Crating Bag Exclusivity is Unfair
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grayphilosophy wrote: »Reading through these replies, many of the (what I assume to be) subscribers seem happy about getting a crafting bag, while the (what I assume to be) non-subscribers aren't very happy to not be able to get one.
I see subscribers arguing that it's a good addition, or perk, because the current subscribtion bonuses aren't that spectacular. And that the non-subscribers should not complain.
Without calling anyone out, there are even some replies saying that non-subscribers just want everything for free, and that subscribers at least pay to support the game...
I did some math, I could be wrong, but I still did some math.
Currently, if you stay subbed using the lowest value model (30 days sub for $15), you gain access to approximately $88 or 9.720 Crowns worth of content/bonuses (using the max value $50, 5500 Crown pack as comparison, about 110 Crowns per dollar).
Including:
- all the DLC's (with possibly more to come)
- exp bonus
- monthly crowns to spend
Not including
- crafting, trait research and gold boost
Compared to not being subbed and having purchased no crowns or DLC's separately.
If we don't include the DLC's in this, you still gain access to ~$20 or 2.220 crowns worth of bonuses every month, not including the crafting, trait research and gold boosts.
In conclusion: Subscribers and non-subscribers are incomparable. Saying ESO+ doesn't have it's advantages is very incorrect. You'd have to purchase a $50 crown pack every ~2,4 months to get the same value as the lowest value subscribtion model, and you still wouldn't be able to get a crafting bag.
Just give us the damn option to purchase a crafting bag in the crown store. Even a lesser crafting bag would do.
Irrelevant. Subscribers are of higher value to the business model. More predictable and steady income is premium and increased the value of the IP.
As such it is both rational and logical to offer such a reward ONLY to subs to encourage subscribing.7 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?
Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.
Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?
...I'm asking for the option to buy.
That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.
Again, how do you not see this?
They do see it. Thats their point.
Its locked behind a sub instead of being available to buy for all customers.
Why would any company not want a customer to be incentivized to spend money on their product?
ESO Plus isn't an exclusive club
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?
I'm following that in your understanding things should flow around this because of you assumption.
Factually, subscriptions aren't bringing them more profits. Lets keep this simple.
If in fact, that was the case, then PC would have a sub and PS4 would differ from PC maybe and Xbox One would be buy2P.
We also know that a subscription is a min of $15/month and some subscribers buy in bulk on PC cause its cheaper. On console we cant so ZOS rely on sub renewals monthly.
So for a profits and projections/retention purposes lets say you're 100% right.
Why lock a crafting back behind a sub only?
Thats like ZOS only allowing DLC access with ESO Plus and not allowing ppl to buy DLC.
If thats their logic, they would be encouraged to let those mindsets and consultants go who took them to this conclusion as it cuts into profit potential.
Would it not be more likely to offer a crown increment purchase as well as ESO Plus?
No. It's nothing like not allowing people to buy DLC - with DLC you can achieve all you want from an area then be done with it, so there's no harm in letting you buy it outright. However with a Crafting Bag only by renting it out in the first place can you make it something people need to continue to rent to retain access to, as it's not anything like an area full of quests you can complete.
If you sell it, then a person can use it endlessly, whereas with a DLC area, people can feel no need to re-visit the area and that wouldn't be as lucrative for renting out as a Crafting Bag will be. They've finally found something that can encourage people to stay subbed, so why would they not use this effectively as an incentive to subscribe (and give them regular payments).
You're arguing semantics here...
DLC
-Content of any kind used in the game....thats everything in the crown store as well as any benefits of any paid DLC including ESO Plus which is DLC because it provides in game content.
So you're telling me that they can sales bank and mount upgrades for bag space....but they should only allow ESO Plus subscribers to have a crafting bag renting it out has more value.
Please stop....read what we are asking...
We are asking that the bag in addition to ESO Plus be available for crowns.
So if that means a higher price or if that means certain access expires after 30-180 days...OK but thats no different than ESO Plus so that argument makes no sense. We want access to use it.
ESO Plus give access to add and remove items. once ESO Plus stops, you don't loose the bag. You just cant add items to it.
If this bag is your understanding of something that will keep people subscribed then your missing the feedback.
One group wants to pay $15 month for it
another group jest wants to buy it outright.....
who is missing out on money. I buy DLC...play it on all 8 characters and soon to be more with more slots so IC...that been a year for a set price. But you're saying a crafting bag needs to be different.....
Well if thats the case, then the whole game needs to be sub only for all DLC including bags and no crowns purchases other than vanity items.
Right?
No.
Bank and bag space and horses/horse upgrades can be bought using gold (in game currency). You don't need to use Crowns to buy bags/bank/horses/horse upgrades. Area DLC (as I explained) can be completed and is also not worth attempting to rent out as a subscription incentive.
A Crafting Bag is new and this is something attractive as a rental, as I explained clearly in my post above.
