Why are Stamina setups bad for Trials? (PvE)

Reikyce

One more PTS patch let`s see if they listen...

jpeter88

Reikyce wrote: »

One more PTS patch let`s see if they listen...

does it come out tomorrow with the maintenance?

itscompton

Alcast wrote: »

Hello, now in this thread I want to explain why Magicka is superior to Stamina Builds in Trial environments. I want to show you why it is basically pointless to bring Stamina setups into a Trial.

Now there is changes that affect all builds, like the aggressive warhorn or nerf. However, we all know stamina setups are built upon crit chance and increased critical damage taken.


Stamina Builds used to have a higher single target dps and that is mostly WHY we brought them into trials. However, nowadays Magicka basically gets the same Single Target dps as Stamina setups, also magicka has like 2x the AoE damage output. So why bother bringing stamina setups? There is even magicka builds that basically get the same single target dps from RANGED whereas a Stamina build has to stay melee to actually to any decent dmg at all.

Now ZOS keeps nerfing Stamina setups:
-MSA Nerf last patch (which I agree with, because Stam Setups are relying too much on those, but its only way to stay competitive)
-Aggressive Warhorn nerf
-Rearming Trap nerf (Dmg and inc crit dmg)
-Less Gearchoices viable due to inc crit modifier change
-Bow damage got slightly buffed


So why again does stamina underperform in trials?
No fake health (Harness Magicka, it is so much easier to stay alive on a magicka setup)
Much lower AoE dps compared to magicka setups (Destro Ulti for Magicka setups op) 70-80% in Trials we are fighting Trash
Approx. same Single Target DPS as Magicka setups.

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.


Take Away MSA weapons and Proc sets and stamina would both suck in PvE and PvP. So stamina builds dmg is artifically increased through MSA waeps(PvE) or Proc sets (PvP). Take away those two things and you will most likely end up with garbage.

Magicka is in any way superior and its just pointless to bring stamina setups into competitive Trial groups.

How to fix this? A lot of suggestions have been made over the past few months. I am not gonna list up any again bc it does not matter anyway, hence why am I even writing this lol?

Making stam players better at single target and magic players better at AOE is just a flawed premise from the get go. They should each be equally able to do either with abilities/gear being the way one builds for one or the other.

Shadzilla

Liofa wrote: »

I will be getting so much hate for posting what is below . Well , whatever .

Reading this thread makes me sad really . PvP players coming here , speaking nonsense and trying to prevent buffs to Stamina . Really sad . Saying that Soul Assault is the best single target ultimate in a PvE thread . Yeah ...

I want to talk about Bone Shield . When ZOS tried to make Bone Shield scale with Stamina , people cried so much , they had to take it back . No one , literally , no one ever bothered to actually see how useless it was . It was costing crapton (still does) and was giving 3k shield on a 30k Stamina character . 3k . I went on PTS and tested it myself . This would be 7-8k in PvE which is again not as useful as magicka shields but still would help solving the survivability problem of Stamina DDs .

Now , I want to ask those PvP ''heroes'' , 3k shield that costs more than 3k Stamina , why did it hurt you so bad ? This disgusting , crap community knows nothing , always cries for nerfs and because ZOS has to listen to community , stuff like this happens . Look at where Stamina Templar is right now . Look at where all Stamina DDs right now . This is what this ''player''base caused . They are literally useless when you can get a Magicka DD instead . Next patch , at least from what we have , it will be even worse .

Stamina builds were perma rolling . PvP players cried . Stamina builds nerfed .

Stamina builds had a ''shield'' for 1 patch of PTS . PvP players cried . ZOS revert it .

Stamina builds had proc sets . PvP players cried . ZOS nerfed them .

Stamina builds got nerfed so much over the years , they became useless in PvE . They were top choice for 2 patches because of high DPS . Did it worth it ? No . People realized that Magicka is actually more powerful because of being able to play range and have more survivability and everyone started completing vMoL HM with Magicka DDs . It was only a rush of wanting to play the highest DPS . Magicka was always superior . People just realized it later . Do you really think vMoL HM was not possible back in the day ? We can nuke it now . I am sure it was possible . But with 8 Stamina DDs , it couldn't be done .

And these Magicka players who think they are not strong . Will you please , at least not post videos of killing 20 people by yourself ? Make what you say believable at least . I admit , they are really good players but don't be selfish . In a thread , asking for buffs ; in another thread posting videos of killing 20 people by himself/herself . I do not blame ZOS . I blame this crap community . I can't believe that people still think proc sets are the real issue . Just take a look at every PTS patch notes thread in this games history . Crying over and over again . Without testing . Just crying . People actually thought Minor Magickasteal would stack and Templars would be able to perma block with frost staff . Are you serious ? These people are the real issue . There is a huge community that tries to prevent buffs to certain classes/builds and cry for buffs to their own classes/builds . It is really annoying . ZOS shouldn't listen to any of this bullcrap and they should just do what they think is better . Yes , I actually prefer Wrobel's decisions instead of this community's .

