Balance direction in Update 13

mewcatus · January 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Just going to leave this here...

Lets clean up the options in this poll and just show people who are satisfied with the changes vs. people who are not.

wow. Note that a lot of the "satisfied" votes are people who don't care about balance but just want housing. If we remove them, the numbers change to 65% unsatisfied and 27% satisfied. That's like congress approval ratings level of satisfaction.

Remember how polls worked out for the Elections and Brexit ? After all that fiasco, I might as well trust a crystal eight ball. Besides, it is obvious the patch is an across the board dps nerf. To be overwhelmingly negative is obvious to the most. Especially those who do not understand either the concept of Stats inflation or power creeping. If you need case studies, take a good look at Diablo 3.

nordsavage · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

All I read was coddle poor performing and casuals, punish talented players.

Kalante · January 2017

So instead of getting hit by a 5k viper stings i am now going to get hit by 3k ones, oh boy how exciting! Which means if i get hit by multiple procs that would still be around 4k to 5k free damage. If i get hit by a 3k potato surprise attack with procs, that person will still hit for around 7k damage to 8k damage as if he/she was on the level of an experienced player that actually knows how to play the game and animation cancel. It is so obvious zos wants to appease to the noobs because they know that the crit damage change will barely do anything on pvp and they will continue to have their bad player base happy. Disgusting.

kevlarto_ESO · January 2017

In theory it sounds good, but always seems like things never work out that way, I am all for more people enjoying the game, when ever I feel like I have worked for something in a video game time to find a new game, I play for fun and earn things as I go, part of the fun is figuring out a rotation, and when it changes a new challenge to find a new one, I have no issues with that, I play a game..

Didgerion · January 2017

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

Gamers who need things "simplified" shouldn't be playing games!

So because i'm an older gamer and slower... I shouldn't be playing games? That's a pretty narrow view don't you think?

Sorry Rich, I`m close to my 40s and I don`t feel any decline in my abilities that would be noticable on non high-end esports level and I`m pretty sure it will be same thing in 10 years. I mean you don`t make playing a guitar or piano artificially easier the older the user gets.

You pov is as narrow, and you know it. I don`t wan`t my or others age to be your argument, I feel it`s discriminating. Quite the opposite, I wish you would focus a bit more on bringing back the difficulty and skill rquirements of games back in the day.

Well you are wrong here mister @Mojomonkeyman .
First of all the eldernes does make you slower.
Second of all it is harder to master new skills when you are older.
And third of all the older you get the less time you have to play a game.
And of course there are exceptions to everything I said above.

Cheers!

SkylarkX · January 2017

mewcatus wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Just going to leave this here...

Lets clean up the options in this poll and just show people who are satisfied with the changes vs. people who are not.

wow. Note that a lot of the "satisfied" votes are people who don't care about balance but just want housing. If we remove them, the numbers change to 65% unsatisfied and 27% satisfied. That's like congress approval ratings level of satisfaction.

Remember how polls worked out for the Elections and Brexit ? After all that fiasco, I might as well trust a crystal eight ball. Besides, it is obvious the patch is an across the board dps nerf. To be overwhelmingly negative is obvious to the most. Especially those who do not understand either the concept of Stats inflation or power creeping. If you need case studies, take a good look at Diablo 3.

If you didn't like the fiasco around the mis-analysis of that data, imagine the fiasco that would be caused by analysis without data.

JinMori · January 2017

nordsavage wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

All I read was coddle poor performing and casuals, punish talented players.

That's basically what it is. it's a clever way to say that without making it sound like, well we wanna make the casuals feel special even tho they are bad at this game.... Just so you know, no one is special, not even those who are at the top 1%, those people are just people who put effort into the game, and got rewarded by doing that, with this statement Zenimax you basically said that you wanna remove this aspect of the game, do that and i will not play the game ever again. also how is removing stun from templar spear simplifying the rotation??

mewcatus · January 2017

SkylarkX wrote: »

mewcatus wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Just going to leave this here...

Lets clean up the options in this poll and just show people who are satisfied with the changes vs. people who are not.

wow. Note that a lot of the "satisfied" votes are people who don't care about balance but just want housing. If we remove them, the numbers change to 65% unsatisfied and 27% satisfied. That's like congress approval ratings level of satisfaction.

Remember how polls worked out for the Elections and Brexit ? After all that fiasco, I might as well trust a crystal eight ball. Besides, it is obvious the patch is an across the board dps nerf. To be overwhelmingly negative is obvious to the most. Especially those who do not understand either the concept of Stats inflation or power creeping. If you need case studies, take a good look at Diablo 3.

