Domander wrote: »

vichoi wrote: »

I understand ZOS want sorc to stay in the fight instead of running, however, those sorc gave up dps for survibility are rely on BE to stay alive, the BE spam sorcs have far less dps.

Unlike DK and Templar they can tank for a while and wait for ally when outnumber. Sorc need BE to stay alive and wait for help, or they just die.

I can't take you seriously. Both of these are false.

vichoi wrote: »

Also, we don't want to count 4sec to use next bolt, but at the same time we count 3 for curse, count to 4 for DK reflect? I'd rather they put a cooldown, I hate counting in a fight.

There's an animation for the 4 seconds already in game.

This guy is so focused on nerfing sorc that he has tunnel vision and doest realize the console players don't have add ons so we do have to count. He has no idea how BE works. I went all spell damage on my sorc and no, I can't just bolt escape away from any fight. You are a tard if you think otherwise. Nothing but an ignorant troll.

Ghostbane wrote: »

6k regen then. Mkay.

Regen is a factor while blobbing? Who'd have known!

Lionxoft wrote: »

Ghostbane wrote: »

6k regen then. Mkay.

Regen is a factor while blobbing? Who'd have known!

Trade secret.

Erondil wrote: »

TagaParti wrote: »

nerf Sheliza!
oh yeah, impossible!

Ofc, you cant nerf what is already completely useless.

DDuke wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.

Out of curiousity: What's your Stamina Regeneration?

1.3K. How is my stamina regen relevant to this topic at all?

My reply was to @Soris, who (mistakengly) called me a glass cannon.

It's not, I was just curious and thought I might ask.
Apart from that it helps me understanding the different types of glass-cannons.

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).

Potions? Puhahaha. Dude don't be ridiculous. Only newcomers believe that.
Every single thing in your quote is untrue
Come on...

Next time I see one of these permablocker scumbags people I'll record a video, just for you

Also, helping hands passive with 30-40k stamina equals to 1000-1500 stam regen if you use an Earthen Heart ability every 5 seconds (fairly realistic).

Man.. You clearly know nothing other than firing arrows from stealth sorry.
I will quote this again,

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).

How can these be even possible??

Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.

If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.

Whisper me in game, I can give you name of one of these I've been seeing a lot in Haderus. Can't do it here due to naming&shaming.

Watched him tank 4 jesus beams & several other people for minutes. When he finally died, he was still blocking.

I even fought the same person at a resource once. He was tanking every single NPC at the resource (I kid you not) and my WW damage (transformed into WW to fear+howl him for instagib) with infinite CC immunity for well over a minute (still blocking when he died).

Not an emperor by the way.

And I've seen similar play by many others, but this one person just pops up every time I think about permablockers ^^


Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).

People just aren't experimenting enough, good example is stamina DKs.

Everyone hypes stamina NBs, but truth is that stamina DK has just as much, if not more potential (rationale: only class with access to Minor Brutality buff, only class with Physical dmg ultimate meaning +25% dmg from Mighty, Helping Hands etc).

Come on now. Don't compare regular block builds with extreme tank builds. You can not call nerfs to every single unique block builds just bcs of that one particular pve tank guy.
Did he even manage to drop you under 90% health? I highly doubt that. Once in every Feracious Leap maybe, but that's just that. And you are glass cannon.

I don't think any build should require so little skill (just holding right mouse button) and be unkillable unless greatly outnumbered.

Infinite resources is just a bad, bad idea (especially when said thing grants you infinite survivability as well) and dumbs down the gameplay, taking away the whole resource management aspect.


Also, you know very little about my build if you're calling me a glass cannon ^^

My Vigor actually heals over 50% more than your usual rollerblade's Vigor, and my DW/DW setup runs a 30k Barrier that heals me for 1k/second for 30 seconds.

This alone means I can take on multiple attackers and not get bursted down immediately (though that still happens sometimes) and I can outheal most damage dealt to me by a single person. Without even accounting the 25k health, this makes me the opposite of a glass cannon (in fact, your usual rollerblade running around with 19k health and maybe 8-9k Vigor would be closer to that description).

What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.

You're glasscanon because :
-You cant use nirn (or you would lose a lot of dmg)
-You are oos quite fast
Sure, heals that can scale on stamina/wep dmg heals you for a lot but thats the same for every glasscanon build since damages scale on the same stats than heals. Look at our duels for example, whoever won, it was barely more than 30 seconds fights.

@Erondil, @Sublime , let me explain what "glass cannon" means.

Glass cannon is a build that deals tons of damage, but is extremely squishy.

Someone who has more health & stronger heals than others is the very opposite of "squishy".


For further emphasis:
Your typical rollerblade can die in 0,1 seconds and is more likely unable to outheal damage from multiple sources (e.g. when focused on in 1vX scenario).

Sustain has nothing to do with being a "glass cannon", only TTK on both you & your opponent(s) does.

