Joy_Division wrote: »

You can't expect people to play sub-optimal builds and use sub-optimal strategies in a competitive environment.

I don't know why you keep asking. I don't know why you keep complaining. I don't know why you keep saying WTF is wrong with these people.

Perphection wrote: »

DeusAres wrote: »

Cinnamon_Spider wrote: »

I only have one thing to say to all of the people in the huge groups on Azuras. WTF is wrong with you people?

Yeah! How dare we play the game the way it was intended!

http://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/game-guide/the-alliance-war

Featuring three-sided Player vs. Player (PvP) gameplay, The Elder Scrolls Online: Tamriel Unlimited supports hundreds of players on screen at once in an open world fight for control of Cyrodiil. Seize, hold, and control the resources of massive strongholds. Utilize massive siege weapons to crumble fortress walls and smash through fortified gates. Conquer the Imperial City, and your alliance's top player could even be crowned Emperor!

No, it's "How dare they advertise a game that CANNOT be played the way they intended!"

Makkir wrote: »

Chuck ran with two groups this past weekend. Group one had 12 people and group two had 14 people. Yet we get called a zerg ball...we can't control where the pugs go or if they follow us like mindless lemmings. We consistently wiped groups twice our numbers.

Makkir wrote: »

It's hard enough to counter one zerg when your population overall is lacking

bchulettub17_ESO wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Chuck ran with two groups this past weekend. Group one had 12 people and group two had 14 people. Yet we get called a zerg ball...we can't control where the pugs go or if they follow us like mindless lemmings. We consistently wiped groups twice our numbers.

I like 1vX as much as the next guy but some of the best fun was this weekend in the drawn out, group on group Keep fights.



By the way, when I started playing this game again in 1.6 I rolled with EG because I didn't know any better. I can vouche B- rolled with like 150+ people


Added note- My computer is 2 years old (granted it was kind of top end 2 yrs ago), and ever since I increased my LUA memory and the hardware upgrades at ZOS...I have noticed a substantial performance increase in Cyrodiil for me anyway.

This is your problem.

What about the part where they wiped groups twice their numbers? Does that not imply a bigger problem?

Jules wrote: »

Makkir wrote: »

Chuck ran with two groups this past weekend. Group one had 12 people and group two had 14 people. Yet we get called a zerg ball...we can't control where the pugs go or if they follow us like mindless lemmings. We consistently wiped groups twice our numbers.

I like 1vX as much as the next guy but some of the best fun was this weekend in the drawn out, group on group Keep fights.



By the way, when I started playing this game again in 1.6 I rolled with EG because I didn't know any better. I can vouche B- rolled with like 150+ people


Added note- My computer is 2 years old (granted it was kind of top end 2 yrs ago), and ever since I increased my LUA memory and the hardware upgrades at ZOS...I have noticed a substantial performance increase in Cyrodiil for me anyway.

This is your problem.

Makkir wrote: »

It's hard enough to counter one zerg when your population overall is lacking

Also, are you serious?

It may. If I believed it.

Ezareth wrote: »

I'd just like to add this without injecting myself into all the back and forth going on.

There is nothing wrong with people who like large group PvP.

The problem is the *entire* player base has been pushed into a very singular style of play....the ball group and the primary reason for this is AoE caps. I don't blame players for running in ball groups, it is easily the most effective tactic in the game to achieve victory in any scenario imaginable. On the flip side this has destroyed PvP in Cyrodiil in many ways.


First, all of the players such as myself who *used* to love the old school style of large AvA combat are forced to play in that singular style of play that we don't enjoy or we now have to try to find small man combat where we can still be a loosely organized member of a team fighting toward a common goal. It wasn't always like that.

Second, it has made small or solo combat, which used to be widespread across cyrodiil to become extremely rare or uncommon. The players who normally would be playing in small groups and solo have been run over by ball groups so often that they have given up and joined ball groups themselves in order to be successful.