One more thing to say . I am kindly asking . If you think you are not a PvE player that has actual experience , please , don't write in this thread with your useless opinions . You are not helping .

Give Stamina players a nice AOE DOT that they can actually do AOE damage with , not like small-ass Endless Hail . Something like Elemental Blockade .

Make stamina players viable in ranged combat . You buffed Bow damage by 10% . Surprise ZOS . It still sucks .

I don't know if you noticed , I don't ask for mitigation . Playing melee as a Stamina DD should be risky in my opinion . But now , especially on next patch , it doesn't worth it at all . If I can do same DPS with a Magicka character , having shields and being able to play ranged ; why would I risk my life playing Stamina and destroy score runs ? I hope ZOS addresses this issue . I am waiting for real balance for PvE in the next week's patch notes .

Awesome post. I would love to see zos go one or two patches buffing/nerfing the things that are really important. Maybe if they had like 3-5 top tier PVE raid/guild leaders from each server that they could have long in depth discussions with over how to go about balancing. It seems every patch is just who can come onto the forums and cry the most. The more attention/crying something gets on the forums are the things that get changed first. Sad.

Shadzilla

Nifty2g wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

give them a shield. oh wait cant do that lol pvp lol

banned from using shields

Here's how you fix bone shield. Make it scale off stamina. Make it de-activate major evasion for its duration.

Problem solved.

Please no. Shields are already a terrible design (aren't critable but have zero defence... wtf is that). I don't want them on stamina chars, it would be super broken to run around with 50k stamina as Redguard and being able to stack crazy amounts of shields.

See the thing is, shields are alright for PVE, it's kind of the only way to account for the high damage this game has taken and how they use high damage for a source of difficulty.
Without a shield you are almost useless in PVE, which is heavily affected on stamina players, so this is a result of PVE and PVP not making a mix, because its highly op in 1 scenario and highly needed for the other, you need to make a sacrifice.

Which is mainly where the problem lies I think. There is a thing of risk/reward and I agree compeltely, but please don't try and tell me the risk is not running a shield because the damage is so *** out of hand in PVE if you dont use a shield you're useless. So the risk/reward is that playing a stamina you wont get to be in competitive raids, and the rewards is on the off chance your leader is an idiot and might invite you, and you might get very lucky and no bad RNG combo line ups to instantly kill you.

Do we really have to balance PVE like this? I mean really

My honest opinion? Give stamina a shield and then make adjustments for PVP, this shouldnt be such a balance issue to the point it makes something useless in the other half of the game. A shield is not a risk/reward gameplay, it's turned into a necessity

Awesome post, bumped.

Shadzilla

Saw a large amount of QQing over vma daggers? They don't need to be nerfed, they already were. Too much I might add. Keep in mind cruel flurry doesn't buff any aoe dmg... 95% of the fights in this game have adds. Stam is so far behind on aoe, and soon to be behind in single target... Stamina survivability in end game competitive trials is rough to say the least. Mag is superior in almost every way. Go zos, amazing balance. Oh yea before I forget, please tack on a bigger damage nerf to trap. There are waaaaaay too many overpowered stamina parses on AA and MOL hardmodes all over youtube right now. #nerfstam

TheHsN

It wasnt your youtube videos 50k+ DPS's with stamina classes??? or it was someone elses?

Liofa

TheHsN wrote: »

It wasnt your youtube videos 50k+ DPS's with stamina classes??? or it was someone elses?

Here we go , again .

Every class , Magicka or Stamina can pull 50k+ . It is not DPS . No one here wants a DPS boost to Stamina . You may not know this but most of the time we spend in a trial is for trash fights and better AOE DPS = faster trash fights which results in higher score . Stamina has almost nothing in terms of AOE . Endless Hail is really , really small and is considered single target skill . Caltrops doesn't stack and much weaker than any Magicka AOE skill like Blockade .

Same thing applies to boss fights . While Magicka can burn every add that spawns near boss while still doing almost the same single target DPS , Stamina can only get 5k more single target at most and almost zero AOE damage on adds .

There are also fights that if you just shield yourself , everything is much faster and easier . Backyard running in Rakkhat for example . Stamina has Bone Shield which disappears in a split second . Don't even mention it .

Stamina has to play melee which is a great risk for yourself and teammates . There are some fights that more melee means higher chance of death like first boss vMoL and Mage in vAA .

I just wanted to summarize a little bit . I kindly ask you , please , go read the thread from start to here . If you still think Stamina doesn't need buffs , you can just continue posting unproductive comments .

Shadzilla

TheHsN wrote: »

It wasnt your youtube videos 50k+ DPS's with stamina classes??? or it was someone elses?

My last 4 sentences were sarcasm...

itscompton

Liofa wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

It wasnt your youtube videos 50k+ DPS's with stamina classes??? or it was someone elses?

