Crating Bag Exclusivity is Unfair

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

...

ADarklore wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It's the whole big topic on Xbox One and why are they trying to go digital when a large customer base plans to buy...play and trade later. They aren't looking to sub. That's the whole big issue with Xbox live, psn and this games subs.
The whole point subs were removed from all three literally is because of this.

It's not opinion not my word against yours. It's the market we are in right now. It's a matter of fact and not opinion.

So ppl want bags and just read the threads here and the comments within. There is a clear sperately of those saying...if I can't just buy it I won't have it. Then you have those saying I might sub again if they add the bag. You also have a group who will sub for doc and buy lots of crown items and buy more crown items.

We can talk theory and we can discuss what this companies says or another but bottom
Line. This game dropped a sub for a reason. Ppl complained about ESO plus for a reason and ppl complained about more bank slots for over 2 years. Folks who buy crowns and folks who sub both want the bag. There is absolutely no logic or reason for either customer to be excluded.

I always love it how people create 'facts' with no actual 'facts' to back them up. Please post actual facts- as in direct quotes from ZOS stating the reason they dropped subs- otherwise it is all speculation, assumption and rumor-mongering.

"Our fans are our biggest inspiration, and we’ve listened to their feedback on the entertainment experience they want," Game Director Matt Firor says. "We know that Elder Scrolls fans want choice when it comes to how they play and how they pay, and that is what they will get. We have made numerous changes to the game over the past year, and are confident this is a game that Elder Scrolls fans will love to play."

“New MMOs need time to grow, adapt to their audience, balance gameplay, etc., and they just don’t get that amount of time before their subscriber base plummets to return to a different game. ESO was already not very fun to begin with, and we noticed a dip in population within the first month of playing, so it was only a matter of time before it went free-to-play”, explains Bradley from What’s Your Tag.

It is hard to track the numbers to display this decline in player interest, but we can piece together disparate data to show the drop in subscribers.

Being a private company, Bethesda is not beholden to anyone to release revenue data, but analyst firm SuperData says that subscribers as of June 2014 – or two months after release – numbered around 772,000.

This is woefully low compared to the 5 million players that registered for The Elder Scrolls Online beta, or the estimated 1.2 million players that may have bought both digital and physical copies.

Have you been around long to just read and watch ESO live? They say on there Yes consoles are why we dropped the sub. http://www.twitch.tv/zenimaxonlinestudios/v/3711373

http://www.playstationlifestyle.net/2015/04/26/elder-scrolls-online-subscription-removal-response/

http://www.killerguides.net/blog/mmorpg/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-subscriptions-tanked

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidewalt/2015/01/21/elder-scrolls-online-goes-free-to-play-surprising-no-one/#602cb2b528d2

http://www.pcgamer.com/the-elder-scrolls-online-drops-subscription/

Volkodav · April 2016

Jesh wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's too late in the game for ZOS to be "playing games" like this when non sub holders have already paid out for DLC content. It's a cheap and quite frank a nasty tactic to hold non subscribers to ransom. They should be making subscription more advantageous in other ways than this. I think they've realised that sub holders (like me) have realised that we simply don't get enough value for our money. I mean... 5000 crowns for Ancient orc motif (which I've been farming for far too long for) it's a rip off anyway for something aesthetic but would be nice if subs got at least a decent discount. They've probably reduced the drop rate for stuff like this too.

How are they 'playing games'? We are playing their game. They are offering us different ways, at different price points to play their game. Prices are always going to be evolving, how can they not? And no one has forced anyone to buy anything.
Ancient Orc is available in game in 3 ways to you: 1. grind that SoB!, 2. buy that bad boy in a guild store, 3. bite the bullet and fla$h that ca$h for the motif book. Its up to you to choose the way you want to acquire this content (or not, if it doesn't interest you). You spend your time, virtual money, and real money as you see fit.
No one is holding anyone to ransom! We are all here because we want to and have chosen to be here. What kind of way is that of approaching this issue?
If you personally are not getting enough value, for YOU, out of the sub, then you should really unsubscribe. If you are not unsubscribing its either because you don't care about $15 a month (fair enough) OR you are finding enough value in the sub, on some level. Either way, no one is forcing your hand or a non-subscribers' hands. There are different ways to play this game that make it accessible to lots of people, and I think that's great.