If I die after 30-60 seconds due to running out of stamina, that's better than dying in <0,1 seconds when it comes to determining whether someone is a glass cannon.


Also @Erondil, I could swap 3 Infused enchants (on large parts) for Nirnhoned and lose around 600 stamina (2% damage), but since Nirnhoned is getting nerfed next patch I don't feel like wasting money (this way I'm also getting practice for what's to come).

I know what glass canon is, thanks, but what you don't seem to understand is that "squishy" isnt only about your amount of hp or what your hots heals you for. You have 25k hp, 5k more than the standard stam nb, but you have what... 30k spell resist less? Your 5k hp wont change anything, if you stand in front of me, I can easily 3-4 hit you (by only using concelead weapon) while I would 5-6 hit a nirn medium armor user with 20k hp. Also, your vigor might heals you for 12k, but its your only heal (not counting barrier because its a 200 cost ultimate so you cant use it in a duel before ~1 minute of fight) while others stamblade usually run rally which can give an huge instant heal. The use of rally also give them an overall higher hps (if they unlocked vigor ofc) eventhough their stamina/wep dmg are lower than your. On top of that, you can't use your defensive tools (heal, rolldodge...) as much as others so you're definitely squishy for me.
Also you are running a full damage setup so your damage are extremly high : you're glasscanon and, as said again you could easily notice it with the duration of our duels : whoever win, they barely last more than 30 seconds when duels agaisnt good stamblades not glasscanon (Blazemaster when he was still playing or Liberate) last several minutes.
No, squishy isnt only about health pool and one tooltip

Are we talking about duels only, or normal PvP?

Because in normal PvP (and in duels only once so far by a sorc combo which I could've avoided) I never get one shot, where as I do that on a regular basis to every rollerblade with 20k health I spot in Cyrodiil.

I can have 6-7 people focus on me & not go down in an instant thanks to the significantly higher Vigor tooltip.

The problem with Rally spamming is that you have to stop to cast it (same with Vigor, but that is only every 5 seconds), meaning that you can get bursted down on that second by good players (because you are squishy).

Also, I actually get more healing from one Vigor than someone playing a rollerblade gets from one Vigor+Rally.


Sustain build is exactly what it is: a sustain build.

Doesn't change the fact that it is extremely vulnerable to burst damage, making it a glass "cannon".

Should that burst damage not materialize however, sustain build gets the obvious advantage (the longer the fight goes on).

Almost whenever I see you, you instagib (or try to) someone and then you try to dodge/cloak away while i whip you death.

Yes, that's the life of a stamina NB in a nutshell.

If you can't roll dodge and/or cloak to avoid attacks, you're just dying a slow death when in a 1vX scenario and there's not much to be done about it, unless you can instagib all of the attackers (before they get heals) without cloak or sneak attacks, which isn't particularly easy vs half the Banana Squad :P

Maybe a Stamina glass cannon NB with no SR and hitpoints.

DKs that do nothing but hold block while spamming whip and invasion are annoying though. I can't think of a more boring or skilless style of play. No reactions or counters needed, 1 damage + 1 gap closer while holding block and the occasional GDB.

I usually just fear > retreating manuevers > sprint away and see if they can match my cardio unless my favorite healbot is around ( =

DDuke wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.

Out of curiousity: What's your Stamina Regeneration?

1.3K. How is my stamina regen relevant to this topic at all?

My reply was to @Soris, who (mistakengly) called me a glass cannon.

It's not, I was just curious and thought I might ask.
Apart from that it helps me understanding the different types of glass-cannons.

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).

Potions? Puhahaha. Dude don't be ridiculous. Only newcomers believe that.
Every single thing in your quote is untrue
Come on...

Next time I see one of these permablocker scumbags people I'll record a video, just for you

Also, helping hands passive with 30-40k stamina equals to 1000-1500 stam regen if you use an Earthen Heart ability every 5 seconds (fairly realistic).

Man.. You clearly know nothing other than firing arrows from stealth sorry.
I will quote this again,

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).

How can these be even possible??

Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.

If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.

Whisper me in game, I can give you name of one of these I've been seeing a lot in Haderus. Can't do it here due to naming&shaming.

Watched him tank 4 jesus beams & several other people for minutes. When he finally died, he was still blocking.

I even fought the same person at a resource once. He was tanking every single NPC at the resource (I kid you not) and my WW damage (transformed into WW to fear+howl him for instagib) with infinite CC immunity for well over a minute (still blocking when he died).

Not an emperor by the way.

And I've seen similar play by many others, but this one person just pops up every time I think about permablockers ^^


Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).

People just aren't experimenting enough, good example is stamina DKs.

Everyone hypes stamina NBs, but truth is that stamina DK has just as much, if not more potential (rationale: only class with access to Minor Brutality buff, only class with Physical dmg ultimate meaning +25% dmg from Mighty, Helping Hands etc).