Here we go , again .

Every class , Magicka or Stamina can pull 50k+ . It is not DPS . No one here wants a DPS boost to Stamina . You may not know this but most of the time we spend in a trial is for trash fights and better AOE DPS = faster trash fights which results in higher score . Stamina has almost nothing in terms of AOE . Endless Hail is really , really small and is considered single target skill . Caltrops doesn't stack and much weaker than any Magicka AOE skill like Blockade .

Same thing applies to boss fights . While Magicka can burn every add that spawns near boss while still doing almost the same single target DPS , Stamina can only get 5k more single target at most and almost zero AOE damage on adds .

There are also fights that if you just shield yourself , everything is much faster and easier . Backyard running in Rakkhat for example . Stamina has Bone Shield which disappears in a split second . Don't even mention it .

Stamina has to play melee which is a great risk for yourself and teammates . There are some fights that more melee means higher chance of death like first boss vMoL and Mage in vAA .

I just wanted to summarize a little bit . I kindly ask you , please , go read the thread from start to here . If you still think Stamina doesn't need buffs , you can just continue posting unproductive comments .

Forgetting about acid spray? I have a Stamblade that I use it on and it hits everything in front of me for 6-10K per cast. It's pretty spammable too. Yes Elemental Blockade is better in that you put it down and then use other abilities on top of it but the dps is only 1/3 to 1/2 of Acid Spray and it's a smaller AOE.

Edziu

itscompton wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

TheHsN wrote: »

It wasnt your youtube videos 50k+ DPS's with stamina classes??? or it was someone elses?

Here we go , again .

Every class , Magicka or Stamina can pull 50k+ . It is not DPS . No one here wants a DPS boost to Stamina . You may not know this but most of the time we spend in a trial is for trash fights and better AOE DPS = faster trash fights which results in higher score . Stamina has almost nothing in terms of AOE . Endless Hail is really , really small and is considered single target skill . Caltrops doesn't stack and much weaker than any Magicka AOE skill like Blockade .

Same thing applies to boss fights . While Magicka can burn every add that spawns near boss while still doing almost the same single target DPS , Stamina can only get 5k more single target at most and almost zero AOE damage on adds .

There are also fights that if you just shield yourself , everything is much faster and easier . Backyard running in Rakkhat for example . Stamina has Bone Shield which disappears in a split second . Don't even mention it .

Stamina has to play melee which is a great risk for yourself and teammates . There are some fights that more melee means higher chance of death like first boss vMoL and Mage in vAA .

I just wanted to summarize a little bit . I kindly ask you , please , go read the thread from start to here . If you still think Stamina doesn't need buffs , you can just continue posting unproductive comments .

Forgetting about acid spray? I have a Stamblade that I use it on and it hits everything in front of me for 6-10K per cast. It's pretty spammable too. Yes Elemental Blockade is better in that you put it down and then use other abilities on top of it but the dps is only 1/3 to 1/2 of Acid Spray and it's a smaller AOE.

lol

steel tornado is as spammable hitting for 10-15k+ per cast and more more if mobs have health aat finishers

and do you thing people magica builds just spam ele blockade for aoe dps? lol this is evident just ground dot like endless hail so how you thing acid spray with spam is better aoe dps than ele blockade? of course I understand you though people just casting this blockade and waiting until this end or just spamming this so this is why you thing acid spray is better for aoe if is spammable in compare to ele blockade lol

jpeter88

Forgetting about acid spray? I have a Stamblade that I use it on and it hits everything in front of me for 6-10K per cast. It's pretty spammable too. Yes Elemental Blockade is better in that you put it down and then use other abilities on top of it but the dps is only 1/3 to 1/2 of Acid Spray and it's a smaller AOE.
[/quote]

lol, just lol. 6-10k per cast on acid sparay......so while your spamming this as aoe you are going 10k dps a second maybe 14k with endless hail up....compared to 50K that magicka is doing because you can drop your aoe and continue your damage rotation.

thats the main problem with stam is yes steel tornado is good damage but being that you have to spam cast it means you are only doing that damage and no other dps meaning HUGE dps loss. thats why i proposed giving the other morph of steel tornado that nobody uses a bleed DoT so that you can at least cast it and continue with your rotation. endless hail needs a radius buff because its tiny and make caltrops stack in PVE. acid spray is just not a good skill now that is why i have NEVER seen it being used in trials and if it was they would be kicked instantly.

DragonBound

itscompton wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Hello, now in this thread I want to explain why Magicka is superior to Stamina Builds in Trial environments. I want to show you why it is basically pointless to bring Stamina setups into a Trial.

Now there is changes that affect all builds, like the aggressive warhorn or nerf. However, we all know stamina setups are built upon crit chance and increased critical damage taken.