I like this.
Too many people go on about being forced into something ingame.This just is not true,as stated above perfectly.It is our choice as to what we pay for,what is worth purchasing.

Gidorick · April 2016

Volkodav wrote: »

Jesh wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's too late in the game for ZOS to be "playing games" like this when non sub holders have already paid out for DLC content. It's a cheap and quite frank a nasty tactic to hold non subscribers to ransom. They should be making subscription more advantageous in other ways than this. I think they've realised that sub holders (like me) have realised that we simply don't get enough value for our money. I mean... 5000 crowns for Ancient orc motif (which I've been farming for far too long for) it's a rip off anyway for something aesthetic but would be nice if subs got at least a decent discount. They've probably reduced the drop rate for stuff like this too.

How are they 'playing games'? We are playing their game. They are offering us different ways, at different price points to play their game. Prices are always going to be evolving, how can they not? And no one has forced anyone to buy anything.
Ancient Orc is available in game in 3 ways to you: 1. grind that SoB!, 2. buy that bad boy in a guild store, 3. bite the bullet and fla$h that ca$h for the motif book. Its up to you to choose the way you want to acquire this content (or not, if it doesn't interest you). You spend your time, virtual money, and real money as you see fit.
No one is holding anyone to ransom! We are all here because we want to and have chosen to be here. What kind of way is that of approaching this issue?
If you personally are not getting enough value, for YOU, out of the sub, then you should really unsubscribe. If you are not unsubscribing its either because you don't care about $15 a month (fair enough) OR you are finding enough value in the sub, on some level. Either way, no one is forcing your hand or a non-subscribers' hands. There are different ways to play this game that make it accessible to lots of people, and I think that's great.

I like this.
Too many people go on about being forced into something ingame.This just is not true,as stated above perfectly.It is our choice as to what we pay for,what is worth purchasing.

And we would purchase the crafting bag... if it were available for purchase.

Jesh · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

And we would purchase the crafting bag... if it were available for purchase.

And you can! For $15 a month!

Jimbullbee85 · April 2016

Jesh wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

And we would purchase the crafting bag... if it were available for purchase.

And you can! For $15 a month!

Not if you're a youngster and don't have a way of paying monthly. Parents arent going to pay a monthy fee ontop of console membership when their kids could go off onto another game next week. Not everyone has the means or the regular income to pay extra monthly fee.

Volkodav · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

Jesh wrote: »

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

It's too late in the game for ZOS to be "playing games" like this when non sub holders have already paid out for DLC content. It's a cheap and quite frank a nasty tactic to hold non subscribers to ransom. They should be making subscription more advantageous in other ways than this. I think they've realised that sub holders (like me) have realised that we simply don't get enough value for our money. I mean... 5000 crowns for Ancient orc motif (which I've been farming for far too long for) it's a rip off anyway for something aesthetic but would be nice if subs got at least a decent discount. They've probably reduced the drop rate for stuff like this too.

How are they 'playing games'? We are playing their game. They are offering us different ways, at different price points to play their game. Prices are always going to be evolving, how can they not? And no one has forced anyone to buy anything.
Ancient Orc is available in game in 3 ways to you: 1. grind that SoB!, 2. buy that bad boy in a guild store, 3. bite the bullet and fla$h that ca$h for the motif book. Its up to you to choose the way you want to acquire this content (or not, if it doesn't interest you). You spend your time, virtual money, and real money as you see fit.
No one is holding anyone to ransom! We are all here because we want to and have chosen to be here. What kind of way is that of approaching this issue?
If you personally are not getting enough value, for YOU, out of the sub, then you should really unsubscribe. If you are not unsubscribing its either because you don't care about $15 a month (fair enough) OR you are finding enough value in the sub, on some level. Either way, no one is forcing your hand or a non-subscribers' hands. There are different ways to play this game that make it accessible to lots of people, and I think that's great.

