Why are Stamina setups bad for Trials? (PvE)

Gilliamtherogue

Edziu wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue
we have still better arguments to take mag DD's instead of stamina on trials for better scores while as I wrote : stamina is getting maybe just a bit but still is on the way nerfing more, losing a bit more in dps and being less wanted to take on trials because of more lack in dps and surviv from patch to patch now

I already commented that Stamina is inferior in every way shape and form to Magicka in terms of DPS right now. I also understand that the devs do stuff for a reason, and that even if this patch goes live that it isn't going to be the end of the game. The second we get proof and show them inconsistencies with real evidence they will make change, so I don't mind. The real issue is people on the forums and other social media that just complain about out of context information that they have no clue anything about, before they even test themselves. The devs are tired of people jumping to conclusions and acting like children every patch before they get their hands on stuff.

DPShiro

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

And we have a DW nerf.

That nerf was already in the base PTS patch.

Yeah so?
Doesn't change that fact that it only makes stamina less useful and makes even the last dw users aka templars reevaluate.

Almost seems like ZOS needs to compensate for something with basically forcing every player a long stick in their hands.

We lost 3% weapon damage from weapons. That's 40 weapon damage, which isn't affected by Major/minor brutality or other % amps because it hit a passive instead of the base. That's less than 100 DPS loss, calm down.

Its a not needed nerf nonetheless however small it may be.

And if i understand it right they changed how much less sd/wd the 2nd weapons adds which is then affected by major minor buffs.

Im also not in anyway outraged. Actually pretty calm.

Live servers;

PTS servers;

39 WD difference with Major Brut up + 5 medium armor passive.

Without Major Brut I have 2823 WD on live and on 2789 PTS. So yeah, it is being affected by buffs. Maximum of 51 WD lost if you're a sorc with Major/Minor brut and Flawless main barred (altho, not sure why you'd do that)

The 6% bonus passive, Dual Wield Expert, is also no longer granting Spell Damage, so that's also a nerf to Magicka using them (mainly Templars).

If this last bit is intended then RIP DW for magicka.

xblackroxe

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

And we have a DW nerf.

That nerf was already in the base PTS patch.

Yeah so?
Doesn't change that fact that it only makes stamina less useful and makes even the last dw users aka templars reevaluate.

Almost seems like ZOS needs to compensate for something with basically forcing every player a long stick in their hands.

We lost 3% weapon damage from weapons. That's 40 weapon damage, which isn't affected by Major/minor brutality or other % amps because it hit a passive instead of the base. That's less than 100 DPS loss, calm down.

Its a not needed nerf nonetheless however small it may be.

And if i understand it right they changed how much less sd/wd the 2nd weapons adds which is then affected by major minor buffs.

Im also not in anyway outraged. Actually pretty calm.

Live servers;

PTS servers;

39 WD difference with Major Brut up + 5 medium armor passive.

Without Major Brut I have 2823 WD on live and on 2789 PTS. So yeah, it is being affected by buffs. Maximum of 51 WD lost if you're a sorc with Major/Minor brut and Flawless main barred (altho, not sure why you'd do that)

The 6% bonus passive, Dual Wield Expert, is also no longer granting Spell Damage, so that's also a nerf to Magicka using them (mainly Templars).

I never said its a huge nerf but its one. And its toraly not called for.

Stamina isn't worth to take into trials, DW is far outclassed by other weapons for stamina in pvp and with the buffs to staffs also less desireable for magicka chars in both pve and pvp.

So I just don't see a single reason for this change.

Gilliamtherogue

xblackroxe wrote: »

I never said its a huge nerf but its one. And its toraly not called for.

Stamina isn't worth to take into trials, DW is far outclassed by other weapons for stamina in pvp and with the buffs to staffs also less desireable for magicka chars in both pve and pvp.

So I just don't see a single reason for this change.