Stamina Builds used to have a higher single target dps and that is mostly WHY we brought them into trials. However, nowadays Magicka basically gets the same Single Target dps as Stamina setups, also magicka has like 2x the AoE damage output. So why bother bringing stamina setups? There is even magicka builds that basically get the same single target dps from RANGED whereas a Stamina build has to stay melee to actually to any decent dmg at all.

Now ZOS keeps nerfing Stamina setups:
-MSA Nerf last patch (which I agree with, because Stam Setups are relying too much on those, but its only way to stay competitive)
-Aggressive Warhorn nerf
-Rearming Trap nerf (Dmg and inc crit dmg)
-Less Gearchoices viable due to inc crit modifier change
-Bow damage got slightly buffed


So why again does stamina underperform in trials?
No fake health (Harness Magicka, it is so much easier to stay alive on a magicka setup)
Much lower AoE dps compared to magicka setups (Destro Ulti for Magicka setups op) 70-80% in Trials we are fighting Trash
Approx. same Single Target DPS as Magicka setups.

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.


Take Away MSA weapons and Proc sets and stamina would both suck in PvE and PvP. So stamina builds dmg is artifically increased through MSA waeps(PvE) or Proc sets (PvP). Take away those two things and you will most likely end up with garbage.

Magicka is in any way superior and its just pointless to bring stamina setups into competitive Trial groups.

How to fix this? A lot of suggestions have been made over the past few months. I am not gonna list up any again bc it does not matter anyway, hence why am I even writing this lol?

Making stam players better at single target and magic players better at AOE is just a flawed premise from the get go. They should each be equally able to do either with abilities/gear being the way one builds for one or the other.

Considering stamsorc relies on aoe that wouldn't even apply, so yea your right.

Shadzilla

This thread needs more action, bump. I will QQ as much as possible for all the stam toons out there, which is about 5-10% of all dps in end game competitive trials groups. #keepnerfin

Izaki

IMO we need another ground placed DoT that is somewhat comparable to Blockade... That way stamina builds won't be too strong in Cyrodiil, but they will have the cleave/AoE potential they need so much. The Rapid Strikes meta, is relatively fun at first, but at some point it does get boring to see all classes with the same set-up (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Deadly Cloak/Steel Tornado, Endless Hail, Poison Injection, Rearming Trap, Rend and a few class skills to fill the empty slots).

IF stamina does receive a ground placed AoE of some sort that is comparable to Wall of Elements, then the vMA dual wield weapons/Rapid Strikes DPS meta will be far too strong. So a rework or a nerf to Maelstrom Dual Wield weapons will have to take place, which is totally fine because stamina will have more options than just empowering every DoT they have to compete with magicka set-ups in PvE DPS. The added damage on DoTs can be taken all the way down to 500 weapon/spell damage at it won't affect the DPS difference too much at all because of that extra AoE. Some classes will fit the Maelstrom dual wield better than others, namely Stamina Sorcerer and Stamina DK, while others will rely on their class skills more, aka Stamina Templar with Jabs and Stamina NB with Surprise Attack.

It is highly unlikely that Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spears, Ash Cloud or Twisting Path will get stamina morphs. So the question is which skill has the potential of becoming a universal AoE ground placed DoT? We already have Endless Hail/Arrow Barrage.

This is just my opinion. If ZOS prefers to keep the stamina AoE DPS as limited as it is now, then the Rearming Trap damage nerf should be reverted. At this point its likely that stamina DPS will surpass magicka in the single target portion of the fight, but not by much. Stamina will still be the inferior option in terms of cleave damage, AoE damage, utility and survivability. And some classes are in a worse place than others, Templars and Nightblades. What each of those classes lack is a different topic, but another option to proc Burning Light for Templars and a single target DoT for Nightblades should do the trick.

Nefaras

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IMO we need another ground placed DoT that is somewhat comparable to Blockade... That way stamina builds won't be too strong in Cyrodiil, but they will have the cleave/AoE potential they need so much. The Rapid Strikes meta, is relatively fun at first, but at some point it does get boring to see all classes with the same set-up (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Deadly Cloak/Steel Tornado, Endless Hail, Poison Injection, Rearming Trap, Rend and a few class skills to fill the empty slots).

IF stamina does receive a ground placed AoE of some sort that is comparable to Wall of Elements, then the vMA dual wield weapons/Rapid Strikes DPS meta will be far too strong. So a rework or a nerf to Maelstrom Dual Wield weapons will have to take place, which is totally fine because stamina will have more options than just empowering every DoT they have to compete with magicka set-ups in PvE DPS. The added damage on DoTs can be taken all the way down to 500 weapon/spell damage at it won't affect the DPS difference too much at all because of that extra AoE. Some classes will fit the Maelstrom dual wield better than others, namely Stamina Sorcerer and Stamina DK, while others will rely on their class skills more, aka Stamina Templar with Jabs and Stamina NB with Surprise Attack.

It is highly unlikely that Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spears, Ash Cloud or Twisting Path will get stamina morphs. So the question is which skill has the potential of becoming a universal AoE ground placed DoT? We already have Endless Hail/Arrow Barrage.