I like this.
Too many people go on about being forced into something ingame.This just is not true,as stated above perfectly.It is our choice as to what we pay for,what is worth purchasing.

And we would purchase the crafting bag... if it were available for purchase.

Which is fine. Purchasing it isnt a problem with me.I keep saying this,but no one listens.

Jesh · April 2016

Jimbullbee85 wrote: »

Not if you're a youngster and don't have a way of paying monthly. Not everyone has the means or the regular income to pay monthly.

Absolutely. That's why nothing essential is cut-off to non-subscribers. Everyone must adapt to their means/lifestyle/needs in game (and in life more generally, right?). Craft bags are a luxury in this game, a perk available with premium membership. If you think they are valuable enough to warrant a once a month $15 purchase, then go for it. If, for you, they are not worth that, then don't.

Svalinn · April 2016

I will say now why this tread has become either completely pointless or even "dangerous":

WHY DANGEROUS?

Because in the remote case that ZOS decides to listen to OP and makes the bag available in the Cash Shop they will totally *** off the great majority of the actual subscribers and they would lose a tons of players/subscribers/money to make some "random income guys" happy.

WHY POINTLESS?

Because if ZOS does not make the bag available in the Cash Shop... they will maybe lose a very few players that are a "non sure form of income" for the company, they will get those "not sure income" money back as a sure income from new subscribers and,, at the same time, the majority of people will completly forget this issue even existed with a little bit of time so... there will be absolutly no change for anyone but a very few number of people; and since it's crystal clear what would be the negative thing happening if they changed their mind now, you should just give up and close this tread because, as i already said, it's totally pointless since it will bring absolutly NO CHANGE in ANY POSSIBLE WAY, and will only keep generating flames because instead of beeing a constructive kind of tread, it's a personal war against ZOS from the very first post.

Give it up: no matter how long this discussion keeps going on you will never win because if you "win" it'll be a "lose-lose" situation for everyone were a few people will get a totally unnecessary item in term of ability to play the game in exchange for a massive decrease in subscribers for zenimax... and this will end up hindering the game even for the people, like the OP, that obtained their petty bag.

IT
WILL
NOT
HAPPEN

Solid_Metal · April 2016

Zweible wrote: »

People have reasons for not subscribing. No credit card.....

THIS...!

make paying subs possible with steam wallet pls ZoS !

Jimbullbee85 · April 2016

I can't believe how petty everyone sounds. A subscription is about what we get as part of that subscription not what other players don't have access to. If non subs want to fight it let them. At the end of the day it's up to ZOS what they do. That's doesn't mean everyone has to be happy about it. If ZOS make the bag available in the crown store and subs leave the game over a stupid grudge thats their loss.

Justice31st · April 2016

Buffler wrote: »

Its absolutely fair. ESO + subscribers dont really get any worthwhile perks. We just pay a sub out of blind loyalty. Its about time we got something useful

^This.

Callous2208 · April 2016

A few questions.
1. If they eventually break and offer this bag in the crown store, is it right to assume they will have to offer another sub perk since we will be back to the frankly *** exclusive perks that exist now?
2. What type of items will the b2p non-sub crowd be okay with them adding, if anything?
3. Will the non-sub crowd cry and moan regardless of what new item they add, unless it's some trash incentive they don't want anyway?
4. Will the non-sub crowd cry and moan unless any new incentive that is appealing, is also placed on the crown store, devaluing the sub back to it's current state?

exeeter702 · April 2016

Just to stress the point further...

It has nothing to do with how much money a given b2p player spends in game. ZoS is creating an incentive for players to support the game in a specific way, in this case, by subscribing.

The level of entitlement here is staggering. People thst don't think the sub is worth it and gain all they need from buying dlc are outraged that a feature that they desperately want is tied to a subscription.

Why do you not subscribe? Because you cant legally?, because you feel only suckers do and you gain more for your money by staying b2p etc.

