PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

evedgebah · January 2017

I have just finished another round of PTS Testing, specifically on Fire vs Shock Staff and our skills.

All tests were made with the same gear, traits, buffs, etc on the new and shiny target skeletons in the privacy of my home.

For Reflective Light and Radiant Oppression, the Illuminate passive was active for these numbers, as it was for Dark Flare, which was always empowered. Those buffs were NOT up for the other skills. These numbers are the critical hit value (because I wanted to test in gear, and I had an over 50% crit rating), not tooltip, and so I could compare with live later on. I also did not allocate any of the new CP yet, so these are 561 numbers. The important thing is not the number itself, but it's relative value compared to the others.

.	Reflective	Radiant	Sweeps	Blazing Sp	Ritual	D.Flare
DW	7261+3326	8895	4714	7687+1643	2796	24833
Fire	6603+3265	8798	4292	6998+1497	2545	24277
Shock 	7131+3024	8380	4632	7557+1616	2545	22760

For all skills, Dual Wield was more potent than using either staff. Fire Staff only helped Dark Flare and Radiant Oppression (unsurprising). All of our other main DPS class skills are AOE and are buffed by lightning staves with the exception of Ritual of Retribution, which is buffed by neither staff (is this a bug?).

Some_Guy · January 2017

Curragraigue wrote: »

The thread is to discuss PTS changes to Temps. None of the changes impact Stampler. The fact that they don't is a separate thread issue.

This is exactly the thread to discuss exactly this exact issue. This balance "improvement", or more precisely, the lack of improvement, is why so many are expressing their feelings.
Go troll in a different thread.

timidobserver · January 2017

evedgebah wrote: »
I have just finished another round of PTS Testing, specifically on Fire vs Shock Staff and our skills.

All tests were made with the same gear, traits, buffs, etc on the new and shiny target skeletons in the privacy of my home.

For Reflective Light and Radiant Oppression, the Illuminate passive was active for these numbers, as it was for Dark Flare, which was always empowered. Those buffs were NOT up for the other skills. These numbers are the critical hit value (because I wanted to test in gear, and I had an over 50% crit rating), not tooltip, and so I could compare with live later on. I also did not allocate any of the new CP yet, so these are 561 numbers. The important thing is not the number itself, but it's relative value compared to the others.
.	Reflective	Radiant	Sweeps	Blazing Sp	Ritual	D.Flare
DW	7261+3326	8895	4714	7687+1643	2796	24833
Fire	6603+3265	8798	4292	6998+1497	2545	24277
Shock 	7131+3024	8380	4632	7557+1616	2545	22760
For all skills, Dual Wield was more potent than using either staff. Fire Staff only helped Dark Flare and Radiant Oppression (unsurprising). All of our other main DPS class skills are AOE and are buffed by lightning staves with the exception of Ritual of Retribution, which is buffed by neither staff (is this a bug?).

I got similar results. I don't agree with the way that Reflective Light functions. The initial hit of reflective light is buffed by the lightning staff. The dot ticks are buffed by the fire staff. I think that it should be all or nothing. An ability should be buffed by either one staff or the other, but it shouldn't be half buffed by one and half buffed by the other.

DragonBound · January 2017

Can someone do me a favor and explain how it effects stamina templars? I was very interested in making one for pvp, but now I am worried.

Curragraigue · January 2017

Some_Guy wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

The thread is to discuss PTS changes to Temps. None of the changes impact Stampler. The fact that they don't is a separate thread issue.

This is exactly the thread to discuss exactly this exact issue. This balance "improvement", or more precisely, the lack of improvement, is why so many are expressing their feelings.
Go troll in a different thread.

Since your all having the same issue I'll just response to the issue rather than the individual post. I was responding to Alcast's post. He was saying everyone was only talking about Mag Temp. I was providing the reason why they were. The thread is for a discussion of the changes made to Temp skills on the PTS. My point was if Alcast feels there should have been buffs for Stamplers then he should make a thread about it.

SublimeSparo · January 2017

timidobserver wrote: »
evedgebah wrote: »
I have just finished another round of PTS Testing, specifically on Fire vs Shock Staff and our skills.

All tests were made with the same gear, traits, buffs, etc on the new and shiny target skeletons in the privacy of my home.

For Reflective Light and Radiant Oppression, the Illuminate passive was active for these numbers, as it was for Dark Flare, which was always empowered. Those buffs were NOT up for the other skills. These numbers are the critical hit value (because I wanted to test in gear, and I had an over 50% crit rating), not tooltip, and so I could compare with live later on. I also did not allocate any of the new CP yet, so these are 561 numbers. The important thing is not the number itself, but it's relative value compared to the others.
.	Reflective	Radiant	Sweeps	Blazing Sp	Ritual	D.Flare
DW	7261+3326	8895	4714	7687+1643	2796	24833
Fire	6603+3265	8798	4292	6998+1497	2545	24277
Shock 	7131+3024	8380	4632	7557+1616	2545	22760
For all skills, Dual Wield was more potent than using either staff. Fire Staff only helped Dark Flare and Radiant Oppression (unsurprising). All of our other main DPS class skills are AOE and are buffed by lightning staves with the exception of Ritual of Retribution, which is buffed by neither staff (is this a bug?).
I got similar results. I don't agree with the way that Reflective Light functions. The initial hit of reflective light is buffed by the lightning staff. The dot ticks are buffed by the fire staff. I think that it should be all or nothing. An ability should be buffed by either one staff or the other, but it shouldn't be half buffed by one and half buffed by the other.

I take it this mismatching effect will affect a multitude of skills on all classes that have both aoe and single target compenents. Awkward clunkiness yay

usmcjdking · January 2017

Curragraigue wrote: »

Some_Guy wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

The thread is to discuss PTS changes to Temps. None of the changes impact Stampler. The fact that they don't is a separate thread issue.