Come on now. Don't compare regular block builds with extreme tank builds. You can not call nerfs to every single unique block builds just bcs of that one particular pve tank guy.
Did he even manage to drop you under 90% health? I highly doubt that. Once in every Feracious Leap maybe, but that's just that. And you are glass cannon.

I don't think any build should require so little skill (just holding right mouse button) and be unkillable unless greatly outnumbered.

Infinite resources is just a bad, bad idea (especially when said thing grants you infinite survivability as well) and dumbs down the gameplay, taking away the whole resource management aspect.


Also, you know very little about my build if you're calling me a glass cannon ^^

My Vigor actually heals over 50% more than your usual rollerblade's Vigor, and my DW/DW setup runs a 30k Barrier that heals me for 1k/second for 30 seconds.

This alone means I can take on multiple attackers and not get bursted down immediately (though that still happens sometimes) and I can outheal most damage dealt to me by a single person. Without even accounting the 25k health, this makes me the opposite of a glass cannon (in fact, your usual rollerblade running around with 19k health and maybe 8-9k Vigor would be closer to that description).

What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.

You're glasscanon because :
-You cant use nirn (or you would lose a lot of dmg)
-You are oos quite fast
Sure, heals that can scale on stamina/wep dmg heals you for a lot but thats the same for every glasscanon build since damages scale on the same stats than heals. Look at our duels for example, whoever won, it was barely more than 30 seconds fights.

@Erondil, @Sublime , let me explain what "glass cannon" means.

Glass cannon is a build that deals tons of damage, but is extremely squishy.

Someone who has more health & stronger heals than others is the very opposite of "squishy".


For further emphasis:
Your typical rollerblade can die in 0,1 seconds and is more likely unable to outheal damage from multiple sources (e.g. when focused on in 1vX scenario).

Sustain has nothing to do with being a "glass cannon", only TTK on both you & your opponent(s) does.

If I die after 30-60 seconds due to running out of stamina, that's better than dying in <0,1 seconds when it comes to determining whether someone is a glass cannon.


Also @Erondil, I could swap 3 Infused enchants (on large parts) for Nirnhoned and lose around 600 stamina (2% damage), but since Nirnhoned is getting nerfed next patch I don't feel like wasting money (this way I'm also getting practice for what's to come).

I know what glass canon is, thanks, but what you don't seem to understand is that "squishy" isnt only about your amount of hp or what your hots heals you for. You have 25k hp, 5k more than the standard stam nb, but you have what... 30k spell resist less? Your 5k hp wont change anything, if you stand in front of me, I can easily 3-4 hit you (by only using concelead weapon) while I would 5-6 hit a nirn medium armor user with 20k hp. Also, your vigor might heals you for 12k, but its your only heal (not counting barrier because its a 200 cost ultimate so you cant use it in a duel before ~1 minute of fight) while others stamblade usually run rally which can give an huge instant heal. The use of rally also give them an overall higher hps (if they unlocked vigor ofc) eventhough their stamina/wep dmg are lower than your. On top of that, you can't use your defensive tools (heal, rolldodge...) as much as others so you're definitely squishy for me.
Also you are running a full damage setup so your damage are extremly high : you're glasscanon and, as said again you could easily notice it with the duration of our duels : whoever win, they barely last more than 30 seconds when duels agaisnt good stamblades not glasscanon (Blazemaster when he was still playing or Liberate) last several minutes.
No, squishy isnt only about health pool and one tooltip

Are we talking about duels only, or normal PvP?

Because in normal PvP (and in duels only once so far by a sorc combo which I could've avoided) I never get one shot, where as I do that on a regular basis to every rollerblade with 20k health I spot in Cyrodiil.

I can have 6-7 people focus on me & not go down in an instant thanks to the significantly higher Vigor tooltip.

The problem with Rally spamming is that you have to stop to cast it (same with Vigor, but that is only every 5 seconds), meaning that you can get bursted down on that second by good players (because you are squishy).

Also, I actually get more healing from one Vigor than someone playing a rollerblade gets from one Vigor+Rally.


Sustain build is exactly what it is: a sustain build.

Doesn't change the fact that it is extremely vulnerable to burst damage, making it a glass "cannon".

Should that burst damage not materialize however, sustain build gets the obvious advantage (the longer the fight goes on).

Almost whenever I see you, you instagib (or try to) someone and then you try to dodge/cloak away while i whip you death.

Yes, that's the life of a stamina NB in a nutshell.

If you can't roll dodge and/or cloak to avoid attacks, you're just dying a slow death when in a 1vX scenario and there's not much to be done about it, unless you can instagib all of the attackers (before they get heals) without cloak or sneak attacks, which isn't particularly easy vs half the Banana Squad :P

DDuke wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.

Out of curiousity: What's your Stamina Regeneration?

1.3K. How is my stamina regen relevant to this topic at all?

My reply was to @Soris, who (mistakengly) called me a glass cannon.

It's not, I was just curious and thought I might ask.
Apart from that it helps me understanding the different types of glass-cannons.