DLC is not one and done.
ALL DLC offered has dailies and repeatable items for one or more characters. Its literally the exact same concept but you want to say its different because you want to make an exclusivity argument....which is basically like segregation of customers. Why would any company do that on purpose?
ESO Plus is literally from a profit standpoint no different than buying 1500 crowns.
Its at most $15 every 30 days plus tax
-***IMPORTANT****
People knowingly choose crown packs over ESO Plus and are happy. They just dont want a sub to manage and are OK missing out on the existing benefits but do want a crafting bag.
Here is what you're missing.
1. Everyone isnt going to sub to ESO Plus who buys crowns regardless of the incentive.
2. Those who don't sub who are wanting the bag....arent going to sub either way...but they are point blank saying I will flat out buy the thing. Maybe a range exists for each individual but ppl spend 5k in crowns for a single motif...2500 - 4k for a single DLC with a mount and a pet. Why wouldn't you sale a crafting bag to them?
When a company begins to offer products and block or exclude customers they are cutting their profit potential.
I think you all want to make an argument that ESO Plus is better financially for ZOS to make yourselves stand out or be placed in a different category but you're no different than any other customer.Some spend none, some spend some and some spend more. Regardless of the method, you and everyone else is a customer.
Programs have this way of making certain personality types feel belonged and thats a business strategy that holds true still today...but that has nothing to do with cutting potential customers out.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on April 26, 2016 6:46PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5014 -
Acharnor✭✭✭✭Man - I don't get this debate. This benefit is a great incentive to reward customer loyalty for maintaining an ongoing subscribtion. I think it's great. And no, I am not subbing at the moment. But is is making me think about it again. There has to be incentives beyond what it is now - I stopped largely b/c the benefits were pretty small really. When you buy crowns and DLC you support the game but you get the service you paid for - done. Committing to an ongoing sub is a form of support of another order and you should get something sweet as a result.Celebrate for life is short but sweet for certain.9 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭who have purchased the DLC
Except you never purchase anything. Every transaction is legally a rental of services, whether you rent per month through a subscription or rent for the lifetime of the game through crowns.
Nobody owns anything in this game. And that's the relationship I have with it. I can have fun throwing around ideas on the forum for my own devices, but I'm such a tiny stakeholder that I'll never fool myself into believing I'm a special snowflake.
I'm just a tourist in a distant world.
Bottled water: 3000 crowns.
Bottled water in fancy container: 5000 crowns.signing off5 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?
Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.
Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?
...I'm asking for the option to buy.
That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.
Again, how do you not see this?
They do see it. Thats their point.
Its locked behind a sub instead of being available to buy for all customers.
Why would any company not want a customer to be incentivized to spend money on their product?
ESO Plus isn't an exclusive club
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?
I'm following that in your understanding things should flow around this because of you assumption.
Factually, subscriptions aren't bringing them more profits. Lets keep this simple.
If in fact, that was the case, then PC would have a sub and PS4 would differ from PC maybe and Xbox One would be buy2P.
We also know that a subscription is a min of $15/month and some subscribers buy in bulk on PC cause its cheaper. On console we cant so ZOS rely on sub renewals monthly.
So for a profits and projections/retention purposes lets say you're 100% right.
Why lock a crafting back behind a sub only?
Thats like ZOS only allowing DLC access with ESO Plus and not allowing ppl to buy DLC.
If thats their logic, they would be encouraged to let those mindsets and consultants go who took them to this conclusion as it cuts into profit potential.
Would it not be more likely to offer a crown increment purchase as well as ESO Plus?
No. It's nothing like not allowing people to buy DLC - with DLC you can achieve all you want from an area then be done with it, so there's no harm in letting you buy it outright. However with a Crafting Bag only by renting it out in the first place can you make it something people need to continue to rent to retain access to, as it's not anything like an area full of quests you can complete.
If you sell it, then a person can use it endlessly, whereas with a DLC area, people can feel no need to re-visit the area and that wouldn't be as lucrative for renting out as a Crafting Bag will be. They've finally found something that can encourage people to stay subbed, so why would they not use this effectively as an incentive to subscribe (and give them regular payments).
You're arguing semantics here...
DLC
-Content of any kind used in the game....thats everything in the crown store as well as any benefits of any paid DLC including ESO Plus which is DLC because it provides in game content.
So you're telling me that they can sales bank and mount upgrades for bag space....but they should only allow ESO Plus subscribers to have a crafting bag renting it out has more value.
Please stop....read what we are asking...
We are asking that the bag in addition to ESO Plus be available for crowns.
So if that means a higher price or if that means certain access expires after 30-180 days...OK but thats no different than ESO Plus so that argument makes no sense. We want access to use it.
ESO Plus give access to add and remove items. once ESO Plus stops, you don't loose the bag. You just cant add items to it.
If this bag is your understanding of something that will keep people subscribed then your missing the feedback.
