AoE Caps Discussion
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Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭For the gap closers, it's not multiple. A single use of Ambush causes the player to be mini stunned.
The mini stun on gap closers isn't really the issue. It serves a purpose in the existing combat system - it may not have been the best solution, but....
The issue is the spamming of ambush to create an effective perma-stun. That is only really an issue with ambush because it doesn't have a minimum distance.
Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/2 -
Darnathian✭✭✭✭✭
✭Thanks for spending so much time and effort writing up detailed posts on this topic. PvP players are very passionate and seeing passionate fans enjoy the game is the reason we get up in the morning.
We want PvP fights to be tactical, involving player positioning as a key element of engagements. We don’t want 2 huge masses of players mindlessly bumping into each other while spamming 1 ability. Part of the issue currently is that damaging PBAoE abilities are very powerful, and there are not a lot of effective options to combat this strategy from range. The two avenues of attack we are perusing are buffing siege weapons and investigating making ranged abilities more effective at damaging large groups of players.
Wheeler is making significant adjustments to siege weapons. You can view and comment on these new changes here. As siege already hits an unlimited number of targets and has an effective cooldown, it’s the perfect tool to get players to spread out.
On the ability side we’ve got a number of changes planned. PBAoE abilities such as Steel Tornado and purge are much too powerful and cause players to want to stack together to make sure they can all hit the same targets and be purged by the same ally. We’ll be reducing the radius of Steel Tornado so it’s not so much more effective at dealing AoE damage relative to the other abilities in the game. Also, we are reducing the initial damage of Magicka Detonation so it’s less effective vs a single target. To compensate, both the bonus damage per target and the max size of this bonus is increasing. In addition to this we’re looking into making other ranged class abilities deal effective AoE damage.
These modifications are substantial, and we don’t want to stack too many changes at once. We need to be able to measure the impact and performance changes. We’re going to continue working on performance in Cyrodiil - Fixing the lag is something everyone wants to fix.
Here are some additional issues we’re considering based on your feedback from this thread:
• Cone abilities are much harder to hit with than a standard circle, but aren't more effective
• Multiple gap closers used on the same target means they can’t move
• Cammo hunter stealth attacks can double proc, killing targets very quickly
• Force pulse counts as 3 reflects against Reflective Scales
• Retreating Maneuver buff sticks on healers while they are casting
• XP to advance Assault and Support skill lines is very high
Please continue to keep the posts constructive. Productive discussions are best for the players and the devs Top posts on both sides of this debate: Zheg #93 and Sublime #60.
Thanks but you didn't mention anything regarding removal of aoe caps.. which ironically was the reason you created this thread. I hope i am wrong but this gave me the impression that you are not removing aoe caps
ah no Mr Wroble. this is the top post. please see title of thread. and talk about that. no wonder this is where pvp is at right now. it is fairly obvious when the aoe cap went in it went something like this
Wow. look at all this negative feedback a out puting this in. oh wait, look at the pretty birdy. what were we ralking about? whatever. nevermind. the mortals opinion doesnt matter anyway. we got thier money already anyways.Edited by Darnathian on December 5, 2015 1:47PM2 -
Yuke✭✭✭✭✭For the gap closers, it's not multiple. A single use of Ambush causes the player to be mini stunned.
The mini stun on gap closers isn't really the issue. It serves a purpose in the existing combat system - it may not have been the best solution, but....
The issue is the spamming of ambush to create an effective perma-stun. That is only really an issue with ambush because it doesn't have a minimum distance.
No it is an issue with every gapcloser there is, because it prevents an effective kiting (or even kiting at all).5 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rune_Relic wrote: »If the AoE cap was 1 there would be no lag... so again whats your point ?
That ! precisely my point.
Let's try this: suppress multiple targets on aoe and let's check for lag on a test server for a week.