This is exactly the thread to discuss exactly this exact issue. This balance "improvement", or more precisely, the lack of improvement, is why so many are expressing their feelings.
Go troll in a different thread.

Since your all having the same issue I'll just response to the issue rather than the individual post. I was responding to Alcast's post. He was saying everyone was only talking about Mag Temp. I was providing the reason why they were. The thread is for a discussion of the changes made to Temp skills on the PTS. My point was if Alcast feels there should have been buffs for Stamplers then he should make a thread about it.

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Stamplar got - a PVE buff that may or may not prove to be useful in Backlash.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in trap damage.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Major Force. (No longer multiplicative with piercing spear)
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Minor Force.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in proc sets no longer critting. (Piercing spear no long works with them)
Stamplar got - a Dueling/Open World nerf in Engine Guardian

Stamplar is the following on live - The lowest PVE DPS and the least effective PVP spec. How does the worst class in teh game manage to receive a paltry buff and the most coumpounded nerfs? Because the developers have utilized zero of the available data on stamplar from PVE and PVP largely because there is none, largely because no one plays stamplar because, as initially stated, it is the lowest PVE DPS and least effective PVP spec.

Did I miss something?

tamrielwinner · January 2017

not enough experience with radiant destruction, but i have many, many thousands of hours in mmo pvp with many millions of rounds of combat logged and tested. a 21% damage nerf to anyone is a lot. maybe too much.

Joy_Division · January 2017

Paraflex wrote: »

Can we talk about Templars in heavy armor for PvP why is it I can sustain and be such a tanky person and we not get changes to Heavy Armor Skill Line

It's to easy for Templars to slap on 5 Heavy and have solid dps or healing in this game.

We should sacrifice dps or healing or sustain if we put on Heavy...make us wear light armor for best performance!

Heavy armor gives Templars such an advantage in every situation.

PvP setups

Tank setup 5 Black Rose 5 Reactive 2 Malubeth

Healer setup 5 transmutation 5 Kags/Seducer/Most things work with Monster sets

DPS setup 5 Kags 5VD/Rattlecage with Monster sets.

Why are Templars so good with any setup in Heavy Armor in any role? This isn't balance this is making Templars the dominant class for PvP.

@ZOS_GinaBruno
@ZOS_BrianWheeler

Please tone down Heavy Armor Templars specifically through Heavy Armor Passives we don't need Mag sustain in Heaven Armor or Wrath for more dps. Remove it....please 8)

As long as there are Call of Duty like insta-death NBs in Cyrodiil, I have zero sympathy form all the complaints about heavy armor "cancer" templars. None.

Tillalarrien · January 2017

What everyone is saying really: Changes to mag that are just wierd and non-existent stam changes..
List of possible solution from somoe that plays templars:

MAG temps:
-Restore Blazing spear stun or provide one for temps that is viable - lack on CC on class is astounding and you are removing last stun that was actually usefull (I am already using non-class skills like drain and reverb for cc)

-Return Damage to Radiant but DRASTICLY shorten its range. Problem with radiant is that its effective from half a world away and in 1vX or Group situation Ppl can spamm it from the safe place doing moderate damage and knowing that as soon as others get you in execute range Radiant is gonna do its job. Damage reduction WONT CHANGE this problem. On the other hand short radius will - Radiant can be interrupted and sole fact that you are close and vulrnable when casting it will make ppl use it smartly - noone will even think of spaming it on 100% hp if he can be interrupted and countered.

-Radiant Aura/ Total Dark: Aura change is really nice, Towards Dark i cant provide feedback since I never used the skill.

STAM temps:
Seems like stamplars were kinda left out of this update.
Im not playing stamplar for several reasons and pretty big ones. In any combat there are 5 stages:
buff - gapclose - cc - dps - execute.
Looking at the stamplar skills it will soon reveal to you that:
-temps are only class without major sorcery/brutality class buff (forcing u towards 2H)
-lack stamina gapcloser (forcing you towards 2H)
-Bad stamina (or now magikca) CC (forcing you towards 2H)
-No stamina class execute (forcing you towards (2H)

Meaning only viable way to play stamplar is with 4/5 skill on your bar being 2H skills - making this completly bland and unoriginal build with no variations or build thoery crafting possible - that is at the same time not even viable for additional reason - lack of phisical passives. DO NOT remove mag versions - just add phisical in there like you did for stamsorcs.

Active skill that noone is using and can become stamina morphs:
-Explosive Charge
-other morph of Dark Flare
-either morph of Blazing Spear (preferebly WITH stun for both classes)
-other morph of Vampires Bane
-optional: Radiant Glory (having options as magtemp is nice but lack of execute and forcing 2H on class is major turn-off)

Skills can do Disease Damage instead, going well with the theme of Dark/Evil Priest. Either way improvements need to be made. At this point stamplars are nonexistend in eso's endgame.

@ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel @ZOS_BrianWheeler

DragonBound · January 2017

Tillalarrien wrote: »

What everyone is saying really: Changes to mag that are just wierd and non-existent stam changes..
List of possible solution from somoe that plays MAG temps:

-Restore Blazing spear stun or provide one for temps that is viable - lack on CC on class is astounding and you are removing last stun that was actually usefull (I am already using non-class skills like drain and reverb for cc)

-Return Damage to Radiant but DRASTICLY shorten its range. Problem with radiant is that its effective from half a world away and in 1vX or Group situation Ppl can spamm it from the safe place doing moderate damage and knowing that as soon as others get you in execute range Radiant is gonna do its job. Damage reduction WONT CHANGE this problem. On the other hand short radius will - Radiant can be interrupted and sole fact that you are close and vulrnable when casting it will make ppl use it smartly - noone will even think of spaming it on 100% hp if he can be interrupted and countered.

-Radiant Aura/ Total Dark: Aura change is really nice, Towards Dark i cant provide feedback since I never used the skill.

