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• PC/Mac: EU megaserver for maintenance – September 9, 22:00 UTC (6:00PM EDT) - September 10, 16:00 UTC (12:00PM EDT) https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/682784
Crating Bag Exclusivity is Unfair
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Gidorick✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
I think this, at its core, is pretty much what we actually have issue with. If we, who have purchased the DLC, sub from here on out we pretty much wasted the money we already spent.
Of course, to get the same access we had to DLC during the past year we would have been subbing all along and would have been spending $15 anyway... so like $180 and we would also have 18000 Crowns.
Did I just defeat that argument?
Damn.
What ESO really needs is an Auction Horse.
That's right... Horse.
Click HERE to discuss.
Want more crazy ideas? Check out my Concept Repository!4 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It is a perk of giving money every month to keep the servers going, to maintenance, to develop new content - regular income that ZOS will get every month. A predictable amount of income for the company.
I'd say a more predictable amount of money is the investment capital Zenimax has received. Venture capital often means something can operate indefinitely so long as there's a yearly percentage return on that investment. More often from passive revenue than active revenue.
You really don't know where your money is going. But moral licensing allows you to believe you're doing something good. Which helps ZOS not because you're supporting them, but because your licensing helps you justify more of that type of spending. Yet spending isn't linear. For all you know, after fees processing your $13.95 went to buy paper towels for the women's restroom at a Zenimax customer service center.
If you knew exactly where the money you're giving was going, you probably wouldn't spend it. That's why there's no individual transparency on spending. You don't expect the guy on eBay to tell you what he's spending your money on. What would a corporation have to break it down for you?signing off1 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
You never owned a Crafting Bag.
facepalmCallous2208 wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
For access to the crafting bag...
lolTommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
You would still own the DLC that you've purchased if you sub.
no **** sherlock lol
why should I buy dlc just to find I have to now rent the dlc in order to gain access to the crafting bag?... so the genius behind the "oh it's an insentive to sub" theory really believes the bag to be worth $15 alone?2 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?
Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.
Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?
...I'm asking for the option to buy.
That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.
Again, how do you not see this?
They do see it. Thats their point.
Its locked behind a sub instead of being available to buy for all customers.
Why would any company not want a customer to be incentivized to spend money on their product?
ESO Plus isn't an exclusive club
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?
I'm following that in your understanding things should flow around this because of you assumption.
Factually, subscriptions aren't bringing them more profits. Lets keep this simple.
If in fact, that was the case, then PC would have a sub and PS4 would differ from PC maybe and Xbox One would be buy2P.
We also know that a subscription is a min of $15/month and some subscribers buy in bulk on PC cause its cheaper. On console we cant so ZOS rely on sub renewals monthly.
So for a profits and projections/retention purposes lets say you're 100% right.
Why lock a crafting back behind a sub only?
Thats like ZOS only allowing DLC access with ESO Plus and not allowing ppl to buy DLC.
If thats their logic, they would be encouraged to let those mindsets and consultants go who took them to this conclusion as it cuts into profit potential.
Would it not be more likely to offer a crown increment purchase as well as ESO Plus?
No. It's nothing like not allowing people to buy DLC - with DLC you can achieve all you want from an area then be done with it, so there's no harm in letting you buy it outright. However with a Crafting Bag only by renting it out in the first place can you make it something people need to continue to rent to retain access to, as it's not anything like an area full of quests you can complete.
If you sell it, then a person can use it endlessly, whereas with a DLC area, people can feel no need to re-visit the area and that wouldn't be as lucrative for renting out as a Crafting Bag will be. They've finally found something that can encourage people to stay subbed, so why would they not use this effectively as an incentive to subscribe (and give them regular payments).
You're arguing semantics here...
DLC
-Content of any kind used in the game....thats everything in the crown store as well as any benefits of any paid DLC including ESO Plus which is DLC because it provides in game content.
So you're telling me that they can sales bank and mount upgrades for bag space....but they should only allow ESO Plus subscribers to have a crafting bag renting it out has more value.
Please stop....read what we are asking...
We are asking that the bag in addition to ESO Plus be available for crowns.