One group wants to pay $15 month for it
another group jest wants to buy it outright.....
who is missing out on money. I buy DLC...play it on all 8 characters and soon to be more with more slots so IC...that been a year for a set price. But you're saying a crafting bag needs to be different.....
Well if thats the case, then the whole game needs to be sub only for all DLC including bags and no crowns purchases other than vanity items.
Right?
No.
Bank and bag space and horses/horse upgrades can be bought using gold (in game currency). You don't need to use Crowns to buy bags/bank/horses/horse upgrades. Area DLC (as I explained) can be completed and is also not worth attempting to rent out as a subscription incentive.
A Crafting Bag is new and this is something attractive as a rental, as I explained clearly in my post above.
snip
All I'm getting from this hoo haa is people want it so bad they're gagging for it...if so - sub.
Done.4 -
ZOS_AlanGadminWe appreciate all of the constructive feedback in this debate. Unfortunately, this discussion has gotten very tense and inflammatory, and this has continued despite an in-thread warning by the moderators.
It's fine to disagree with someone, but it's important to keep any disagreement or criticism respectful and constructive. In particular, it's important to criticize someone's idea, rather than the person themselves. Given how heated this discussion has gotten, we also ask that everyone make extra effort to help decrease the tension. If the problems persist, warnings will be sent to anyone who was misbehaving, being disruptive or unconstructive, or otherwise breaking the forum rules.Edited by ZOS_AlanG on April 26, 2016 9:12PMForum Rules | Promoting Constructive Discussion | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Help Site
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Wanderinlost✭✭✭
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?It is a perk of giving money every month to keep the servers going, to maintenance, to develop new content - regular income that ZOS will get every month. A predictable amount of income for the company.
See the whole problem with this thinking is that everyone would subscribe and stay subscribe to get this feature. For me I put inventory at a high value, in a game like Black Desert I have already spent over $200 in a few months upgrading warehouses and inventory and will spend more in the future. A game like Path of Exile Ive bought about 100 tabs over the years, and those are just 2 of many games. ESO I would have already spent money as well upgrading bank and horse. But I won't rent, as renting is a failed, counter productive business model which has lead to many bad design and development decisions throughout the MMO sphere *cough* WoW... Still ESO+ is already one of the highest value MMO subscriptions in the industry even without the crafting bag. If ESO is your main game and you play a lot and expect to be playing for a long time it is worth it. If you expect to be playing a lot short term then it is worth it just for the crowns you will get. However if you are like me a nomad who plays on average 10 hours per month than being beholden to a subscription is not worth it in more than 2 or 3 games at any given time game, thus the choice to primarily support games with flexible business models. ESO was one of those games until they launch this. Does it mean I will quit ESO? No, I will still play but instead of spending over $100 a year upgrading and buying DLC it will be one of the handful of games I sub to a few months per year at most. ESO does not live in a vacuum, there are more games out there, and putting features behind a paywall is a big step towards diminishing accessibility. It is diminishing one of the strongest and most desirable virtues it has going for it. That crafting bag would be a guaranteed sale, and go a long way toward cementing my already strong loyalty to this game. Prior to this I could have easily said I would be purchasing DLC right up until the day they shut the servers down, even if that day was 10 or 20+ years from now. Although if I have to subscribe? No way. Not going to happen. Now I can't say if I will even have this game on my hard drive a few years from now, just like the handful of other sub games that I still sometime play.Edited by Wanderinlost on April 26, 2016 10:04PM2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?
Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.
Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?
...I'm asking for the option to buy.
That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.
Again, how do you not see this?
They do see it. Thats their point.
Its locked behind a sub instead of being available to buy for all customers.
Why would any company not want a customer to be incentivized to spend money on their product?
ESO Plus isn't an exclusive club
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?
I'm following that in your understanding things should flow around this because of you assumption.
Factually, subscriptions aren't bringing them more profits. Lets keep this simple.
If in fact, that was the case, then PC would have a sub and PS4 would differ from PC maybe and Xbox One would be buy2P.
We also know that a subscription is a min of $15/month and some subscribers buy in bulk on PC cause its cheaper. On console we cant so ZOS rely on sub renewals monthly.
So for a profits and projections/retention purposes lets say you're 100% right.
Why lock a crafting back behind a sub only?
Thats like ZOS only allowing DLC access with ESO Plus and not allowing ppl to buy DLC.
If thats their logic, they would be encouraged to let those mindsets and consultants go who took them to this conclusion as it cuts into profit potential.
Would it not be more likely to offer a crown increment purchase as well as ESO Plus?
No. It's nothing like not allowing people to buy DLC - with DLC you can achieve all you want from an area then be done with it, so there's no harm in letting you buy it outright. However with a Crafting Bag only by renting it out in the first place can you make it something people need to continue to rent to retain access to, as it's not anything like an area full of quests you can complete.