To lessen the raw stat imbalance between Dual Wield and Bows/2 Handers? That's pretty obvious to see if you compare Dual Wield to any other stamina based weapon from a DPS perspective, Dual Wield has a complete advantage over the rest and raw stats play a pretty big role. Not saying I agree with the nerf, just saying that it's pretty obvious to see what ZoS is trying to do.

rosendoichinoveb17_ESO

From a 600CP noob points of view:

I prefer running stamina as I never favored mages in any games. However when i PvE a single target immovable boss my DPS is as follows:

~15k DPS when running stamina build (when using Corrosive Armor or Dragon Stand with MSA daggers)
Yea, I know I''ve seen people doing over 40k DPS but I am talking from the casual player's point of view.

~25k DPS when running magicka build (or more depending on applied debuffs without applying any ults with MSA sharpened inferno staff)

Once again, I am not that good at DPS-ing, but I try to apply the rotations. In addition, with magicka build, almost all my my abilities in rotation are DoT so I need no sustain to have them applied indefinitely.

So yea, Stamina DPS-ing either needs some sustain buffs, or better yet it needs to provide some kind of utility.

Edziu

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

I never said its a huge nerf but its one. And its toraly not called for.

Stamina isn't worth to take into trials, DW is far outclassed by other weapons for stamina in pvp and with the buffs to staffs also less desireable for magicka chars in both pve and pvp.

So I just don't see a single reason for this change.

To lessen the raw stat imbalance between Dual Wield and Bows/2 Handers? That's pretty obvious to see if you compare Dual Wield to any other stamina based weapon from a DPS perspective, Dual Wield has a complete advantage over the rest and raw stats play a pretty big role. Not saying I agree with the nerf, just saying that it's pretty obvious to see what ZoS is trying to do.

I just saying, 2h and bow is fully disandventage to any other dps, not only in compare to dual wield stamina dps but also in compare to any other magica build while dual wield dps i comparable into magica dps, its not problem with dual wields, its problem with not viable bow and 2h dps.

in this way which we have (a bit very small nerf into this dual to be less advantage into 2h) ZOS is going then to nerf more dual with nerfnt fully stam dps comparing to magic dps instead of buffing 2h and bow dps to be atleast viable and comparable with rest of those DPS's

xblackroxe

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

I never said its a huge nerf but its one. And its toraly not called for.

Stamina isn't worth to take into trials, DW is far outclassed by other weapons for stamina in pvp and with the buffs to staffs also less desireable for magicka chars in both pve and pvp.

So I just don't see a single reason for this change.

To lessen the raw stat imbalance between Dual Wield and Bows/2 Handers? That's pretty obvious to see if you compare Dual Wield to any other stamina based weapon from a DPS perspective, Dual Wield has a complete advantage over the rest and raw stats play a pretty big role. Not saying I agree with the nerf, just saying that it's pretty obvious to see what ZoS is trying to do.

Did you even read my comment?

The only place where dw is actually in no way outclassed is for stam dps in pve.
And even that is outclassed by magicka.

The raw stat increase and the extra set bonus is the only thing dw has actually going for it. In pvp other weapons have far better passives and skills.

So no its definitely not a logical step if you think about it for 1min. And thats something I can expect from zos for sure.

usmcjdking

If they want to take away a lot of stam damage, then they need to make stam tanky as heck.

Medium Armor needs a 4% dmg reduction to AOE damage per armor piece to be useful.

Edited to remove profanity

Gilliamtherogue

xblackroxe wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

I never said its a huge nerf but its one. And its toraly not called for.

Stamina isn't worth to take into trials, DW is far outclassed by other weapons for stamina in pvp and with the buffs to staffs also less desireable for magicka chars in both pve and pvp.

So I just don't see a single reason for this change.

To lessen the raw stat imbalance between Dual Wield and Bows/2 Handers? That's pretty obvious to see if you compare Dual Wield to any other stamina based weapon from a DPS perspective, Dual Wield has a complete advantage over the rest and raw stats play a pretty big role. Not saying I agree with the nerf, just saying that it's pretty obvious to see what ZoS is trying to do.

