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Bolt Escape / Dodge / Blocking / Shields Nerf
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Francescolg✭✭✭✭
Don't waste your time arguing with players who claim that Max-HP templar builds are viable^^Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).
This isn't good btw. I did try it in pts with 3200 CP. Maximum you can have is like 50k hp and 16k shield with so-so gear. I guess you can go up to 60k health with better gear and Cyro buffs. Also I did its smaller version in live server with 200 cp. Your other stats become terrible even with 3200 cp. And no need to mention nirn I guess.
It could be good in 1.7 when nirn fixed but..welp shield nerfs again..
This is claimed mostly by team-players who have other healers helping them, who do not rely on mobility. Atm, we do not know if the next-patch is going to affect Blazing Shield's %-value
A Blazing Shield (Pala style) Templar is not as strong as depicted and it comes with a Malus. Btw the overall incoming damage will stay at "high rates", as they are just nurfing the symptoms and good gankers, who before did 25k in one bow shot, will now do a slightly nurfed 15-18k, and they will still go through your armor values&absorb shields in a matter of seconds, no matter how many CPs you got, no matter if your Blazing Shield is 7k or 13k.. Combine this with the anulment of physical armor (DW hammers) and the nurf of our "two strongest" skills in 1.6 (80% stamina regen group buff, AoE disorient) and the inc nurf to Radiant Destruction, etc. etc
Many templars tried to max. their Blazing Shield after 1.6/2.0 but you'll see just a few running those builds.Edited by Francescolg on July 5, 2015 12:00PM3 -
Master_Kas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Master_Kas wrote: »Lol. To the sorcs crying to give cloak same treatment as bolt :
Lets make some skill make you unable to bolt (like piercing mark does to cloak) and on top of that, so AoE damage stops you from bolting.
Overall good nerfs. Shieldstackers, permarollers and permablockers tears taste good.
Like Piercing Mark?
So you would give Sorcs a skill that makes only them always Bolt Escape automatically with the target when it uses Bolt Escape - to stay in range?
And on top of that Cloak gets more expensive with every cast.
Sounds super fun, deal.
Yea and dont skip the fun part, ANY class using aoe close to the sorcerer trying to bolt "breaks" the bolt
Deal ?
Edit: I'm no magicka NB so I dont spam cloak, in fine with cost increase on it Edited by Master_Kas on July 5, 2015 12:44PMEU | PC0 -
ToRelax✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Master_Kas wrote: »Master_Kas wrote: »Lol. To the sorcs crying to give cloak same treatment as bolt :
Lets make some skill make you unable to bolt (like piercing mark does to cloak) and on top of that, so AoE damage stops you from bolting.
Overall good nerfs. Shieldstackers, permarollers and permablockers tears taste good.
Like Piercing Mark?
So you would give Sorcs a skill that makes only them always Bolt Escape automatically with the target when it uses Bolt Escape - to stay in range?
And on top of that Cloak gets more expensive with every cast.
Sounds super fun, deal.
Yea and dont skip the fun part, ANY class using aoe close to the sorcerer trying to bolt "breaks" the bolt Deal ?
Edit: I'm no magicka NB so I dont spam cloak, in fine with cost increase on it
I am not sure how to do the AoE part. Bolt Escape has no duration, you could be teleported back at best.
Like, if your Bolt Escape cost penalty is currently active, you'd get teleported back to where you casted it the last time should you get hit by an AoE attack. Oh, I can already see the NB rage when they fear me 20m away.
DAGON - ALTADOON - CHIM - GHARTOK
The Covenant is broken. The Enemy has won...
Elo'dryel - Sorc - AR 50 - Hopesfire - EP EU1 -
Master_Kas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Master_Kas wrote: »Master_Kas wrote: »Lol. To the sorcs crying to give cloak same treatment as bolt :
Lets make some skill make you unable to bolt (like piercing mark does to cloak) and on top of that, so AoE damage stops you from bolting.
Overall good nerfs. Shieldstackers, permarollers and permablockers tears taste good.
Like Piercing Mark?
So you would give Sorcs a skill that makes only them always Bolt Escape automatically with the target when it uses Bolt Escape - to stay in range?
And on top of that Cloak gets more expensive with every cast.
Sounds super fun, deal.
Yea and dont skip the fun part, ANY class using aoe close to the sorcerer trying to bolt "breaks" the bolt Deal ?
Edit: I'm no magicka NB so I dont spam cloak, in fine with cost increase on it
I am not sure how to do the AoE part. Bolt Escape has no duration, you could be teleported back at best.
Like, if your Bolt Escape cost penalty is currently active, you'd get teleported back to where you casted it the last time should you get hit by an AoE attack. Oh, I can already see the NB rage when they fear me 20m away.
