Edziu wrote: »

@Gilliamtherogue
we have still better arguments to take mag DD's instead of stamina on trials for better scores while as I wrote : stamina is getting maybe just a bit but still is on the way nerfing more, losing a bit more in dps and being less wanted to take on trials because of more lack in dps and surviv from patch to patch now

I already commented that Stamina is inferior in every way shape and form to Magicka in terms of DPS right now. I also understand that the devs do stuff for a reason, and that even if this patch goes live that it isn't going to be the end of the game. The second we get proof and show them inconsistencies with real evidence they will make change, so I don't mind. The real issue is people on the forums and other social media that just complain about out of context information that they have no clue anything about, before they even test themselves. The devs are tired of people jumping to conclusions and acting like children every patch before they get their hands on stuff.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

And we have a DW nerf.

That nerf was already in the base PTS patch.

Yeah so?
Doesn't change that fact that it only makes stamina less useful and makes even the last dw users aka templars reevaluate.

Almost seems like ZOS needs to compensate for something with basically forcing every player a long stick in their hands.

We lost 3% weapon damage from weapons. That's 40 weapon damage, which isn't affected by Major/minor brutality or other % amps because it hit a passive instead of the base. That's less than 100 DPS loss, calm down.

Its a not needed nerf nonetheless however small it may be.

And if i understand it right they changed how much less sd/wd the 2nd weapons adds which is then affected by major minor buffs.

Im also not in anyway outraged. Actually pretty calm.

Live servers;

PTS servers;

39 WD difference with Major Brut up + 5 medium armor passive.

Without Major Brut I have 2823 WD on live and on 2789 PTS. So yeah, it is being affected by buffs. Maximum of 51 WD lost if you're a sorc with Major/Minor brut and Flawless main barred (altho, not sure why you'd do that)

The 6% bonus passive, Dual Wield Expert, is also no longer granting Spell Damage, so that's also a nerf to Magicka using them (mainly Templars).

I never said its a huge nerf but its one. And its toraly not called for.

Stamina isn't worth to take into trials, DW is far outclassed by other weapons for stamina in pvp and with the buffs to staffs also less desireable for magicka chars in both pve and pvp.

So I just don't see a single reason for this change.

From a 600CP noob points of view:

I prefer running stamina as I never favored mages in any games. However when i PvE a single target immovable boss my DPS is as follows:

~15k DPS when running stamina build (when using Corrosive Armor or Dragon Stand with MSA daggers)
Yea, I know I''ve seen people doing over 40k DPS but I am talking from the casual player's point of view.

~25k DPS when running magicka build (or more depending on applied debuffs without applying any ults with MSA sharpened inferno staff)

Once again, I am not that good at DPS-ing, but I try to apply the rotations. In addition, with magicka build, almost all my my abilities in rotation are DoT so I need no sustain to have them applied indefinitely.

So yea, Stamina DPS-ing either needs some sustain buffs, or better yet it needs to provide some kind of utility.

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

I never said its a huge nerf but its one. And its toraly not called for.

Stamina isn't worth to take into trials, DW is far outclassed by other weapons for stamina in pvp and with the buffs to staffs also less desireable for magicka chars in both pve and pvp.

So I just don't see a single reason for this change.

To lessen the raw stat imbalance between Dual Wield and Bows/2 Handers? That's pretty obvious to see if you compare Dual Wield to any other stamina based weapon from a DPS perspective, Dual Wield has a complete advantage over the rest and raw stats play a pretty big role. Not saying I agree with the nerf, just saying that it's pretty obvious to see what ZoS is trying to do.

Did you even read my comment?

The only place where dw is actually in no way outclassed is for stam dps in pve.
And even that is outclassed by magicka.

The raw stat increase and the extra set bonus is the only thing dw has actually going for it. In pvp other weapons have far better passives and skills.

So no its definitely not a logical step if you think about it for 1min. And thats something I can expect from zos for sure.

xblackroxe wrote: »

Gilliamtherogue wrote: »

xblackroxe wrote: »

I never said its a huge nerf but its one. And its toraly not called for.

Stamina isn't worth to take into trials, DW is far outclassed by other weapons for stamina in pvp and with the buffs to staffs also less desireable for magicka chars in both pve and pvp.

So I just don't see a single reason for this change.

To lessen the raw stat imbalance between Dual Wield and Bows/2 Handers? That's pretty obvious to see if you compare Dual Wield to any other stamina based weapon from a DPS perspective, Dual Wield has a complete advantage over the rest and raw stats play a pretty big role. Not saying I agree with the nerf, just saying that it's pretty obvious to see what ZoS is trying to do.