STAM temps:
Seems like stamplars were kinda left out of this update. I dont play on for obvious reasons so turn to stamplar player for suggestion coming from more experience, but:
Im not playing stamplar for several reasons and pretty big ones. In any combat there are 5 stages:
buff - gapclose - cc - dps - execute
Looking at the stamplar skills it will soon reveal to you that:
-temps are only class without major sorcery/brutality class buff (forcing u towards 2H)
-lack stamina gapcloser (forcing you towards 2H)
-No good CC (forcing you towards 2H)
-No stamina class execute (forcing you towards (2H)

Meaning only viable way to play stamplar is with 4/5 skill on your bar being 2H skills - making this completly bland and unoriginal build with NO variations possible, that is at the same time not even viable for additional reason - lack of phisical passives. DO NOT remove mag versions - just add phisical in there like you did for stamsorcs.

Active skill that noone is using and can become stamina morphs:
-Explosive Charge
-other morph of Dark Flare
-either morph of Blazing Spear (preferebly WITH stun for both classes)
-other morph of Vampires Bane

optional: Radiant Glory (having options as magtemp is nice but lack of execute and forcing 2H on class is major turn-off)

Skills can do Disease Damage instead, going well with the theme of Dark/Evil Priest. Either way improvements need to be made. At this point stamplars are nonexistend in eso's endgame.

Ok I am confused how is being forced to go 2h any different then being forced to go dual wield? If anything 2h seems more fun to me then dual wield but everyone went dual wield/bow for stam builds because how much better they are then 2h.

DragonBound · January 2017

Ok clearly the stun nerf and other things effect stamina builds but this may be a stupid question but how does this effect tankish blazing shield builds?

maxjapank · January 2017

"Tillalarrien wrote: »

Active skill that noone is using and can become stamina morphs:
-Explosive Charge

Again, this is not true. Explosive Charge is being used. And not just by me. You have two gap closers that are available to Stam users. Why must you now give Stam Temps three gap closers and leave Magicka Templars with only one. What Stamplars want is to use duel wield so that Biting Jabs will hit harder. So focus on that. How can biting Jabs be better without being forced to DW?

makeumrage · January 2017

Cannot test as i am on console and dont want to buy the game twice. Maybe a free PTS version of the game should be given to console players who own a PC or Mac, but thats besides the point.

Templars have very few usuable stuns. Taking away the stun in blazing spear was a huge mistake. Its essential for overland PvP.

Also, nerfing radiants damage is a step in the wrong direction. Like stated earlier, its the range that needs work. It currently hits almost as far as gap closers. And has to be bashed or you have to break line of sight to cancel. Decrease the range not damage.

Give the poor Stamplars some love. None of us Magolars use that other dark flare morph and most of us dont use explosive charge either. Let them be stam morphs. Also, we can all agree repent is not enough for regen. In PvP more then PvE. Some passive needs to be adjusted allowing them to keep up in the fight.

Curragraigue · January 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Some_Guy wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

The thread is to discuss PTS changes to Temps. None of the changes impact Stampler. The fact that they don't is a separate thread issue.

This is exactly the thread to discuss exactly this exact issue. This balance "improvement", or more precisely, the lack of improvement, is why so many are expressing their feelings.
Go troll in a different thread.

Since your all having the same issue I'll just response to the issue rather than the individual post. I was responding to Alcast's post. He was saying everyone was only talking about Mag Temp. I was providing the reason why they were. The thread is for a discussion of the changes made to Temp skills on the PTS. My point was if Alcast feels there should have been buffs for Stamplers then he should make a thread about it.

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Stamplar got - a PVE buff that may or may not prove to be useful in Backlash.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in trap damage.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Major Force. (No longer multiplicative with piercing spear)
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Minor Force.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in proc sets no longer critting. (Piercing spear no long works with them)
Stamplar got - a Dueling/Open World nerf in Engine Guardian

Stamplar is the following on live - The lowest PVE DPS and the least effective PVP spec. How does the worst class in teh game manage to receive a paltry buff and the most coumpounded nerfs? Because the developers have utilized zero of the available data on stamplar from PVE and PVP largely because there is none, largely because no one plays stamplar because, as initially stated, it is the lowest PVE DPS and least effective PVP spec.

Did I miss something?

General changes not solely related to Temps except Backlash magicka cost skill that morphs to power of the light stam skill. Engine Guardian dwemer change effects both Mag and Stam Temps. While I agree it is annoying as I use it for my Stampler tank all the time it again isn't related to the Temp skills changes.

Alcast · January 2017

timidobserver wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Radiant Destruction, what is the problem? Range.
Sure damage is high, which is totally fine. But why am I able to execute people from almost 50 Meters away? That is what makes this skill so annoying ot fight against.

This is somewhat an older Video where I tried to showcase what the RANGE of this skill can cause.
The video here is only a showcase.
The 21% Damage nerf will NOT matter at all in PVP, but kind of "nerf" the templar in PvE.

And no, "blocking" is not an option, you are dead before you can block or LoS
https://youtu.be/8Q8v-oTHPio

So.....
Did we want a damage nerd? > No
Did we want a range nerf? > Yes

The only thing this post is going to accomplish is convincing them to either nerf the range in addition to the damage, or reduce the damage nerf by 1% and then nerf the range by 50%.

I would be fine with that. Tho I would like to see that they undo the damage nerf

Curragraigue wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

It is funny that when people talk about TEMPLARS all they think of is Magicka Templars. There used the be smth called "Stamina Templars" a long time ago......but I guess people have forgotten about that setup..

The only thing that bothers me on Magplar is the nerf to Radiant Destruction. Crippels magicka Templars for PvE and does change ZERO in PvP. Because we all know RANGE is the problem, not the damage.

The thread is to discuss PTS changes to Temps. None of the changes impact Stampler. The fact that they don't is a separate thread issue.

