Crating Bag Exclusivity is Unfair

clocksstoppe

ADarklore wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

I'm not directly mad at subbers, I am mad at ZOS for this poor decision and the twisted viewpoints that nonsubbers shouldn't have access to this bag simply because they don't sub.

Yes, after all, we don't want a 'for profit' company to offer something that entices more consistent sales... which a subscription is. A 'once and done' purchase does not continue to generate revenue over time... a subscription does. Offering the 'unlimited' crafting bag for subscribers is a way to generate more revenue over time.

Why do you care?

NewBlacksmurf

newtinmpls wrote: »

ArvenAldmeri wrote: »

I love non-subs complaining about not getting something that subs do. You dont support the game, we do

Leogon wrote: »

I've put more money into this game than a lot of ESO+ members have in the same amount of time. Checkmate.

I think there are two things going on here.

One is the comparison of money - i.e. 'how much' did one person spend/contribute vs the other.

The other is the timing/commitment of that money - i.e. If I sub occasionally to get stuff, and/or buy crowns occasionally, that sends one message to ZoZ about how much income they can expect from my account.

If I sub for two years, that sends another message.

As a company, it's probably great to "hit the jackpot" with really popular crown store items, however I also think that it's likely to be important to have an assured/steady income.

The idea of any given sub benefit seems to me to communicate on some level that it is more ... maybe valuable isn't the right word, but I don't have a better word .... but that subs (and the more assured income/commitment) are important to ZoS.

I think that's the message. If there is one.

No thats the big issue in the conversation.

A subscription is not more valuable than actual cash.

Let me say it this way....would you rather I give you $15 and a pledge of $15/month for the next 2 years
OR
Would you rather have $360 right now (we don't get discount on ESO Plus on consoles)

Its actually more valuable to get the $360 up front.
From a business point of view. a subscription has a concept that the customer will keep coming around if they are paying so we can market to them further......this is true. Value is a concept, profit is literal.

The words you want to use is ....ESO Plus "could" be more valuable if the incentives are right however buying crown is more profitable. One is contingent upon up-sale opportunities which cost if sales aren't made due to marketing, while the other is straight cash.

So for a bag....why would a company pick one or the other when both are what they want customers to participate in?
Also consider, consoles cant buy more than 1 month at a time so there is less value there as compared to PC but there is more potential profit on console as its always $15 and not discounted.

I think you have to look at this all and then we see, no one is better than another because its $'s spent in ZOS' pocket as well as customer retention.

Zyle

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

I didn't think we were arguing points prior to ESO:TU.

We aren't. None of the sub-only benefits I mentioned were available to anyone prior to ESO:TU.

Your complaint was based on the argument that ESO+ players are being offered something that can't be purchased with crowns, and that this was somehow a change in the current paradigm. It is not. Currently (as in right now, today), subs already get access to multiple things that non-subs cannot get at any price. That standard is not changing with the DB update. The only thing that's new is the inclusion of just one additional thing that ESO+ subs will get that non-subs can't.

That's my point, those perks launched WITH ESO:TU, so they were already decided upon before the crown store even existed/launched. So if we're talking from the start of ESO:TU, then yes my point still stands. I still have yet to see a valid reason as to why nonsubs shouldn't have access to these bags. The only "reason" I keep seeing is: ESO+ has sucked forever it's about time they added something to it. So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

clayandaudrey_ESO

Actually the only thing that scares me about the UNLIMITED crafting bag is the paranoia I have that the next tier of gear will be like 5000 mats each. Why else would I need a bag to collect an infinite amount of things.

babylon

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

how you're more deserving to be treat differently .

The subscriber's money is money that comes in every month, paid in advance. Nobody can know when or if a b2per will make a Crown purchase, if ever.

This is why ZOS is attempting to entice people to subscribe - for regular assured amounts of money.

Stop taking it so personally. For a start you are only one person with the stated spending habits, for every one of you there could be 100x more people who have never bought a Crown pack at all, and only ever bought the base game.


______________________

Volkodav

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

Volkodav wrote: »

clayandaudrey_ESO wrote: »

I just want to know why all of you are saying "I pay my 15 dollars a month"?

Wouldn't it be more financially responsible to be on the 6 month plan?

No.I dont want to have to pay 6 months.I prefer to pay monthly.It isnt anyone else's responsibility to say it is more financially responsible". Many people dont happen to have $90.00 at once to plop down.For them,it's more financially viable to pay monthly.