The final point is this....because PvP now exists almost exclusively in Ball groups in Cyrodiil, the performance of Cyrodiil is at an all time low. PvP by definition can no longer be spread out...it concentrates into the tightest areas possible which destroys performance. Just think about how many computations must be made when a tightly massed group of say 30 people cast a single healing spring each. 10s of thousands of computations for a single ability by each player.

Compare that to what you might find if those same 30 people cast a single target ability against a player, or performed a defensive ability like a dodge roll or recasting a shield. Very minimal impact on server performance. The true root cause to the majority of issues we experience in Cyrodiil is the popularity of large ball groups. The only way we're going to force these groups to spread out is by taking away their primary reason for clumping together....AoE caps.

I don't really see any other possible solution to this problem.

Teargrants wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I'd just like to add this without injecting myself into all the back and forth going on.

There is nothing wrong with people who like large group PvP.

The problem is the *entire* player base has been pushed into a very singular style of play....the ball group and the primary reason for this is AoE caps. I don't blame players for running in ball groups, it is easily the most effective tactic in the game to achieve victory in any scenario imaginable. On the flip side this has destroyed PvP in Cyrodiil in many ways.


First, all of the players such as myself who *used* to love the old school style of large AvA combat are forced to play in that singular style of play that we don't enjoy or we now have to try to find small man combat where we can still be a loosely organized member of a team fighting toward a common goal. It wasn't always like that.

Second, it has made small or solo combat, which used to be widespread across cyrodiil to become extremely rare or uncommon. The players who normally would be playing in small groups and solo have been run over by ball groups so often that they have given up and joined ball groups themselves in order to be successful.

The final point is this....because PvP now exists almost exclusively in Ball groups in Cyrodiil, the performance of Cyrodiil is at an all time low. PvP by definition can no longer be spread out...it concentrates into the tightest areas possible which destroys performance. Just think about how many computations must be made when a tightly massed group of say 30 people cast a single healing spring each. 10s of thousands of computations for a single ability by each player.

Compare that to what you might find if those same 30 people cast a single target ability against a player, or performed a defensive ability like a dodge roll or recasting a shield. Very minimal impact on server performance. The true root cause to the majority of issues we experience in Cyrodiil is the popularity of large ball groups. The only way we're going to force these groups to spread out is by taking away their primary reason for clumping together....AoE caps.

I don't really see any other possible solution to this problem.

If you want to stop organized groups from balling up, aoe caps are a big component, but it's not enough on it's own. One thing I don't think I've seen anyone stress is PBAOE vs ranged AOE. Currently I cannot think of any ranged AOE that a spread out group could drop that would be competitive dps-wise compared to the normal steel tornado / impulse spam rotations of a cheesewheel group. As long as PBAOE is the strongest form of AOE, even without AOE caps, the counter to cheesewheel PBAOE spam group is to have another group go in and cheesewheel pbaoe spam them. Then it's just a game of which group pulls off it's bomb better.

As I see it, it's basically a systemic problem of how AOEs are designed in this game. Let's take a look at different categories of AOE:

PBAOE - Only requires 1 button press, reliable known area, easy to blindly spam no matter how bad server/fps lag may get.

Ranged AOE (non target circle) - Only requires 1 button press, reliable known area, also easy to spam but pretty much no example of this type of AOE in ESO is superior to PBAOE. Encase is powerful, but that only fills the CC role and Paper Wall of Elements is one of the worst skills in the game.

Ranged AOE (target circle) - Requires initial button press, moving target circle and then second button press or button release. Horribly clunky cast mechanic and becomes pretty much unusable/aimable in bad lag. Once again, pretty much no AOE of this type in ESO offers better damage than PBAOE spam.

Ranged single target w/ AOE component - Easy to cast, but hard to coordinate damage on the center of a group depending on the skill. Skills like Inevitable Det and Meteor are powerful, but because of the delay between cast & dmg, targets can move out of the group and trivialize your dmg dealt. Outside of those 2 skills, there are many single target skills w/ weak AOE components, such as Mages Fury execute, Velocious Curse, 2 handed heavy atks, ect ect. Basically all pathetically useless at contributing to actual AOE dps.