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).

Potions? Puhahaha. Dude don't be ridiculous. Only newcomers believe that.
Every single thing in your quote is untrue
Come on...

Next time I see one of these permablocker scumbags people I'll record a video, just for you

Also, helping hands passive with 30-40k stamina equals to 1000-1500 stam regen if you use an Earthen Heart ability every 5 seconds (fairly realistic).

Man.. You clearly know nothing other than firing arrows from stealth sorry.
I will quote this again,

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).

How can these be even possible??

Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.

If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.

Whisper me in game, I can give you name of one of these I've been seeing a lot in Haderus. Can't do it here due to naming&shaming.

Watched him tank 4 jesus beams & several other people for minutes. When he finally died, he was still blocking.

I even fought the same person at a resource once. He was tanking every single NPC at the resource (I kid you not) and my WW damage (transformed into WW to fear+howl him for instagib) with infinite CC immunity for well over a minute (still blocking when he died).

Not an emperor by the way.

And I've seen similar play by many others, but this one person just pops up every time I think about permablockers ^^


Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).

People just aren't experimenting enough, good example is stamina DKs.

Everyone hypes stamina NBs, but truth is that stamina DK has just as much, if not more potential (rationale: only class with access to Minor Brutality buff, only class with Physical dmg ultimate meaning +25% dmg from Mighty, Helping Hands etc).

Come on now. Don't compare regular block builds with extreme tank builds. You can not call nerfs to every single unique block builds just bcs of that one particular pve tank guy.
Did he even manage to drop you under 90% health? I highly doubt that. Once in every Feracious Leap maybe, but that's just that. And you are glass cannon.

I don't think any build should require so little skill (just holding right mouse button) and be unkillable unless greatly outnumbered.

Infinite resources is just a bad, bad idea (especially when said thing grants you infinite survivability as well) and dumbs down the gameplay, taking away the whole resource management aspect.


Also, you know very little about my build if you're calling me a glass cannon ^^

My Vigor actually heals over 50% more than your usual rollerblade's Vigor, and my DW/DW setup runs a 30k Barrier that heals me for 1k/second for 30 seconds.

This alone means I can take on multiple attackers and not get bursted down immediately (though that still happens sometimes) and I can outheal most damage dealt to me by a single person. Without even accounting the 25k health, this makes me the opposite of a glass cannon (in fact, your usual rollerblade running around with 19k health and maybe 8-9k Vigor would be closer to that description).

What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.

You're glasscanon because :
-You cant use nirn (or you would lose a lot of dmg)
-You are oos quite fast
Sure, heals that can scale on stamina/wep dmg heals you for a lot but thats the same for every glasscanon build since damages scale on the same stats than heals. Look at our duels for example, whoever won, it was barely more than 30 seconds fights.

@Erondil, @Sublime , let me explain what "glass cannon" means.

Glass cannon is a build that deals tons of damage, but is extremely squishy.

Someone who has more health & stronger heals than others is the very opposite of "squishy".


For further emphasis:
Your typical rollerblade can die in 0,1 seconds and is more likely unable to outheal damage from multiple sources (e.g. when focused on in 1vX scenario).

Sustain has nothing to do with being a "glass cannon", only TTK on both you & your opponent(s) does.

If I die after 30-60 seconds due to running out of stamina, that's better than dying in <0,1 seconds when it comes to determining whether someone is a glass cannon.


Also @Erondil, I could swap 3 Infused enchants (on large parts) for Nirnhoned and lose around 600 stamina (2% damage), but since Nirnhoned is getting nerfed next patch I don't feel like wasting money (this way I'm also getting practice for what's to come).

I know what glass canon is, thanks, but what you don't seem to understand is that "squishy" isnt only about your amount of hp or what your hots heals you for. You have 25k hp, 5k more than the standard stam nb, but you have what... 30k spell resist less? Your 5k hp wont change anything, if you stand in front of me, I can easily 3-4 hit you (by only using concelead weapon) while I would 5-6 hit a nirn medium armor user with 20k hp. Also, your vigor might heals you for 12k, but its your only heal (not counting barrier because its a 200 cost ultimate so you cant use it in a duel before ~1 minute of fight) while others stamblade usually run rally which can give an huge instant heal. The use of rally also give them an overall higher hps (if they unlocked vigor ofc) eventhough their stamina/wep dmg are lower than your. On top of that, you can't use your defensive tools (heal, rolldodge...) as much as others so you're definitely squishy for me.
Also you are running a full damage setup so your damage are extremly high : you're glasscanon and, as said again you could easily notice it with the duration of our duels : whoever win, they barely last more than 30 seconds when duels agaisnt good stamblades not glasscanon (Blazemaster when he was still playing or Liberate) last several minutes.
No, squishy isnt only about health pool and one tooltip

Are we talking about duels only, or normal PvP?