If you sell it, then a person can use it endlessly, whereas with a DLC area, people can feel no need to re-visit the area and that wouldn't be as lucrative for renting out as a Crafting Bag will be. They've finally found something that can encourage people to stay subbed, so why would they not use this effectively as an incentive to subscribe (and give them regular payments).
You're arguing semantics here...
DLC
-Content of any kind used in the game....thats everything in the crown store as well as any benefits of any paid DLC including ESO Plus which is DLC because it provides in game content.
So you're telling me that they can sales bank and mount upgrades for bag space....but they should only allow ESO Plus subscribers to have a crafting bag renting it out has more value.
Please stop....read what we are asking...
We are asking that the bag in addition to ESO Plus be available for crowns.
So if that means a higher price or if that means certain access expires after 30-180 days...OK but thats no different than ESO Plus so that argument makes no sense. We want access to use it.
ESO Plus give access to add and remove items. once ESO Plus stops, you don't loose the bag. You just cant add items to it.
If this bag is your understanding of something that will keep people subscribed then your missing the feedback.
One group wants to pay $15 month for it
another group jest wants to buy it outright.....
who is missing out on money. I buy DLC...play it on all 8 characters and soon to be more with more slots so IC...that been a year for a set price. But you're saying a crafting bag needs to be different.....
Well if thats the case, then the whole game needs to be sub only for all DLC including bags and no crowns purchases other than vanity items.
Right?
No.
Bank and bag space and horses/horse upgrades can be bought using gold (in game currency). You don't need to use Crowns to buy bags/bank/horses/horse upgrades. Area DLC (as I explained) can be completed and is also not worth attempting to rent out as a subscription incentive.
A Crafting Bag is new and this is something attractive as a rental, as I explained clearly in my post above.
snip
All I'm getting from this hoo haa is people want it so bad they're gagging for it...if so - sub.
Done.
It's not that ppl want it bad. They asked to be able to buy absent of a sub.
Let's not add invalid assumptions.
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
Riggsy✭✭✭✭I do think subscribers deserve perks not available in the crown store for their continued loyalty though Im not saying this bag should be one (still 50/50 on it tbh). I also believe there will always be arguments over the exclusivity of said perks, even if its just a mount or costume.
However,
As a few people pointed out the root problem is the current business model. Why would someone who spent crowns on the DLC then subscribe at full price when they get very little new stuff in return, alternatively why should someone who has subscribed for a whole year not be able to keep access to the DLC expansions released in that year after having paid $180. The model needs to be reworked to incentive both sides.
Either allow people who bought the DLC subscription access at a reduced cost and give current subscribers DLC content if they have subscribed for a period of time or.... do away with the subscription system altogether (or conversely reinstate it to sub only, yeah I know haha).MMAGA - We Made Medium Armor Great AgainEvasion: Casting this ability and its morphs now requires that you wear 5 pieces of Medium Armor.
Woe Biden - Mule
Donald Thump - Mule
M'aiq Pence - Mule5 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.
[snip]
[snip]
It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."
The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.
And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty [snip]
[edited for profanity bypass & to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 14, 2025 1:06PM#SavePlayer15 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.
[snip]
[snip]
It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."
The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.
And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty [snip].
This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.
The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.
A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.
ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.
Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.
The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.
Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.
Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on December 14, 2025 1:07PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5013 -
scorpiodog✭✭✭✭✭I can live without crafting bags.
We don't have them now, after all.
But they could save people from logging in and out numerous times to move crafting materials between characters and the bank.
So a bonus, but only a time saver, not a game winner.1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭scorpiodog wrote: »I can live without crafting bags.
We don't have them now, after all.
But they could save people from logging in and out numerous times to move crafting materials between characters and the bank.
So a bonus, but only a time saver, not a game winner.
Actually may reduce server lag and fix Cyrodil by accident. Maybe it's worth giving everyone it for 1 weekend to test-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Rex-Umbra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Should be able to buy the craft bag for 5000 crowns.Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.0 -
NateAssassin✭✭✭✭✭Crafting bag is pointless, I already have a guild bank of 500 slots for crafting garbage, why would I pay 15$ a month for the same thing?AD | Malaya the Mystic ─ VR16 Khajiit Sorc | Shal'ina the Swift ─ VR16 Khajiit NB | Jòhn Cena ─ VR1 Khajiit NB | Priestess Shaari ─ VR1 Temp0 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.
Who said any thing about contracts. Where did I say a damn thing about contracts. I want you to go back read every thing I wrote and show me exactly where I said a damn thing about contracts. Oh and by the way... cell phone companies, insurance, Power companies, cable companies, all have a monthly payment.... Not one of what I listed that I pay a month has a contract, but I don't pay that month you can be damn sure I won't have that service... so yeah maybe you should understand what you are talking about before actually talking.Because what they get from me is reliable stable income.... which is what everyone keeps trying to tell you people that these bags promote.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.