This is just my opinion. If ZOS prefers to keep the stamina AoE DPS as limited as it is now, then the Rearming Trap damage nerf should be reverted. At this point its likely that stamina DPS will surpass magicka in the single target portion of the fight, but not by much. Stamina will still be the inferior option in terms of cleave damage, AoE damage, utility and survivability. And some classes are in a worse place than others, Templars and Nightblades. What each of those classes lack is a different topic, but another option to proc Burning Light for Templars and a single target DoT for Nightblades should do the trick.

To me it doesnt matter if magika will always do a *** tone of more aoe dmg, if stamina is ahead in ST dps the same % as magika is ahead in aoe damage. Then the trial groups would mix out there teams. But a better stamina shield or other survivability skill is needed. Perfect skill here would be Deadly Cloak ...and this new def component should be weakened when you jump into pvp an we all are fine. But if stam need Maelstrom Weapons to even be competetiv this should show that there is a problem, the most players here know this why they cant see it?

1 comment that they will adjust stamina before the next content patch comes out is enough , a clear statement that they see the problems we do. But i have lost hope xD

Shadzilla

Stamina needs an ult that calls down daggers from the sky. 50 foot radius that follows you anywhere u go. UNBLOCKABLE... Has damage so insane that timing 2 of these aoe ults together can wipe 20-40 people in cyro in a heartbeat. Also with an option for a non moving morph, that does more damage. This will bring balance back to pvp and pve.

idk

austinwalter87ub17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Hello, now in this thread I want to explain why Magicka is superior to Stamina Builds in Trial environments. I want to show you why it is basically pointless to bring Stamina setups into a Trial.

Now there is changes that affect all builds, like the aggressive warhorn or nerf. However, we all know stamina setups are built upon crit chance and increased critical damage taken.


Stamina Builds used to have a higher single target dps and that is mostly WHY we brought them into trials. However, nowadays Magicka basically gets the same Single Target dps as Stamina setups, also magicka has like 2x the AoE damage output. So why bother bringing stamina setups? There is even magicka builds that basically get the same single target dps from RANGED whereas a Stamina build has to stay melee to actually to any decent dmg at all.

Now ZOS keeps nerfing Stamina setups:
-MSA Nerf last patch (which I agree with, because Stam Setups are relying too much on those, but its only way to stay competitive)
-Aggressive Warhorn nerf
-Rearming Trap nerf (Dmg and inc crit dmg)
-Less Gearchoices viable due to inc crit modifier change
-Bow damage got slightly buffed


So why again does stamina underperform in trials?
No fake health (Harness Magicka, it is so much easier to stay alive on a magicka setup)
Much lower AoE dps compared to magicka setups (Destro Ulti for Magicka setups op) 70-80% in Trials we are fighting Trash
Approx. same Single Target DPS as Magicka setups.

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.


Take Away MSA weapons and Proc sets and stamina would both suck in PvE and PvP. So stamina builds dmg is artifically increased through MSA waeps(PvE) or Proc sets (PvP). Take away those two things and you will most likely end up with garbage.

Magicka is in any way superior and its just pointless to bring stamina setups into Trial groups.

How to fix this? A lot of suggestions have been made over the past few months. I am not gonna list up any again bc it does not matter anyway, hence why am I even writing this lol?

Perhaps Stamina needs to bring an element of utility to trials which is impossible to be without and impossible to get elsewhere? That way stamina is not sought solely for its damage.

@austinwalter87ub17_ESO

What utility do you suggest that would overcome the lower DPS that could not easily be provided otherwise? Templars have PoL but that is probably not enough and a healer can run it.

jpeter88

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IMO we need another ground placed DoT that is somewhat comparable to Blockade... That way stamina builds won't be too strong in Cyrodiil, but they will have the cleave/AoE potential they need so much. The Rapid Strikes meta, is relatively fun at first, but at some point it does get boring to see all classes with the same set-up (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Deadly Cloak/Steel Tornado, Endless Hail, Poison Injection, Rearming Trap, Rend and a few class skills to fill the empty slots).

IF stamina does receive a ground placed AoE of some sort that is comparable to Wall of Elements, then the vMA dual wield weapons/Rapid Strikes DPS meta will be far too strong. So a rework or a nerf to Maelstrom Dual Wield weapons will have to take place, which is totally fine because stamina will have more options than just empowering every DoT they have to compete with magicka set-ups in PvE DPS. The added damage on DoTs can be taken all the way down to 500 weapon/spell damage at it won't affect the DPS difference too much at all because of that extra AoE. Some classes will fit the Maelstrom dual wield better than others, namely Stamina Sorcerer and Stamina DK, while others will rely on their class skills more, aka Stamina Templar with Jabs and Stamina NB with Surprise Attack.

It is highly unlikely that Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spears, Ash Cloud or Twisting Path will get stamina morphs. So the question is which skill has the potential of becoming a universal AoE ground placed DoT? We already have Endless Hail/Arrow Barrage.