Wrong

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the Templar for Update 13. Please let us know how you feel about the changes we made to this class, if you ran into any bugs, and any other feedback you'd like to give.

usmcjdking · January 2017

Curragraigue wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Some_Guy wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

The thread is to discuss PTS changes to Temps. None of the changes impact Stampler. The fact that they don't is a separate thread issue.

This is exactly the thread to discuss exactly this exact issue. This balance "improvement", or more precisely, the lack of improvement, is why so many are expressing their feelings.
Go troll in a different thread.

Since your all having the same issue I'll just response to the issue rather than the individual post. I was responding to Alcast's post. He was saying everyone was only talking about Mag Temp. I was providing the reason why they were. The thread is for a discussion of the changes made to Temp skills on the PTS. My point was if Alcast feels there should have been buffs for Stamplers then he should make a thread about it.

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Stamplar got - a PVE buff that may or may not prove to be useful in Backlash.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in trap damage.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Major Force. (No longer multiplicative with piercing spear)
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Minor Force.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in proc sets no longer critting. (Piercing spear no long works with them)
Stamplar got - a Dueling/Open World nerf in Engine Guardian

Stamplar is the following on live - The lowest PVE DPS and the least effective PVP spec. How does the worst class in teh game manage to receive a paltry buff and the most coumpounded nerfs? Because the developers have utilized zero of the available data on stamplar from PVE and PVP largely because there is none, largely because no one plays stamplar because, as initially stated, it is the lowest PVE DPS and least effective PVP spec.

Did I miss something?

General changes not solely related to Temps except Backlash magicka cost skill that morphs to power of the light stam skill. Engine Guardian dwemer change effects both Mag and Stam Temps. While I agree it is annoying as I use it for my Stampler tank all the time it again isn't related to the Temp skills changes.

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Is coincidentally not named...

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Skill Changes

Curragraigue · January 2017

usmcjdking wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Some_Guy wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

The thread is to discuss PTS changes to Temps. None of the changes impact Stampler. The fact that they don't is a separate thread issue.

This is exactly the thread to discuss exactly this exact issue. This balance "improvement", or more precisely, the lack of improvement, is why so many are expressing their feelings.
Go troll in a different thread.

Since your all having the same issue I'll just response to the issue rather than the individual post. I was responding to Alcast's post. He was saying everyone was only talking about Mag Temp. I was providing the reason why they were. The thread is for a discussion of the changes made to Temp skills on the PTS. My point was if Alcast feels there should have been buffs for Stamplers then he should make a thread about it.

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Stamplar got - a PVE buff that may or may not prove to be useful in Backlash.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in trap damage.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Major Force. (No longer multiplicative with piercing spear)
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Minor Force.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in proc sets no longer critting. (Piercing spear no long works with them)
Stamplar got - a Dueling/Open World nerf in Engine Guardian

Stamplar is the following on live - The lowest PVE DPS and the least effective PVP spec. How does the worst class in teh game manage to receive a paltry buff and the most coumpounded nerfs? Because the developers have utilized zero of the available data on stamplar from PVE and PVP largely because there is none, largely because no one plays stamplar because, as initially stated, it is the lowest PVE DPS and least effective PVP spec.

Did I miss something?

General changes not solely related to Temps except Backlash magicka cost skill that morphs to power of the light stam skill. Engine Guardian dwemer change effects both Mag and Stam Temps. While I agree it is annoying as I use it for my Stampler tank all the time it again isn't related to the Temp skills changes.

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Is coincidentally not named...

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Skill Changes

Yep improvements so changes not lack of changes for Stamplers. Imo the changes to Temps are the changes to their skills. If you all want to talk about issues that are not related to the Temp skills it just floods the thread with other issues for the devs to read through.

Personally I think a separate thread dealing with the fact that Stamplers needed and did not receive love would be more effective than hiding the issue in this thread. But hey it is your complaint not mine since I don't currently have a problem with my Stampler when tanking or in PvP so have at it DPS Stamplers.

Faulgor · January 2017

Tillalarrien wrote: »

-temps are only class without major sorcery/brutality class buff (forcing u towards 2H)

Hah, I totally forgot about that. That was a huge point during the last balance changes on PTS. Apparently, it's supposed to make Templars "unique". Same reason why DKs and Templars have no mobility.

Of course DKs got Major Expedition since then, so there's that.

Doctordarkspawn · January 2017

VigilantLance wrote: »

I simply don't understand why this class keeps getting ignored and left behind. Does nobody at ZOS use this class? I cannot believe they would be so ignorant to its needs.

As it stands, Stamina Templars are largely left out of Veteran Trials. Look at Maelstrom leaderboard scores for crying out loud! Templars have typically the lowest scores overall.

Biting jabs needs a cost reduction. Reduce it by 30-45% to place it on par with other spammable abilities.

Restoring focus should become a stamina ability. Offer stamina regen similar to the current channeled focus.

The nerf to radiant destruction wouldnt be needed if the class had its jabs cost reduced and the threshold for radiant destruction execute lowered to be similar to all other executes in the game.

Fix this class. Many key players use this class as a stamina build and it's become the weakest class overall. I urge anyone at ZOS to look at this thread and realize that this class is severely underpowered and needs urgent help.

Jabs, meh. It'd be nice.

Restoring focus, NO. Absolutely not. Not unless it's going to increase both, and keep it's basic cost. ]

Honestly most of it's passives need looked at. It'd be -nice- for templar to have passives that give it actuall sustain like the others do.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · January 2017

evedgebah wrote: »
I have just finished another round of PTS Testing, specifically on Fire vs Shock Staff and our skills.

All tests were made with the same gear, traits, buffs, etc on the new and shiny target skeletons in the privacy of my home.