So if that means a higher price or if that means certain access expires after 30-180 days...OK but thats no different than ESO Plus so that argument makes no sense. We want access to use it.
ESO Plus give access to add and remove items. once ESO Plus stops, you don't loose the bag. You just cant add items to it.
If this bag is your understanding of something that will keep people subscribed then your missing the feedback.
One group wants to pay $15 month for it
another group jest wants to buy it outright.....
who is missing out on money. I buy DLC...play it on all 8 characters and soon to be more with more slots so IC...that been a year for a set price. But you're saying a crafting bag needs to be different.....
Well if thats the case, then the whole game needs to be sub only for all DLC including bags and no crowns purchases other than vanity items.
Right?
No.
Bank and bag space and horses/horse upgrades can be bought using gold (in game currency). You don't need to use Crowns to buy bags/bank/horses/horse upgrades. Area DLC (as I explained) can be completed and is also not worth attempting to rent out as a subscription incentive.
A Crafting Bag is new and this is something attractive as a rental, as I explained clearly in my post above.2 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?
Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.
Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?
...I'm asking for the option to buy.
That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.
Again, how do you not see this?
They do see it. Thats their point.
Its locked behind a sub instead of being available to buy for all customers.
Why would any company not want a customer to be incentivized to spend money on their product?
ESO Plus isn't an exclusive club
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?
I'm following that in your understanding things should flow around this because of you assumption.
Factually, subscriptions aren't bringing them more profits. Lets keep this simple.
If in fact, that was the case, then PC would have a sub and PS4 would differ from PC maybe and Xbox One would be buy2P.
We also know that a subscription is a min of $15/month and some subscribers buy in bulk on PC cause its cheaper. On console we cant so ZOS rely on sub renewals monthly.
So for a profits and projections/retention purposes lets say you're 100% right.
Why lock a crafting back behind a sub only?
Thats like ZOS only allowing DLC access with ESO Plus and not allowing ppl to buy DLC.
If thats their logic, they would be encouraged to let those mindsets and consultants go who took them to this conclusion as it cuts into profit potential.
Would it not be more likely to offer a crown increment purchase as well as ESO Plus?
No. It's nothing like not allowing people to buy DLC - with DLC you can achieve all you want from an area then be done with it, so there's no harm in letting you buy it outright. However with a Crafting Bag only by renting it out in the first place can you make it something people need to continue to rent to retain access to, as it's not anything like an area full of quests you can complete.
If you sell it, then a person can use it endlessly, whereas with a DLC area, people can feel no need to re-visit the area and that wouldn't be as lucrative for renting out as a Crafting Bag will be. They've finally found something that can encourage people to stay subbed, so why would they not use this effectively as an incentive to subscribe (and give them regular payments).
You're arguing semantics here...
DLC
-Content of any kind used in the game....thats everything in the crown store as well as any benefits of any paid DLC including ESO Plus which is DLC because it provides in game content.
So you're telling me that they can sales bank and mount upgrades for bag space....but they should only allow ESO Plus subscribers to have a crafting bag renting it out has more value.
Please stop....read what we are asking...
We are asking that the bag in addition to ESO Plus be available for crowns.
So if that means a higher price or if that means certain access expires after 30-180 days...OK but thats no different than ESO Plus so that argument makes no sense. We want access to use it.
ESO Plus give access to add and remove items. once ESO Plus stops, you don't loose the bag. You just cant add items to it.
If this bag is your understanding of something that will keep people subscribed then your missing the feedback.
One group wants to pay $15 month for it
another group jest wants to buy it outright.....
who is missing out on money. I buy DLC...play it on all 8 characters and soon to be more with more slots so IC...that been a year for a set price. But you're saying a crafting bag needs to be different.....
Well if thats the case, then the whole game needs to be sub only for all DLC including bags and no crowns purchases other than vanity items.
Right?
No.
Bank and bag space and horses/horse upgrades can be bought using gold (in game currency). You don't need to use Crowns to buy bags/bank/horses/horse upgrades. Area DLC (as I explained) can be completed and is also not worth attempting to rent out as a subscription incentive.