Next, let's get to the big problem I see w/ the way these different types of AOE are implemented in ESO. PBAOE simply far outpaces other types of AOE in dmg. On top of that, ranged non target circle AOE is basically limited exclusively to effects that originate from the caster and extend X meters forward, this means the caster has to be practically in melee range of a group to use this type of AOE. Things like Wall of Ele, Path of Darkness, ect just don't reward enough dmg or other effects to be at all worth this risk. Same thing goes w/ ranged target circle AOE, Lightning Splash is indeed a useless splash, Templar Shards are decent, but still nothing compared to PBAOE options. And ranged single target w/ AOE components? The only decent non ult skill like this is Inevitable Det - and it has a clunky cast time + long time to explosion. This type of ability is something that a skill like chain lightning would fit into and (given reasonable dmg/cc effects) provide a useful tool to counter cheesewheels. So far, all I've seen ZOS do to try and address this is make siege immensely powerful, but that's just such a boring style of play.

And now I have to interject with another problem: the ranged AOE options aren't designed around direct dmg, but mostly dots. Things like Wall of Ele, Lightning Splash, ect - those don't mean anything because people just walk out of it. Am I saying make ranged AOE as strong as Steel Tornado? Well currently I feel Steel Tornado is too strong, but to the essence of the question, yes, if that's what it takes - though I don't think ranged AOE would actually need to be made that strong. I would prefer weaker siege dmg + stronger ranged AOE options than what we have now, basically.

Conceptually I'm sure all these AOE design choices were made because of PvE considerations. Devs don't want people range AOEing large pulls of mobs w/o risk (becuase the mobs are generally only dangerous in melee range). The dev logic was obviously something like "range AOE is low risk, PBAOE is high risk, lets scale reward (dmg output) accordingly." What this failed to take into account was PvP and how blobbing up into a cheesewheel mitigates so much risk in this game.

Lastly, let's get to the other big big BIG problem in this game that favors cheesewheel over spread out: Retreating Maneuvers. At the very core, the idea is that a cheesewheel should be less maneuverable than a group that's more spread out, Retreating Maneuvers is completely counter to that - not because of the speed boost, but because of the root/snare immunity. A cheesewheel already has the advantage of more unified movement, the immunity to snares/roots just gives them the initiative.

Teargrants wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

I'd just like to add this without injecting myself into all the back and forth going on.

There is nothing wrong with people who like large group PvP.

The problem is the *entire* player base has been pushed into a very singular style of play....the ball group and the primary reason for this is AoE caps. I don't blame players for running in ball groups, it is easily the most effective tactic in the game to achieve victory in any scenario imaginable. On the flip side this has destroyed PvP in Cyrodiil in many ways.


First, all of the players such as myself who *used* to love the old school style of large AvA combat are forced to play in that singular style of play that we don't enjoy or we now have to try to find small man combat where we can still be a loosely organized member of a team fighting toward a common goal. It wasn't always like that.

Second, it has made small or solo combat, which used to be widespread across cyrodiil to become extremely rare or uncommon. The players who normally would be playing in small groups and solo have been run over by ball groups so often that they have given up and joined ball groups themselves in order to be successful.

The final point is this....because PvP now exists almost exclusively in Ball groups in Cyrodiil, the performance of Cyrodiil is at an all time low. PvP by definition can no longer be spread out...it concentrates into the tightest areas possible which destroys performance. Just think about how many computations must be made when a tightly massed group of say 30 people cast a single healing spring each. 10s of thousands of computations for a single ability by each player.

Compare that to what you might find if those same 30 people cast a single target ability against a player, or performed a defensive ability like a dodge roll or recasting a shield. Very minimal impact on server performance. The true root cause to the majority of issues we experience in Cyrodiil is the popularity of large ball groups. The only way we're going to force these groups to spread out is by taking away their primary reason for clumping together....AoE caps.

I don't really see any other possible solution to this problem.