For Reflective Light and Radiant Oppression, the Illuminate passive was active for these numbers, as it was for Dark Flare, which was always empowered. Those buffs were NOT up for the other skills. These numbers are the critical hit value (because I wanted to test in gear, and I had an over 50% crit rating), not tooltip, and so I could compare with live later on. I also did not allocate any of the new CP yet, so these are 561 numbers. The important thing is not the number itself, but it's relative value compared to the others.
.	Reflective	Radiant	Sweeps	Blazing Sp	Ritual	D.Flare
DW	7261+3326	8895	4714	7687+1643	2796	24833
Fire	6603+3265	8798	4292	6998+1497	2545	24277
Shock 	7131+3024	8380	4632	7557+1616	2545	22760
For all skills, Dual Wield was more potent than using either staff. Fire Staff only helped Dark Flare and Radiant Oppression (unsurprising). All of our other main DPS class skills are AOE and are buffed by lightning staves with the exception of Ritual of Retribution, which is buffed by neither staff (is this a bug?).

This is the type of thing I came to this thread to see, need more stuff like this. I like the changes to the destro passives, make it more interesting, as the damage from dual wielding always out weighted the sustain and weaving from a destro staff, at least now the numbers are closer.

ellahellabella · January 2017

RD doesn't to be nerfed dmg wise but it does need to have it's range reduced
Radiant Aura I probably won't switch to because the stam from repentance I need more than the additional mana

But most of all...

Why take my blazing spear CC away? That's like the best thing about being a Mageplar! WHY?!

Why in a game where stamina trumps magicka are we mag uses losing so many good things?

Koensol · January 2017

Tillalarrien wrote: »

-temps are only class without major sorcery/brutality class buff (forcing u towards 2H)

On the other hand they are the only class that can apply both minor and major fracture+breach on a target. So they have that going for them. I stack the two all the time on mobs/boss when tanking.

Tillalarrien · January 2017

CosmicSoul wrote: »

Tillalarrien wrote: »

What everyone is saying really: Changes to mag that are just wierd and non-existent stam changes..
List of possible solution from somoe that plays MAG temps:

-Restore Blazing spear stun or provide one for temps that is viable - lack on CC on class is astounding and you are removing last stun that was actually usefull (I am already using non-class skills like drain and reverb for cc)

-Return Damage to Radiant but DRASTICLY shorten its range. Problem with radiant is that its effective from half a world away and in 1vX or Group situation Ppl can spamm it from the safe place doing moderate damage and knowing that as soon as others get you in execute range Radiant is gonna do its job. Damage reduction WONT CHANGE this problem. On the other hand short radius will - Radiant can be interrupted and sole fact that you are close and vulrnable when casting it will make ppl use it smartly - noone will even think of spaming it on 100% hp if he can be interrupted and countered.

-Radiant Aura/ Total Dark: Aura change is really nice, Towards Dark i cant provide feedback since I never used the skill.

STAM temps:
Seems like stamplars were kinda left out of this update. I dont play on for obvious reasons so turn to stamplar player for suggestion coming from more experience, but:
Im not playing stamplar for several reasons and pretty big ones. In any combat there are 5 stages:
buff - gapclose - cc - dps - execute
Looking at the stamplar skills it will soon reveal to you that:
-temps are only class without major sorcery/brutality class buff (forcing u towards 2H)
-lack stamina gapcloser (forcing you towards 2H)
-No good CC (forcing you towards 2H)
-No stamina class execute (forcing you towards (2H)

Meaning only viable way to play stamplar is with 4/5 skill on your bar being 2H skills - making this completly bland and unoriginal build with NO variations possible, that is at the same time not even viable for additional reason - lack of phisical passives. DO NOT remove mag versions - just add phisical in there like you did for stamsorcs.

Active skill that noone is using and can become stamina morphs:
-Explosive Charge
-other morph of Dark Flare
-either morph of Blazing Spear (preferebly WITH stun for both classes)
-other morph of Vampires Bane

optional: Radiant Glory (having options as magtemp is nice but lack of execute and forcing 2H on class is major turn-off)

Skills can do Disease Damage instead, going well with the theme of Dark/Evil Priest. Either way improvements need to be made. At this point stamplars are nonexistend in eso's endgame.

Ok I am confused how is being forced to go 2h any different then being forced to go dual wield? If anything 2h seems more fun to me then dual wield but everyone went dual wield/bow for stam builds because how much better they are then 2h.

Koensol wrote: »

Tillalarrien wrote: »

-temps are only class without major sorcery/brutality class buff (forcing u towards 2H)

On the other hand they are the only class that can apply both minor and major fracture+breach on a target. So they have that going for them. I stack the two all the time on mobs/boss when tanking.

Im argueing lack of damage buff is just one of several factors that end up making 2H a must-use weapon if you even want to get all aspects of standard build (buff,gapcloser,stun,spam,execute).

Im not saying stamplars must get every single one of them or even same buffs as other classes do, but having no other choice on 4/5 of those aspect then out-of-class 2h is very limiting to builds and consequently general viability of the class.

Cinbri · January 2017

After testing Templar changes for some time here is my feedback:
Radiant Aura - sadly only real buff this patch. However must admit zos did great job here coz finally both morphs of Aura became viable. With change of Radiant Aura in addition to frost tanking, problems of templar's sustain finally shifted to better side, skill diversity with this change is increased incredibly. Morph literally apply aoe Drain that equal in battle to 800 mana regen. I already planning to switch to this morph over Repentance.
However I need confirmation if side effect of revealing upon applying debuff is intended or not:

Also I see one weakness with it: magickasteal debuff is not visible on enemies and without tracking addons it is impossible to determine if it works. Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit both easily visible and ally see it debuff still on enemy, Blood Altar have large visual circle to show area od effect. However Radiant Aura don't have any visual effect and if it will be applied by templar noone will see any sign of it. I suggest to add visual effect upon proc of debuff: a. either blue flash proc like warlock/lich sets. b. small visual effect that will be removed in U13: essence flowing upon proc of Siphon Spirit.