A Crafting Bag is new and this is something attractive as a rental, as I explained clearly in my post above.
I don't think you understand, we don't give a *** what ZOS' reason for making it sub only is, because it still is unfair towards non subs because of how strong the item is.
2 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
I think this, at its core, is pretty much what we actually have issue with. If we, who have purchased the DLC, sub from here on out we pretty much wasted the money we already spent.
Of course, to get the same access we had to DLC during the past year we would have been subbing all along and would have been spending $15 anyway... so like $180 and we would also have 18000 Crowns.
Did I just defeat that argument?
Damn.
I'm afraid you did... I was attempting to lead them to the obvious but honestly it's hard bloody work lol0 -
Dahkoht✭✭✭✭✭Just sell the crafting bags for 200.00 lifetime fee for those who want to whine and gnash about it being a sub only perk and saying it has to be in the crown store also.
Give them exactly what they want.
There's no way they would then whine about the price is there ?
3 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭clocksstoppe wrote: »I don't think you understand, we don't give a *** what ZOS' reason for making it sub only is, because it still is unfair towards non subs because of how strong the item is.
Well too bad then you aren't the one who works at ZOS and makes the decisions, or things could have been how you wanted them.5 -
clocksstoppe✭✭✭✭✭
✭clocksstoppe wrote: »I don't think you understand, we don't give a *** what ZOS' reason for making it sub only is, because it still is unfair towards non subs because of how strong the item is.
Well too bad then you aren't the one who works at ZOS and makes the decisions, or things could have been how you wanted them.
Well thankfully you aren't that person either. There is still hope for them to change this controversial decision.
[Edit to remove insulting content]Edited by [Deleted User] on April 26, 2016 6:45PM0 -
Mercymae✭✭Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.1 -
Zyle✭✭✭✭✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
I think this, at its core, is pretty much what we actually have issue with. If we, who have purchased the DLC, sub from here on out we pretty much wasted the money we already spent.
Of course, to get the same access we had to DLC during the past year we would have been subbing all along and would have been spending $15 anyway... so like $180 and we would also have 18000 Crowns.
Did I just defeat that argument?
Damn.
Great point actually, if they had some sort of modular system that decreased the monthly on already owned DLCs that still had a base rate then it would still be a win for ZOS and would make DLC owners more willing to subscribe. Currently my biggest misunderstanding is why they chose something so useful to try and incentivize subscriptions with. They knew this was going to be an issue on some level.
676 CP
Zyle - LVL50 Stamina Nightblade - Former Emp AS - VMA Clear (Flawless)
Joven - LVL50 Hybrid Templar
Adion - LVL50 Stamina DK
Radac - LVL50 Magicka Sorcerer
Vanikath - LVL50 Magicka DK2 -
Dahkoht✭✭✭✭✭Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.
You are trying to introduce logic and sound economic practices to a whining , bratty , I deserve what I want for what I want to pay for it , crowd that just cannot grasp such concepts.Edited by Dahkoht on April 26, 2016 6:38PM10 -
Tommy1979AtWar✭✭✭✭Just sell the crafting bags for 200.00 lifetime fee for those who want to whine and gnash about it being a sub only perk and saying it has to be in the crown store also.
Give them exactly what they want.
There's no way they would then whine about the price is there ?
Sure... just get zos to gimme back the $365 back I've already spent through B2P and I'll happily pay that as a lifetime fee while you lot continue to pay monthly
2 -
Zyle✭✭✭✭✭Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.
You are trying to introduce logic and sound economic practices to a whining , bratty , I deserve what I want for what I want to pay for it , crowd that just cannot grasp such concepts.
"They don't agree with what I think, they must be whiny, bratty and entitled"
Sound logic.
676 CP
Zyle - LVL50 Stamina Nightblade - Former Emp AS - VMA Clear (Flawless)
Joven - LVL50 Hybrid Templar
Adion - LVL50 Stamina DK
Radac - LVL50 Magicka Sorcerer
Vanikath - LVL50 Magicka DK4 -
Callous2208✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
You never owned a Crafting Bag.
facepalmCallous2208 wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
For access to the crafting bag...
lolTommy1979AtWar wrote: »Why should those of us who have bought into the B2P model and have already purchased the past dlcs now rent what we already own and what we've already paid for?