If you want to stop organized groups from balling up, aoe caps are a big component, but it's not enough on it's own. One thing I don't think I've seen anyone stress is PBAOE vs ranged AOE. Currently I cannot think of any ranged AOE that a spread out group could drop that would be competitive dps-wise compared to the normal steel tornado / impulse spam rotations of a cheesewheel group. As long as PBAOE is the strongest form of AOE, even without AOE caps, the counter to cheesewheel PBAOE spam group is to have another group go in and cheesewheel pbaoe spam them. Then it's just a game of which group pulls off it's bomb better.

As I see it, it's basically a systemic problem of how AOEs are designed in this game. Let's take a look at different categories of AOE:

PBAOE - Only requires 1 button press, reliable known area, easy to blindly spam no matter how bad server/fps lag may get.

Ranged AOE (non target circle) - Only requires 1 button press, reliable known area, also easy to spam but pretty much no example of this type of AOE in ESO is superior to PBAOE. Encase is powerful, but that only fills the CC role and Paper Wall of Elements is one of the worst skills in the game.

Ranged AOE (target circle) - Requires initial button press, moving target circle and then second button press or button release. Horribly clunky cast mechanic and becomes pretty much unusable/aimable in bad lag. Once again, pretty much no AOE of this type in ESO offers better damage than PBAOE spam.

Ranged single target w/ AOE component - Easy to cast, but hard to coordinate damage on the center of a group depending on the skill. Skills like Inevitable Det and Meteor are powerful, but because of the delay between cast & dmg, targets can move out of the group and trivialize your dmg dealt. Outside of those 2 skills, there are many single target skills w/ weak AOE components, such as Mages Fury execute, Velocious Curse, 2 handed heavy atks, ect ect. Basically all pathetically useless at contributing to actual AOE dps.

Next, let's get to the big problem I see w/ the way these different types of AOE are implemented in ESO. PBAOE simply far outpaces other types of AOE in dmg. On top of that, ranged non target circle AOE is basically limited exclusively to effects that originate from the caster and extend X meters forward, this means the caster has to be practically in melee range of a group to use this type of AOE. Things like Wall of Ele, Path of Darkness, ect just don't reward enough dmg or other effects to be at all worth this risk. Same thing goes w/ ranged target circle AOE, Lightning Splash is indeed a useless splash, Templar Shards are decent, but still nothing compared to PBAOE options. And ranged single target w/ AOE components? The only decent non ult skill like this is Inevitable Det - and it has a clunky cast time + long time to explosion. This type of ability is something that a skill like chain lightning would fit into and (given reasonable dmg/cc effects) provide a useful tool to counter cheesewheels. So far, all I've seen ZOS do to try and address this is make siege immensely powerful, but that's just such a boring style of play.

And now I have to interject with another problem: the ranged AOE options aren't designed around direct dmg, but mostly dots. Things like Wall of Ele, Lightning Splash, ect - those don't mean anything because people just walk out of it. Am I saying make ranged AOE as strong as Steel Tornado? Well currently I feel Steel Tornado is too strong, but to the essence of the question, yes, if that's what it takes - though I don't think ranged AOE would actually need to be made that strong. I would prefer weaker siege dmg + stronger ranged AOE options than what we have now, basically.

Conceptually I'm sure all these AOE design choices were made because of PvE considerations. Devs don't want people range AOEing large pulls of mobs w/o risk (becuase the mobs are generally only dangerous in melee range). The dev logic was obviously something like "range AOE is low risk, PBAOE is high risk, lets scale reward (dmg output) accordingly." What this failed to take into account was PvP and how blobbing up into a cheesewheel mitigates so much risk in this game.

Lastly, let's get to the other big big BIG problem in this game that favors cheesewheel over spread out: Retreating Maneuvers. At the very core, the idea is that a cheesewheel should be less maneuverable than a group that's more spread out, Retreating Maneuvers is completely counter to that - not because of the speed boost, but because of the root/snare immunity. A cheesewheel already has the advantage of more unified movement, the immunity to snares/roots just gives them the initiative.