Wouldn't that be great ? one spell, one hit, getting creative with spell combination and assists instead of spamming aoe ?as Pryda himself shows and perfectly knows that without AoE cap, such ballgroup could be wiped by a 6 man group.
Of course you could, but you are missing my point: even without cap spamballs would stack up based on the assumption their damage output would be superior to their opponents and instant kill them (which would be the case with pugs). Of course it would have less impact with your kind of group or ours, sure you could outsmart/outdamage them. But not the vast majority of groups. So would it be good for a majority of players... I doubt it. One thing is sure... the day they take aoe caps off, we also would be obliged to stop mono targeting, and go for that shi.tty aoe meta...
And lag would begin long before they actually hit any opponents:
atm they actually move spam casting tornadoe (just like pryda did btw) also to detect hidden opposition.
So the lag is there all along.
I think it is worth going a bit more into details at this point.Large aoe lagballs will overstack aoe in a trial to outdamage other aoelagballs...
Your assumption (how I understand it):
Two AOE raids trying to kill each other, a "small" one (20) and a big one (40). The large groups still wind due to higher numbers. (Please correct me if either of this is wrong)
No... I don't care wether they win or not: both groups still lag due to aoe stack even before impact: that's what we experience atm with some groups: ping rising to 500+ while they still don't have made any contact... as soon as they start to chain cast. So As I wrote before, I doubt cap ot not cap would solve lag.
They will begin to cast while moving as most of these groups do and drown everyone in lag, wiping any pugs or "pve level" organized groups in their way. Of course smaller organized structure will aim at outsmarting/outdamage them with instant kill tactics, better coordination and ultimates...and would most probably succeed. But in the meanwhile it would be lagland for everyone... again and again.
And I absolutely agree with you...
...why wouldn't you stack even more with no AoE caps when you have this...
compuversal.com/eso/aoe-caps.pdf
... to look forward too ?
Many more targets Hit.
Much greater area of effect.
Much greater damage stacking.
The ability to carpet bomb a whole area with RED.
Who does no AoE caps really benefit the most ?
With a 4 man group I can synchronize an attack on a breach to defend it when 60 players pore through.
I can hit all 60 ...and every one of them will receive 4x damage....which may or may not be enough to one shot most of them.
With a 24 man group I can sync an attack for 24x damage to all 60 players that burst through the breach at the same time.
All of which are guaranteed to be dead with an instant 1 shot.
There is no skill here with unlimited AoE caps.
Its just stack numbers and hit the IWIN button... and enjoy the lag while you wait for server dump.Edited by Rune_Relic on December 5, 2015 2:21PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭No it is an issue with every gapcloser there is, because it prevents an effective kiting (or even kiting at all).
It's an "exploitable" issue only with the SOLE gap closer that can be spammed.
The mini-stun was introduced exactly to provide a counter to kiting. With skill lag it was intended (and mostly works) as a way for melee classes to damage kiters (by having a short window after a gap closer to fire a melee skill). That's a good thing. Perma-stun from spamming it is not.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/1 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭
We've discussed this at length in numerous threads. My opinion is that with targeted heals and purge, plus the ability to have multiple more "specialized" ultimates (barrier, magma shell, negate) slotted by different party members, Blob groups would still be basically invulnerable to attack by smaller groups even without the AoE cap.
The main concern I would have from removing the cap is the effect on lag. If it does little to nothing to break of the Blobs (which I don't think it would), then it would mean significantly greater server load from calculating (and communicating) the addition damage/effects/targets.
I think the combination of siege changes, with the skill changes/nerfs mentioned, have a greater likelihood of fixing the current issues with Blob group invulnerability and the lag they create/worsen.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/1 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Wrobel
Thanks for the post. Personally, it's nice to see you recognize the issue with the current Blob v. Blob PvP gameplay.
As for AoE caps, I think people overestimate the difference the removal would make in countering such groups. And also ignore the issues with complete cap removal.
Its not about what aoe caps do or dont do in the game.