You would still own the DLC that you've purchased if you sub.
no **** sherlock lol
why should I buy dlc just to find I have to now rent the dlc in order to gain access to the crafting bag?... so the genius behind the "oh it's an insentive to sub" theory really believes the bag to be worth $15 alone?
Yep. Probably underselling it, judging by some of the things I've read in this thread.1 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Grayphilosophy wrote: »Reading through these replies, many of the (what I assume to be) subscribers seem happy about getting a crafting bag, while the (what I assume to be) non-subscribers aren't very happy to not be able to get one.
I see subscribers arguing that it's a good addition, or perk, because the current subscribtion bonuses aren't that spectacular. And that the non-subscribers should not complain.
Without calling anyone out, there are even some replies saying that non-subscribers just want everything for free, and that subscribers at least pay to support the game...
I did some math, I could be wrong, but I still did some math.
Currently, if you stay subbed using the lowest value model (30 days sub for $15), you gain access to approximately $88 or 9.720 Crowns worth of content/bonuses (using the max value $50, 5500 Crown pack as comparison, about 110 Crowns per dollar).
Including:
- all the DLC's (with possibly more to come)
- exp bonus
- monthly crowns to spend
Not including
- crafting, trait research and gold boost
Compared to not being subbed and having purchased no crowns or DLC's separately.
If we don't include the DLC's in this, you still gain access to ~$20 or 2.220 crowns worth of bonuses every month, not including the crafting, trait research and gold boosts.
In conclusion: Subscribers and non-subscribers are incomparable. Saying ESO+ doesn't have it's advantages is very incorrect. You'd have to purchase a $50 crown pack every ~2,4 months to get the same value as the lowest value subscribtion model, and you still wouldn't be able to get a crafting bag.
Just give us the damn option to purchase a crafting bag in the crown store. Even a lesser crafting bag would do.
Irrelevant. Subscribers are of higher value to the business model. More predictable and steady income is premium and increased the value of the IP.
As such it is both rational and logical to offer such a reward ONLY to subs to encourage subscribing.7 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?
Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.
Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?
...I'm asking for the option to buy.
That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.
Again, how do you not see this?
They do see it. Thats their point.
Its locked behind a sub instead of being available to buy for all customers.
Why would any company not want a customer to be incentivized to spend money on their product?
ESO Plus isn't an exclusive club
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?
I'm following that in your understanding things should flow around this because of you assumption.
Factually, subscriptions aren't bringing them more profits. Lets keep this simple.
If in fact, that was the case, then PC would have a sub and PS4 would differ from PC maybe and Xbox One would be buy2P.
We also know that a subscription is a min of $15/month and some subscribers buy in bulk on PC cause its cheaper. On console we cant so ZOS rely on sub renewals monthly.
So for a profits and projections/retention purposes lets say you're 100% right.
Why lock a crafting back behind a sub only?
Thats like ZOS only allowing DLC access with ESO Plus and not allowing ppl to buy DLC.
If thats their logic, they would be encouraged to let those mindsets and consultants go who took them to this conclusion as it cuts into profit potential.
Would it not be more likely to offer a crown increment purchase as well as ESO Plus?
No. It's nothing like not allowing people to buy DLC - with DLC you can achieve all you want from an area then be done with it, so there's no harm in letting you buy it outright. However with a Crafting Bag only by renting it out in the first place can you make it something people need to continue to rent to retain access to, as it's not anything like an area full of quests you can complete.
If you sell it, then a person can use it endlessly, whereas with a DLC area, people can feel no need to re-visit the area and that wouldn't be as lucrative for renting out as a Crafting Bag will be. They've finally found something that can encourage people to stay subbed, so why would they not use this effectively as an incentive to subscribe (and give them regular payments).
You're arguing semantics here...
DLC
-Content of any kind used in the game....thats everything in the crown store as well as any benefits of any paid DLC including ESO Plus which is DLC because it provides in game content.