Honor the Dead - sadlt fount that it still have no visual effect of mana return

Also fount that this bug with mana returns still wasnt fixed.
Backlash - buff wont make skill any viable in pvp. Mechanic of storing damage should be removed and skill must deal damage after expiring without storing as there is no way to achieve cap stored damage in pvp. Removing storing wont change anything for PvE, so...
Also storing mechanic still have 2 bugs from live: 1. It ignore Battle Spirit. 2. damage shields bugging storing mechanic.
Radiant Destruction - decreasing damage is hurting, however we can live on with it. The negative change is that Radiant Glory seriously affected by it and healing is now too small, making this morph no longer viable. It should get small healing buff.
Healing Ritual - now paradise for healbots, and sadly I don't see it as good change, except that skill finally became viable. Probably answer on requests to make BoL as cast time ability: now it AoE BoL with 1.5sec cast time that also completely ignore LoS - will be exploited by healbtos through walls and doors. Also due to mcurrenta mechanic described below in paragraph 2 it will perfectly synnergize with bomb groups.
It has 2 bugs:

1. Hasty Prayer morph still have visual effect, buff, and sound effect of old mechanic when it applied healing tick after some time. Since it no longer doing it - must be removed to not misleading people. 2. Either intended mechanic or bug - sometimes skill ignore healing treatment in PvP: healing allies removing Major Gallop buff, however healing allies with Hasty Prayer doesn't remove speed buff, i.e. templar can run with bomb group while affected by speed buff, spam Hasty without suffering from removal of it.

Blazing Spear - it is understandable desire to tone down too strong skill (lets be honest it was too strong) to increase diversity: Blazing for PvE and damage, Luminous for PvP and functionality. However it will create situations when Templar will loose CC capability entirely in current state:
1. Luminous morph is not working.
2. Eclipse got nerfed and became even less viable CC.
3. Javeling is too weak and expenisve. Compare it to DK stone Fist skill: one morph of it either apply huge AoE burst healing, 2nd is playing as CC-execute skill that deal 2x more damage to CCed enemy. Now compare it Javeling morphs...
1. Not a single smart PvPer will choose Luminous over Blazing because of new mechanic: Disorient from Luminous was added to be able to compete with perma-blocking builds, however later changes made it breakable on damage, and since Luminous can't store damage before break like DK Fossilize - it breaking immideately, creating *** situation where if you want to use it against permablockers and just to CC enemy, you just granting him CC Immunity for free and thus this morph simply dead. To show how *** it looking as example: I fighting enemy 1v1 with applying dots on him and wana CC him to drain stamina, it will end so:

Even in 1v1 enemy instead of getting CCed and forced to break free will be CCed for 0.01 milisecond and immideately will get CC immunity FOR FREE.

Ways to fix it:
a. make Desorient of this skill to store damage like Fossilize.
b. remove Disorient but in return make this skill that you obviously wanna make PvP skill to be unblockable, since blocking AoE affecting only PvP. In addition fix Eclipse to grant viable CC.
2. Eclipse and Total Dark not just wasn't buffed by current change but also got nerf, pushing this already dead skill into greave further.

It used to be unique class single target CC, like Rune Prison of sorc or Fossilize of DK, but now it is dead. Here is arguments:
a. Majority of enemies in Cyro are not affected by this change:

a. Stamina Sorc melee attacks won't be reflected. b. Magicka Sorc was affected by it but now will mostly be unaffected by it too thx to new nerf. c. Magicka Dragonknight is melee/aoe spells that immune to reflect. Scales no longer can be disabled by bubble. d. Stamina Dragonknight is melee/dot skills that immune to reflect. e. Stamina NB is melee skills that immune to reflect. f. Magicka NB was affected by nerf to Strife may force them to choose over Destro-staff ability, and thus will be immune. g. Magicka Templar melee skills and can simply purge and thus unaffected by skill. h. Stamina Templar melee skills and can purge and thus unnafected by skill i. Bow skilline only most dangerous skill is Snipe, but Snipe has larger distance of cast than Eclipse, and thus buble simply can't counter it in fair state. j. Bosses and large adds in PvE immune to ability. ^^And despite it's uselessness Eclipse was nerfed even further - beams no longer can be reflected, i.e. Eclipse lost ability to reflect destro-stafff spammable dps ability. This is side change to counter Scales, however it affecting also Eclipse.

I sad that noone noticed how it will end with new meta. Let me recap: 6 from 8 builds already fully immune to skill, while only 2 builds could be affected. And now Strife was nerfed(good thing I believe tho): this will make Crushing Shock ability tempting to use for magicka NB; magicka Sorc's main dps ability is Crushing Shock, while their hard-hitting abilities already mostly ignore reflect coz it no longer can intercept and reflect back projectiles that already launched

. With changes to beam those 2 last builds will be stoped being affected by Eclipse...
It is good that skill lost target cap but when skill doesn't work against anyone it has no point if you can cast it on 1 enemy or 50.
My suggestion that i see as only way to fix it is also related to Unstable Core morph:
Unstable Core - this morph have a huge problem as it still affected by Enduring Rays passive, making it duration from 5 sec to 6.5, that is literally 25% dps nerf. This unacceptable, morph must be removed from being affected by passive.
So, back to fixing Eclipse, it must get 2 treatments -
1. It must gain back ability to reflect all melee and range attacks no matter if they are stamina or magicka.
2. It must be returned to 1 target cap.

1. Firstly it should start working against enemies. As i showed above it might completely stop working against everyone. 2. If skill will become usefull(1st treatment), with current uncapped it will be came too strong in compare to other morph Unstable Core: why would you use UC if you can use Total Dark on everyone and not just apply time bomb but also reflect things. So, to fix terrible situation when class left without any CC - just make Eclipse to what it was. I still rember time when used Total Dark instead of Spear Shards because of how good it was. It is just that simple.
___________________________________________________________________
@Wrobel don't leave it as it is.

Reverb · January 2017

The most frustrating thing about this thread, is that it won't make one bit of difference. We've seen this in the class feedback threads in the past. By the time these changes make it to PTS, Zeni has already decided it's the direction they are going in, and no amount of feedback will change their minds.