Its about what they represent: unfair, unbalanced gameplay with mechanics favoring quantity over quality.
It stands for everything that makes pvp unintersting in my personal opinion.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 5010 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭Its not about what aoe caps do or dont do in the game.
Its about what they represent: unfair, unbalanced gameplay with mechanics favoring quantity over quality.
It stands for everything that makes pvp unintersting in my personal opinion.
For me it should be first and foremost about making the game playable. The system can be theoretically perfect, but if nothing works because the ping is consistently 500+ near the Blobs, well...
As for "unfair" etc. when they introduce friendly fire to balance AoE damage abilities, we can talk about fair.
Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
Jhunn✭✭✭✭✭
✭We disagree and I'm really not going to use more time arguing for the AOE caps removal, because it won't change a [snip] thing apparantly. You'll have to explain this, though, to me:
How? Do you even know how AOE caps currently work?The main concern I would have from removing the cap is the effect on lag. If it does little to nothing to break of the Blobs (which I don't think it would), then it would mean significantly greater server load from calculating (and communicating) the addition damage/effects/targets.
[edited for profanity bypass]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2024 12:59PMGave up.6 -
Yuke✭✭✭✭✭No it is an issue with every gapcloser there is, because it prevents an effective kiting (or even kiting at all).
It's an "exploitable" issue only with the SOLE gap closer that can be spammed.
The mini-stun was introduced exactly to provide a counter to kiting. With skill lag it was intended (and mostly works) as a way for melee classes to damage kiters (by having a short window after a gap closer to fire a melee skill). That's a good thing. Perma-stun from spamming it is not.
No1 is going to say something against gap closer per se but IF you manage to get out of max range, then you SHOULD be able to disengange from your target (mostly targets).
Its called CLOSING the GAP and not, PREVENTING to BUILD a GAP.
I dont understand how you can even defend such an unfair method...but well, you are also for AoE caps, so i guess it figures...4 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭How? Do you even know how AOE caps currently work?
Yes. Do you understand the how the server calculations and communications work?Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Its not about what aoe caps do or dont do in the game.
Its about what they represent: unfair, unbalanced gameplay with mechanics favoring quantity over quality.
It stands for everything that makes pvp unintersting in my personal opinion.
For me it should be first and foremost about making the game playable. The system can be theoretically perfect, but if nothing works because the ping is consistently 500+ near the Blobs, well...
As for "unfair" etc. when they introduce friendly fire to balance AoE damage abilities, we can talk about fair.
What has friendly fire to do with that. Do you want smart dmg too and aoe healing for enemies?<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 506 -
Jhunn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I go in with steel tornado and hit 60 people:
1) I hit 6 with 100% damage. Next 24 will receive 50% damage. Final 30% will get 25% damage.
2) I hit 60 people with full damage.
Which do you think requires the most calculations?Gave up.7 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭No1 is going to say something against gap closer per se but IF you manage to get out of max range, then you SHOULD be able to disengange from your target (mostly targets).
Its called CLOSING the GAP and not, PREVENTING to BUILD a GAP.
Once you manage to get out of distance, the gap closer won't fire off. Not sure how that's an issue with or without the mini-stun.
All the [non-broken, unspammable] mini-stun does is allow a brief window for a melee attack after a successful gap closer. Your bolt sorc can then bolt again. Although if you might want to fire off a cc to prevent the enemy from coming right after you. Counters and counters to counters. Seems to be working as intended.I dont understand how you can even defend such an unfair method...but well, you are also for AoE caps, so i guess it figures...
I'm basically agnostic about AoE caps. I'm fine with removing them IF that doesn't cause more server performance issues. However, I think that anyone who thinks just removing them will break the Blobs is incorrect.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
Jhunn✭✭✭✭✭
✭I don't think anyone here argues that removing AOE caps will get 100% rid of zergs and blobs Edited by Jhunn on December 5, 2015 3:11PMGave up.0 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭What has friendly fire to do with that. Do you want smart dmg too and aoe healing for enemies?