So you're telling me that they can sales bank and mount upgrades for bag space....but they should only allow ESO Plus subscribers to have a crafting bag renting it out has more value.
Please stop....read what we are asking...
We are asking that the bag in addition to ESO Plus be available for crowns.
So if that means a higher price or if that means certain access expires after 30-180 days...OK but thats no different than ESO Plus so that argument makes no sense. We want access to use it.
ESO Plus give access to add and remove items. once ESO Plus stops, you don't loose the bag. You just cant add items to it.
If this bag is your understanding of something that will keep people subscribed then your missing the feedback.
One group wants to pay $15 month for it
another group jest wants to buy it outright.....
who is missing out on money. I buy DLC...play it on all 8 characters and soon to be more with more slots so IC...that been a year for a set price. But you're saying a crafting bag needs to be different.....
Well if thats the case, then the whole game needs to be sub only for all DLC including bags and no crowns purchases other than vanity items.
Right?
No.
Bank and bag space and horses/horse upgrades can be bought using gold (in game currency). You don't need to use Crowns to buy bags/bank/horses/horse upgrades. Area DLC (as I explained) can be completed and is also not worth attempting to rent out as a subscription incentive.
A Crafting Bag is new and this is something attractive as a rental, as I explained clearly in my post above.
DLC is not one and done.
ALL DLC offered has dailies and repeatable items for one or more characters. Its literally the exact same concept but you want to say its different because you want to make an exclusivity argument....which is basically like segregation of customers. Why would any company do that on purpose?
ESO Plus is literally from a profit standpoint no different than buying 1500 crowns.
Its at most $15 every 30 days plus tax
-***IMPORTANT****
People knowingly choose crown packs over ESO Plus and are happy. They just dont want a sub to manage and are OK missing out on the existing benefits but do want a crafting bag.
Here is what you're missing.
1. Everyone isnt going to sub to ESO Plus who buys crowns regardless of the incentive.
2. Those who don't sub who are wanting the bag....arent going to sub either way...but they are point blank saying I will flat out buy the thing. Maybe a range exists for each individual but ppl spend 5k in crowns for a single motif...2500 - 4k for a single DLC with a mount and a pet. Why wouldn't you sale a crafting bag to them?
When a company begins to offer products and block or exclude customers they are cutting their profit potential.
I think you all want to make an argument that ESO Plus is better financially for ZOS to make yourselves stand out or be placed in a different category but you're no different than any other customer.Some spend none, some spend some and some spend more. Regardless of the method, you and everyone else is a customer.
Programs have this way of making certain personality types feel belonged and thats a business strategy that holds true still today...but that has nothing to do with cutting potential customers out.Edited by NewBlacksmurf on April 26, 2016 6:46PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5014 -
Acharnor✭✭✭✭Man - I don't get this debate. This benefit is a great incentive to reward customer loyalty for maintaining an ongoing subscribtion. I think it's great. And no, I am not subbing at the moment. But is is making me think about it again. There has to be incentives beyond what it is now - I stopped largely b/c the benefits were pretty small really. When you buy crowns and DLC you support the game but you get the service you paid for - done. Committing to an ongoing sub is a form of support of another order and you should get something sweet as a result.Celebrate for life is short but sweet for certain.9 -
Acrolas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭who have purchased the DLC
Except you never purchase anything. Every transaction is legally a rental of services, whether you rent per month through a subscription or rent for the lifetime of the game through crowns.
Nobody owns anything in this game. And that's the relationship I have with it. I can have fun throwing around ideas on the forum for my own devices, but I'm such a tiny stakeholder that I'll never fool myself into believing I'm a special snowflake.
I'm just a tourist in a distant world.
Bottled water: 3000 crowns.
Bottled water in fancy container: 5000 crowns.signing off5 -
babylon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?
Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.
Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?
...I'm asking for the option to buy.
That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.
Again, how do you not see this?
They do see it. Thats their point.
Its locked behind a sub instead of being available to buy for all customers.
Why would any company not want a customer to be incentivized to spend money on their product?
ESO Plus isn't an exclusive club
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?