Did you even read my comment?

The only place where dw is actually in no way outclassed is for stam dps in pve.
And even that is outclassed by magicka.

The raw stat increase and the extra set bonus is the only thing dw has actually going for it. In pvp other weapons have far better passives and skills.

So no its definitely not a logical step if you think about it for 1min. And thats something I can expect from zos for sure.

Since you're struggling to read, I'll recopy and bolden.
"Not saying I agree with the nerf, just saying that it's pretty obvious to see what ZoS is trying to do."
There's a difference from attempting and succeeding. ZoS *attempted* to bring DW and 2h+bow more in line, but will not *succeed*. You said you didn't see a reason, which the reason is clear. It's just that their attempted route to attain that reason will fail.

Maybe ZoS should start enforcing some reading comprehension lessons before you can post on the forums.

Strider_Roshin

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

Edziu wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue
we have still better arguments to take mag DD's instead of stamina on trials for better scores while as I wrote : stamina is getting maybe just a bit but still is on the way nerfing more, losing a bit more in dps and being less wanted to take on trials because of more lack in dps and surviv from patch to patch now

I already commented that Stamina is inferior in every way shape and form to Magicka in terms of DPS right now. I also understand that the devs do stuff for a reason, and that even if this patch goes live that it isn't going to be the end of the game. The second we get proof and show them inconsistencies with real evidence they will make change, so I don't mind. The real issue is people on the forums and other social media that just complain about out of context information that they have no clue anything about, before they even test themselves. The devs are tired of people jumping to conclusions and acting like children every patch before they get their hands on stuff.

@Gilliamtherogue well you've inspired me. I think I'm going to make a 'Jump to Conclusions' mat just for the forum community.

You see, it will be this mat with different conclusions... That you could... Jump to!

DangerMan

Ag

Alcast wrote: »

Hello, now in this thread I want to explain why Magicka is superior to Stamina Builds in Trial environments. I want to show you why it is basically pointless to bring Stamina setups into a Trial.

Now there is changes that affect all builds, like the aggressive warhorn or nerf. However, we all know stamina setups are built upon crit chance and increased critical damage taken.


Stamina Builds used to have a higher single target dps and that is mostly WHY we brought them into trials. However, nowadays Magicka basically gets the same Single Target dps as Stamina setups, also magicka has like 2x the AoE damage output. So why bother bringing stamina setups? There is even magicka builds that basically get the same single target dps from RANGED whereas a Stamina build has to stay melee to actually to any decent dmg at all.

Now ZOS keeps nerfing Stamina setups:
-MSA Nerf last patch (which I agree with, because Stam Setups are relying too much on those, but its only way to stay competitive)
-Aggressive Warhorn nerf
-Rearming Trap nerf (Dmg and inc crit dmg)
-Less Gearchoices viable due to inc crit modifier change
-Bow damage got slightly buffed


So why again does stamina underperform in trials?
No fake health (Harness Magicka, it is so much easier to stay alive on a magicka setup)
Much lower AoE dps compared to magicka setups (Destro Ulti for Magicka setups op) 70-80% in Trials we are fighting Trash
Approx. same Single Target DPS as Magicka setups.

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.


Take Away MSA weapons and Proc sets and stamina would both suck in PvE and PvP. So stamina builds dmg is artifically increased through MSA waeps(PvE) or Proc sets (PvP). Take away those two things and you will most likely end up with garbage.

Magicka is in any way superior and its just pointless to bring stamina setups into competitive Trial groups.

How to fix this? A lot of suggestions have been made over the past few months. I am not gonna list up any again bc it does not matter anyway, hence why am I even writing this lol?

Devs have nerfed stamina so much that none of my end-game trial guilds want to take any stamina characters into trials. Magicka characters pull slightly less DPS, but have way more survivability due to proper shields (harness).