That arguing about "fair" is pointless. It's an unrealistic game in almost every sense. I'm more concerned about it not being broken because of horrible lag.
Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »If the AoE cap was 1 there would be no lag... so again whats your point ?
That ! precisely my point.
Let's try this: suppress multiple targets on aoe and let's check for lag on a test server for a week.
Wouldn't that be great ? one spell, one hit, getting creative with spell combination and assists instead of spamming aoe ?as Pryda himself shows and perfectly knows that without AoE cap, such ballgroup could be wiped by a 6 man group.
Of course you could, but you are missing my point: even without cap spamballs would stack up based on the assumption their damage output would be superior to their opponents and instant kill them (which would be the case with pugs). Of course it would have less impact with your kind of group or ours, sure you could outsmart/outdamage them. But not the vast majority of groups. So would it be good for a majority of players... I doubt it. One thing is sure... the day they take aoe caps off, we also would be obliged to stop mono targeting, and go for that shi.tty aoe meta...
And lag would begin long before they actually hit any opponents:
atm they actually move spam casting tornadoe (just like pryda did btw) also to detect hidden opposition.
So the lag is there all along.
I think it is worth going a bit more into details at this point.Large aoe lagballs will overstack aoe in a trial to outdamage other aoelagballs...
Your assumption (how I understand it):
Two AOE raids trying to kill each other, a "small" one (20) and a big one (40). The large groups still wind due to higher numbers. (Please correct me if either of this is wrong)
No... I don't care wether they win or not: both groups still lag due to aoe stack even before impact: that's what we experience atm with some groups: ping rising to 500+ while they still don't have made any contact... as soon as they start to chain cast. So As I wrote before, I doubt cap ot not cap would solve lag.
They will begin to cast while moving as most of these groups do and drown everyone in lag, wiping any pugs or "pve level" organized groups in their way. Of course smaller organized structure will aim at outsmarting/outdamage them with instant kill tactics, better coordination and ultimates...and would most probably succeed. But in the meanwhile it would be lagland for everyone... again and again.
And I absolutely agree with you...
...why wouldn't you stack even more with no AoE caps when you have this...
compuversal.com/eso/aoe-caps.pdf
... to look forward too ?
Many more targets Hit.
Much greater area of effect.
Much greater damage stacking.
The ability to carpet bomb a whole area with RED.
Who does no AoE caps really benefit the most ?
With a 4 man group I can synchronize an attack on a breach to defend it when 60 players pore through.
I can hit all 60 ...and every one of them will receive 4x damage....which may or may not be enough to one shot most of them.
With a 24 man group I can sync an attack for 24x damage to all 60 players that burst through the breach at the same time.
All of which are guaranteed to be dead with an instant 1 shot.
There is no skill here with unlimited AoE caps.
Its just stack numbers and hit the IWIN button... and enjoy the lag while you wait for server dump.
You'd have a point if there wasn't countless examples of other games proving the exact opposite happens.
Basically; in every game AOE caps exist...Stacking Happens
In every game AOE caps don't exist...No one Stacks....and Large Clumps are instant killed in seconds...While you can't rush into a head on fight with an AOEing Zerg ball..Just having say. 3 DragonKnights do a Leap into the middle of them all at once would wipe a good portion of whoever was AOEing there at once.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos3 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭Which do you think requires the most calculations?
Those are basically the same. Secondary effects are where the issue arises (should have been clearer on that). Currently, that is hard capped at 6 players effected.
Edited by Talcyndl on December 5, 2015 3:15PMTal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »If the AoE cap was 1 there would be no lag... so again whats your point ?
That ! precisely my point.
Let's try this: suppress multiple targets on aoe and let's check for lag on a test server for a week.
Wouldn't that be great ? one spell, one hit, getting creative with spell combination and assists instead of spamming aoe ?as Pryda himself shows and perfectly knows that without AoE cap, such ballgroup could be wiped by a 6 man group.