If you didn't like the fiasco around the mis-analysis of that data, imagine the fiasco that would be caused by analysis without data.

I am sure not against data analysis, but you are taking polls merely from the VOCAL minority, the ones who even bother to post here. Remember the hard nerfs to Sorc Shields ? Everyone and their dog's mother was baying that the sky was falling. You all make Chicken Little look like a moderate.

mewcatus · January 2017

JinMori wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

All I read was coddle poor performing and casuals, punish talented players.

That's basically what it is. it's a clever way to say that without making it sound like, well we wanna make the casuals feel special even tho they are bad at this game.... Just so you know, no one is special, not even those who are at the top 1%, those people are just people who put effort into the game, and got rewarded by doing that, with this statement Zenimax you basically said that you wanna remove this aspect of the game, do that and i will not play the game ever again. also how is removing stun from templar spear simplifying the rotation??

Here's a food for though, if every casual left the game, the game dies. If only the hard core leaves the game, the game still moves on, with some casuals eventually becoming hard core. The cycle continues. If anything, they should just continually punish the hard core, and kick them all out, while putting new blood in. Old blood are resistant to change, dogmatic and just plain nasty.

JinMori · January 2017

mewcatus wrote: »

JinMori wrote: »

nordsavage wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

All I read was coddle poor performing and casuals, punish talented players.

That's basically what it is. it's a clever way to say that without making it sound like, well we wanna make the casuals feel special even tho they are bad at this game.... Just so you know, no one is special, not even those who are at the top 1%, those people are just people who put effort into the game, and got rewarded by doing that, with this statement Zenimax you basically said that you wanna remove this aspect of the game, do that and i will not play the game ever again. also how is removing stun from templar spear simplifying the rotation??

Here's a food for though, if every casual left the game, the game dies. If only the hard core leaves the game, the game still moves on, with some casuals eventually becoming hard core. The cycle continues. If anything, they should just continually punish the hard core, and kick them all out, while putting new blood in. Old blood are resistant to change, dogmatic and just plain nasty.

But if the game become too casual, then there won't be anything satisfying to do, and people will leave. Look, i'm not saying that the game shouldn't appeal to casuals too, but if you play better there should be more rewarding moments.
And also by your statement i take that you think that good players should be punished because they play better and archive more than bad players, you are exactly the kind of person that makes these bad changes possible so *** you for saying that people who put effort into something should be punished and they should leave. Just like in real life there should be better rewards for people who do a better job (equality of opportunity, not equality of outcome). You have every chance as i do to become a very good player, if you don't wanna do that, that's on you, but don't try to take the fun out of other people.
Lastly about the change discussion, i am all for chance as long as it's good, so stop making assumption about people. There might be some that are resistant to change without really knowing what they dislike, but there are also many other people who have critical thinking, and know when something is ***, look on this forum discussion, there are many people who pointed out the bad changes that zenimax has made.

S'yn · January 2017

I'm not sure who is in charge of this whole "class balance thing," but as most of the community can attest to... You're doing it wrong.

Word of advice, listen to your fan base or your revenue stream goes bye bye. At that point, it won't matter what your vision for the game was. Assign some staff to read the feedback forums and take them seriously. Asking the players for feedback while charging full speed ahead with your own vision for how you think things should go is a mistake. I think most people would rather wait for you to get it right than rush a project that overwhelmingly disappoints.

Mojmir · January 2017

This game is going the route of a union takeover.no matter how hard you work,the guy next is doing just as good without the effort.

OrphanHelgen · January 2017

I think they want to take focus off pve content so they are sure everyone are spending their time on the housing part. Thats why no new sets, buffs etc. They will earn so much money on the crown store.

Izaki · January 2017

RazorCaltrops wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Can we buff stam pve dps please? Its not that its really bad on pts right now, but it kinda is compared to magicka builds....

Yes please. Give stam proper tools for AOE and make them reliable without having to depend on vma weapons (while not ruining these to the ground)

This guy gets it

STEVIL · January 2017

Betheny wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

I just think its not needed...

Can you imagine the furor is you only had to click shuffle once every six seconds to avoid all damage

You overestimate how long shields hold up under pressure for a start...in a tough fight they're down quickly. It's a damage soak, not the impenetrable forcefield you're making it out to be. Also a light armour sorc is squishy, your medium armour stamina character has more natural damage mitigation you seem to be forgetting. Shields are the sorc's designated defense.