Because in normal PvP (and in duels only once so far by a sorc combo which I could've avoided) I never get one shot, where as I do that on a regular basis to every rollerblade with 20k health I spot in Cyrodiil.

I can have 6-7 people focus on me & not go down in an instant thanks to the significantly higher Vigor tooltip.

The problem with Rally spamming is that you have to stop to cast it (same with Vigor, but that is only every 5 seconds), meaning that you can get bursted down on that second by good players (because you are squishy).

Also, I actually get more healing from one Vigor than someone playing a rollerblade gets from one Vigor+Rally.


Sustain build is exactly what it is: a sustain build.

Doesn't change the fact that it is extremely vulnerable to burst damage, making it a glass "cannon".

Should that burst damage not materialize however, sustain build gets the obvious advantage (the longer the fight goes on).

Almost whenever I see you, you instagib (or try to) someone and then you try to dodge/cloak away while i whip you death.

Yes, that's the life of a stamina NB in a nutshell.

If you can't roll dodge and/or cloak to avoid attacks, you're just dying a slow death when in a 1vX scenario and there's not much to be done about it, unless you can instagib all of the attackers (before they get heals) without cloak or sneak attacks, which isn't particularly easy vs half the Banana Squad :P

Maybe a Stamina glass cannon NB with no SR and hitpoints.

DKs that do nothing but hold block while spamming whip and invasion are annoying though. I can't think of a more boring or skilless style of play. No reactions or counters needed, 1 damage + 1 gap closer while holding block and the occasional GDB.

I usually just fear > retreating manuevers > sprint away and see if they can match my cardio unless my favorite healbot is around ( =

No trust me, when you're snared with a DK taped to your arse, getting jesus beamed from 2-3 players & curses/detonations cast on you, you're not going to survive even with nirn (which I don't wear simply to practice for 1.7).

My Nightblade actually has 5-7k more hitpoints than your usual rollerblade running around with drink rather than food, and I could get the same amount of spell resistance if I could be bothered to craft those nirn pieces (only to replace them in a month or so). I guess it wouldn't be a big deal considering the 5 million gold I have, but this is good practice for 1.7.

Ehm... pick your fights better?

DDuke wrote: »

No trust me, when you're snared with a DK taped to your arse, getting jesus beamed from 2-3 players & curses/detonations cast on you, you're not going to survive even with nirn (which I don't wear simply to practice for 1.7).

My Nightblade actually has 5-7k more hitpoints than your usual rollerblade running around with drink rather than food, and I could get the same amount of spell resistance if I could be bothered to craft those nirn pieces (only to replace them in a month or so). I guess it wouldn't be a big deal considering the 5 million gold I have, but this is good practice for 1.7 (or maybe just an excuse for my laziness, idk )

Well as a NB the choice of engagement is always yours to initiate. I'm sure as hell not going to try to start up a 1vX against a DK, Sorc, Templar combo unless they're all looking atrociously bad.

I was just saying, when you get that lone DK cracking the whip on you, escape isn't too difficult. Fear> retreating + sprint with a well timed dodge roll to avoid the invasion usually works for me. It's the unnoticed sorc whacking me in the back of the head a fragment just as I think I'm in the clear that usually screws things up for me. It's not that easy killing a V14 sorc stacking shields as Vet 6 with only 1000 weapon damage ) =

These recent changes are clear indications of ZOS' absolute misunderstanding of this game.

With each new update, balance is revised, never refined. Complete mechanic changes this late into the game are absolutely pathetic and it shows that ZOS really doesnt know what to do.

They have a deep misunderstanding of end game play, and honestly its getting old and depressing.

I am probably gonna check this new update out, but honestly i think im done with ESO. Been here for over and year and have seen all the changes take place. ZOS clearly is heading in the WRONG direction. Maybe Sage knew that too....

DDuke wrote: »

Lesspa wrote: »

These recent changes are clear indications of ZOS' absolute misunderstanding of this game.

With each new update, balance is revised, never refined. Complete mechanic changes this late into the game are absolutely pathetic and it shows that ZOS really doesnt know what to do.

They have a deep misunderstanding of end game play, and honestly its getting old and depressing.

I am probably gonna check this new update out, but honestly i think im done with ESO. Been here for over and year and have seen all the changes take place. ZOS clearly is heading in the WRONG direction. Maybe Sage knew that too....

I'm actually of the opinion they know exactly what's wrong with the game currently.

• Permablockers
• Infinite dodge
• Sorcs' fail-safe button BoL/Streak
• Instagibbing

All getting fixed. How is this bad for the game, if I may ask?

Sure, there's some more on the list such as 15-20k dmg shields & shieldstacking, but they may very well have something for those as well (we know barely a fraction of the changes coming in 1.7)

I wish people would stop saying we don't even know if it's.coming because IT IS coming

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lesspa wrote: »

These recent changes are clear indications of ZOS' absolute misunderstanding of this game.

With each new update, balance is revised, never refined. Complete mechanic changes this late into the game are absolutely pathetic and it shows that ZOS really doesnt know what to do.