Of course you could, but you are missing my point: even without cap spamballs would stack up based on the assumption their damage output would be superior to their opponents and instant kill them (which would be the case with pugs). Of course it would have less impact with your kind of group or ours, sure you could outsmart/outdamage them. But not the vast majority of groups. So would it be good for a majority of players... I doubt it. One thing is sure... the day they take aoe caps off, we also would be obliged to stop mono targeting, and go for that shi.tty aoe meta...
And lag would begin long before they actually hit any opponents:
atm they actually move spam casting tornadoe (just like pryda did btw) also to detect hidden opposition.
So the lag is there all along.
I think it is worth going a bit more into details at this point.Large aoe lagballs will overstack aoe in a trial to outdamage other aoelagballs...
Your assumption (how I understand it):
Two AOE raids trying to kill each other, a "small" one (20) and a big one (40). The large groups still wind due to higher numbers. (Please correct me if either of this is wrong)
No... I don't care wether they win or not: both groups still lag due to aoe stack even before impact: that's what we experience atm with some groups: ping rising to 500+ while they still don't have made any contact... as soon as they start to chain cast. So As I wrote before, I doubt cap ot not cap would solve lag.
They will begin to cast while moving as most of these groups do and drown everyone in lag, wiping any pugs or "pve level" organized groups in their way. Of course smaller organized structure will aim at outsmarting/outdamage them with instant kill tactics, better coordination and ultimates...and would most probably succeed. But in the meanwhile it would be lagland for everyone... again and again.
And I absolutely agree with you...
...why wouldn't you stack even more with no AoE caps when you have this...
compuversal.com/eso/aoe-caps.pdf
... to look forward too ?
Many more targets Hit.
Much greater area of effect.
Much greater damage stacking.
The ability to carpet bomb a whole area with RED.
Who does no AoE caps really benefit the most ?
With a 4 man group I can synchronize an attack on a breach to defend it when 60 players pore through.
I can hit all 60 ...and every one of them will receive 4x damage....which may or may not be enough to one shot most of them.
With a 24 man group I can sync an attack for 24x damage to all 60 players that burst through the breach at the same time.
All of which are guaranteed to be dead with an instant 1 shot.
There is no skill here with unlimited AoE caps.
Its just stack numbers and hit the IWIN button... and enjoy the lag while you wait for server dump.
Of course I could do everything I can do with 4 people with 24 of the same skill level as well if I manage to orgnize them as well. That is simple logic and nothing will change that anyway.
What people arguing for AoE caps don't seem to understand - or are unwilling to acknowledge - is that it makes little sense arguing from the current zergball meta post AoE caps. A removal would be aimed at removing shifting the meta to something else, if players stack up then it would be their own fault if enemies do the same and manage to bomb them. And if they stack up to attack spread out enemies, they do not deal more damage than if they used single target - wich would be the same as it is now. It would still have the benefit of more efficient healing, but that's about it.
One skill that might still hit a lot of people even when they are more or less spread out and deal a lot of damage on them is Steel Tornado - wich, incidentally @Wrobel already mentioned he would like to address.
I really feel a bit dumber every time I read this thread now...DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU3 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭We disagree and I'm really not going to use more time arguing for the AOE caps removal, because it won't change a [snip] thing apparantly. You'll have to explain this, though, to me:
How? Do you even know how AOE caps currently work?The main concern I would have from removing the cap is the effect on lag. If it does little to nothing to break of the Blobs (which I don't think it would), then it would mean significantly greater server load from calculating (and communicating) the addition damage/effects/targets.
If you hit 10 people that's 10x calculations.
If you hit 100 people that's 100x calculations.
Is it really that difficult to grasp the effect AoE caps has on client updates at the server and client updates that then have to go from server to clients via the network ?
I would suggest @Talcyndl understands the ramifications of AoE caps far better than a few on here.