In a regular fight (where you're not being focused) longer shield length would help with rotations, and allow sorcs to properly lay down some damage as well as mitigate damage. It isn't like shields are instant cast, they have animations and delays that eat into that six seconds just from applying them.

And sorcs generally need to apply a few DOTs and delayed response damage (damage that goes off after a time), so half the battle is setting up the damage, which six second shields just don't allow.

Shields need to be 10 seconds long, not six seconds.

I'm the one overestimating how long shields last? i am the one saying they drop typically before duration ends hence not "desperate" needed to buff duration to 10 across the board.

I admit fully that if their shields had longer durations 10s 10m whatever and somehow lasted that long in combat then the sorc could do more.

but sorcs are not in "desperate" straits now due to shield length.
What you are describing now are just some "it would be better ifs" which is a far step removed from "desperate" need.

STEVIL · January 2017

Thornen wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Just going to leave this here...

Lets clean up the options in this poll and just show people who are satisfied with the changes vs. people who are not.

wow. Note that a lot of the "satisfied" votes are people who don't care about balance but just want housing. If we remove them, the numbers change to 65% unsatisfied and 27% satisfied. That's like congress approval ratings level of satisfaction.

The problem with this is Zos is colourblind, everything seems A Ok on their end....

Well they did just use red/green on that pie chart which hits right at common colorblind hues.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2017

EcruteakCity wrote: »

Stop incentivizing players to not work for things. Lowering the skill cap of the game is negative for the entire community. By not encouraging players to get better at the game content will only get increasingly difficult for them to complete. I understand that making a game more accessible from a marketing perspective is smart, however the new customers will not find a challenge when they reach end game. What does this approach imply for further trials or dungeons? Why punish players who have mastered their rotations or strategies around the current end game mechanics. In my opinion make the rewards for playing the game better more appealing to encourage the players who you believe need things simplified to actually get better. Sincerely someone who's had no challenge in this game for months.

Having two players with the same gear and level and wildly different DPS outputs due to the skill required to make DPS effective is negative for the entire community as well. It means less people do group content because the group content isn't populated by people who know what the crap their doing, both from vets tired of finding pugs and just grouping in guild and alienating new players who've figured out it needs to go faster.

So many hardcore or 'veteran' players are decrying these changes as dumbing the game down, and saying it has no challenge are the people who've allready done Shadows of the Hist Hardmode like 30 times and who've allready done the dance. In many cases as well, they allready clicked with the system so exploiting it wasn't that hard. It's not that they -care-, it's that they want to keep bragging. They want for their 'git gud' to still have weight.

To complain the game is dumbing down and that it isn't geting harder for your sake is selfish and entitled. This is for the betterment of the game and it needs it. Welcome to progress. Power creep needs culled, this Learning cliff needs filed down to a learning curve, and if the cliff is what you loved, consider that maybe a MMO truely isn't for you. Because it seems you focus more on you, than group needs or game needs.

Betheny · January 2017

STEVIL wrote: »

Betheny wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

I just think its not needed...

Can you imagine the furor is you only had to click shuffle once every six seconds to avoid all damage

You overestimate how long shields hold up under pressure for a start...in a tough fight they're down quickly. It's a damage soak, not the impenetrable forcefield you're making it out to be. Also a light armour sorc is squishy, your medium armour stamina character has more natural damage mitigation you seem to be forgetting. Shields are the sorc's designated defense.

In a regular fight (where you're not being focused) longer shield length would help with rotations, and allow sorcs to properly lay down some damage as well as mitigate damage. It isn't like shields are instant cast, they have animations and delays that eat into that six seconds just from applying them.

And sorcs generally need to apply a few DOTs and delayed response damage (damage that goes off after a time), so half the battle is setting up the damage, which six second shields just don't allow.

Shields need to be 10 seconds long, not six seconds.

they drop typically before duration ends

That's the only bit you got right, other than that you're not following.

In a tough fight, shield length isn't even a threat to anyone, as shields will drop. So buffing shield length won't be an issue.

In a normal fight where you can apply rotations (but still have to dodge roll and block your way around the incoming damage), shield length IS a problem, and it's here we need 10 second shields so sorcs can apply the DOTs and delayed damage skills they need to use before having to charge back to damage mitigation mode (reapplying shields) without getting to lay down some fast response skills as well.

Longer shield length - 10 seconds would be a good place - will help with this.

nordsavage · January 2017

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Proc Sets – This change falls directly into the “lower the ceiling” category for both PVP and PVE. We wanted to reduce the overall burst potential without dramatically lowering sustain. There have been a lot of comments on this change, specifically from the PVP side where sets not critting will not help because of the Impenetrable trait - Impen does not reduce the chance of being crit - it reduces the damage of the crit that hits you.