(And before anyone says "if you cant afford it,you shouldnt be playing",you shouldnt be attempting to tell others what they should or should not be doing with their money.)

A question mark indicates looking for information. I did tell you how to spend your money. Also it is misinformation to say it is 90 dollars for 6 months as the rate is 12.99/mo for 6 months. Yes I guess I am nitpicking over 12 dollars.

But I am not debating that with you anymore. This really is all about money and it will come down to where ZOS is making their money in the future.

My opinion is it will end up in the store. It will not upset me if someone is able to buy what I got included in my sub. To me it is really no different than a DLC.

It wont upset me at all either. I think it should have been said this was the way for it to be,rather than just an exclusive.I appreciate that ZOS is giving us those bags,but I do feel bad for those who wont be getting them.We do still have tile though for ZOS to change their minds.
Let's cross our fingers.

ADarklore

clocksstoppe wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

I'm not directly mad at subbers, I am mad at ZOS for this poor decision and the twisted viewpoints that nonsubbers shouldn't have access to this bag simply because they don't sub.

Yes, after all, we don't want a 'for profit' company to offer something that entices more consistent sales... which a subscription is. A 'once and done' purchase does not continue to generate revenue over time... a subscription does. Offering the 'unlimited' crafting bag for subscribers is a way to generate more revenue over time.

Why do you care?

So you couldn't argue with what I said, but still felt compelled to comment. Go figure.

Zyle

ADarklore wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

I'm not directly mad at subbers, I am mad at ZOS for this poor decision and the twisted viewpoints that nonsubbers shouldn't have access to this bag simply because they don't sub.

Yes, after all, we don't want a 'for profit' company to offer something that entices more consistent sales... which a subscription is. A 'once and done' purchase does not continue to generate revenue over time... a subscription does. Offering the 'unlimited' crafting bag for subscribers is a way to generate more revenue over time.

This doesn't address my point at all. A 'once and done' purchase generally falls within price range of 1 month of subbing, yet ZOS loses nearly the equivalent amount of sub cost in giving free crowns. I'm really not gonna get into "who pays ZOS more" because only ZOS knows the true numbers. I will say predictable income is much easier to plan things with than non-predictable income, but income is income.

Slurg

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

Let me explain this a slightly different way using this comparison. When they changed the payment model to B2P and made subscriptions optional:
1. ZOS did not reduce the amount of gold dropped by mobs.
2. ZOS did not increase research times.
3. ZOS did not reduce XP gains.

Here is what they did do: They started introducing large quantities of new crafting materials with every update, without increasing the maximum amount of bank space available for purchase. They did increase bag space for individual characters, which was helpful. But not account wide bank space (upgrades for which can be purchased for crowns, up to a maximum cap).

The only way to solve an inventory management problem that was intentionally created by the company to inconvenience people is to purchase a subscription. It is the only subscription bonus that was created specifically by doing something to intentionally inconvenience players. And that is distasteful.

Tommy1979AtWar

babylon wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

how you're more deserving to be treat differently .

The subscriber's money is money that comes in every month, paid in advance. Nobody can know when or if a b2per will make a Crown purchase, if ever.

This is why ZOS is attempting to entice people to subscribe - for regular assured amounts of money.

Stop taking it so personally. For a start you are only one person with the stated spending habits, for every one of you there could be 100x more people who have never bought a Crown pack at all, and only ever bought the base game.


______________________

Smooth move editing out the rest of my post there lol

clocksstoppe

ADarklore wrote: »

clocksstoppe wrote: »

ADarklore wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

I'm not directly mad at subbers, I am mad at ZOS for this poor decision and the twisted viewpoints that nonsubbers shouldn't have access to this bag simply because they don't sub.

Yes, after all, we don't want a 'for profit' company to offer something that entices more consistent sales... which a subscription is. A 'once and done' purchase does not continue to generate revenue over time... a subscription does. Offering the 'unlimited' crafting bag for subscribers is a way to generate more revenue over time.

Why do you care?

So you couldn't argue with what I said, but still felt compelled to comment. Go figure.

There was nothing to argue against in your post. I just asked you why do you care how ZOS makes money. If you dodge the question it just means you are likely a ZOS dev in disguise or someone who has nothing better to do than worship ZOS.

NewBlacksmurf

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

I didn't think we were arguing points prior to ESO:TU.

We aren't. None of the sub-only benefits I mentioned were available to anyone prior to ESO:TU.