They have a deep misunderstanding of end game play, and honestly its getting old and depressing.

I am probably gonna check this new update out, but honestly i think im done with ESO. Been here for over and year and have seen all the changes take place. ZOS clearly is heading in the WRONG direction. Maybe Sage knew that too....

Its a little bit early for such an observation if you ask me. For all we know the game may be perfectly balanced after these changes, we simply dont know because we havent tried it yet. ZOS has tested it and I think it could be a step in the right direction because it removes some of the extremes in the game which cause balance issues. Such as unlimited streak, block and dodge roll > this was a wish of the entire pvp community so why complain when they try to fix it?

Because the problem was never about unlimited sheild spam, unlimited bolt escape spam, unlimited dodgeroll spam, etc.

The problem is unlimited resource builds that are possible due to the removal of softcaps and insanely high regen rates

ZOS is not addressing the root of the problems at all. The fact there is no cap on weapon damage, spell damage, health, magic, or stamina regen, and folks can raise their max stamina/magic as high as they want, they proposed changes will do very little to help anything.

As long as there is no caps in place on those things, nothing will change.

They could leave Dodge roll and those skills alone and jsut set reasonable caps on regen and spell/weapon damage like we had in 1.5 and pvp would not be the mess it currently is. BWB is popular for a reason, but what i have seen of this update so far tells me the people working on it simply aren;'t paying attention.

Ezareth wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sanct16 wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sublime wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.

Out of curiousity: What's your Stamina Regeneration?

1.3K. How is my stamina regen relevant to this topic at all?

My reply was to @Soris, who (mistakengly) called me a glass cannon.

It's not, I was just curious and thought I might ask.
Apart from that it helps me understanding the different types of glass-cannons.

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Soris wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).

Potions? Puhahaha. Dude don't be ridiculous. Only newcomers believe that.
Every single thing in your quote is untrue
Come on...

Next time I see one of these permablocker scumbags people I'll record a video, just for you

Also, helping hands passive with 30-40k stamina equals to 1000-1500 stam regen if you use an Earthen Heart ability every 5 seconds (fairly realistic).

Man.. You clearly know nothing other than firing arrows from stealth sorry.
I will quote this again,

DDuke wrote: »

Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).

How can these be even possible??

Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.

If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.

Whisper me in game, I can give you name of one of these I've been seeing a lot in Haderus. Can't do it here due to naming&shaming.

Watched him tank 4 jesus beams & several other people for minutes. When he finally died, he was still blocking.

I even fought the same person at a resource once. He was tanking every single NPC at the resource (I kid you not) and my WW damage (transformed into WW to fear+howl him for instagib) with infinite CC immunity for well over a minute (still blocking when he died).

Not an emperor by the way.

And I've seen similar play by many others, but this one person just pops up every time I think about permablockers ^^


Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).

People just aren't experimenting enough, good example is stamina DKs.

Everyone hypes stamina NBs, but truth is that stamina DK has just as much, if not more potential (rationale: only class with access to Minor Brutality buff, only class with Physical dmg ultimate meaning +25% dmg from Mighty, Helping Hands etc).

Come on now. Don't compare regular block builds with extreme tank builds. You can not call nerfs to every single unique block builds just bcs of that one particular pve tank guy.
Did he even manage to drop you under 90% health? I highly doubt that. Once in every Feracious Leap maybe, but that's just that. And you are glass cannon.

I don't think any build should require so little skill (just holding right mouse button) and be unkillable unless greatly outnumbered.

Infinite resources is just a bad, bad idea (especially when said thing grants you infinite survivability as well) and dumbs down the gameplay, taking away the whole resource management aspect.


Also, you know very little about my build if you're calling me a glass cannon ^^

My Vigor actually heals over 50% more than your usual rollerblade's Vigor, and my DW/DW setup runs a 30k Barrier that heals me for 1k/second for 30 seconds.

This alone means I can take on multiple attackers and not get bursted down immediately (though that still happens sometimes) and I can outheal most damage dealt to me by a single person. Without even accounting the 25k health, this makes me the opposite of a glass cannon (in fact, your usual rollerblade running around with 19k health and maybe 8-9k Vigor would be closer to that description).

What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.

You're glasscanon because :
-You cant use nirn (or you would lose a lot of dmg)
-You are oos quite fast
Sure, heals that can scale on stamina/wep dmg heals you for a lot but thats the same for every glasscanon build since damages scale on the same stats than heals. Look at our duels for example, whoever won, it was barely more than 30 seconds fights.

@Erondil, @Sublime , let me explain what "glass cannon" means.

Glass cannon is a build that deals tons of damage, but is extremely squishy.

Someone who has more health & stronger heals than others is the very opposite of "squishy".


For further emphasis:
Your typical rollerblade can die in 0,1 seconds and is more likely unable to outheal damage from multiple sources (e.g. when focused on in 1vX scenario).