We know how Impen works. What you don't seem to understand is that nobody goes into PvP with using critical in mind. It is very much a stacked burst and base damage affair. Taking the crit off of these sets hurts PvE functionality and fun. They really only contributed 1-3% extra total from a parse on the critical hit unless pushed hard in a group trial setting which is justified. This was for the most part a pointless change.

STEVIL · January 2017

Zinaroth wrote: »

boundsy88 wrote: »

Curse change might go down in history as the worst and most unnecessary change ZOS has ever made.

That is a pretty wild statement and probably more a testiment to how long you have actually played the game.
Along with Fire Destruction staff buffs this is a DPS increase for Sorcs in PvE.
In PvP you will have to time your burst around it popping, just like you did before. Meaning Sorcs will not be able to burst every 4 seconds, but every 6 seconds. This is a nerf but not as bad as people make it seem. In regard to people just cleansing it (us templar in particular); we already do that now within the 4 seconds so this changes nothing.

So in short; a DPS increase for PvE sorcs (especially if using fire destruction staff) and an prolonged cooldown between bursts of 2 seconds given you timed your abilities perfect and never needed to reapply buffs (which is always the case anyway). So most likely this will not change a lot.

I can however understand why some would prefer the other morph, but people are making this a way bigger deal than it really is.

Greetings the neglected Stamplar class - yes we still exist!

i am with you there...
some want 6s shields taken to 10s cuz 6s gets in the way of offense... but some dont want two six second opportunities of one click for timed bursts since 3.5s is enough to do it with three different clicks in a 13s period?

i know there is a lot too it and i myself think the 12s is not the best option and it needs something more - like a DOT addition perhaps and likely cutting away the aoe so it fits nicely with one staff or the other or maybe a different take altogether.

Consider this:

Cascading Curses:
Strats a curse on the target that booms after 6s as it does now and again 6s later.
however, while the final curse power is what it is now, the curse actually builds second by second - 1/6 of its damage accumulating - and clicking the curse again while it builds causes it to boom immediately at whatever level it has and start the next curse's build (if the first one went off prematurely) or ends the curse (if the second one went of prematurely.)

So in circumstances where you can wait out the 12s double whammy - no problem.
In circumstances where you need quicker damage, trigger the booms when you want with a new click.

So you can have three click over 12s, 12 clicks over 12s whatever you want but the damage will be the same total regardless just delivered in different size burps.

There are tons of ways they can tweak the two-in-12 up by the end of PTS. They just need to see not the forum rants against the change but the actual playtest numbers.

remember, at this time last patch the outrage was over how sucky the staff ulti was and how the 2h ulti would end the world in a black hole or something. That had many many many many times more rage posts than curse has.

Sharee · January 2017

nordsavage wrote: »

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

[*] Lowering the ceiling on the top damage
[*] Raising the floor on the bottom damage
[*] Simplifying some of the more intense rotations to make them a bit easier for players of all skill levels

All I read was coddle poor performing and casuals, punish talented players.

If the poor performing casuals and the talented players are both affected equally by these changes, how exactly does this punish the latter?

CaliMade · January 2017

I really dont care if they make the game easier nor harder. Just lower the damage ceiling. I currently run a build with 23307 physical resist and 3126 crit resist..to my knowledge 3150 is crit resist cap(?). Yes im in light and have 22k health but those resistances are no joke. yet even with max crit resist i can be burst down against my control with no chance at counter play....i got ganked today and my death recap read off ; 4k ambush, 4k Viper sting, 6k velidreth, 9k incapacitating strike. keep in mind i have ALOT of crit resist. Removing crit from proc sets hurt PVE alot more that more than it helps pvp. Please just go through and adjust the problematic sets instead of blanket nerfing everything. the only proc sets causing trouble are Viper Sting, Velidreth and Treamorscale. Selene and Infernal Guardian are getting fixed so there not the problem. Zenimax please reconsider this change and find another way to nerf These sets.

An for the sake of all of your playerbase, PLEASE add cooldowns to snares and roots. This over everything tbh.

FloppyTouch · January 2017

Pls fix dragon blood and make it heal right not this low magic thing

Agalloch · January 2017

About the game getting easier....

Please don't transform ESO in Call Of Duty !

This is a MMO ..am I right? Don't transform it in an arcade game!

A MMO is all about progression...

Why nerf PVE?

Proc sets are an issue in PVP not PVE.

Older players must have an incentive to continue playing the game...if u nerf the whole game .....dark times will come to ESO ...