I'm so confident about this that I'll make the following wager: If Zeni returns the stun to Blazing Spear, based on the overwhelmingly negative feedback on removing the only viable Templar class cc, I will buy $250 worth of crowns, immediately.

templesus · January 2017

Curragraigue wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

usmcjdking wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

Some_Guy wrote: »

Curragraigue wrote: »

The thread is to discuss PTS changes to Temps. None of the changes impact Stampler. The fact that they don't is a separate thread issue.

This is exactly the thread to discuss exactly this exact issue. This balance "improvement", or more precisely, the lack of improvement, is why so many are expressing their feelings.
Go troll in a different thread.

Since your all having the same issue I'll just response to the issue rather than the individual post. I was responding to Alcast's post. He was saying everyone was only talking about Mag Temp. I was providing the reason why they were. The thread is for a discussion of the changes made to Temp skills on the PTS. My point was if Alcast feels there should have been buffs for Stamplers then he should make a thread about it.

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Stamplar got - a PVE buff that may or may not prove to be useful in Backlash.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in trap damage.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Major Force. (No longer multiplicative with piercing spear)
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in Minor Force.
Stamplar got - a PVE nerf in proc sets no longer critting. (Piercing spear no long works with them)
Stamplar got - a Dueling/Open World nerf in Engine Guardian

Stamplar is the following on live - The lowest PVE DPS and the least effective PVP spec. How does the worst class in teh game manage to receive a paltry buff and the most coumpounded nerfs? Because the developers have utilized zero of the available data on stamplar from PVE and PVP largely because there is none, largely because no one plays stamplar because, as initially stated, it is the lowest PVE DPS and least effective PVP spec.

Did I miss something?

General changes not solely related to Temps except Backlash magicka cost skill that morphs to power of the light stam skill. Engine Guardian dwemer change effects both Mag and Stam Temps. While I agree it is annoying as I use it for my Stampler tank all the time it again isn't related to the Temp skills changes.

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Balance Improvements

Is coincidentally not named...

PTS Feedback Thread for Templar Skill Changes

Yep improvements so changes not lack of changes for Stamplers. Imo the changes to Temps are the changes to their skills. If you all want to talk about issues that are not related to the Temp skills it just floods the thread with other issues for the devs to read through.

Personally I think a separate thread dealing with the fact that Stamplers needed and did not receive love would be more effective than hiding the issue in this thread. But hey it is your complaint not mine since I don't currently have a problem with my Stampler when tanking or in PvP so have at it DPS Stamplers.

What you think personally is of no importance to anyone. You alreasy lost all credibility the minute you selfishly tried to make this post about magplars only. This thread is for ALL balance feedback related to Templar mag and stam. If you can't deal with that then go cry me a river, build a bridge, and get over it.

technohic · January 2017

Cinbri wrote: »

After testing Templar changes for some time here is my feedback:
Radiant Aura - sadly only real buff this patch. However must admit zos did great job here coz finally both morphs of Aura became viable. With change of Radiant Aura in addition to frost tanking, problems of templar's sustain finally shifted to better side, skill diversity with this change is increased incredibly. Morph literally apply aoe Drain that equal in battle to 800 mana regen. I already planning to switch to this morph over Repentance.
However I need confirmation if side effect of revealing upon applying debuff is intended or not:
Also I see one weakness with it: magickasteal debuff is not visible on enemies and without tracking addons it is impossible to determine if it works. Elemental Drain and Siphon Spirit both easily visible and ally see it debuff still on enemy, Blood Altar have large visual circle to show area od effect. However Radiant Aura don't have any visual effect and if it will be applied by templar noone will see any sign of it. I suggest to add visual effect upon proc of debuff: a. either blue flash proc like warlock/lich sets. b. small visual effect that will be removed in U13: essence flowing upon proc of Siphon Spirit.
Honor the Dead - sadlt fount that it still have no visual effect of mana return Also fount that this bug with mana returns still wasnt fixed.
Backlash - buff wont make skill any viable in pvp. Mechanic of storing damage should be removed and skill must deal damage after expiring without storing as there is no way to achieve cap stored damage in pvp. Removing storing wont change anything for PvE, so...
Also storing mechanic still have 2 bugs from live: 1. It ignore Battle Spirit. 2. damage shields bugging storing mechanic.
Radiant Destruction - decreasing damage is hurting, however we can live on with it. The negative change is that Radiant Glory seriously affected by it and healing is now too small, making this morph no longer viable. It should get small healing buff.
Healing Ritual - now paradise for healbots, and sadly I don't see it as good change, except that skill finally became viable. Probably answer on requests to make BoL as cast time ability: now it AoE BoL with 1.5sec cast time that also completely ignore LoS - will be exploited by healbtos through walls and doors. Also due to mcurrenta mechanic described below in paragraph 2 it will perfectly synnergize with bomb groups.
It has 2 bugs:
1. Hasty Prayer morph still have visual effect, buff, and sound effect of old mechanic when it applied healing tick after some time. Since it no longer doing it - must be removed to not misleading people. 2. Either intended mechanic or bug - sometimes skill ignore healing treatment in PvP: healing allies removing Major Gallop buff, however healing allies with Hasty Prayer doesn't remove speed buff, i.e. templar can run with bomb group while affected by speed buff, spam Hasty without suffering from removal of it.