Basically for me it's either start playing Magicka, or quit the game... Now I don't mind playing Magicka, but as someone who's 'mained' a stam character, it'll take ages to get used to playing Magicka properly.. They advocate build diversity, yet push us into a meta every time a patch drops..

LiquidPony

DangerMan wrote: »

Ag

Alcast wrote: »

Hello, now in this thread I want to explain why Magicka is superior to Stamina Builds in Trial environments. I want to show you why it is basically pointless to bring Stamina setups into a Trial.

Now there is changes that affect all builds, like the aggressive warhorn or nerf. However, we all know stamina setups are built upon crit chance and increased critical damage taken.


Stamina Builds used to have a higher single target dps and that is mostly WHY we brought them into trials. However, nowadays Magicka basically gets the same Single Target dps as Stamina setups, also magicka has like 2x the AoE damage output. So why bother bringing stamina setups? There is even magicka builds that basically get the same single target dps from RANGED whereas a Stamina build has to stay melee to actually to any decent dmg at all.

Now ZOS keeps nerfing Stamina setups:
-MSA Nerf last patch (which I agree with, because Stam Setups are relying too much on those, but its only way to stay competitive)
-Aggressive Warhorn nerf
-Rearming Trap nerf (Dmg and inc crit dmg)
-Less Gearchoices viable due to inc crit modifier change
-Bow damage got slightly buffed


So why again does stamina underperform in trials?
No fake health (Harness Magicka, it is so much easier to stay alive on a magicka setup)
Much lower AoE dps compared to magicka setups (Destro Ulti for Magicka setups op) 70-80% in Trials we are fighting Trash
Approx. same Single Target DPS as Magicka setups.

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.


Take Away MSA weapons and Proc sets and stamina would both suck in PvE and PvP. So stamina builds dmg is artifically increased through MSA waeps(PvE) or Proc sets (PvP). Take away those two things and you will most likely end up with garbage.

Magicka is in any way superior and its just pointless to bring stamina setups into competitive Trial groups.

How to fix this? A lot of suggestions have been made over the past few months. I am not gonna list up any again bc it does not matter anyway, hence why am I even writing this lol?

Devs have nerfed stamina so much that none of my end-game trial guilds want to take any stamina characters into trials. Magicka characters pull slightly less DPS, but have way more survivability due to proper shields (harness).

Basically for me it's either start playing Magicka, or quit the game... Now I don't mind playing Magicka, but as someone who's 'mained' a stam character, it'll take ages to get used to playing Magicka properly.. They advocate build diversity, yet push us into a meta every time a patch drops..

What, you're not looking forward to the 8 x Magsorc raid meta in the next patch?

Oh well. At least my stamblade still has the potential to rip up Maelstrom in a way that Magicka builds can't match. I guess that's the "Trial" we're meant to run.

Edziu

DangerMan wrote: »

Ag

Alcast wrote: »

Hello, now in this thread I want to explain why Magicka is superior to Stamina Builds in Trial environments. I want to show you why it is basically pointless to bring Stamina setups into a Trial.

Now there is changes that affect all builds, like the aggressive warhorn or nerf. However, we all know stamina setups are built upon crit chance and increased critical damage taken.


Stamina Builds used to have a higher single target dps and that is mostly WHY we brought them into trials. However, nowadays Magicka basically gets the same Single Target dps as Stamina setups, also magicka has like 2x the AoE damage output. So why bother bringing stamina setups? There is even magicka builds that basically get the same single target dps from RANGED whereas a Stamina build has to stay melee to actually to any decent dmg at all.

Now ZOS keeps nerfing Stamina setups:
-MSA Nerf last patch (which I agree with, because Stam Setups are relying too much on those, but its only way to stay competitive)
-Aggressive Warhorn nerf
-Rearming Trap nerf (Dmg and inc crit dmg)
-Less Gearchoices viable due to inc crit modifier change
-Bow damage got slightly buffed


So why again does stamina underperform in trials?
No fake health (Harness Magicka, it is so much easier to stay alive on a magicka setup)
Much lower AoE dps compared to magicka setups (Destro Ulti for Magicka setups op) 70-80% in Trials we are fighting Trash
Approx. same Single Target DPS as Magicka setups.