A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.
Yeah this is such a load of ***. The company already knows all this. it also knows more subs = more money. There is more of a guarantee that they'll make more money from a small amount of subs than they will from a large amount of B2P. This has been discussed and even linked to articles discussing this time and time again.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.
Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.
The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.
Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.
Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.
Which devalues the sub model.... yet again you fail to see what they are trying to do. They want subs..... subs = more money. There are tons and tons of articles discussing the benefits of draw backs of both all over the internet. Subs = reliable income... proven... time and time again. B2P/F2P is not reliable. 2.2% of B2P/F2P actually buy stuff and support the game. This is not a reliable source of income. And they didn't want this game to go B2P.... xbox forced them to because they wouldn't budge on their monthly cost to access their network.
To be honest, Zos would have been better off scrapping Xbox all together and having the sub for PC/PS since PS already said they'd drop the monthly fee.
Also, I never once said they where taking any thing away. What I'm advocating is that the sub incentive needs to stay. I also read you other post you tried to start and you are completely missing the point. Every thing that is sold on the store that ESO+ people don't have to purchase (even though most of them by now have purchased all the DLC's anyway) devalues ESO+. So why are you advocating that you NEED those bags so bad that they need to take away from the value of subs.
Also, I'm pretty sure your xbox issue with crown store and such is a Microsoft thing and not a ZOS thing. Microsoft can be pretty stingy when it comes to what is allowed and not allowed to be accessed by their network. So blaming ZOS for that is not the right place. More than likely.
Edited by Xundiin on April 26, 2016 11:32PM#SavePlayer18 -
milkbox✭✭✭✭✭Do non-subscribers get to test drive the craft bag on the PTS?
I played with it today, and my bank went from 230/240 to 8/240 (I am subscribed). This will free up at least 2 alt mules who carry nothing but gear (and a lot of that gear will be obsolete, since all of my vets will be able to wear the cp160 stuff). Since all the crafting items go directly into the bag, I will need to bank and vendor-break far less frequently
I hope they've offered the ability to try it on the PTS to non-subscribers, because it will sell itself.
(not going to weigh-in on the sub vs. non-sub debate, just here to report that it streamlines the game immensely.)3 -
Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭First.. I can't believe this thread was reopened...
Secondly...NateAssassin wrote: »Crafting bag is pointless, I already have a guild bank of 500 slots for crafting garbage, why would I pay 15$ a month for the same thing?
There seems to be a couple of ways people have "solved" their inventory problems- Use mule characters
- get a "personal" build bank
We need a third option. A way to increase our inventory beyond the cap that doesn't include exploiting the game or being a subscriber.
back in April 2015 I suggested the following, and I still think it's a pretty sound idea that would work well as an alternative to a subscription:Crafting Material Bags: These bags have enough spaces to hold one stack of every type of material for the specific craft. Only the specific craft’s materials can be placed within the corresponding bag.- Alchemist Satchel (1500 Crowns)
- Blacksmith’s Haversack (1500 Crowns)
- Clothier’s Tote (1500 Crowns)
- Enchanter’s Purse (1500 Crowns)
- Provisioner’s Knapsack (1500 Crowns)
- Woodworker’s Duffel (1500 Crowns)
Note that there's a lot more to my thread than that one suggestion, I just isolated it here because that is really the part that is relevant to this discussion. The full thread can be found here: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162693/limited-bags-crafting-bags-encumbrance-concepts/p1
I think this sort of addition would give players the third option we desire.
Edited by Gidorick on April 26, 2016 11:37PMWhat ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!4 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Do non-subscribers get to test drive the craft bag on the PTS?
I played with it today, and my bank went from 230/240 to 8/240 (I am subscribed). This will free up at least 2 alt mules who carry nothing but gear (and a lot of that gear will be obsolete, since all of my vets will be able to wear the cp160 stuff). Since all the crafting items go directly into the bag, I will need to bank and vendor-break far less frequently
I hope they've offered the ability to try it on the PTS to non-subscribers, because it will sell itself.
(not going to weigh-in on the sub vs. non-sub debate, just here to report that it streamlines the game immensely.)
Yes, on PTS everyone is a sub.#SavePlayer12 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Crafting Material Bags: These bags have enough spaces to hold one stack of every type of material for the specific craft. Only the specific craft’s materials can be placed within the corresponding bag.
- Alchemist Satchel (1500 Crowns)
- Blacksmith’s Haversack (1500 Crowns)
- Clothier’s Tote (1500 Crowns)
- Enchanter’s Purse (1500 Crowns)
- Provisioner’s Knapsack (1500 Crowns)
- Woodworker’s Duffel (1500 Crowns)
This isn't a bad Idea. It's low enough that it doesn't devalue the sub bag, but gives something to people who do not want to Sub. This would still promote the incentive to Sub.
Either this or 1 bag with 100 slots. for 5000 crowns.
#SavePlayer12 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.