Do you want the bag? If yes, do you think it's worth 15 dollars a month? No? Then you would prefer it be a 1 time purchase like all other features on the crown store right? So you are basically saying that you refuse to accept any QoL feature that is desired be offered to subscribers exclusively when in fact thst is the very essence of what makes subscriptions attractive in theso models in the first place.

Honest question for any and all, what benefits do you feel a subscription should carry? And where do you draw the line? Because based on this entire discussion, you want them to put it on the crown store and render it just another paid for feature bring this full circle.

Accept the fact that Zos desires more subscribers then ask yourself what could they do to incentivise people to sub. This has nothing to do with how much a plAyer spends on crowns and everthing to do with the preferred method of support that Zos is pushing.

Wanderinlost · April 2016

Svalinn wrote: »

I will say now why this tread has become either completely pointless or even "dangerous":

WHY DANGEROUS?

Because in the remote case that ZOS decides to listen to OP and makes the bag available in the Cash Shop they will totally *** off the great majority of the actual subscribers and they would lose a tons of players/subscribers/money to make some "random income guys" happy.

WHY POINTLESS?

Because if ZOS does not make the bag available in the Cash Shop... they will maybe lose a very few players that are a "non sure form of income" for the company, they will get those "not sure income" money back as a sure income from new subscribers and,, at the same time, the majority of people will completly forget this issue even existed with a little bit of time so... there will be absolutly no change for anyone but a very few number of people; and since it's crystal clear what would be the negative thing happening if they changed their mind now, you should just give up and close this tread because, as i already said, it's totally pointless since it will bring absolutly NO CHANGE in ANY POSSIBLE WAY, and will only keep generating flames because instead of beeing a constructive kind of tread, it's a personal war against ZOS from the very first post.

Give it up: no matter how long this discussion keeps going on you will never win because if you "win" it'll be a "lose-lose" situation for everyone were a few people will get a totally unnecessary item in term of ability to play the game in exchange for a massive decrease in subscribers for zenimax... and this will end up hindering the game even for the people, like the OP, that obtained their petty bag.

IT
WILL
NOT
HAPPEN

Has locking central features behind a paywall helped any game ever? The oldest F2P games have suffered for years becasue of restrictive strategies and many are/have being removed becasue restrictions have a detrimental effect on game health which ultimately leads to decline. The B2P people stop buying stuff, and instead of spending on the feature and DLC they will simply sub for a short time then stop. The subscribers will get their selfish demand met but is that going to keep them? No they will probably end up doing the same sooner or later. Then there is a cycle of tourism which is pervasive and feeds on itself.

So many people are here or are still here because of B2P and having full access to features. This changes that. If ZOS is doing it right then people should be happy paying for a sub or a new feature depending on their preference because it adds to their experience and supports a game they enjoy. If they want to start restricting stuff, well then perhaps it will turn a profit for a while but in the long run it's going to do more damage than good and all you diehard ESO+ people will be pointing the finger at ZOS wondering where everyone went and why development is being scaled back.

CaptainBeerDude · April 2016

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

Just sell the crafting bags for 200.00 lifetime fee for those who want to whine and gnash about it being a sub only perk and saying it has to be in the crown store also.

Give them exactly what they want.

There's no way they would then whine about the price is there ?

Sure... just get zos to gimme back the $365 back I've already spent through B2P and I'll happily pay that as a lifetime fee while you lot continue to pay monthly