Sustain has nothing to do with being a "glass cannon", only TTK on both you & your opponent(s) does.

If I die after 30-60 seconds due to running out of stamina, that's better than dying in <0,1 seconds when it comes to determining whether someone is a glass cannon.


Also @Erondil, I could swap 3 Infused enchants (on large parts) for Nirnhoned and lose around 600 stamina (2% damage), but since Nirnhoned is getting nerfed next patch I don't feel like wasting money (this way I'm also getting practice for what's to come).

I know what glass canon is, thanks, but what you don't seem to understand is that "squishy" isnt only about your amount of hp or what your hots heals you for. You have 25k hp, 5k more than the standard stam nb, but you have what... 30k spell resist less? Your 5k hp wont change anything, if you stand in front of me, I can easily 3-4 hit you (by only using concelead weapon) while I would 5-6 hit a nirn medium armor user with 20k hp. Also, your vigor might heals you for 12k, but its your only heal (not counting barrier because its a 200 cost ultimate so you cant use it in a duel before ~1 minute of fight) while others stamblade usually run rally which can give an huge instant heal. The use of rally also give them an overall higher hps (if they unlocked vigor ofc) eventhough their stamina/wep dmg are lower than your. On top of that, you can't use your defensive tools (heal, rolldodge...) as much as others so you're definitely squishy for me.
Also you are running a full damage setup so your damage are extremly high : you're glasscanon and, as said again you could easily notice it with the duration of our duels : whoever win, they barely last more than 30 seconds when duels agaisnt good stamblades not glasscanon (Blazemaster when he was still playing or Liberate) last several minutes.
No, squishy isnt only about health pool and one tooltip

Are we talking about duels only, or normal PvP?

Because in normal PvP (and in duels only once so far by a sorc combo which I could've avoided) I never get one shot, where as I do that on a regular basis to every rollerblade with 20k health I spot in Cyrodiil.

I can have 6-7 people focus on me & not go down in an instant thanks to the significantly higher Vigor tooltip.

The problem with Rally spamming is that you have to stop to cast it (same with Vigor, but that is only every 5 seconds), meaning that you can get bursted down on that second by good players (because you are squishy).

Also, I actually get more healing from one Vigor than someone playing a rollerblade gets from one Vigor+Rally.


Sustain build is exactly what it is: a sustain build.

Doesn't change the fact that it is extremely vulnerable to burst damage, making it a glass "cannon".

Should that burst damage not materialize however, sustain build gets the obvious advantage (the longer the fight goes on).

Almost whenever I see you, you instagib (or try to) someone and then you try to dodge/cloak away while i whip you death.

Yes, that's the life of a stamina NB in a nutshell.

If you can't roll dodge and/or cloak to avoid attacks, you're just dying a slow death when in a 1vX scenario and there's not much to be done about it, unless you can instagib all of the attackers (before they get heals) without cloak or sneak attacks, which isn't particularly easy vs half the Banana Squad :P

Maybe a Stamina glass cannon NB with no SR and hitpoints.

DKs that do nothing but hold block while spamming whip and invasion are annoying though. I can't think of a more boring or skilless style of play. No reactions or counters needed, 1 damage + 1 gap closer while holding block and the occasional GDB.

I usually just fear > retreating manuevers > sprint away and see if they can match my cardio unless my favorite healbot is around ( =

Maneu

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lesspa wrote: »

These recent changes are clear indications of ZOS' absolute misunderstanding of this game.

With each new update, balance is revised, never refined. Complete mechanic changes this late into the game are absolutely pathetic and it shows that ZOS really doesnt know what to do.

They have a deep misunderstanding of end game play, and honestly its getting old and depressing.

I am probably gonna check this new update out, but honestly i think im done with ESO. Been here for over and year and have seen all the changes take place. ZOS clearly is heading in the WRONG direction. Maybe Sage knew that too....

Its a little bit early for such an observation if you ask me. For all we know the game may be perfectly balanced after these changes, we simply dont know because we havent tried it yet. ZOS has tested it and I think it could be a step in the right direction because it removes some of the extremes in the game which cause balance issues. Such as unlimited streak, block and dodge roll > this was a wish of the entire pvp community so why complain when they try to fix it?

Because the problem was never about unlimited sheild spam, unlimited bolt escape spam, unlimited dodgeroll spam, etc.

The problem is unlimited resource builds that are possible due to the removal of softcaps and insanely high regen rates

ZOS is not addressing the root of the problems at all. The fact there is no cap on weapon damage, spell damage, health, magic, or stamina regen, and folks can raise their max stamina/magic as high as they want, they proposed changes will do very little to help anything.

As long as there is no caps in place on those things, nothing will change.

They could leave Dodge roll and those skills alone and jsut set reasonable caps on regen and spell/weapon damage like we had in 1.5 and pvp would not be the mess it currently is. BWB is popular for a reason, but what i have seen of this update so far tells me the people working on it simply aren;'t paying attention.