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.


Take Away MSA weapons and Proc sets and stamina would both suck in PvE and PvP. So stamina builds dmg is artifically increased through MSA waeps(PvE) or Proc sets (PvP). Take away those two things and you will most likely end up with garbage.

Magicka is in any way superior and its just pointless to bring stamina setups into competitive Trial groups.

How to fix this? A lot of suggestions have been made over the past few months. I am not gonna list up any again bc it does not matter anyway, hence why am I even writing this lol?

Devs have nerfed stamina so much that none of my end-game trial guilds want to take any stamina characters into trials. Magicka characters pull slightly less DPS, but have way more survivability due to proper shields (harness).

Basically for me it's either start playing Magicka, or quit the game... Now I don't mind playing Magicka, but as someone who's 'mained' a stam character, it'll take ages to get used to playing Magicka properly.. They advocate build diversity, yet push us into a meta every time a patch drops..

is this then back time sice game release when any stam build doesnt exsist? only 100% magica build, do we are going back to this? I think yes because now good player especially with good small groups are again able to perm block on dk on pvp, is this also time to return mag dk to rekt full zerg solo? xD

J'skaar Habasi

There's so much truth here. I'm in a less competitive vet trial group and even we just can't have stam dps around anymore.

Our stam sorcs and dks aren't pulling 60k DPS, more like 40k. That's just not acceptable. We've discovered utility is the key. In our guild Mag NBs and Sorcs pulling 40k are "a dime a dozen," and have more utility. Well, now that I think for a second our Mag NBs and Sorcs don't rez for ***. The Mag NB, he's using force pulse so he's not really healing anymore and he refuses to run Veil. But my point is we have the utility available. Stam guys got nothing.

It's so true, stam DPS is a one trick pony. We get so many people wanting to brag about their Bloodspawn DPS. It breaks my heart to turn away good single target DPS when we take them through Wayrest Sewers to test their AoE DPS. Seriously, if the trash isn't gone by the time the dude finishes "come to me my minions" it's game over.

Don't get me started about all the stam DPS falling over dead because they're in melee range. Since the nerf to Healing Springs, you know the one where only the tank receives heals, stam DPS doesn't stand a chance. I was checking out magicka builds and everyone includes a shield, it's just not fair.

Seriously ZOS, stam is just barely pulling 60k DPS and you want to nerf us more. Might as well call this game Elder Staves Online.

Gilliamtherogue

J'skaar Habasi wrote: »

Might as well call this game Elder Staves Online.

Then we'll have come full circle. This game once was called that already.

Izaki

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

J'skaar Habasi wrote: »

Might as well call this game Elder Staves Online.

Then we'll have come full circle. This game once was called that already.

I was about to say that.

reclaimervii.sierra117ub17_ESO

Lol ZO$ wont do anything sadly. Try convicing people to stop buying from the crown store / dlc's and you will have their attention. IF a company is losing money they will obviously start rethinking *** and improving, but if that cash flow keep coming then why change anything?

DHale

It's sad the Devs will never read this. But thank you for the time and effort.

LiquidPony

DHale wrote: »

It's sad the Devs will never read this. But thank you for the time and effort.

Please don't crush my hopes and dreams.

luen79rwb17_ESO

I frankly just don't undestand... Just a few weeks ago YouTube was flooded with stam Sorcs / stam Dks pulling crazy dps in trials and melting VMSA Bosses, simply ignoring all of the mechanics and owning in PVP... I still don't see stuff like that with magicka players, and the game definately shouldn't be balanced around Trials' trash and destro staff ultimate.