@Tommy1979AtWar
Generally not how a business works, Buddy. Usually you only get a refund on a faulty item.
You seem to be under some sort of weird impression that an unlimited storage bag for crafting mats is for sale. This game has no such item. It has a very similar item which is avaliable to rent.
Also, your continued attempts to dazzle all and sundry with your extensive crown purchases are falling fairly flat. If you indeed spend that much on crowns, you are the extreme minority. I'm sure there are plenty of subscribers who have spent a similar quantity on this game, if not more. There is probably also a large number of subscribers who would have spent more. @GrumpStump for confirmation please. And now that I think of how many crowns that would get, did you just go to the crown store and order a menu?
You have some serious under estimations on the price of this as well. For a quick example, let's assume you own a house that you do not require for care of yourself or your family. You decide to rent it out, to turn a small income out of it. Someone comes up to you and says, "Well, I don't want to rent it. But I will buy it." Do you take the quick income spike now or do you decline the offer and continue to rent it out for the smaller but regular income.
If an unlimited crafting bag becomes avaliable in the crown store, the bare minimum price is the cost of subbing for a year. I think it would be more. A limited bag would probably be as much as assistants and probably be smaller than you want.
And before you start going on about how I must be a subber, sitting on my high horse, gazing at all the peons...
I don't sub. I also think this is a fantastic benefit for people who do. Hell, I want it so bad that I've almost gotten over having to pay 2 usage fees because console.
Now go try some other B2P or F2P games, see what they do for money and then return and let us know what you think of them. ESO+ is great because it doesn't give you an insurmountable advantage, just some QoL perks. Once they add another one that interests me, or buff the existing ones so that I like them more, they'll have me. Hook, line and sinker.

Nyx2 · April 2016

scorpiodog wrote: »

I can live without crafting bags.
We don't have them now, after all.

But they could save people from logging in and out numerous times to move crafting materials between characters and the bank.

So a bonus, but only a time saver, not a game winner.

More bagspace = more money, crafting = more power.

Just because you can do something doesn't mean you're able to compete with everyone in that aspect.

CaptainBeerDude · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

Mercymae wrote: »

Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.

[snip]

[snip]

It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."

The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.

And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty [snip].

This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.

The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.

A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.

ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.

Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.

The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.

Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.

Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.

@NewBlacksmurf

A couple of things:
Offering it for sale in the CS devalues it as a subscription incentive. If it can be purchased outright, it is no longer an incentive to subscribe.
Subscription is their preferred business model. I believe you like necromancy, find out what ZOS' official stance was before they submitted to B2P.
It has been pointed out repeatedly that subs benefits are sorely lacking. What would you offer in a subscription package to convince me to sub? Bear in mind that current benefits and the crafting bag are almost enough to get me in and I have very little interest in most of the crown store offerings.
[edited to remove quote]

RDMyers65b14_ESO · April 2016

Let me say this. If ZOS does ever offer a limited crafting bag to the nonsubs, it will need to be at the rate of 1,000 crowns per 10 slots, or 5,000 for 50 to make them as viable as the assistants. But I bet the OP doesn't want to pay for the convenience.

And let me tell you this. It is about time that the subs received an extra perk. If you want the perk, then subscribe. It is well worth it. I am on a very limited fixed income and I subscribe to the game and have been since the release. I even buy extra crowns when there is something I want that I don't have the crowns. It is not that much. If you don't want to subscribe, you have no reason to complain about the subs getting a perk. You are not loosing anything for being a nonsub. Your inventory is not shrinking. It is staying the same as it is now. Therfore, you are getting what you pay for.

BTW, I have been to the PTS. The crafting bag is FANTASTIC!!! I am so very glad that I am a sub. It is well worth the price.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

Mercymae wrote: »

Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.

[snip]

[snip]

It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."

The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.

And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty [snip].

This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.

The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.

A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.

ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.

Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.

The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.

Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.

Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.

@NewBlacksmurf

A couple of things:
Offering it for sale in the CS devalues it as a subscription incentive. If it can be purchased outright, it is no longer an incentive to subscribe.
Subscription is their preferred business model. I believe you like necromancy, find out what ZOS' official stance was before they submitted to B2P.
It has been pointed out repeatedly that subs benefits are sorely lacking. What would you offer in a subscription package to convince me to sub? Bear in mind that current benefits and the crafting bag are almost enough to get me in and I have very little interest in most of the crown store offerings.

Really?
So is ESO plus the issue or the bags?

