to want stamina characters in their trials now. Very sad.