Haha yes the rage would be epic . Dont get me wrong the new nerf to bolt/streak im totally against.
Only thing I dislike (except the 2 new vr's and be nerf) is that there is no cost increase/no manaregen penalty when spamming shields. That will make shieldstacking the most effective , active way of migating damage.
And we both know who got the best shieldstacking ingame
I think sorcs and mana nbs will be on top of the foodchain in that update. Good players (like you) will adapt. The masses will look for the new meta/FOTM.
Sorry again if My english writing isn't the best ^^
Edit 2: now when I think about it , Im afraid of the penalty on blocking since I'm leveling a new DK . RIP My new dk
Edited by Master_Kas on July 5, 2015 2:00PMEU | PC1 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭One point I'd like to note unrelated to PvP that I noticed while levelling my NB. Normal movement speeds in this game while doing PvE are terribly boring. I enjoyed being able to constantly sprint on my NB everywhere (mounting + dismounting just take too long when you need to travel short distances). The same was true on my Sorc when I unlocked Bolt Escape. These PvP changes just make Sorc that much less fun to play across the board. I really wish they'd make the bolt escape (and dodge roll) nerf only occur in Cyrodiil to save the carebear players the pain.They said something about buffing melee dmg, so i think of like 5-10% (?), also i will get some more CP to get more dmg until the next Patch.
Overall i don´t think my current DMG will change..
Anyway I will lose Whitestrake and the ability to dodge whenever i please since dodge is barely relyable in 1vX - meaning i will nearly lose all of my defense.
I stopped counting how many times i get hit by charges, melee stamina attacks like WB or Surprise Attacks etc. in midroll.. just annoying.
Not saying the change wasn´t needed, but if i spend so "much" Stamina I want it to work correctly.
But I´m looking forward to the whole patch notes since Im thinking of changing my build instead of running my currently one.
I feel sorry for all these DKs and Templar running S&B.. no escape mechanics and standing mid fight every time, but can barely defend themselves.. gg. Blocking in the next patch is like giving your enemy time to recover.
Streak nerf.. hm.. not sure about it but it wasn´t needed. Gap Closer as counter, easy as that.
Sooo what about we all wait since it wasn´t everything? :P
@LegendaryMage
I dare you to run NB. You will find ya sorc build
I only block on my sorc reactively. You learn when to recognize when you must block and when you should let an attack hit you. I think these block "spammers" will just have to learn to play similarly. Additionally, truly skilled players will learn to block in between regen ticks so they can still at least partially hold block.
You block on your sorc reactively because you have 10k shields you can cast on yourself over and over again, That is your form of block..someone who's dedicated to Block is blocking because its the main defense they have, just like a Dodge Rollers main defense is Dodging.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos6 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
1.3K. How is my stamina regen relevant to this topic at all?
My reply was to @Soris, who (mistakengly) called me a glass cannon.
It's not, I was just curious and thought I might ask.
Apart from that it helps me understanding the different types of glass-cannons.
You're glasscanon because :
Man.. You clearly know nothing other than firing arrows from stealth sorry.
Potions? Puhahaha. Dude don't be ridiculous. Only newcomers believe that.Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).
Every single thing in your quote is untrue
Come on...
Next time I see one of these permablocker scumbags people I'll record a video, just for you
Also, helping hands passive with 30-40k stamina equals to 1000-1500 stam regen if you use an Earthen Heart ability every 5 seconds (fairly realistic).
I will quote this again,
How can these be even possible??Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).
Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.
If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.
Whisper me in game, I can give you name of one of these I've been seeing a lot in Haderus. Can't do it here due to naming&shaming.
Watched him tank 4 jesus beams & several other people for minutes. When he finally died, he was still blocking.
I even fought the same person at a resource once. He was tanking every single NPC at the resource (I kid you not) and my WW damage (transformed into WW to fear+howl him for instagib) with infinite CC immunity for well over a minute (still blocking when he died).
Not an emperor by the way.
And I've seen similar play by many others, but this one person just pops up every time I think about permablockers ^^
Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).
People just aren't experimenting enough, good example is stamina DKs.
Everyone hypes stamina NBs, but truth is that stamina DK has just as much, if not more potential (rationale: only class with access to Minor Brutality buff, only class with Physical dmg ultimate meaning +25% dmg from Mighty, Helping Hands etc).
Come on now. Don't compare regular block builds with extreme tank builds. You can not call nerfs to every single unique block builds just bcs of that one particular pve tank guy.
Did he even manage to drop you under 90% health? I highly doubt that. Once in every Feracious Leap maybe, but that's just that. And you are glass cannon.
I don't think any build should require so little skill (just holding right mouse button) and be unkillable unless greatly outnumbered.
