Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

Let me explain this a slightly different way using this comparison. When they changed the payment model to B2P and made subscriptions optional:
1. ZOS did not reduce the amount of gold dropped by mobs.
2. ZOS did not increase research times.
3. ZOS did not reduce XP gains.

Here is what they did do: They started introducing large quantities of new crafting materials with every update, without increasing the maximum amount of bank space available for purchase. They did increase bag space for individual characters, which was helpful. But not account wide bank space (upgrades for which can be purchased for crowns, up to a maximum cap).

The only way to solve an inventory management problem that was intentionally created by the company to inconvenience people is to purchase a subscription. It is the only subscription bonus that was created specifically by doing something to intentionally inconvenience players. And that is distasteful.

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

I didn't think we were arguing points prior to ESO:TU.

We aren't. None of the sub-only benefits I mentioned were available to anyone prior to ESO:TU.

Your complaint was based on the argument that ESO+ players are being offered something that can't be purchased with crowns, and that this was somehow a change in the current paradigm. It is not. Currently (as in right now, today), subs already get access to multiple things that non-subs cannot get at any price. That standard is not changing with the DB update. The only thing that's new is the inclusion of just one additional thing that ESO+ subs will get that non-subs can't.

That's my point, those perks launched WITH ESO:TU, so they were already decided upon before the crown store even existed/launched. So if we're talking from the start of ESO:TU, then yes my point still stands. I still have yet to see a valid reason as to why nonsubs shouldn't have access to these bags. The only "reason" I keep seeing is: ESO+ has sucked forever it's about time they added something to it. So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Cause there is no valid reason (sorry to jump in )

ESO Plus needs something extra (hence the 'Plus'). The crafting bags are definitely the best incentive to be a subscriber, and the preexisting perks of being a sub were a little lackluster.
Hopefully this leads to more game subscribers.

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.

Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?

That's fantastic that ZOS is rewarding subbers, but intentionally making it exclusive to subscriptions is punishing to non-subscribers. I'm not asking to be rewarded with a free crafting bag like subscribers are getting, I'm asking for the option to buy.

The part in which you quoted was out of context as well, it was referring to the viewpoint of many subbers in this thread.

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

I didn't think we were arguing points prior to ESO:TU.

We aren't. None of the sub-only benefits I mentioned were available to anyone prior to ESO:TU.

Your complaint was based on the argument that ESO+ players are being offered something that can't be purchased with crowns, and that this was somehow a change in the current paradigm. It is not. Currently (as in right now, today), subs already get access to multiple things that non-subs cannot get at any price. That standard is not changing with the DB update. The only thing that's new is the inclusion of just one additional thing that ESO+ subs will get that non-subs can't.

That's my point, those perks launched WITH ESO:TU, so they were already decided upon before the crown store even existed/launched. So if we're talking from the start of ESO:TU, then yes my point still stands. I still have yet to see a valid reason as to why nonsubs shouldn't have access to these bags. The only "reason" I keep seeing is: ESO+ has sucked forever it's about time they added something to it. So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?

The crown store and ESO:TU happened at (basically) the same time. The whole ESO game model shifted from being a solely sub-based game (as in, without a sub you get nothing) to an optional-sub game with a cash shop. Just because the cash shop wasn't quite ready to go Day One, doesn't mean it wasn't an integral part of the same plan.

Since ESO:TU's inception, the plan was to offer a-la-carte items in a cash shop to all players, and "rent" certain things to players that were willing to pay a regular sub fee. Some of the items that are rented to ESO+ subs (i.e. the DLCs) are also optionally purchasable, for people that don't want to pay a regular fee. Other things that are "rented" to subs (10% bonuses to gold/exp/research times), are not offered in the cash shop. Likewise, there are many, many items for sale in the cash shop that ESO+ subs can't get without paying for them like everyone else.