I'm following that in your understanding things should flow around this because of you assumption.
Factually, subscriptions aren't bringing them more profits. Lets keep this simple.
If in fact, that was the case, then PC would have a sub and PS4 would differ from PC maybe and Xbox One would be buy2P.
We also know that a subscription is a min of $15/month and some subscribers buy in bulk on PC cause its cheaper. On console we cant so ZOS rely on sub renewals monthly.
So for a profits and projections/retention purposes lets say you're 100% right.
Why lock a crafting back behind a sub only?
Thats like ZOS only allowing DLC access with ESO Plus and not allowing ppl to buy DLC.
If thats their logic, they would be encouraged to let those mindsets and consultants go who took them to this conclusion as it cuts into profit potential.
Would it not be more likely to offer a crown increment purchase as well as ESO Plus?
No. It's nothing like not allowing people to buy DLC - with DLC you can achieve all you want from an area then be done with it, so there's no harm in letting you buy it outright. However with a Crafting Bag only by renting it out in the first place can you make it something people need to continue to rent to retain access to, as it's not anything like an area full of quests you can complete.
If you sell it, then a person can use it endlessly, whereas with a DLC area, people can feel no need to re-visit the area and that wouldn't be as lucrative for renting out as a Crafting Bag will be. They've finally found something that can encourage people to stay subbed, so why would they not use this effectively as an incentive to subscribe (and give them regular payments).
You're arguing semantics here...
DLC
-Content of any kind used in the game....thats everything in the crown store as well as any benefits of any paid DLC including ESO Plus which is DLC because it provides in game content.
So you're telling me that they can sales bank and mount upgrades for bag space....but they should only allow ESO Plus subscribers to have a crafting bag renting it out has more value.
Please stop....read what we are asking...
We are asking that the bag in addition to ESO Plus be available for crowns.
So if that means a higher price or if that means certain access expires after 30-180 days...OK but thats no different than ESO Plus so that argument makes no sense. We want access to use it.
ESO Plus give access to add and remove items. once ESO Plus stops, you don't loose the bag. You just cant add items to it.
If this bag is your understanding of something that will keep people subscribed then your missing the feedback.
One group wants to pay $15 month for it
another group jest wants to buy it outright.....
who is missing out on money. I buy DLC...play it on all 8 characters and soon to be more with more slots so IC...that been a year for a set price. But you're saying a crafting bag needs to be different.....
Well if thats the case, then the whole game needs to be sub only for all DLC including bags and no crowns purchases other than vanity items.
Right?
No.
Bank and bag space and horses/horse upgrades can be bought using gold (in game currency). You don't need to use Crowns to buy bags/bank/horses/horse upgrades. Area DLC (as I explained) can be completed and is also not worth attempting to rent out as a subscription incentive.
A Crafting Bag is new and this is something attractive as a rental, as I explained clearly in my post above.
snip
All I'm getting from this hoo haa is people want it so bad they're gagging for it...if so - sub.
Done.4 -
ZOS_AlanGadminWe appreciate all of the constructive feedback in this debate. Unfortunately, this discussion has gotten very tense and inflammatory, and this has continued despite an in-thread warning by the moderators.
It's fine to disagree with someone, but it's important to keep any disagreement or criticism respectful and constructive. In particular, it's important to criticize someone's idea, rather than the person themselves. Given how heated this discussion has gotten, we also ask that everyone make extra effort to help decrease the tension. If the problems persist, warnings will be sent to anyone who was misbehaving, being disruptive or unconstructive, or otherwise breaking the forum rules.Edited by ZOS_AlanG on April 26, 2016 9:12PMForum Rules | Promoting Constructive Discussion | Code of Conduct | Terms of Service | Help Site
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Wanderinlost✭✭✭
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?It is a perk of giving money every month to keep the servers going, to maintenance, to develop new content - regular income that ZOS will get every month. A predictable amount of income for the company.