Infinite resources is just a bad, bad idea (especially when said thing grants you infinite survivability as well) and dumbs down the gameplay, taking away the whole resource management aspect.
Also, you know very little about my build if you're calling me a glass cannon ^^
My Vigor actually heals over 50% more than your usual rollerblade's Vigor, and my DW/DW setup runs a 30k Barrier that heals me for 1k/second for 30 seconds.
This alone means I can take on multiple attackers and not get bursted down immediately (though that still happens sometimes) and I can outheal most damage dealt to me by a single person. Without even accounting the 25k health, this makes me the opposite of a glass cannon (in fact, your usual rollerblade running around with 19k health and maybe 8-9k Vigor would be closer to that description).
What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.
-You cant use nirn (or you would lose a lot of dmg)
-You are oos quite fast
Sure, heals that can scale on stamina/wep dmg heals you for a lot but thats the same for every glasscanon build since damages scale on the same stats than heals. Look at our duels for example, whoever won, it was barely more than 30 seconds fights.
@Erondil, @Sublime , let me explain what "glass cannon" means.
Glass cannon is a build that deals tons of damage, but is extremely squishy.
Someone who has more health & stronger heals than others is the very opposite of "squishy".
For further emphasis:
Your typical rollerblade can die in 0,1 seconds and is more likely unable to outheal damage from multiple sources (e.g. when focused on in 1vX scenario).
Sustain has nothing to do with being a "glass cannon", only TTK on both you & your opponent(s) does.
If I die after 30-60 seconds due to running out of stamina, that's better than dying in <0,1 seconds when it comes to determining whether someone is a glass cannon.
Also @Erondil, I could swap 3 Infused enchants (on large parts) for Nirnhoned and lose around 600 stamina (2% damage), but since Nirnhoned is getting nerfed next patch I don't feel like wasting money (this way I'm also getting practice for what's to come).Edited by DDuke on July 5, 2015 2:59PM0 -
TheBucket✭✭✭✭One of the biggest changes people wont understand till it starts happening is animation canceling with block will hurt a lot of magic classes.William Reignes
Magic Nightblade - Rogue Bomber
Creator of Thirsty Thief Build (Retired 1.5)0 -
Rust_in_Peace✭✭✭✭✭They really don't like players being able to 1vX people... I think I'd rather go back to WoW battlegrounds at this point before I play another minute in ESO.
Or maybe Guild Wars 2! I hear they shook up the pvp meta in that game recently.Edited by Rust_in_Peace on July 5, 2015 3:33PM1 -
Kupoking✭✭✭✭✭houimetub17_ESO wrote: »Would have rather seen a 25-30 percent dmg redux instead so that the dmg you deal sticks and isnt washed away immediately by tons of heals.
Shield nerf is going to prevent someone stacking shield over its own hp value and will make it harder to 1vX. In a 1v1, no big changes. Heck I was able to get a 37k shield on my templar with only blazing shield, resto staff bubble and 33k hp. Imagine now with whitestrake
Collateral blazing shield damage nerf sucks a lot as it was a nice ability for true pvp tanks to go toe to toe vs multiple enemies while surviving and keeping pressure on them.
One shot willies nb wont be able to do as well as before or will have to sacrifice much more to get enough dmg to do so.
Cloak nb abilities will have the upper hand compared to roll dodgers and streakers now.
Armor and dodge increasing abilities will be more used.
Heal overtime will be more cost effective due to hp/damage comparison now.
healing got nerfed too. Read the thread.
I did read the thread. Dont be a smartass assuming I have not.
The fact that healing is still on par with damage doesnt not make sense if ZoS wants to get rid of 'health bars doing up and down too much'.
Right now damage does not stick. I can execute a perfect burst-combo, if the enemy is still alive he will heal himself almost instantly.
By going with 30% dmg reduc and 50 heal redux, you make dmg stick more was my point.
am I clear now or I have to explain more so you finally understand?2 -
Kronosphere✭✭✭✭just had a thought. caltrops v cloakers is gonna be realllly nice.~House Indoril~
Submit to the three, the spirits and thy lords.2 -
Garion✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kronosphere wrote: »just had a thought. caltrops v cloakers is gonna be realllly nice.
Not particularly. The insane speed boosts NBs can give themselves is enough to get out of caltrops range in no time at all.Lastobeth - VR16 Sorc - PvP Rank 41 (AD)
Lastoblyat - VR16 Templar - PvP Rank 14 (AD)
Ninja Pete - VR16 NB - PvP Rank 10 (AD)
Labo the Banana Slayer - VR14 Sorc - PvP Rank 12 (EP)
Member of Banana Squad | Officer of Arena4 -
Fizzlewizzle✭✭✭✭I'm most worried about how Templars will get out of this.
Will percentage based skills be influenced by the Battle spirit buff?