Over the last year, many new items have been offered in the cash shop, in an attempt to get players to spend more money there. This may be the first time a new perk has been offered to ESO+ subs, but there's absolutely nothing "unfair" about them choosing to add yet one more perk to the sub. They are just trying to get people to spend more money using their other option.

I'm really quite sorry if players such as you can't see why there's absolutely nothing wrong with what they are doing.

strikeback1247 wrote: »

I still haven't gotten an answer to my simple question:

What are you people hoarding??!!! How did you fill up a full bank and 8 character inventories?!

Everything. Lol

Crafting mats take up a couple of characters
Set pieces take up a couple of characters
Potions, maps, surveys take up another
Clothing takes up another (not armor, clothing)

Inarre wrote: »

Wanderinlost wrote: »

So purchasing the game, subbing for years, buying DLC, spending hundreds on crowns is not enough? Just because you are ESO+ now does not make you in anyway special. It doesn't mean many others have not paid and continue to pay though crowns or make them less of a customer.

Then there are those who purchase every dlc, buy crowns AND sub...

Thaaaaaat's me!!!


GrumpStump

wyhat surprises me is that this post is still going.. perhaps you should play more and debate less ^^

Slurg wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

Let me explain this a slightly different way using this comparison. When they changed the payment model to B2P and made subscriptions optional:
1. ZOS did not reduce the amount of gold dropped by mobs.
2. ZOS did not increase research times.
3. ZOS did not reduce XP gains.

Here is what they did do: They started introducing large quantities of new crafting materials with every update, without increasing the maximum amount of bank space available for purchase. They did increase bag space for individual characters, which was helpful. But not account wide bank space (upgrades for which can be purchased for crowns, up to a maximum cap).

The only way to solve an inventory management problem that was intentionally created by the company to inconvenience people is to purchase a subscription. It is the only subscription bonus that was created specifically by doing something to intentionally inconvenience players. And that is distasteful.

Oh, I won't argue that it's not shady. It totally is, but that's business. But this thread isn't about whether baiting people into paying more money is shady, it's about it being unfair that the bags aren't a purchasable option in the crown store. That's completely unrelated.

As far your point goes, the crown store has had its fair share of shady things too. Every update release new motifs that have to be assembled from 14 pages, which range in difficulty to acquire. Then, a few months later, these full motifs appear on the crown store for real money. How is that not the same thing? Put stuff into the game that people want, make it hard to nearly impossible to get quickly, and then give people a fast and easy solution to get it with real money.

But again, that has nothing to do with the point of this thread.

{Edited for teh grammarz.}

babylon wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Callous2208 wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Divinius wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Prior to Crafting bags: had a choice to buy anything a subscriber had access to, IE a standard

Your argument fell apart at the first sentence.

You could not buy the 10% extra gold.

You could not buy the 10% faster research times.

You could not buy the 10% bonus xp. Sure, you can buy xp scrolls, but so can subscribers. You can't buy the 10% bonus that subs get.

So the "standard" is that there are currently perks that only ESO+ subscribers can get, that non-subs can not get at any price. And this is how it should be, as there needs to be advantages to subscribing, for it to be a viable alternative.

The only reason people are complaining now, is that ESO+ members are finally being given a subscriber-only perk that's actually useful. There has been no change to the standard.

I didn't think we were arguing points prior to ESO:TU.

You can't throw out that line without clarification. Where in his post did he allude to anything pre-ESO:TU?

When he started listing the perks for ESO+. You can see in my follow up posts I explain that line quite clearly, those perks were decided upon prior to crown store launching even if they did launch at the same time.

Ok let's follow your rules - if they're not allowed to add a new item to subscriber benefits then they're not allowed to add a new item to b2p benefits.

How will ZOS make money now :'(

No one said they're not allowed to add a new item to sub benefits, we just want the option to have it without being forced into a subscription in a OPTIONAL subscription based game.

Svalinn wrote: »

wyhat surprises me is that this post is still going.. perhaps you should play more and debate less ^^

I wish I could. I'm at work. I can get away with browsing the internet, but probably not playing ESO... :P