You think destroying large groups is the priority in reducing lag.
Yet seem oblivious removing caps empowers them at the same time as you.
And have absolutely no regard for server performance and lag other than a wing and a prayer.
Yes small bomb groups can now damage more players.
BUT large groups can also hit many many more players for much much more damage over much much bigger area.
BUT pug groups who don't coordinate can also hit many many more people and not wipe them too.
So all your arguments about wiping large groups is irrelevant as it only works for bomb groups.
PVP is pointless with LAG. Cap removal is not a cure. Its a stab in the dark and hope for the best that works well of coordinated bombs groups and lags out everyone else.
vis-a-vis.... be a large bomb group or go home.
That's is not compatible with solo and small group play that @Wrobel is trying to encourage.
We had Lag before 1.6...no one has argued this.
Lag went to a whole other level when AoE caps were rasied to 60 from 6 because all of you cried "remove AoE caps".
You had your way once....and now scream...we need to hit even more targets with even more damage.
It failed. It was proven to fail with 1.6 and the cap rise from 6 to 60 targets.
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY LOWERED CAMPAIGN POPULATION AND BEGGED PEOPLE TO SPREAD OUT SINCE 1.6 ?
It had no effect on the ball groups and if anything the ball groups have got bigger and more numerous since...because they have been empowered rather than culled.
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2024 12:50PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »We disagree and I'm really not going to use more time arguing for the AOE caps removal, because it won't change a f*cking thing apparantly. You'll have to explain this, though, to me:
How? Do you even know how AOE caps currently work?The main concern I would have from removing the cap is the effect on lag. If it does little to nothing to break of the Blobs (which I don't think it would), then it would mean significantly greater server load from calculating (and communicating) the addition damage/effects/targets.
If you hit 10 people that's 10x calculations.
If you hit 100 people that's 100x calculations.
Is it really that difficult to grasp the effect AoE caps has on client updates at the server and client updates that then have to go from server to clients via the network ?
[...]
I guess that's a no.
DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU4 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »We disagree and I'm really not going to use more time arguing for the AOE caps removal, because it won't change a [snip] thing apparantly. You'll have to explain this, though, to me:
How? Do you even know how AOE caps currently work?The main concern I would have from removing the cap is the effect on lag. If it does little to nothing to break of the Blobs (which I don't think it would), then it would mean significantly greater server load from calculating (and communicating) the addition damage/effects/targets.
If you hit 10 people that's 10x calculations.
If you hit 100 people that's 100x calculations.
Is it really that difficult to grasp the effect AoE caps has on client updates at the server and client updates that then have to go from server to clients via the network ?
I would suggest @Talcyndl understands the ramifications of AoE caps far better than a few on here.
You think destroying large groups is the priority in reducing lag.
Yet seem oblivious removing caps empowers them at the same time as you.
And have absolutely no regard for server performance and lag other than a wing and a prayer.
Yes small bomb groups can now damage more players.
BUT large groups can also hit many many more players for much much more damage over much much bigger area.
BUT pug groups who don't coordinate can also hit many many more people and not wipe them too.
So all your arguments about wiping large groups is irrelevant as it only works for bomb groups.
PVP is pointless with LAG. Cap removal is not a cure. Its a stab in the dark and hope for the best that works well of coordinated bombs groups and lags out everyone else.
vis-a-vis.... be a large bomb group or go home.
That's is not compatible with solo and small group play that @Wrobel is trying to encourage.
We had Lag before 1.6...no one has argued this.
Lag went to a whole other level when AoE caps were rasied to 60 from 6 because all of you cried "remove AoE caps".
You had your way once....and now scream...we need to hit even more targets with even more damage.
It failed. It was proven to fail with 1.6 and the cap rise from 6 to 60 targets.
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY LOWERED CAMPAIGN POPULATION AND BEGGED PEOPLE TO SPREAD OUT SINCE 1.6 ?