Blazing Spear - it is understandable desire to tone down too strong skill (lets be honest it was too strong) to increase diversity: Blazing for PvE and damage, Luminous for PvP and functionality. However it will create situations when Templar will loose CC capability entirely in current state:
1. Luminous morph is not working.
2. Eclipse got nerfed and became even less viable CC.
3. Javeling is too weak and expenisve. Compare it to DK stone Fist skill: one morph of it either apply huge AoE burst healing, 2nd is playing as CC-execute skill that deal 2x more damage to CCed enemy. Now compare it Javeling morphs...
1. Not a single smart PvPer will choose Luminous over Blazing because of new mechanic: Disorient from Luminous was added to be able to compete with perma-blocking builds, however later changes made it breakable on damage, and since Luminous can't store damage before break like DK Fossilize - it breaking immideately, creating *** situation where if you want to use it against permablockers and just to CC enemy, you just granting him CC Immunity for free and thus this morph simply dead. To show how *** it looking as example: I fighting enemy 1v1 with applying dots on him and wana CC him to drain stamina, it will end so:

Even in 1v1 enemy instead of getting CCed and forced to break free will be CCed for 0.01 milisecond and immideately will get CC immunity FOR FREE.
Ways to fix it:
a. make Desorient of this skill to store damage like Fossilize.
b. remove Disorient but in return make this skill that you obviously wanna make PvP skill to be unblockable, since blocking AoE affecting only PvP. In addition fix Eclipse to grant viable CC.
2. Eclipse and Total Dark not just wasn't buffed by current change but also got nerf, pushing this already dead skill into greave further. It used to be unique class single target CC, like Rune Prison of sorc or Fossilize of DK, but now it is dead. Here is arguments:
a. Majority of enemies in Cyro are not affected by this change:
a. Stamina Sorc melee attacks won't be reflected. b. Magicka Sorc was affected by it but now will mostly be unaffected by it too thx to new nerf. c. Magicka Dragonknight is melee/aoe spells that immune to reflect. Scales no longer can be disabled by bubble. d. Stamina Dragonknight is melee/dot skills that immune to reflect. e. Stamina NB is melee skills that immune to reflect. f. Magicka NB was affected by nerf to Strife may force them to choose over Destro-staff ability, and thus will be immune. g. Magicka Templar melee skills and can simply purge and thus unaffected by skill. h. Stamina Templar melee skills and can purge and thus unnafected by skill i. Bow skilline only most dangerous skill is Snipe, but Snipe has larger distance of cast than Eclipse, and thus buble simply can't counter it in fair state. j. Bosses and large adds in PvE immune to ability.
^^And despite it's uselessness Eclipse was nerfed even further - beams no longer can be reflected, i.e. Eclipse lost ability to reflect destro-stafff spammable dps ability. This is side change to counter Scales, however it affecting also Eclipse.
I sad that noone noticed how it will end with new meta. Let me recap: 6 from 8 builds already fully immune to skill, while only 2 builds could be affected. And now Strife was nerfed(good thing I believe tho): this will make Crushing Shock ability tempting to use for magicka NB; magicka Sorc's main dps ability is Crushing Shock, while their hard-hitting abilities already mostly ignore reflect coz it no longer can intercept and reflect back projectiles that already launched
. With changes to beam those 2 last builds will be stoped being affected by Eclipse...
It is good that skill lost target cap but when skill doesn't work against anyone it has no point if you can cast it on 1 enemy or 50.
My suggestion that i see as only way to fix it is also related to Unstable Core morph:
Unstable Core - this morph have a huge problem as it still affected by Enduring Rays passive, making it duration from 5 sec to 6.5, that is literally 25% dps nerf. This unacceptable, morph must be removed from being affected by passive.
So, back to fixing Eclipse, it must get 2 treatments -
1. It must gain back ability to reflect all melee and range attacks no matter if they are stamina or magicka.
2. It must be returned to 1 target cap.
1. Firstly it should start working against enemies. As i showed above it might completely stop working against everyone. 2. If skill will become usefull(1st treatment), with current uncapped it will be came too strong in compare to other morph Unstable Core: why would you use UC if you can use Total Dark on everyone and not just apply time bomb but also reflect things.
So, to fix terrible situation when class left without any CC - just make Eclipse to what it was. I still rember time when used Total Dark instead of Spear Shards because of how good it was. It is just that simple.
___________________________________________________________________
@Wrobel don't leave it as it is.

LOL People are going to go ape *** if that reveal stays.

We definitely could use some more visuals on radiant aura and Honor the Dead.

I think I agree on all points.

Lore_lai · January 2017

@Cinbri - thank you and all the others for testing the changes on the PTS! And for providing such detailed reports of your findings!
I do not agree with you on Blazing Spear being too strong. The stun itself is very short, and the fact that the skill was relatively clunky to use against very mobile targets is what kept it in a good place.
It is not a guaranteed CC (look at target, press button - you get the guaranteed CC) and because stuns are blockable, with so many in Cyro blocking left and right, it wouldn't even CC even if it landed on target.

I do like your proposed changes on Luminous, because, as it stands, it is useless as a CC and as you pointed out, does more harm than good. No one wants to hand out free CC immunity all over the place.

Re: Hasty Prayer - I really do hope they give it the Line-of-Sight treatment because if not this will be horrible. Especially if it can heal on different elevations, ignoring LoS, like Wall of Elements can damage (speaking of, when is that sort of nonsense getting fixed?).

Not even going to bother with Eclipse sadly - and it could have been such a unique and interesting skill to use. As it stands, for me it has only ONE use - in vMA on ranged mobs.

mateoz · January 2017

Reverb wrote: »

The most frustrating thing about this thread, is that it won't make one bit of difference. We've seen this in the class feedback threads in the past. By the time these changes make it to PTS, Zeni has already decided it's the direction they are going in, and no amount of feedback will change their minds.

I'm so confident about this that I'll make the following wager: If Zeni returns the stun to Blazing Spear, based on the overwhelmingly negative feedback on removing the only viable Templar class cc, I will buy $250 worth of crowns, immediately.

I think that the core problem is our feedback is irrevelent and changes are set in stone. Even if this thread turn in a 77 pages long like the feedback on removal of stamina regen on block about a year + ago.

I know its going to ruin my gameplay and enjoyment of the game. Blazing spear is a big part of heal/support removing the CC mean that mobs will hit the healer where they were CCed b4.

I don't even care about what it might or might not do pvp, its an unwanted change