This is just my opinion. If ZOS prefers to keep the stamina AoE DPS as limited as it is now, then the Rearming Trap damage nerf should be reverted. At this point its likely that stamina DPS will surpass magicka in the single target portion of the fight, but not by much. Stamina will still be the inferior option in terms of cleave damage, AoE damage, utility and survivability. And some classes are in a worse place than others, Templars and Nightblades. What each of those classes lack is a different topic, but another option to proc Burning Light for Templars and a single target DoT for Nightblades should do the trick.

I think ive posted this on here already but the perfect AoE skill would be the other morph of steel tornado.....making it do initial damage and then a bleed DoT over 10 seconds or so. it would be a simple fix and universal to all stam chars, it also doesnt break pvp. you give stamina that skill and somehow make bone shield work for pve and just nerf it through battle spirit in pvp (not really sure how that works lol) and stamina would be fine in End game

OrphanHelgen

Liofa wrote: »

I will be getting so much hate for posting what is below . Well , whatever .

Reading this thread makes me sad really . PvP players coming here , speaking nonsense and trying to prevent buffs to Stamina . Really sad . Saying that Soul Assault is the best single target ultimate in a PvE thread . Yeah ...

I want to talk about Bone Shield . When ZOS tried to make Bone Shield scale with Stamina , people cried so much , they had to take it back . No one , literally , no one ever bothered to actually see how useless it was . It was costing crapton (still does) and was giving 3k shield on a 30k Stamina character . 3k . I went on PTS and tested it myself . This would be 7-8k in PvE which is again not as useful as magicka shields but still would help solving the survivability problem of Stamina DDs .

Now , I want to ask those PvP ''heroes'' , 3k shield that costs more than 3k Stamina , why did it hurt you so bad ? This disgusting , crap community knows nothing , always cries for nerfs and because ZOS has to listen to community , stuff like this happens . Look at where Stamina Templar is right now . Look at where all Stamina DDs right now . This is what this ''player''base caused . They are literally useless when you can get a Magicka DD instead . Next patch , at least from what we have , it will be even worse .

Stamina builds were perma rolling . PvP players cried . Stamina builds nerfed .

Stamina builds had a ''shield'' for 1 patch of PTS . PvP players cried . ZOS revert it .

Stamina builds had proc sets . PvP players cried . ZOS nerfed them .

Stamina builds got nerfed so much over the years , they became useless in PvE . They were top choice for 2 patches because of high DPS . Did it worth it ? No . People realized that Magicka is actually more powerful because of being able to play range and have more survivability and everyone started completing vMoL HM with Magicka DDs . It was only a rush of wanting to play the highest DPS . Magicka was always superior . People just realized it later . Do you really think vMoL HM was not possible back in the day ? We can nuke it now . I am sure it was possible . But with 8 Stamina DDs , it couldn't be done .

And these Magicka players who think they are not strong . Will you please , at least not post videos of killing 20 people by yourself ? Make what you say believable at least . I admit , they are really good players but don't be selfish . In a thread , asking for buffs ; in another thread posting videos of killing 20 people by himself/herself . I do not blame ZOS . I blame this crap community . I can't believe that people still think proc sets are the real issue . Just take a look at every PTS patch notes thread in this games history . Crying over and over again . Without testing . Just crying . People actually thought Minor Magickasteal would stack and Templars would be able to perma block with frost staff . Are you serious ? These people are the real issue . There is a huge community that tries to prevent buffs to certain classes/builds and cry for buffs to their own classes/builds . It is really annoying . ZOS shouldn't listen to any of this bullcrap and they should just do what they think is better . Yes , I actually prefer Wrobel's decisions instead of this community's .

One more thing to say . I am kindly asking . If you think you are not a PvE player that has actual experience , please , don't write in this thread with your useless opinions . You are not helping .

Give Stamina players a nice AOE DOT that they can actually do AOE damage with , not like small-ass Endless Hail . Something like Elemental Blockade .

Make stamina players viable in ranged combat . You buffed Bow damage by 10% . Surprise ZOS . It still sucks .

I don't know if you noticed , I don't ask for mitigation . Playing melee as a Stamina DD should be risky in my opinion . But now , especially on next patch , it doesn't worth it at all . If I can do same DPS with a Magicka character , having shields and being able to play ranged ; why would I risk my life playing Stamina and destroy score runs ? I hope ZOS addresses this issue . I am waiting for real balance for PvE in the next week's patch notes .

DragonBound

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

Liofa wrote: »

I will be getting so much hate for posting what is below . Well , whatever .

Reading this thread makes me sad really . PvP players coming here , speaking nonsense and trying to prevent buffs to Stamina . Really sad . Saying that Soul Assault is the best single target ultimate in a PvE thread . Yeah ...