See the whole problem with this thinking is that everyone would subscribe and stay subscribe to get this feature. For me I put inventory at a high value, in a game like Black Desert I have already spent over $200 in a few months upgrading warehouses and inventory and will spend more in the future. A game like Path of Exile Ive bought about 100 tabs over the years, and those are just 2 of many games. ESO I would have already spent money as well upgrading bank and horse. But I won't rent, as renting is a failed, counter productive business model which has lead to many bad design and development decisions throughout the MMO sphere *cough* WoW... Still ESO+ is already one of the highest value MMO subscriptions in the industry even without the crafting bag. If ESO is your main game and you play a lot and expect to be playing for a long time it is worth it. If you expect to be playing a lot short term then it is worth it just for the crowns you will get. However if you are like me a nomad who plays on average 10 hours per month than being beholden to a subscription is not worth it in more than 2 or 3 games at any given time game, thus the choice to primarily support games with flexible business models. ESO was one of those games until they launch this. Does it mean I will quit ESO? No, I will still play but instead of spending over $100 a year upgrading and buying DLC it will be one of the handful of games I sub to a few months per year at most. ESO does not live in a vacuum, there are more games out there, and putting features behind a paywall is a big step towards diminishing accessibility. It is diminishing one of the strongest and most desirable virtues it has going for it. That crafting bag would be a guaranteed sale, and go a long way toward cementing my already strong loyalty to this game. Prior to this I could have easily said I would be purchasing DLC right up until the day they shut the servers down, even if that day was 10 or 20+ years from now. Although if I have to subscribe? No way. Not going to happen. Now I can't say if I will even have this game on my hard drive a few years from now, just like the handful of other sub games that I still sometime play.Edited by Wanderinlost on April 26, 2016 10:04PM2 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭.NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: ».NewBlacksmurf wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »So why does the non-sub player have to be punished because ESO+ is lacking?
Nobody is punishing you, and nobody is rewarding you for not subbing. People are just being rewarded for subbing and given a further reason to continue subbing.
Making this item a b2p item would give people no reason to continue subbing, how do you not understand this?
...I'm asking for the option to buy.
That would remove the entire point of this bag - to make people require a subscription to retain access to the extra space.
Again, how do you not see this?
They do see it. Thats their point.
Its locked behind a sub instead of being available to buy for all customers.
Why would any company not want a customer to be incentivized to spend money on their product?
ESO Plus isn't an exclusive club
Simply put - they have figured out they will make more money renting the option by making people require a subscription to retain access to it, than they will by selling it outright.
Are you beginning to follow this yet?
I'm following that in your understanding things should flow around this because of you assumption.
Factually, subscriptions aren't bringing them more profits. Lets keep this simple.
If in fact, that was the case, then PC would have a sub and PS4 would differ from PC maybe and Xbox One would be buy2P.
We also know that a subscription is a min of $15/month and some subscribers buy in bulk on PC cause its cheaper. On console we cant so ZOS rely on sub renewals monthly.
So for a profits and projections/retention purposes lets say you're 100% right.
Why lock a crafting back behind a sub only?
Thats like ZOS only allowing DLC access with ESO Plus and not allowing ppl to buy DLC.
If thats their logic, they would be encouraged to let those mindsets and consultants go who took them to this conclusion as it cuts into profit potential.
Would it not be more likely to offer a crown increment purchase as well as ESO Plus?
No. It's nothing like not allowing people to buy DLC - with DLC you can achieve all you want from an area then be done with it, so there's no harm in letting you buy it outright. However with a Crafting Bag only by renting it out in the first place can you make it something people need to continue to rent to retain access to, as it's not anything like an area full of quests you can complete.
If you sell it, then a person can use it endlessly, whereas with a DLC area, people can feel no need to re-visit the area and that wouldn't be as lucrative for renting out as a Crafting Bag will be. They've finally found something that can encourage people to stay subbed, so why would they not use this effectively as an incentive to subscribe (and give them regular payments).
You're arguing semantics here...
DLC
-Content of any kind used in the game....thats everything in the crown store as well as any benefits of any paid DLC including ESO Plus which is DLC because it provides in game content.
So you're telling me that they can sales bank and mount upgrades for bag space....but they should only allow ESO Plus subscribers to have a crafting bag renting it out has more value.