Who said any thing about contracts. Where did I say a damn thing about contracts. I want you to go back read every thing I wrote and show me exactly where I said a damn thing about contracts. Oh and by the way... cell phone companies, insurance, Power companies, cable companies, all have a monthly payment.... Not one of what I listed that I pay a month has a contract, but I don't pay that month you can be damn sure I won't have that service... so yeah maybe you should understand what you are talking about before actually talking.Because what they get from me is reliable stable income.... which is what everyone keeps trying to tell you people that these bags promote.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.
A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.
Yeah this is such a load of ***. The company already knows all this. it also knows more subs = more money. There is more of a guarantee that they'll make more money from a small amount of subs than they will from a large amount of B2P. This has been discussed and even linked to articles discussing this time and time again.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.
Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.
The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.
Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.
Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.
Which devalues the sub model.... yet again you fail to see what they are trying to do. They want subs..... subs = more money. There are tons and tons of articles discussing the benefits of draw backs of both all over the internet. Subs = reliable income... proven... time and time again. B2P/F2P is not reliable. 2.2% of B2P/F2P actually buy stuff and support the game. This is not a reliable source of income. And they didn't want this game to go B2P.... xbox forced them to because they wouldn't budge on their monthly cost to access their network.
To be honest, Zos would have been better off scrapping Xbox all together and having the sub for PC/PS since PS already said they'd drop the monthly fee.
Also, I never once said they where taking any thing away. What I'm advocating is that the sub incentive needs to stay. I also read you other post you tried to start and you are completely missing the point. Every thing that is sold on the store that ESO+ people don't have to purchase (even though most of them by now have purchased all the DLC's anyway) devalues ESO+. So why are you advocating that you NEED those bags so bad that they need to take away from the value of subs.
Also, I'm pretty sure your xbox issue with crown store and such is a Microsoft thing and not a ZOS thing. Microsoft can be pretty stingy when it comes to what is allowed and not allowed to be accessed by their network. So blaming ZOS for that is not the right place. More than likely.
Respectfully my comments aren't to upset you or cause argumentative tones. While I'm responding to what's noted by ZOS to a "hot topic" please don't take anything I'm writing as attacking you or anyone else.
A contract in this games terms is a sub.thus my comment
You're entitled to your opinions, I'm just sharing corporate strategies in the markets I have current access to over the last 10-15 years. A contract/subscription as payment is not a sound financial plan. That's fact. Neither of us know what ZOS' actual strategy is but we do know what they've shared. They told us why the sub was removed and told us and shown us repeatedly that they are far out of touch with the console market place.
I'm not lacking vision on what changes we see vs what it could mean fiscally but nothing is leading towards a sub model. I think you're reading too far into it to make an argument. Ppl are dropping subs because DLC is cheaper when purchased outright. Ppl drop subs on consoles cause they aren't getting access to DLC and or crowns but being charged. Ppl are also dropping subs because from the start, feedback was to ZOS that the benefits didn't align.
Further feedback over a year ago was for crafting options. The crafting bag which was datamined loooong ago is a feature that they decided to add and did t know how. They are trying to do this with the sub benefit because the attempt with assistants didn't go over well.
Your tone is fighting against the request for crafting bags to be avilable outside of ESO plus. That and the comment where you suggest a crafting bag is only an incentive if it's exclusive is fighting against those who would like to buy it.
By default if you are against ppl buying it, and for it as ESO plus only you're commenting to argue that only sub customers deserve the crafting bag which is causing an unexcessary argument because if you want to sub and want an incentive, the bag being for sale otherwise doesn't remove your sub incentive. It literally has no impact on you but you suggesting it should be exclusive has a direct impact on everyone else.
Literally that impact is monetarily more than what any sub would lay because unlimited crafting mat slots could be 10-80k in crowns.
That's what makes ppl extremely combatigive and argumentative towards those who have this position.
Your assumptions about the crowns on console are also off base from the ZOS comments and my emails and anyone else's who had to raise it up to Xbox live community managers and ZOS community managers for resolve.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on April 26, 2016 11:51PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
Kattemynte✭✭✭I would love to buy this item if it was in the crown store. However, I see the current system as a way to bring more people to subs. I think that after a few months if there is no real change in the number of subscriptions that they would be better off putting it in the crown store.1 -
Aimora✭✭✭✭✭The bags are amazing - they make looting fun again!!!
Aimora Gilidhren - 50 Hybrid Sorcerer
Aimae Gilihdril - 50Templar Healer
Aimsae Astasia - 50 Templar Tank
Aimellie Halfpenny - 50 Nightblade spinning DPS
Sofae Ethelbur - 50 Dragonknight Tank
Sha'Mash 50 - Nightblade - Former Empress
Saelenor Wilihfren 50 - Templar No. 3
Seliene Harbingerin 50 - DK in training
Aims For Equanimity 10 - Magicka DK
Circle of the Phoenix - Guild Mistress
Elysium - Guild 2nd in Command
Auridon Trading Company - Joint GMLooking for a friendly, progress focused guild check us out at thecircleofthephoenix.gamerlaunch.com/Check me out at Anook anook.com/aimora3 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭We still need the bank raised from 240 slots to 320 slots for now.