I want to talk about Bone Shield . When ZOS tried to make Bone Shield scale with Stamina , people cried so much , they had to take it back . No one , literally , no one ever bothered to actually see how useless it was . It was costing crapton (still does) and was giving 3k shield on a 30k Stamina character . 3k . I went on PTS and tested it myself . This would be 7-8k in PvE which is again not as useful as magicka shields but still would help solving the survivability problem of Stamina DDs .

Now , I want to ask those PvP ''heroes'' , 3k shield that costs more than 3k Stamina , why did it hurt you so bad ? This disgusting , crap community knows nothing , always cries for nerfs and because ZOS has to listen to community , stuff like this happens . Look at where Stamina Templar is right now . Look at where all Stamina DDs right now . This is what this ''player''base caused . They are literally useless when you can get a Magicka DD instead . Next patch , at least from what we have , it will be even worse .

Stamina builds were perma rolling . PvP players cried . Stamina builds nerfed .

Stamina builds had a ''shield'' for 1 patch of PTS . PvP players cried . ZOS revert it .

Stamina builds had proc sets . PvP players cried . ZOS nerfed them .

Stamina builds got nerfed so much over the years , they became useless in PvE . They were top choice for 2 patches because of high DPS . Did it worth it ? No . People realized that Magicka is actually more powerful because of being able to play range and have more survivability and everyone started completing vMoL HM with Magicka DDs . It was only a rush of wanting to play the highest DPS . Magicka was always superior . People just realized it later . Do you really think vMoL HM was not possible back in the day ? We can nuke it now . I am sure it was possible . But with 8 Stamina DDs , it couldn't be done .

And these Magicka players who think they are not strong . Will you please , at least not post videos of killing 20 people by yourself ? Make what you say believable at least . I admit , they are really good players but don't be selfish . In a thread , asking for buffs ; in another thread posting videos of killing 20 people by himself/herself . I do not blame ZOS . I blame this crap community . I can't believe that people still think proc sets are the real issue . Just take a look at every PTS patch notes thread in this games history . Crying over and over again . Without testing . Just crying . People actually thought Minor Magickasteal would stack and Templars would be able to perma block with frost staff . Are you serious ? These people are the real issue . There is a huge community that tries to prevent buffs to certain classes/builds and cry for buffs to their own classes/builds . It is really annoying . ZOS shouldn't listen to any of this bullcrap and they should just do what they think is better . Yes , I actually prefer Wrobel's decisions instead of this community's .

One more thing to say . I am kindly asking . If you think you are not a PvE player that has actual experience , please , don't write in this thread with your useless opinions . You are not helping .

Give Stamina players a nice AOE DOT that they can actually do AOE damage with , not like small-ass Endless Hail . Something like Elemental Blockade .

Make stamina players viable in ranged combat . You buffed Bow damage by 10% . Surprise ZOS . It still sucks .

I don't know if you noticed , I don't ask for mitigation . Playing melee as a Stamina DD should be risky in my opinion . But now , especially on next patch , it doesn't worth it at all . If I can do same DPS with a Magicka character , having shields and being able to play ranged ; why would I risk my life playing Stamina and destroy score runs ? I hope ZOS addresses this issue . I am waiting for real balance for PvE in the next week's patch notes .

Wow that's messed up.

Dracane

I think the best solution to help stam trial dps, is to give them a stamina version of lightning splash.
Transform trapping webs into a 4 meter ground based aoe that lasts for 8 or 10 seconds and deals good poison dps.

This way, stamina dps should be flawless again, without buffing them too much in pvp. Because the extra work needed to keep players in this aoe shouldn't be worth it.

Nefaras

the only way they will ever look ist to QQ more. So please no Elder Robes Online !

Cadbury

"Forget it, Jake. It's Magicka town."

Nefaras

One of my stam characters before patch:








After homestead release:

Silver_Strider

I'll just leave this here again.

1) Circle of Protection - Give it a HoT or a DoT. The skill has potential as a support skill but it needs that little extra push to make it actually useful enough to be worth slotting. Making it either a HoT or DoT would really help out as it becomes a great support ability for stamina players while also boosting their overall survivability and/or damage output in AoE situations.

2) Bone Shield - Let it scale off Stamina. This was the 1 change I was really looking forward to when they 1st announced they would. Sadly, ZOS decided against it but I'm still going to advocate they rethink that decision and make it scale off stamina. It would help survivability in trials for Stamina builds so they aren't a complete liability. And before anyone says it would make them too powerful in PvP, that's a load of rubbish and here's why. You would need to invest pretty much 100 points into Bastion to even make Bone Shield worth it in PvP which means you lose out on the Unchained passive from the Lady Constellation, which is HUGE. It essentially becomes a choice between sustain and survivability and I know that I would be hard pressed to let Unchained go for 1 shield, especially since it would mean lowering my CP in other important resistances as well.