Your complaint was based on the argument that ESO+ players are being offered something that can't be purchased with crowns, and that this was somehow a change in the current paradigm. It is not. Currently (as in right now, today), subs already get access to multiple things that non-subs cannot get at any price. That standard is not changing with the DB update. The only thing that's new is the inclusion of just one additional thing that ESO+ subs will get that non-subs can't.

That's my point, those perks launched WITH ESO:TU, so they were already decided upon before the crown store even existed/launched. So if we're talking from the start of ESO:TU, then yes my point still stands. I still have yet to see a valid reason as to why nonsubs shouldn't have access to these bags. The only "reason" I keep seeing is: ESO+ has sucked forever it's about time they added something to it. So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Cause there is no valid reason (sorry to jump in )

babylon

Zyle wrote: »

So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.

Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?

Jesh

ESO Plus needs something extra (hence the 'Plus'). The crafting bags are definitely the best incentive to be a subscriber, and the preexisting perks of being a sub were a little lackluster.
Hopefully this leads to more game subscribers.

Tommy1979AtWar

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.

Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?

I'm curious... why sub for 2 years if there was no reason... I thought you were all "supporting" the game

Zyle

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.

Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?

That's fantastic that ZOS is rewarding subbers, but intentionally making it exclusive to subscriptions is punishing to non-subscribers. I'm not asking to be rewarded with a free crafting bag like subscribers are getting, I'm asking for the option to buy.

The part in which you quoted was out of context as well, it was referring to the viewpoint of many subbers in this thread.

clocksstoppe

babylon wrote: »

Nobody is punishing you.

Yes they are. I have hundreds less bank slots and have to constantly log in and out to access my crafting mats because this item will not be in the crown store. I am being punished for not subbing even though I want to buy the bag.

Volkodav

Slurg wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

Let me explain this a slightly different way using this comparison. When they changed the payment model to B2P and made subscriptions optional:
1. ZOS did not reduce the amount of gold dropped by mobs.
2. ZOS did not increase research times.
3. ZOS did not reduce XP gains.

Here is what they did do: They started introducing large quantities of new crafting materials with every update, without increasing the maximum amount of bank space available for purchase. They did increase bag space for individual characters, which was helpful. But not account wide bank space (upgrades for which can be purchased for crowns, up to a maximum cap).

The only way to solve an inventory management problem that was intentionally created by the company to inconvenience people is to purchase a subscription. It is the only subscription bonus that was created specifically by doing something to intentionally inconvenience players. And that is distasteful.

How did you decide what ZOS was thinking when they made the bags for Subbers? How can you know they did it to "intentionally inconvenience players"? What insider info did you get?
People make these judgmental statements when they have no idea other than their own personal assumptions.
And that is distasteful.
Also,it doesnt make people think you have an "in" on how ZOS thinks.

babylon

Zyle wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.

Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?

...I'm asking for the option to buy.

That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.

Again, how do you not see this?

Miszou

babylon

Everyone is taking it personally, could it be instead this is an economic decision?

Zyle

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.

Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?

...I'm asking for the option to buy.

That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.

Again, how do you not see this?

How do you not see that we're arguing the very "point" you just listed? The thread title is "Crating(lol) Bag Exclusivity is unfair"

Divinius

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

I didn't think we were arguing points prior to ESO:TU.

We aren't. None of the sub-only benefits I mentioned were available to anyone prior to ESO:TU.

Your complaint was based on the argument that ESO+ players are being offered something that can't be purchased with crowns, and that this was somehow a change in the current paradigm. It is not. Currently (as in right now, today), subs already get access to multiple things that non-subs cannot get at any price. That standard is not changing with the DB update. The only thing that's new is the inclusion of just one additional thing that ESO+ subs will get that non-subs can't.

That's my point, those perks launched WITH ESO:TU, so they were already decided upon before the crown store even existed/launched. So if we're talking from the start of ESO:TU, then yes my point still stands. I still have yet to see a valid reason as to why nonsubs shouldn't have access to these bags. The only "reason" I keep seeing is: ESO+ has sucked forever it's about time they added something to it. So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

The crown store and ESO:TU happened at (basically) the same time. The whole ESO game model shifted from being a solely sub-based game (as in, without a sub you get nothing) to an optional-sub game with a cash shop. Just because the cash shop wasn't quite ready to go Day One, doesn't mean it wasn't an integral part of the same plan.