Please stop....read what we are asking...
We are asking that the bag in addition to ESO Plus be available for crowns.
So if that means a higher price or if that means certain access expires after 30-180 days...OK but thats no different than ESO Plus so that argument makes no sense. We want access to use it.
ESO Plus give access to add and remove items. once ESO Plus stops, you don't loose the bag. You just cant add items to it.
If this bag is your understanding of something that will keep people subscribed then your missing the feedback.
One group wants to pay $15 month for it
another group jest wants to buy it outright.....
who is missing out on money. I buy DLC...play it on all 8 characters and soon to be more with more slots so IC...that been a year for a set price. But you're saying a crafting bag needs to be different.....
Well if thats the case, then the whole game needs to be sub only for all DLC including bags and no crowns purchases other than vanity items.
Right?
No.
Bank and bag space and horses/horse upgrades can be bought using gold (in game currency). You don't need to use Crowns to buy bags/bank/horses/horse upgrades. Area DLC (as I explained) can be completed and is also not worth attempting to rent out as a subscription incentive.
A Crafting Bag is new and this is something attractive as a rental, as I explained clearly in my post above.
snip
All I'm getting from this hoo haa is people want it so bad they're gagging for it...if so - sub.
Done.
It's not that ppl want it bad. They asked to be able to buy absent of a sub.
Let's not add invalid assumptions.
-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5012 -
Riggsy✭✭✭✭I do think subscribers deserve perks not available in the crown store for their continued loyalty though Im not saying this bag should be one (still 50/50 on it tbh). I also believe there will always be arguments over the exclusivity of said perks, even if its just a mount or costume.
However,
As a few people pointed out the root problem is the current business model. Why would someone who spent crowns on the DLC then subscribe at full price when they get very little new stuff in return, alternatively why should someone who has subscribed for a whole year not be able to keep access to the DLC expansions released in that year after having paid $180. The model needs to be reworked to incentive both sides.
Either allow people who bought the DLC subscription access at a reduced cost and give current subscribers DLC content if they have subscribed for a period of time or.... do away with the subscription system altogether (or conversely reinstate it to sub only, yeah I know haha).MMAGA - We Made Medium Armor Great AgainEvasion: Casting this ability and its morphs now requires that you wear 5 pieces of Medium Armor.
Woe Biden - Mule
Donald Thump - Mule
M'aiq Pence - Mule5 -
Xundiin✭✭✭✭Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.
You are trying to introduce logic and sound economic practices to a whining , bratty , I deserve what I want for what I want to pay for it , crowd that just cannot grasp such concepts.
"They don't agree with what I think, they must be whiny, bratty and entitled"
Sound logic.
It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."
The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.
And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty BS.Edited by Xundiin on April 26, 2016 10:54PM#SavePlayer15 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.
You are trying to introduce logic and sound economic practices to a whining , bratty , I deserve what I want for what I want to pay for it , crowd that just cannot grasp such concepts.
"They don't agree with what I think, they must be whiny, bratty and entitled"
Sound logic.
It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."
The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.
And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty BS.
This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.
The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.
A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.
ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.
Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.
The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.
Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.
Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.
Edited by NewBlacksmurf on April 26, 2016 11:05PM-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5013 -
scorpiodog✭✭✭✭✭I can live without crafting bags.
We don't have them now, after all.
But they could save people from logging in and out numerous times to move crafting materials between characters and the bank.
So a bonus, but only a time saver, not a game winner.1 -
NewBlacksmurf✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭scorpiodog wrote: »I can live without crafting bags.
We don't have them now, after all.
But they could save people from logging in and out numerous times to move crafting materials between characters and the bank.
So a bonus, but only a time saver, not a game winner.
Actually may reduce server lag and fix Cyrodil by accident. Maybe it's worth giving everyone it for 1 weekend to test-PC (PTS)/Xbox One: NewBlacksmurf
~<{[50]}>~ looks better than *5010 -
Rex-Umbra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Should be able to buy the craft bag for 5000 crowns.Xbox GT: Rex Umbrah
GM of IMPERIUM since 2015.0
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