Subversus

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Stamina needs to cause more damage in order to justify their low survivability. The fact that magicka now has the same single target damage output, superior AoE, and superior survivability is not balanced at all. The issue is that the magicka community QQs whenever there's an aspect of the game they're not the best at, and ZOS listens to them.

Was the difference maker vma staff and destro ult?

I haven't played trials since before 1T came out, so what abilities/sets make magicka better in aoe and what makes it better in single target?

Just curious, not trying to challenge anybody as I don't know

Grothdar, BSW, Destro staff passives (in U13) and OP Destro Ult are IMO the main factors that make Magicka overall superior in terms of damage.

ZOS needs to buff stamina by the means of buffing class passives/abilities, and stamina weapons (specifically the 2H).

The worst way ZOS could buff/balance stamina is by throwing item sets at the issue.

They can't just throw blank buffs at stamina. They need to be very careful here.
The best way, in my opinion, is to give them an ability that is great vs mobs, but not easily useable vs players.

If that's the case we need to double the duration of the destro ult, while maintaining the same overall damage it produces.

Afterall, we need to make sure powerful abilities such as that are great vs mobs, but not easily used against players

It's good for aoe, but not single target. It's good, but the best single target ult is in fact soul assault.

It's incredibly powerful against a single target; that's why it needs to be nerfed. If it was such a terrible single target ultimate it wouldn't be banned in dueling tournaments. Also soul assault is incredibly overpowered against medium armor wearers, but underwhelming against everyone else. It's like ZOS is trying to make playing magicka idiot friendly. Right now all you need to be a killing machine is just a destro ult. No brain cells or talent need; we'll reserve that for non-proc stamina players.

True I only slot soul assault vs medium armor, it's useless vs blocks and shields. But it's great vs bosses, it's always number 1 on my dps chart, elemental storm is pretty low on my charts due to the horrible uptime.

But this destro ult is super easy to avoid and to survive by single players. It needs no nerfing at all.

Only because it's easy to avoid as a single player doesn't mean it needs no nerfing at all. Don't take this the wrong way, Dracane, but literally all your suggestions in this thread (and in this forum to be frank) are biased towards your class being on top. Don't buff stamina, you wouldn't want pet sorcs to have to break a sweat to kill them now right? Don't nerf destro ult, we wouldn't want Dracane to not be able to 1vX as easily anymore, am I right? Again, try to see this from the perspective of other classes :P

LiquidPony

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

I frankly just don't undestand... Just a few weeks ago YouTube was flooded with stam Sorcs / stam Dks pulling crazy dps in trials and melting VMSA Bosses, simply ignoring all of the mechanics and owning in PVP... I still don't see stuff like that with magicka players, and the game definately shouldn't be balanced around Trials' trash and destro staff ultimate.

Take a look at the Trials groups on the leaderboards and see how many stam DPS are included. 1 or 2 per group at most.

And why shouldn't trash pulls in Trials be considered when balancing the game? That's a significant part of the end game, particularly in the most difficult Trials (vSO and vMoL).

Dubhliam

The fix here is rather easy... come to think of it.

• Buff the Critical rating from Twin Blade and Blunt dagger passive
• Buff the Cleave damage and/or the shield from Brawler
• Buff the Critical rating from Accuracy Bow passive

And I'm not a real advocate for buffs.
In fact, most of my balancing suggestions usually revolve around nerfs.

Nifty2g

give them a shield. oh wait cant do that lol pvp lol

banned from using shields

mr_wazzabi

Nifty2g wrote: »

give them a shield. oh wait cant do that lol pvp lol

banned from using shields

Here's how you fix bone shield. Make it scale off stamina. Make it de-activate major evasion for its duration.

Problem solved.

Ragnaroek93

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

give them a shield. oh wait cant do that lol pvp lol

banned from using shields

Here's how you fix bone shield. Make it scale off stamina. Make it de-activate major evasion for its duration.

Problem solved.

Please no. Shields are already a terrible design (aren't critable but have zero defense... wtf is that). I don't want them on stamina chars, it would be super broken to run around with 50k stamina as Redguard and being able to stack crazy amounts of shields.