Did you even read my comment?

The only place where dw is actually in no way outclassed is for stam dps in pve.
And even that is outclassed by magicka.

The raw stat increase and the extra set bonus is the only thing dw has actually going for it. In pvp other weapons have far better passives and skills.

So no its definitely not a logical step if you think about it for 1min. And thats something I can expect from zos for sure.

Since you're struggling to read, I'll recopy and bolden.
"Not saying I agree with the nerf, just saying that it's pretty obvious to see what ZoS is trying to do."
There's a difference from attempting and succeeding. ZoS *attempted* to bring DW and 2h+bow more in line, but will not *succeed*. You said you didn't see a reason, which the reason is clear. It's just that their attempted route to attain that reason will fail.

Maybe ZoS should start enforcing some reading comprehension lessons before you can post on the forums.

Ag

Alcast wrote: »

Hello, now in this thread I want to explain why Magicka is superior to Stamina Builds in Trial environments. I want to show you why it is basically pointless to bring Stamina setups into a Trial.

Now there is changes that affect all builds, like the aggressive warhorn or nerf. However, we all know stamina setups are built upon crit chance and increased critical damage taken.


Stamina Builds used to have a higher single target dps and that is mostly WHY we brought them into trials. However, nowadays Magicka basically gets the same Single Target dps as Stamina setups, also magicka has like 2x the AoE damage output. So why bother bringing stamina setups? There is even magicka builds that basically get the same single target dps from RANGED whereas a Stamina build has to stay melee to actually to any decent dmg at all.

Now ZOS keeps nerfing Stamina setups:
-MSA Nerf last patch (which I agree with, because Stam Setups are relying too much on those, but its only way to stay competitive)
-Aggressive Warhorn nerf
-Rearming Trap nerf (Dmg and inc crit dmg)
-Less Gearchoices viable due to inc crit modifier change
-Bow damage got slightly buffed


So why again does stamina underperform in trials?
No fake health (Harness Magicka, it is so much easier to stay alive on a magicka setup)
Much lower AoE dps compared to magicka setups (Destro Ulti for Magicka setups op) 70-80% in Trials we are fighting Trash
Approx. same Single Target DPS as Magicka setups.

Maelstrom Weapons
The only reason Stamina builds come even close to good Single target DPS is due to Malestrom Weapons, which I also think is not good. Basically you need those weapons to achieve good dps on most setups. Without MSA Weapons Stamina Builds prolly could not even f... Roleplay mkay.


Take Away MSA weapons and Proc sets and stamina would both suck in PvE and PvP. So stamina builds dmg is artifically increased through MSA waeps(PvE) or Proc sets (PvP). Take away those two things and you will most likely end up with garbage.

Magicka is in any way superior and its just pointless to bring stamina setups into competitive Trial groups.

How to fix this? A lot of suggestions have been made over the past few months. I am not gonna list up any again bc it does not matter anyway, hence why am I even writing this lol?

Devs have nerfed stamina so much that none of my end-game trial guilds want to take any stamina characters into trials. Magicka characters pull slightly less DPS, but have way more survivability due to proper shields (harness).

Basically for me it's either start playing Magicka, or quit the game... Now I don't mind playing Magicka, but as someone who's 'mained' a stam character, it'll take ages to get used to playing Magicka properly.. They advocate build diversity, yet push us into a meta every time a patch drops..

J'skaar Habasi wrote: »

Might as well call this game Elder Staves Online.

Then we'll have come full circle. This game once was called that already.

Lol ZO$ wont do anything sadly. Try convicing people to stop buying from the crown store / dlc's and you will have their attention. IF a company is losing money they will obviously start rethinking *** and improving, but if that cash flow keep coming then why change anything?

The fix here is rather easy... come to think of it.

• Buff the Critical rating from Twin Blade and Blunt dagger passive
• Buff the Cleave damage and/or the shield from Brawler
• Buff the Critical rating from Accuracy Bow passive

And I'm not a real advocate for buffs.
In fact, most of my balancing suggestions usually revolve around nerfs.

Nifty2g wrote: »

give them a shield. oh wait cant do that lol pvp lol

banned from using shields

Here's how you fix bone shield. Make it scale off stamina. Make it de-activate major evasion for its duration.

Problem solved.

I will be getting so much hate for posting what is below . Well , whatever .

Reading this thread makes me sad really . PvP players coming here , speaking nonsense and trying to prevent buffs to Stamina . Really sad . Saying that Soul Assault is the best single target ultimate in a PvE thread . Yeah ...