It had no effect on the ball groups and if anything the ball groups have got bigger and more numerous since...because they have been empowered rather than culled.
If you hit 100 people stacked ontop of them with multiple AOE's without a cap..they'll all be dead...Where as right now if you hit say 60 people (the cap) with multiple AOE's...they'll probably still be alive..It takes longer to kill them..they require more AOE's to be used..Each time you hit them with that AOE..you have to do multiple passes to determine which gets hit for 100%; which gets hit for like 30% ect ect...
Basically its not the initial bomb that brings the server to its knee's..its when they're still standing in the same spot after 10 seconds of the initial bomb spamming AOE's
As for talking about Lag in a whole other level before 1.6
No..we've talked about this before
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFi1SYcaFQ
July of last year
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2024 12:51PMhttps://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos4 -
Merlight✭✭✭✭✭
No.Rune_Relic wrote: »If you hit 10 people that's 10x calculations.
If you hit 100 people that's 100x calculations.
No.Rune_Relic wrote: »You think destroying large groups is the priority in reducing lag.
Yet seem oblivious removing caps empowers them at the same time as you.
N... evermind, you can't be serious.Rune_Relic wrote: »We had Lag before 1.6...no one has argued this.
Lag went to a whole other level when AoE caps were rasied to 60 from 6 because all of you cried "remove AoE caps".
You had your way once....and now scream...we need to hit even more targets with even more damage.
It failed. It was proven to fail with 1.6 and the cap rise from 6 to 60 targets.
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
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You are therefor dismissing any discussion about balance and mechanics as long as the game is not working - what happens when these (balance and gameperformance) interact with each other?
Im just trying to get behind your thougt process...<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 503 -
Yuke✭✭✭✭✭No1 is going to say something against gap closer per se but IF you manage to get out of max range, then you SHOULD be able to disengange from your target (mostly targets).
Its called CLOSING the GAP and not, PREVENTING to BUILD a GAP.
Once you manage to get out of distance, the gap closer won't fire off. Not sure how that's an issue with or without the mini-stun.
Wow, really? How about because you cant even get close to the situation of disengaging (leaving the range of a gap closer) because of the ongoing silencing?
Are you even for real man? You cant be serious...
Edited by Yuke on December 5, 2015 3:45PM6 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭No1 is going to say something against gap closer per se but IF you manage to get out of max range, then you SHOULD be able to disengange from your target (mostly targets).
Its called CLOSING the GAP and not, PREVENTING to BUILD a GAP.
Once you manage to get out of distance, the gap closer won't fire off. Not sure how that's an issue with or without the mini-stun.
Wow, really? How about because you cant even get close to the situation of disengaging (leaving the range of a gap closer) because of the ongoing silencing?
Are you even for real man? You cant be serious...
How is it "ongoing"? Other than ambush, all the gap closers have a minimum distance. So they can't fire off again after catching you. Just try something (like cc on them) before you bolt again. Sorry that spamming bolt is no longer a get out of jail free card.
Edited by Talcyndl on December 5, 2015 4:03PMTal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rune_Relic wrote: »We disagree and I'm really not going to use more time arguing for the AOE caps removal, because it won't change a [snip] thing apparantly. You'll have to explain this, though, to me:
How? Do you even know how AOE caps currently work?The main concern I would have from removing the cap is the effect on lag. If it does little to nothing to break of the Blobs (which I don't think it would), then it would mean significantly greater server load from calculating (and communicating) the addition damage/effects/targets.
If you hit 10 people that's 10x calculations.
If you hit 100 people that's 100x calculations.
Is it really that difficult to grasp the effect AoE caps has on client updates at the server and client updates that then have to go from server to clients via the network ?
I would suggest @Talcyndl understands the ramifications of AoE caps far better than a few on here.
You think destroying large groups is the priority in reducing lag.
Yet seem oblivious removing caps empowers them at the same time as you.