It seems like a large jump, but it's only a 10-point increase: 30 slots to 40 slots per character.
If you buy all four available character slot upgrades, that's going to decrease from 30 slots to 20 slots per character at 240. With 320 slots you'd get an average of 26.
WoW gives each character a basic bank of 28 spaces before any upgrades. That roughly what we have maxed out. Bag/mount inventory is okay and probably doesn't need an increase any time in the next five years. But the shared bank created problems that are not okay to shrug away by creating a loophole for just part of the population.signing off2 -
jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭i for one am grateful that subs are getting something worth the 15 a month. honestly there is little to no point in paying other then supporting a game you love. I still spend 100 or so a month on the cash shop as well so there really is no point to being a sub atm. With the crafting bag there will be a good perk that will make having my account subed more worth while.IGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer5 -
GrumpStump✭✭✭As far as I'm concerned, THE BAG BY ITSELF IS WORTH THE $15/MONTH. I'd pay that if it was offered as a standalone. The rest of the sub is now the gravy on top.
GrumpStumpESO+ Subbed until December 20194 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.
Who said any thing about contracts. Where did I say a damn thing about contracts. I want you to go back read every thing I wrote and show me exactly where I said a damn thing about contracts. Oh and by the way... cell phone companies, insurance, Power companies, cable companies, all have a monthly payment.... Not one of what I listed that I pay a month has a contract, but I don't pay that month you can be damn sure I won't have that service... so yeah maybe you should understand what you are talking about before actually talking.Because what they get from me is reliable stable income.... which is what everyone keeps trying to tell you people that these bags promote.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.
A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.
Yeah this is such a load of ***. The company already knows all this. it also knows more subs = more money. There is more of a guarantee that they'll make more money from a small amount of subs than they will from a large amount of B2P. This has been discussed and even linked to articles discussing this time and time again.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.
Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.
The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.
Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.
Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.
Which devalues the sub model.... yet again you fail to see what they are trying to do. They want subs..... subs = more money. There are tons and tons of articles discussing the benefits of draw backs of both all over the internet. Subs = reliable income... proven... time and time again. B2P/F2P is not reliable. 2.2% of B2P/F2P actually buy stuff and support the game. This is not a reliable source of income. And they didn't want this game to go B2P.... xbox forced them to because they wouldn't budge on their monthly cost to access their network.
To be honest, Zos would have been better off scrapping Xbox all together and having the sub for PC/PS since PS already said they'd drop the monthly fee.
Also, I never once said they where taking any thing away. What I'm advocating is that the sub incentive needs to stay. I also read you other post you tried to start and you are completely missing the point. Every thing that is sold on the store that ESO+ people don't have to purchase (even though most of them by now have purchased all the DLC's anyway) devalues ESO+. So why are you advocating that you NEED those bags so bad that they need to take away from the value of subs.
Also, I'm pretty sure your xbox issue with crown store and such is a Microsoft thing and not a ZOS thing. Microsoft can be pretty stingy when it comes to what is allowed and not allowed to be accessed by their network. So blaming ZOS for that is not the right place. More than likely.
Respectfully my comments aren't to upset you or cause argumentative tones. While I'm responding to what's noted by ZOS to a "hot topic" please don't take anything I'm writing as attacking you or anyone else.
A contract in this games terms is a sub.thus my comment
You're entitled to your opinions, I'm just sharing corporate strategies in the markets I have current access to over the last 10-15 years. A contract/subscription as payment is not a sound financial plan. That's fact. Neither of us know what ZOS' actual strategy is but we do know what they've shared. They told us why the sub was removed and told us and shown us repeatedly that they are far out of touch with the console market place.
I'm not lacking vision on what changes we see vs what it could mean fiscally but nothing is leading towards a sub model. I think you're reading too far into it to make an argument. Ppl are dropping subs because DLC is cheaper when purchased outright. Ppl drop subs on consoles cause they aren't getting access to DLC and or crowns but being charged. Ppl are also dropping subs because from the start, feedback was to ZOS that the benefits didn't align.
Further feedback over a year ago was for crafting options. The crafting bag which was datamined loooong ago is a feature that they decided to add and did t know how. They are trying to do this with the sub benefit because the attempt with assistants didn't go over well.
Your tone is fighting against the request for crafting bags to be avilable outside of ESO plus. That and the comment where you suggest a crafting bag is only an incentive if it's exclusive is fighting against those who would like to buy it.