Balance = Nerf? ???

English is not my native language.

Imryll · January 2017

I think the point is that if you make it easier for the less-well equipped/experienced/talented to perform well, content can be tuned to be more challenging and more folks will be able to play together without anyone experiencing intense frustration. I'm not sure about all the specific changes (Velocious Curse!!!), but philosophically I think the direction in which ZOS wants to go is healthy for the game.

Derra · January 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

[*] There will still be people dying to one shots in PvP even if they don't crit because crit isn't an issue in PvP if you L2Impen.

Can we please stop this misinformation?

Crit is one of the best stats in pvp. Impen helps but even when you´re full decked out 3000+ impen someone built for critdmg will still hit you significantly harder with a crit compared to a noncrit.

So they hit you for 1k damage more. That 1k isn't what kills you. Its the fact that they can get 5 4k attacks off at nearly the same time before you can react. Nerfing crit on proc sets won't stop people crying about viper/velidreth/widowmaker and you know it.

Please do not post made up numbers. Post actual results of a build setup for critdmg hitting someone with high impen - and then proceed to evaluate how much dmg increase they got from critting.

Again you´re spreading misinformation by posting made up random numbers without a baseline to compare them to. 1k increase on a 2k basedmg ability? That´s still a 50% increase. Preddy damn good (yes i do follow the same route here - as it proves the point i´m making).

Edit: I will later post a screenshot.

ku5h · January 2017

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Can we please drop the ageism stuff? It's irrelevant to the game's balance as a whole, its divisive, and will cause an insular reaction in the dev team.

Well, to be fair, it was Rich who stated first that "simplifying stuff for older players" was a dirrect reason for changins some skills. So in his mind that is very relevant to balance the game, which in my mind is beyond rediculous.

Ragnaroek93 · January 2017

Dracane wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

So I suppose we can expect light armor buffs, so that it is more viable in pvp and actually makes up for the squishiness ?
Either way, armor types need adjustment, but others have explained this already.

You should better not try out medium armor if you think that you are squishy with a shield on a 50-60k max magicka build...
I know that you are a very, very good player and probably the best petsorc (or maybe even the best sorc) in the world but all I see from your posts is that you want your build to be buffed more and more and more. I've played all classes (mag and stam) on PTS and petsorc is one of the most broken builds that I have ever played so far. AoE is insane (destro ult + pets), you are extremely tanky because 50k+ max magicka boosts your shield into oblivion and you can now block with a frost staff on top that and you are very lethal in duels too. My medium armor nb is completely *** compared to that and so are many other (mag and stam) builds. I know that it can be frustrating to fight against heavy armor Redguards but it's the same on almost every medium armor build for example.
I don't believe that it is in your interest that petsorc becomes fotm (they are actually on the best way to become fotm) and that everyone starts playing one (I do actually hate when my class becomes fotm).

@Ragnaroek93

No, I know that medium armor suffers just the same. I also said, that they need to buff both.
Light armor relies on perfect shield up time, medium armor relies on mobility and staying evasive.

I don't say this for myself, as I can manage the squishiness fairly well. But this is only due to me being experienced totally focused on the gameplay. Many don't play this way and they stand no chance when they are on light armor, they get eaten up by everyone

And you're right, I want petsorc to stay niche, I always wanted it to be hard to play. And I know that frost staff will allow for completely broken builds.

Ah my bad, didn't saw that you want to buff medium armor as well. I don't think that medium and light needs a buff, just that heavy armor needs a nerf.
I see problems with petsorc on PTS because most people won't play without a second shield and hp food like you do. At the moment the PTS is filled with petsorcs and I have actually problems to take them down, because even bad players can survive very easily with froststaff, shieldstacking and a 50k+ magicka pool. I don't have any problems against them as soon as I come as petsorc as well sadly.

DPShiro · January 2017

I don't agree with this direction at all.

Even if you simplify some things for bad players, and if makes their DPS go from 10k to 12k, they will still be bad because most of them don't want to invest the actual time needed to improve. DPS and rotation is only a part of it, positioning, adapting to team etc are equally important for the team and to increase your own damage output.

What I mean is, even if the bad players get a few more K deeps, as long a set they stand in red, do stupid things and don't improve on all other fronts, they will still be bad.

Pinja · January 2017

Really though your going to lower the preformence on builds so that lame duck gamers can copy & use them on the same level, all so you can establish a base line... & you plan to release this live?
Ok.

I was going to write a post asking about Magickasteal & lifesteal but this explains it. Thanks -_-b