I believe ESO plus is the issue and not the bag. If you're desire to buy ESO plus is for this bag then the program has no value if you feel that allowing the bag outside of ESO plus devalues ESO plus. It's not that the bag devalues ESO plus....it's that ESO plus has no value because of the benefits offered.

Can the folks who want a crafting bag, buy it and can ZOS exchange ESO plus to not hate a feature behind it but instead, actually offer enhanced benefits to having ESO plus? What I'm reading and what the ESO plus benefits threads have said since March was that ESO plus didn't have value. I think the reality of that is sinking in for ppl. But it's not right or a good business decision to bring a feature and lock it behind a subscription when you as a company know that a large portion of your customer base won't support it.
[edited to remove quote]

Massive_Stain · April 2016

I think this is brilliance . I played this when you either subscribed, or didn't play -- no bonus crowns either. This is great from a longevity standpoint . I do sort of hope it becomes purchasable in the future though.

clayandaudrey_ESO · April 2016

Svalinn wrote: »

I will say now why this tread has become either completely pointless or even "dangerous":

WHY DANGEROUS?

Because in the remote case that ZOS decides to listen to OP and makes the bag available in the Cash Shop they will totally *** off the great majority of the actual subscribers and they would lose a tons of players/subscribers/money to make some "random income guys" happy.

WHY POINTLESS?

Because if ZOS does not make the bag available in the Cash Shop... they will maybe lose a very few players that are a "non sure form of income" for the company, they will get those "not sure income" money back as a sure income from new subscribers and,, at the same time, the majority of people will completly forget this issue even existed with a little bit of time so... there will be absolutly no change for anyone but a very few number of people; and since it's crystal clear what would be the negative thing happening if they changed their mind now, you should just give up and close this tread because, as i already said, it's totally pointless since it will bring absolutly NO CHANGE in ANY POSSIBLE WAY, and will only keep generating flames because instead of beeing a constructive kind of tread, it's a personal war against ZOS from the very first post.

Give it up: no matter how long this discussion keeps going on you will never win because if you "win" it'll be a "lose-lose" situation for everyone were a few people will get a totally unnecessary item in term of ability to play the game in exchange for a massive decrease in subscribers for zenimax... and this will end up hindering the game even for the people, like the OP, that obtained their petty bag.

IT
WILL
NOT
HAPPEN

Do not say it will not happen. You may need to look at the thread i linked. Lots of people saying that wouldn't happen either.

tom5330 · April 2016

ZOS_CoriJ wrote: »

We will be unlocking this thread momentarily. This thread has been a long-running debate of this subject and we would like to continue to allow further commentary on the pros and cons of upcoming updates.

Keep in mind that this thread had to be locked due to baiting and heated commentary that was starting to get out of hand. Please be sure to keep the forum rules in mind for future posts. We will close the thread for conduct if it cannot remain civil.

Good team, actually wanting to hear what the people want. *salutes*

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Can ZOS exchange ESO plus to not hate a feature behind it but instead, actually offer enhanced benefits to having ESO plus?

Which is exactly what they are doing with the bags. And whatever other really valuable feature they'd put into ESO+ as incentive to sub, you'd ALSO want in the crown store.

At this stage (29 pages) I firmly think all "unfair" arguments are made up as a disguise for a very simple "I need it because I want it, full stop" attitude.

If you cannot understand the difference in revenue for ZOS between a rented feature and a sold feature, it's hopeless.

(NB : I don't sub).

Sallington · April 2016

It's about time they gave subscribers something worthwhile for supporting their game and basically funding the console launch.

Lysette · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

Mercymae wrote: »

Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.

[snip]

[snip]

It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."

The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.

And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty [snip].

This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.

The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.

A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.

ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.

Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.

The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.

Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.

Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.

@NewBlacksmurf

A couple of things:
Offering it for sale in the CS devalues it as a subscription incentive. If it can be purchased outright, it is no longer an incentive to subscribe.
Subscription is their preferred business model. I believe you like necromancy, find out what ZOS' official stance was before they submitted to B2P.
It has been pointed out repeatedly that subs benefits are sorely lacking. What would you offer in a subscription package to convince me to sub? Bear in mind that current benefits and the crafting bag are almost enough to get me in and I have very little interest in most of the crown store offerings.