Wrong. I already had infinity ressources back in 1.5. Oh yeah, Magicka build ofc.

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Lesspa wrote: »

These recent changes are clear indications of ZOS' absolute misunderstanding of this game.

With each new update, balance is revised, never refined. Complete mechanic changes this late into the game are absolutely pathetic and it shows that ZOS really doesnt know what to do.

They have a deep misunderstanding of end game play, and honestly its getting old and depressing.

I am probably gonna check this new update out, but honestly i think im done with ESO. Been here for over and year and have seen all the changes take place. ZOS clearly is heading in the WRONG direction. Maybe Sage knew that too....

Its a little bit early for such an observation if you ask me. For all we know the game may be perfectly balanced after these changes, we simply dont know because we havent tried it yet. ZOS has tested it and I think it could be a step in the right direction because it removes some of the extremes in the game which cause balance issues. Such as unlimited streak, block and dodge roll > this was a wish of the entire pvp community so why complain when they try to fix it?

Because the problem was never about unlimited sheild spam, unlimited bolt escape spam, unlimited dodgeroll spam, etc.

The problem is unlimited resource builds that are possible due to the removal of softcaps and insanely high regen rates

ZOS is not addressing the root of the problems at all. The fact there is no cap on weapon damage, spell damage, health, magic, or stamina regen, and folks can raise their max stamina/magic as high as they want, they proposed changes will do very little to help anything.

As long as there is no caps in place on those things, nothing will change.

They could leave Dodge roll and those skills alone and jsut set reasonable caps on regen and spell/weapon damage like we had in 1.5 and pvp would not be the mess it currently is. BWB is popular for a reason, but what i have seen of this update so far tells me the people working on it simply aren;'t paying attention.

Removal of "Caps" was never the issue. People incorrectly associate this with the problems we're facing today. Caps are a design crutch used by developers who can't correctly achieve balance through other more complex solutions.

The real issue is the availability of compounding low opportunity cost regeneration.

The entire theif tree in champion point system is devoted to making your spells and abilities more efficient and increasing your regen. *Everyone* has to spend points in this tree and the choices are not really choices. We all just become increasingly efficient over time.

The cost reduction champion abilities were designed appropriately since the Cost reduction abilities in the champion system all happen *after* everything else does.

The regen changes however scale much higher (24% versus 18/15.8%) and are multiplicative with all other sources of regen.

Additionally you have the changes to tri-pot potions which give you freaking 20% regeneration across the board to all of your resources with virtually 100% uptime during combat.

On top of all of this they changed drink to be vastly superior to food and it is also multiplicative with all of your other regen increasing multipliers.

To fix the unlimited resource issue they should do the following:

• Make the champion system regen additive with all other sources of regen, not multiplicative
• Add the benefits of Drink and Attronach Mundus after all other multipliers are done, not before
• Change tripots back to a static regeneration amount that doesn't multiply with all of your other sources of regeneration
• Split Stamina Cost reduction enchants into Dodge Roll/Break free/Block Cost Reduction and Stamina Cost Reduction

These changes would not greatly impact players who are not already stacking multiple sources of regeneration without having to resort to heavy handed approaches like artificial caps.

One of the basic concepts of proper game design is ensuring resource manage is both easy for your players to understand and meaningful. It doesn't make sense to have a cost to an ability if that cost is always negligible because the resource is limitless. If a player is determined to make the costs of their abilities so low or their resource generation so high that their ability costs aren't meaningful then the tradeoff should be that those abilities are weak or ineffective. Currently this isn't the case. You don't sacrifice much to have unlimited resources and you can still do 85-90% of the damage of a player who is fully damage specced.

ZoS choosing to begin adding cost increases on successive uses of certain abilities says they are unable to correctly balance their abilities and resources and instead are resorting to a major design philosophy change by adding cooldowns to these abilities. That is basically what adding successive cost increases on a set timer are.....cooldowns

I also think they are having difficulty balancing the game for PvE and PvP with the same system. Current across the board multipliers to damage/healing/shields etc are just poor design, but easy to accomplish programmatically.

Well, softcaps didn't really prevent many people from having nearly infinite resources, true. However, they kinda made people opt for more balanced builds, which unfortunately ended with everyone using nearly the same gear.

The problem for me atm is really with infinite resources. I think it lies within the champion system and it's interaction with the rest of the game (more CP, more stats, costs remain the same... passives from CPs reduce them even further, give you more regen).

For me the real test of skill between two players should be who drains the resources of the other person quicker (who manages their resources better) and has an ulti+skills combo available for that moment the other one is low.... but when everyone has infinite resources, resource management doesn't really matter anymore. This takes away an edge stronger players are supposed to have and makes weaker players seem stronger What we need is a change that makes resource management difficult and not some cosmetic ability-cost nerf experienced players will quickly find a workaround to.

And the CP system is just.. meh, but that's another topic!