Liofa

I will be getting so much hate for posting what is below . Well , whatever .

Reading this thread makes me sad really . PvP players coming here , speaking nonsense and trying to prevent buffs to Stamina . Really sad . Saying that Soul Assault is the best single target ultimate in a PvE thread . Yeah ...

I want to talk about Bone Shield . When ZOS tried to make Bone Shield scale with Stamina , people cried so much , they had to take it back . No one , literally , no one ever bothered to actually see how useless it was . It was costing crapton (still does) and was giving 3k shield on a 30k Stamina character . 3k . I went on PTS and tested it myself . This would be 7-8k in PvE which is again not as useful as magicka shields but still would help solving the survivability problem of Stamina DDs .

Now , I want to ask those PvP ''heroes'' , 3k shield that costs more than 3k Stamina , why did it hurt you so bad ? This disgusting , crap community knows nothing , always cries for nerfs and because ZOS has to listen to community , stuff like this happens . Look at where Stamina Templar is right now . Look at where all Stamina DDs right now . This is what this ''player''base caused . They are literally useless when you can get a Magicka DD instead . Next patch , at least from what we have , it will be even worse .

Stamina builds were perma rolling . PvP players cried . Stamina builds nerfed .

Stamina builds had a ''shield'' for 1 patch of PTS . PvP players cried . ZOS revert it .

Stamina builds had proc sets . PvP players cried . ZOS nerfed them .

Stamina builds got nerfed so much over the years , they became useless in PvE . They were top choice for 2 patches because of high DPS . Did it worth it ? No . People realized that Magicka is actually more powerful because of being able to play range and have more survivability and everyone started completing vMoL HM with Magicka DDs . It was only a rush of wanting to play the highest DPS . Magicka was always superior . People just realized it later . Do you really think vMoL HM was not possible back in the day ? We can nuke it now . I am sure it was possible . But with 8 Stamina DDs , it couldn't be done .

And these Magicka players who think they are not strong . Will you please , at least not post videos of killing 20 people by yourself ? Make what you say believable at least . I admit , they are really good players but don't be selfish . In a thread , asking for buffs ; in another thread posting videos of killing 20 people by himself/herself . I do not blame ZOS . I blame this crap community . I can't believe that people still think proc sets are the real issue . Just take a look at every PTS patch notes thread in this games history . Crying over and over again . Without testing . Just crying . People actually thought Minor Magickasteal would stack and Templars would be able to perma block with frost staff . Are you serious ? These people are the real issue . There is a huge community that tries to prevent buffs to certain classes/builds and cry for buffs to their own classes/builds . It is really annoying . ZOS shouldn't listen to any of this bullcrap and they should just do what they think is better . Yes , I actually prefer Wrobel's decisions instead of this community's .

One more thing to say . I am kindly asking . If you think you are not a PvE player that has actual experience , please , don't write in this thread with your useless opinions . You are not helping .

Give Stamina players a nice AOE DOT that they can actually do AOE damage with , not like small-ass Endless Hail . Something like Elemental Blockade .

Make stamina players viable in ranged combat . You buffed Bow damage by 10% . Surprise ZOS . It still sucks .

I don't know if you noticed , I don't ask for mitigation . Playing melee as a Stamina DD should be risky in my opinion . But now , especially on next patch , it doesn't worth it at all . If I can do same DPS with a Magicka character , having shields and being able to play ranged ; why would I risk my life playing Stamina and destroy score runs ? I hope ZOS addresses this issue . I am waiting for real balance for PvE in the next week's patch notes .

lonewolf26

It's very disappointing that we've come full circle. Trials began as skirts and staves online and they returned to this again in One Tamriel. Then to further cripple stamina-based dps in the PTS releases thus far. Thoroughly disappointing that the developers, in order to give themselves opportunity space to design in, had to reduce opportunity space for players by reducing their effectiveness.