Really?
So is ESO plus the issue or the bags?

I believe ESO plus is the issue and not the bag. If you're desire to buy ESO plus is for this bag then the program has no value if you feel that allowing the bag outside of ESO plus devalues ESO plus. It's not that the bag devalues ESO plus....it's that ESO plus has no value because of the benefits offered.

Can the folks who want a crafting bag, buy it and can ZOS exchange ESO plus to not hate a feature behind it but instead, actually offer enhanced benefits to having ESO plus? What I'm reading and what the ESO plus benefits threads have said since March was that ESO plus didn't have value. I think the reality of that is sinking in for ppl. But it's not right or a good business decision to bring a feature and lock it behind a subscription when you as a company know that a large portion of your customer base won't support it.

I think the number of subscribers will rise significantly with this and then the majority will be supporting this feature. there might be some who will just sub for a month, stuff that bag full of stuff and then unsub and use the materials gathered. It is a option ZOS left for those, who do not want to continue to pay for the bag, they will have the advantage of having their stuff in a separate bag, but they can just fill it, when they are subbed.

What many do not see, IMO, is that the subscription will get more and more valuable over time, with any new DLC, which you did not have to pay for individually, but which you get access to via the subscription. It is not even expensive at all, if you substract the value of the crowns you get with a subscription. So if you buy stuff from the crown store anyway, it is not a bad idea to be a subscriber and it will be worth even more the more DLCs will be released.

I myself bought Orsinium and the IC DLC before I subscribed - well, I wish I would have put that money into a subscription instead, but at that time I thought that ESO+ isn't worth it - and it wasn't until they announced, that every quarter there will be a new DLC and we will get a crafting bag as subscribers - at this point in time, I thought, well, subscription is the way to go. And I guess that more people will come to the same conclusion and over time ZOS will get what they wanted, a subscription based game, where the majority of players will be subscribers - simply, because it makes sense in the long run.
[edited to remove quote]

Grayphilosophy · April 2016

exeeter702 wrote: »

Why do you not subscribe? Because you cant legally?, because you feel only suckers do and you gain more for your money by staying b2p etc.

I ain't got the time bruh. I play ESO for a grand total of only a couple of hours a week if the mood presents itself. It's not that I am literally prevented from playing the game, I just enjoy my spare-time entertainment in small doses. ESO being one of them.

Honestly, I'd love to subscribe because it's quite convenient, but I can't justify subscribing with a monthly fee to something I spend so little time on in the long run. For that reason, having single-purchase items in the cash shop is a wonderful thing, because it lets me have more control over what, when and how I pay for the exact things that I want to buy.

Just like a customizable TV package and internet setup. It's bloody annoying that you still have to get a TV package and pay license to have an internet connection. For some companies at least, I'm actually not sure if there are other companies who offer Internet with no TV.

Honest question for any and all, what benefits do you feel a subscription should carry? And where do you draw the line? Because based on this entire discussion, you want them to put it on the crown store and render it just another paid for feature bring this full circle.

A subscribtion should no doubt carry benefits, and there should certainly be room for good benefits as well. But I was under the impression that exclusive items (with the exception of cosmetics) had already proven to be a very inefficient way to monetize or draw incentive.

What ESO+ has now is a good start, but I'm sure there's room for more. The inclusion of a crafting bag isn't a bad thing, it's a freebie on top of the rest in the subscriber package that you won't have to spend extra crowns to purchase. But letting non-subscribers purchase it as well would give more people access to making that purchase. Just like with the DLC's.

Things like +10% exp, inspiration and gold rates are also fine. It's a convenience that just speeds things up for subscribers. Doesn't make them more powerful and doesn't give them an advantage that non-subs will feel.

Then there's the monthly crowns, this is great too. You're paying money, you should be getting crowns. Even at a discount rate. Unless I've missed something though, if you save a little, aren't you able to buy off all the DLC content and other things with the ESO+ crowns? effectively eliminating the need to actually spend any additional money on more crowns?