And have absolutely no regard for server performance and lag other than a wing and a prayer.
Yes small bomb groups can now damage more players.
BUT large groups can also hit many many more players for much much more damage over much much bigger area.
BUT pug groups who don't coordinate can also hit many many more people and not wipe them too.
So all your arguments about wiping large groups is irrelevant as it only works for bomb groups.
PVP is pointless with LAG. Cap removal is not a cure. Its a stab in the dark and hope for the best that works well of coordinated bombs groups and lags out everyone else.
vis-a-vis.... be a large bomb group or go home.
That's is not compatible with solo and small group play that @Wrobel is trying to encourage.
We had Lag before 1.6...no one has argued this.
Lag went to a whole other level when AoE caps were rasied to 60 from 6 because all of you cried "remove AoE caps".
You had your way once....and now scream...we need to hit even more targets with even more damage.
It failed. It was proven to fail with 1.6 and the cap rise from 6 to 60 targets.
WHY DO YOU THINK THEY LOWERED CAMPAIGN POPULATION AND BEGGED PEOPLE TO SPREAD OUT SINCE 1.6 ?
It had no effect on the ball groups and if anything the ball groups have got bigger and more numerous since...because they have been empowered rather than culled.
If you hit 100 people stacked ontop of them with multiple AOE's without a cap..they'll all be dead...Where as right now if you hit say 60 people (the cap) with multiple AOE's...they'll probably still be alive..It takes longer to kill them..they require more AOE's to be used..Each time you hit them with that AOE..you have to do multiple passes to determine which gets hit for 100%; which gets hit for like 30% ect ect...
Basically its not the initial bomb that brings the server to its knee's..its when they're still standing in the same spot after 10 seconds of the initial bomb spamming AOE's
As for talking about Lag in a whole other level before 1.6
No..we've talked about this beforehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJFi1SYcaFQ
July of last year
So you have 100 people all within the same healing circle (your targeted area) and you think 4 players are going to kill anyone with smart heals going off ?
Especially if your 4 strikes land over 4 ticks instead of 1 tick with the lag affecting different players latency in different ways.
I really cant believe anything anyone says if they think more players hit does not equal more server calculations and client updates to make.
Clearly they have never coded anything in their life.
Its really such a no brainer its not even worthy of discussion.
Probably why wrobel hasn't even merited the discussion with a response TBH.
And there you go again denying PVP campaign size was reduced and PVP players told to spread out.
That was because........... ???????
[edited to remove quote]Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 21, 2024 12:52PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭No1 is going to say something against gap closer per se but IF you manage to get out of max range, then you SHOULD be able to disengange from your target (mostly targets).
Its called CLOSING the GAP and not, PREVENTING to BUILD a GAP.
Once you manage to get out of distance, the gap closer won't fire off. Not sure how that's an issue with or without the mini-stun.
Wow, really? How about because you cant even get close to the situation of disengaging (leaving the range of a gap closer) because of the ongoing silencing?
Are you even for real man? You cant be serious...
How is it "ongoing"? Other than ambush, all the gap closets have a minimum distance. So they can't fire off again after catching you. Just try something (like cc on them) before you bolt again. Sorry that spamming bolt is no longer a get out of jail free card.
He is a stam Dk. So - yeah. I get that your rhoughtprocess is:
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Talcyndl✭✭✭✭✭Im just trying to get behind your thougt process...
My thoughts are simple.
Blobs and lag are far and away the number one issue (and they are basically the same issue) in PvP.
Removing AoE caps will not (by itself) solve that problem. On the other hand, the siege changes and the range of skill changes Wrobel discusses could break the Blobs.
That's a good thing. Even if the partial AoE cap/diminishing return system we have remains.
If they decide to get rid of it that's fine too.Tal'gro Bol
PvP Vice Officer [Retired] and Huscarl of Vokundein
http://www.legend-gaming.net/vokundein/0