Since ESO:TU's inception, the plan was to offer a-la-carte items in a cash shop to all players, and "rent" certain things to players that were willing to pay a regular sub fee. Some of the items that are rented to ESO+ subs (i.e. the DLCs) are also optionally purchasable, for people that don't want to pay a regular fee. Other things that are "rented" to subs (10% bonuses to gold/exp/research times), are not offered in the cash shop. Likewise, there are many, many items for sale in the cash shop that ESO+ subs can't get without paying for them like everyone else.

Over the last year, many new items have been offered in the cash shop, in an attempt to get players to spend more money there. This may be the first time a new perk has been offered to ESO+ subs, but there's absolutely nothing "unfair" about them choosing to add yet one more perk to the sub. They are just trying to get people to spend more money using their other option.

I'm really quite sorry if players such as you can't see why there's absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing.

Callous2208

Edit: Slow to post. Question already answered.

babylon

This is pointless and getting nowhere.

clocksstoppe

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.

Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?

...I'm asking for the option to buy.

That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.

Again, how do you not see this?

No, I think the point of the bag is to be used in crafting.

Asherons_Call

strikeback1247 wrote: »

I still haven't gotten an answer to my simple question:

What are you people hoarding??!!! How did you fill up a full bank and 8 character inventories?!

Everything. Lol

Crafting mats take up a couple of characters
Set pieces take up a couple of characters
Potions, maps, surveys take up another
Clothing takes up another (not armor, clothing)

Zyle

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

I didn't think we were arguing points prior to ESO:TU.

We aren't. None of the sub-only benefits I mentioned were available to anyone prior to ESO:TU.

Your complaint was based on the argument that ESO+ players are being offered something that can't be purchased with crowns, and that this was somehow a change in the current paradigm. It is not. Currently (as in right now, today), subs already get access to multiple things that non-subs cannot get at any price. That standard is not changing with the DB update. The only thing that's new is the inclusion of just one additional thing that ESO+ subs will get that non-subs can't.

That's my point, those perks launched WITH ESO:TU, so they were already decided upon before the crown store even existed/launched. So if we're talking from the start of ESO:TU, then yes my point still stands. I still have yet to see a valid reason as to why nonsubs shouldn't have access to these bags. The only "reason" I keep seeing is: ESO+ has sucked forever it's about time they added something to it. So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

The crown store and ESO:TU happened at (basically) the same time. The whole ESO game model shifted from being a solely sub-based game (as in, without a sub you get nothing) to an optional-sub game with a cash shop. Just because the cash shop wasn't quite ready to go Day One, doesn't mean it wasn't an integral part of the same plan.

Since ESO:TU's inception, the plan was to offer a-la-carte items in a cash shop to all players, and "rent" certain things to players that were willing to pay a regular sub fee. Some of the items that are rented to ESO+ subs (i.e. the DLCs) are also optionally purchasable, for people that don't want to pay a regular fee. Other things that are "rented" to subs (10% bonuses to gold/exp/research times), are not offered in the cash shop. Likewise, there are many, many items for sale in the cash shop that ESO+ subs can't get without paying for them like everyone else.

Over the last year, many new items have been offered in the cash shop, in an attempt to get players to spend more money there. This may be the first time a new perk has been offered to ESO+ subs, but there's absolutely nothing "unfair" about them choosing to add yet one more perk to the sub. They are just trying to get people to spend more money using their other option.

I'm really quite sorry if players such as you can't see why there's absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing.

I'm basing my standard off how the cash shop has run since it was released. I still feel my standard is valid.

I think it comes down to the sentence I bolded, we're going to have to agree to disagree. You don't view it as unfair, I do.

GrumpStump

Inarre wrote: »

Wanderinlost wrote: »

So purchasing the game, subbing for years, buying DLC, spending hundreds on crowns is not enough? Just because you are ESO+ now does not make you in anyway special. It doesn't mean many others have not paid and continue to pay though crowns or make them less of a customer.

Then there are those who purchase every dlc, buy crowns AND sub...

Thaaaaaat's me!!!


GrumpStump

Zyle

Callous2208 wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

I didn't think we were arguing points prior to ESO:TU.

You can't throw out that line without clarification. Where in his post did he allude to anything pre-ESO:TU?

When he started listing the perks for ESO+. You can see in my follow up posts I explain that line quite clearly, those perks were decided upon prior to crown store launching even if they did launch at the same time.