Other things I'd feel were fair for subscribers could be, but not limited to:

- Headstart access to DLC content
- Exclusive cosmetics (so long as there are alternate cosmetics for the rest)
- Additional character slots by default
- helpful party buffs that don't otherwise affect gameplay (like granting a +5% exp bonus to members of your party or similar)
- VIP services like the Merchant and Banker. Tools of convenience, but not something other player's can't access as well.

My issue with it is that this infamous bag seems to be an exclusive item that offers a much desired mechanic that makes inventory management less of a pain, but only to those who subscribe. Excluding the people who wish to buy it, but don't have the stablitity to subscribe. It's silly really.
An alternative could be to increase the bank and inventory cap for subscribers, this wouldn't be massively different but also wouldn't be an exclusive item, just a convenience.

Just as a thought experiement. How would you (subscribers in general) have reacted if this bag was presented like this:

Something something headlines
- list
- of things
- coming
- Crafting bags for purchase in the crown store, but available for free by default for ESO+ members
- more things
- and so on

Nermy · April 2016

If you want it, sub.

End of...

MornaBaine · April 2016

As someone in a household with 3 subs, paid continuously since launch, yes I feel this is plenty fair. They did away with the loyalty rewards program so I don't even occasionally get a pet I'll never use anymore. To actually get something USEFUL for my sub money? About time.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Can ZOS exchange ESO plus to not hate a feature behind it but instead, actually offer enhanced benefits to having ESO plus?

Which is exactly what they are doing with the bags. And whatever other really valuable feature they'd put into ESO+ as incentive to sub, you'd ALSO want in the crown store.

At this stage (29 pages) I firmly think all "unfair" arguments are made up as a disguise for a very simple "I need it because I want it, full stop" attitude.

If you cannot understand the difference in revenue for ZOS between a rented feature and a sold feature, it's hopeless.

(NB : I don't sub).

The bag is not an enhanced benefit. It's a completely new feature.
You don't set a new feature behind a sub. It's not hard to understand...it's 29 pages of selfish intent.
Benefits are things like:
-faster mount training resets
-reduced daily timers on dungeon finder
-have 3 runs vs 1 run with a blue undaunted item and 101k exp
-reduce research by 50-75%
-increase exp by 50%
-increase gold drops by 50%
-get early access to DLC a week in advance

People are arguing that because they want to sub, that ZOS needs to make changes so subbing has value.
Ok

Tell me specifically how allowing a bag purchase without needing ESO plus hurts or devalues ESO plus.
Please because all you all have shared are extremely biased theories and selfish reasons that express that you feel that a subscriber is more valuable to a company...which is also an opinion and a theory

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Can ZOS exchange ESO plus to not hate a feature behind it but instead, actually offer enhanced benefits to having ESO plus?

Which is exactly what they are doing with the bags. And whatever other really valuable feature they'd put into ESO+ as incentive to sub, you'd ALSO want in the crown store.

At this stage (29 pages) I firmly think all "unfair" arguments are made up as a disguise for a very simple "I need it because I want it, full stop" attitude.

If you cannot understand the difference in revenue for ZOS between a rented feature and a sold feature, it's hopeless.

(NB : I don't sub).

The bag is not an enhanced benefit. It's a completely new feature.
You don't set a new feature behind a sub. It's not hard to understand...it's 29 pages of selfish intent.

People are arguing that because they want to sub, that ZOS needs to make changes so subbing has value.
Ok

Tell me specifically how allowing a bag purchase without needing ESO plus hurts or devalues ESO plus.
Please because all you all have shared are extremely biased theories and selfish reasons that express that you feel that a subscriber is more valuable to a company...which is also an opinion and a theory

It doesnt hurt ESO plus. It helps their bottom line. Selling the item for a one time fee is not as profitable. This isnt a charity. You want fairness go hug a tree or something.

Or ok we will sell you it for a one time fee. 150,000 crowns.