3) Trapping Web - This entire skill needs to be reworked. A 5 second delay for a cheap payoff that is likely to miss due to the enemy moving out of its poor radius is just awful. It's called Trapping Webs but any moron can get out of it with a simple side step because it's outright pitiful. Either make it a ranged AoE immobilize with a half decent radius or make it so that I throw the web on a target which deals a Poison DoT with a bigger burst tick at the end of its duration.

Some class changes would be appreciated as well of course but since I'm mostly familiar with NB as Stamina, I'll leave other classes up to other more knowledgeable players to fill in. As for Nb though

Debilitate - Change it to Disease Damage for Stamblades. Every stamblade is practically begging at that this point for Debilitate to be a Stamina DoT and really it's an underutilized skill in it's current state so why not? Sure, there might be a handful of people that would object and say keep Debilitate as it is but I honestly feel that Stamblades need it much more than Magblade does.

Power Extraction - What I would truly like to see of this ability is for it to be made similar to the old Poison Mist of Vampires and surround the Nb in a miasma of disease damage for an AoE DoT that also granting Major Brutality for its duration. Barring that, I'd settle for an increase in ranged and damage so that it's at least on par with Steel tornado.

saten

Nefaras wrote: »

One of my stam characters before patch:








After homestead release:

He looks so sad

Nefaras

@saten , he is my friend. Look at his arms all that muscle training for nothing!

@Silver_Strider i like your bone shield suggestion, the shield was like this in the pts when it was introduced right?

Izaki

Nefaras wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

IMO we need another ground placed DoT that is somewhat comparable to Blockade... That way stamina builds won't be too strong in Cyrodiil, but they will have the cleave/AoE potential they need so much. The Rapid Strikes meta, is relatively fun at first, but at some point it does get boring to see all classes with the same set-up (Rapid Strikes, Rending Slashes, Deadly Cloak/Steel Tornado, Endless Hail, Poison Injection, Rearming Trap, Rend and a few class skills to fill the empty slots).

IF stamina does receive a ground placed AoE of some sort that is comparable to Wall of Elements, then the vMA dual wield weapons/Rapid Strikes DPS meta will be far too strong. So a rework or a nerf to Maelstrom Dual Wield weapons will have to take place, which is totally fine because stamina will have more options than just empowering every DoT they have to compete with magicka set-ups in PvE DPS. The added damage on DoTs can be taken all the way down to 500 weapon/spell damage at it won't affect the DPS difference too much at all because of that extra AoE. Some classes will fit the Maelstrom dual wield better than others, namely Stamina Sorcerer and Stamina DK, while others will rely on their class skills more, aka Stamina Templar with Jabs and Stamina NB with Surprise Attack.

It is highly unlikely that Liquid Lightning, Blazing Spears, Ash Cloud or Twisting Path will get stamina morphs. So the question is which skill has the potential of becoming a universal AoE ground placed DoT? We already have Endless Hail/Arrow Barrage.

This is just my opinion. If ZOS prefers to keep the stamina AoE DPS as limited as it is now, then the Rearming Trap damage nerf should be reverted. At this point its likely that stamina DPS will surpass magicka in the single target portion of the fight, but not by much. Stamina will still be the inferior option in terms of cleave damage, AoE damage, utility and survivability. And some classes are in a worse place than others, Templars and Nightblades. What each of those classes lack is a different topic, but another option to proc Burning Light for Templars and a single target DoT for Nightblades should do the trick.

To me it doesnt matter if magika will always do a *** tone of more aoe dmg, if stamina is ahead in ST dps the same % as magika is ahead in aoe damage. Then the trial groups would mix out there teams. But a better stamina shield or other survivability skill is needed. Perfect skill here would be Deadly Cloak ...and this new def component should be weakened when you jump into pvp an we all are fine. But if stam need Maelstrom Weapons to even be competetiv this should show that there is a problem, the most players here know this why they cant see it?

1 comment that they will adjust stamina before the next content patch comes out is enough , a clear statement that they see the problems we do. But i have lost hope xD

Survivability is fine if you're built properly and know what you're doing. I think that it should stay that way. Stamina is harder to play in terms of both rotations and survivability, so if we do get a DPS bump, then it will be worth it.

It doesn't matter how much single target damage you do, most of the fights in a trial are AoE. Until stamina has decent cleave damage, magicka will always be the preferred option for trials.

Izaki

Dracane wrote: »

I think the best solution to help stam trial dps, is to give them a stamina version of lightning splash.
Transform trapping webs into a 4 meter ground based aoe that lasts for 8 or 10 seconds and deals good poison dps.

This way, stamina dps should be flawless again, without buffing them too much in pvp. Because the extra work needed to keep players in this aoe shouldn't be worth it.

That by itself would actually make maelstrom set ups, in particular stamina DK, way too strong. Ideally we'd have class skills, but that will never happen so if ZOS are to focus on stamina, a revert to the 30% nerf to the damage of Rearming Trap is enough to make them better at single target. Also at least make stamina templar and NB on par with the other two...