I want to talk about Bone Shield . When ZOS tried to make Bone Shield scale with Stamina , people cried so much , they had to take it back . No one , literally , no one ever bothered to actually see how useless it was . It was costing crapton (still does) and was giving 3k shield on a 30k Stamina character . 3k . I went on PTS and tested it myself . This would be 7-8k in PvE which is again not as useful as magicka shields but still would help solving the survivability problem of Stamina DDs .

Now , I want to ask those PvP ''heroes'' , 3k shield that costs more than 3k Stamina , why did it hurt you so bad ? This disgusting , crap community knows nothing , always cries for nerfs and because ZOS has to listen to community , stuff like this happens . Look at where Stamina Templar is right now . Look at where all Stamina DDs right now . This is what this ''player''base caused . They are literally useless when you can get a Magicka DD instead . Next patch , at least from what we have , it will be even worse .

Stamina builds were perma rolling . PvP players cried . Stamina builds nerfed .

Stamina builds had a ''shield'' for 1 patch of PTS . PvP players cried . ZOS revert it .

Stamina builds had proc sets . PvP players cried . ZOS nerfed them .

Stamina builds got nerfed so much over the years , they became useless in PvE . They were top choice for 2 patches because of high DPS . Did it worth it ? No . People realized that Magicka is actually more powerful because of being able to play range and have more survivability and everyone started completing vMoL HM with Magicka DDs . It was only a rush of wanting to play the highest DPS . Magicka was always superior . People just realized it later . Do you really think vMoL HM was not possible back in the day ? We can nuke it now . I am sure it was possible . But with 8 Stamina DDs , it couldn't be done .

And these Magicka players who think they are not strong . Will you please , at least not post videos of killing 20 people by yourself ? Make what you say believable at least . I admit , they are really good players but don't be selfish . In a thread , asking for buffs ; in another thread posting videos of killing 20 people by himself/herself . I do not blame ZOS . I blame this crap community . I can't believe that people still think proc sets are the real issue . Just take a look at every PTS patch notes thread in this games history . Crying over and over again . Without testing . Just crying . People actually thought Minor Magickasteal would stack and Templars would be able to perma block with frost staff . Are you serious ? These people are the real issue . There is a huge community that tries to prevent buffs to certain classes/builds and cry for buffs to their own classes/builds . It is really annoying . ZOS shouldn't listen to any of this bullcrap and they should just do what they think is better . Yes , I actually prefer Wrobel's decisions instead of this community's .

One more thing to say . I am kindly asking . If you think you are not a PvE player that has actual experience , please , don't write in this thread with your useless opinions . You are not helping .

Give Stamina players a nice AOE DOT that they can actually do AOE damage with , not like small-ass Endless Hail . Something like Elemental Blockade .

Make stamina players viable in ranged combat . You buffed Bow damage by 10% . Surprise ZOS . It still sucks .

I don't know if you noticed , I don't ask for mitigation . Playing melee as a Stamina DD should be risky in my opinion . But now , especially on next patch , it doesn't worth it at all . If I can do same DPS with a Magicka character , having shields and being able to play ranged ; why would I risk my life playing Stamina and destroy score runs ? I hope ZOS addresses this issue . I am waiting for real balance for PvE in the next week's patch notes .

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

mr_wazzabi wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

give them a shield. oh wait cant do that lol pvp lol

banned from using shields

Here's how you fix bone shield. Make it scale off stamina. Make it de-activate major evasion for its duration.

Problem solved.

Please no. Shields are already a terrible design (aren't critable but have zero defence... wtf is that). I don't want them on stamina chars, it would be super broken to run around with 50k stamina as Redguard and being able to stack crazy amounts of shields.

See the thing is, shields are alright for PVE, it's kind of the only way to account for the high damage this game has taken and how they use high damage for a source of difficulty.
Without a shield you are almost useless in PVE, which is heavily affected on stamina players, so this is a result of PVE and PVP not making a mix, because its highly op in 1 scenario and highly needed for the other, you need to make a sacrifice.

Which is mainly where the problem lies I think. There is a thing of risk/reward and I agree compeltely, but please don't try and tell me the risk is not running a shield because the damage is so *** out of hand in PVE if you dont use a shield you're useless. So the risk/reward is that playing a stamina you wont get to be in competitive raids, and the rewards is on the off chance your leader is an idiot and might invite you, and you might get very lucky and no bad RNG combo line ups to instantly kill you.

Do we really have to balance PVE like this? I mean really

My honest opinion? Give stamina a shield and then make adjustments for PVP, this shouldnt be such a balance issue to the point it makes something useless in the other half of the game. A shield is not a risk/reward gameplay, it's turned into a necessity