You want a sorc build? We need range -go magicka.

You want a templar build? Magika templar, stamplar's dead.

You want a nightblade build? Reroll, the entire class is dead. This one hurts me the most since I mained a stamblade for two years and now I can faceroll my keyboard on my magicka sorc and pull higher numbers.

Do you want the strongest dk build? Roll a magikca dk, stamina's not survivable enough and their damage numbers are weaker than magicka. Two patches ago I was fine to run Maw of Lorkhaj backroom on a stam DK even with the broken invisible orbs issues. We got our first clear that way.

Stamina had come a long way to become viable in Trials. One Tamriel ushered them to the grave. Update 13 is shaping up to lower the casket and shovel on the grave soil.

R.I.P. stamina.

Nifty2g

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

give them a shield. oh wait cant do that lol pvp lol

banned from using shields

Here's how you fix bone shield. Make it scale off stamina. Make it de-activate major evasion for its duration.

Problem solved.

Please no. Shields are already a terrible design (aren't critable but have zero defence... wtf is that). I don't want them on stamina chars, it would be super broken to run around with 50k stamina as Redguard and being able to stack crazy amounts of shields.

See the thing is, shields are alright for PVE, it's kind of the only way to account for the high damage this game has taken and how they use high damage for a source of difficulty.
Without a shield you are almost useless in PVE, which is heavily affected on stamina players, so this is a result of PVE and PVP not making a mix, because its highly op in 1 scenario and highly needed for the other, you need to make a sacrifice.

Which is mainly where the problem lies I think. There is a thing of risk/reward and I agree compeltely, but please don't try and tell me the risk is not running a shield because the damage is so *** out of hand in PVE if you dont use a shield you're useless. So the risk/reward is that playing a stamina you wont get to be in competitive raids, and the rewards is on the off chance your leader is an idiot and might invite you, and you might get very lucky and no bad RNG combo line ups to instantly kill you.

Do we really have to balance PVE like this? I mean really

My honest opinion? Give stamina a shield and then make adjustments for PVP, this shouldnt be such a balance issue to the point it makes something useless in the other half of the game. A shield is not a risk/reward gameplay, it's turned into a necessity

Ragnaroek93

Nifty2g wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

give them a shield. oh wait cant do that lol pvp lol

banned from using shields

Here's how you fix bone shield. Make it scale off stamina. Make it de-activate major evasion for its duration.

Problem solved.

Please no. Shields are already a terrible design (aren't critable but have zero defence... wtf is that). I don't want them on stamina chars, it would be super broken to run around with 50k stamina as Redguard and being able to stack crazy amounts of shields.

See the thing is, shields are alright for PVE, it's kind of the only way to account for the high damage this game has taken and how they use high damage for a source of difficulty.
Without a shield you are almost useless in PVE, which is heavily affected on stamina players, so this is a result of PVE and PVP not making a mix, because its highly op in 1 scenario and highly needed for the other, you need to make a sacrifice.

Which is mainly where the problem lies I think. There is a thing of risk/reward and I agree compeltely, but please don't try and tell me the risk is not running a shield because the damage is so *** out of hand in PVE if you dont use a shield you're useless. So the risk/reward is that playing a stamina you wont get to be in competitive raids, and the rewards is on the off chance your leader is an idiot and might invite you, and you might get very lucky and no bad RNG combo line ups to instantly kill you.

Do we really have to balance PVE like this? I mean really

My honest opinion? Give stamina a shield and then make adjustments for PVP, this shouldnt be such a balance issue to the point it makes something useless in the other half of the game. A shield is not a risk/reward gameplay, it's turned into a necessity

I agree that medium armor needs some love in both PvE and PvP. I just don't like to have a silly damage shield on my stamblade. If you want to hear my honest opinion: I think it's a huge design mistake to let defensive skills and offensive skills scale with the same stat. Shields scaling with damage stats is even worse than healing scaling with damage stats because health becomes much less important on shield builds.