By default if you are against ppl buying it, and for it as ESO plus only you're commenting to argue that only sub customers deserve the crafting bag which is causing an unexcessary argument because if you want to sub and want an incentive, the bag being for sale otherwise doesn't remove your sub incentive. It literally has no impact on you but you suggesting it should be exclusive has a direct impact on everyone else.
Literally that impact is monetarily more than what any sub would lay because unlimited crafting mat slots could be 10-80k in crowns.
That's what makes ppl extremely combatigive and argumentative towards those who have this position.
Your assumptions about the crowns on console are also off base from the ZOS comments and my emails and anyone else's who had to raise it up to Xbox live community managers and ZOS community managers for resolve.
You still don't get it. Doesn't matter how much access to business you have... assuming you actually are someone who deals with this stuff. Even though game companies are businesses the so called system you keep saying everyone is getting away (which they're not) works better than a system where you buy what you want. The so called "fact" you keep trying to use isn't "fact" in the gaming world. There has been a dozen articles written about this and what you say and what they say are opposite. And since they are articles written by actual gaming companies I would venture a guess that they know what they're talking about over a guy who has no experience dealing with the gaming industry.
So no I'm not reading to much into it. You're aren't reading enough into it.
As you stated.... subs are leaving because the subs perks aren't worth it.... yet you still feel that the bags should be available to everyone. And then come up with some preposterous number of what it would cost. Which instead of seeing a thread about the bag being unfair, we'd see a thread about the outrages price forcing ZOS to lower their price to what..... 5k crowns since that's what number is being thrown around constantly. Which again devalues the sub model defeating what ZOS is doing. I don't give a damn if it's in the store or not. What I give a damn about is that ZOS, the creater of the game you play along with others, gets a better source of money that is reliable or more reliable (since you have a problem with that word) over the B2P system.
If you go back to earlier post I've made on these systems you'd see that I've pulled examples from current games and articles to prove that having more subs in a sub option game earns ZOS more money. More money equals more fixes and stability to the game. So in essence what I'm arguing is not so much the bag, but more that I want the game fixed and them having more funds allows them to hire more people who then can dedicate more time to fixing the things you, I, everyone wants fixed. Having the bag as a 1 time purchase defeats what they are trying to do.
I'm done with this subject and there is no point in trying to educate those that refuse to be educated.
#SavePlayer111 -
Taisynn✭✭✭✭✭Look, if you do the math, subscribers pay more overtime; we hardly get anything except maybe 3 days off our research time and barely enough crowns to buy anything real nice. We also lose everything (including DLC) when we stop subscribing.
People who pay for the DLC get that -forever.- It can't be taken from them. You cannot compare yourselves to a subscriber, because you keep everything even if you stop paying.
DLC purchasers get everything forever.
Let subscribers have one thing: an unlimited crafting bag as an incentive to pay more.
You DLC purchasers pay $180 for forever access.
We subscribers pay $180 for something temporary. We stop paying we lose access.
Let us have ONE nice incentive. Your nice incentive is your forever-acess.
LET US SUBSCRIBERS HAVE ONE NICE THING.Edited by Taisynn on April 27, 2016 1:04AMPC - @Taisynn - NA - CP 268
Shizuko url=https://docs.google.com/document/d/1CvZa0PPdzAfUv9h_rd8J2vwc1B4NnZGkPL_n4WfgYfs/edit?usp=sharing"]RP Profile[/url - Bosmer - LVL50 - Nightblade 50 Provisioning, 50 Woodworking, 50 Clothing, 50 Alchemy Ebonhart Pact
Nev'e - Bosmer - LVL 18 - Templar 50 Enchanting Ebonhart Pact
Proud Member of the Guilds:
Rusty Old Dragons (Trade) | Children of Skyrim (RP/EP) | Goldleaf Acquisitions (RP/EP)
Spicy Economics (Trade) | The Jackals (RP/EP)6 -
Zweible✭✭✭Gotta throw my 2 cents worth in here.. Not that it will affect the outcome at all.
I am not a subscriber, but have purchased the game, and all DLC to date. Have also purchased items from the crown store, and talked a few of my friends into playing. So I am not a low value customer by any means.
People have reasons for not subscribing. No credit card, not wanting to be tied down to a recurring payment etc.
That said, this is the 1st item that will make my character less than a subscribing character. The pre-applied crowns, slight gains to experience etc all had viable options that my character could either purchase with crowns or in game gold. It seems that there will be nothing comparable to this being offered.
This is not a threat, but a fact. If this goes in without an option to get the same or similar content without having to set up a recurring payment, then I will be forced to find other online entertainment. I will not be treated as a 2nd class citizen due to payment method.
ZOS.. If it is so important that you have people subscribe vs the pay for your content model, you never should have switched your business model and kept the game subscriber only. I feel as if you have taken the non-subscribers money, and are now changing the rules mid stream. I am sure that there will be many more, who will feel that this is just the beginning and will search out other offerings from other companies.
Zweible
3
This discussion has been closed.