If yes, then templars get multiple 75% nerfs, as they have skills that use a percentage of the damage they do as healing, or a percentage of their shields as damage.
If Percentage based skills don't count then they will receive (still) quite a few nerfs, but also a major boost (like some other classes).
Classes like DK and NB have percentage based healing, based on the resource pool rather than damage dealt (unlike puncturing sweep).
At the same time Templars have a health based Shield, as well as damage skill. Both aspects are percentage based, so where other classes would get a damage and shield nerf, Templars would remain unchanged.
I'm curious...
Mending-The-Wounded, Aldmeri Dominion, Templar.1 -
RedTalon✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nonamesbutmineub17_ESO wrote: »Invincible Nightblade army incoming.
Immovable + mirage + rally
Sounds like my bed, will have to mix in mirage now!0 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.
If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.
You can't block caltrops. (Anymore)0 -
vichoi✭✭✭I understand ZOS want sorc to stay in the fight instead of running, however, those sorc gave up dps for survibility are rely on BE to stay alive, the BE spam sorcs have far less dps.
Unlike DK and Templar they can tank for a while and wait for ally when outnumber. Sorc need BE to stay alive and wait for help, or they just die.
Also, we don't want to count 4sec to use next bolt, but at the same time we count 3 for curse, count to 4 for DK reflect? I'd rather they put a cooldown, I hate counting in a fight.
If ZOS don't want player to escape from fight, why they nerf sorc but buff NB's cloak, so NB go full dps can run but not an option for dps sorc? It sounds unfair.
'Take away bolt escape and give us a skill to kill ourselves, I don't want to be free AP' just kidding
Btw , I agree BE need a treatment, but please no more COUNTING!!!
2 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
✭I understand ZOS want sorc to stay in the fight instead of running, however, those sorc gave up dps for survibility are rely on BE to stay alive, the BE spam sorcs have far less dps.
Unlike DK and Templar they can tank for a while and wait for ally when outnumber. Sorc need BE to stay alive and wait for help, or they just die.
I can't take you seriously. Both of these are false.
Also, we don't want to count 4sec to use next bolt, but at the same time we count 3 for curse, count to 4 for DK reflect? I'd rather they put a cooldown, I hate counting in a fight.
There's an animation for the 4 seconds already in game.Edited by Domander on July 6, 2015 5:43AM1 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭
if its not drowned in other e.g. burning animations or lasts buggyly forever.I understand ZOS want sorc to stay in the fight instead of running, however, those sorc gave up dps for survibility are rely on BE to stay alive, the BE spam sorcs have far less dps.
Unlike DK and Templar they can tank for a while and wait for ally when outnumber. Sorc need BE to stay alive and wait for help, or they just die.
I can't take you seriously. Both of these are false.
Also, we don't want to count 4sec to use next bolt, but at the same time we count 3 for curse, count to 4 for DK reflect? I'd rather they put a cooldown, I hate counting in a fight.
There's an animation for the 4 seconds already in game.
Edited by Tankqull on July 6, 2015 8:32AMspelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
AlexDrago✭✭✭
I know, it sounds like offtopic but...LegendaryMage wrote: »
I'm a 7 lv NB now and it's amaising. I just kill mobs. No problems with pets, long cast CF or tiny damage Mage Wrath. No more 'stay away from me' monsters, I just kill them, don't care how much off them. I can close Dark Anchors solo without pleading ' help me please' over Auridon.
Feel myself as a fool - I must rerol to NB 3 month ago when returned to eso, lol.
Hope to get vr1 till weekend, looks like it would be easy with that killing machine.
UPD.
Edited by AlexDrago on July 6, 2015 11:34AMIf you have nothing to say say nothing ©2 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Lava_Croft wrote: »Are all the people claiming to roll a Nightblade for 1.7 the same people who were all going to roll a Templar for 1.6?
Probably, but in this instance they've already been working on their nb for a month or two because it already was the most op class.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points1 -
Erondil✭✭✭✭✭
✭
1.3K. How is my stamina regen relevant to this topic at all?
My reply was to @Soris, who (mistakengly) called me a glass cannon.
It's not, I was just curious and thought I might ask.
Apart from that it helps me understanding the different types of glass-cannons.
You're glasscanon because :
Man.. You clearly know nothing other than firing arrows from stealth sorry.
Potions? Puhahaha. Dude don't be ridiculous. Only newcomers believe that.Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).
Every single thing in your quote is untrue
Come on...
Next time I see one of these permablocker scumbags people I'll record a video, just for you
Also, helping hands passive with 30-40k stamina equals to 1000-1500 stam regen if you use an Earthen Heart ability every 5 seconds (fairly realistic).
I will quote this again,
How can these be even possible??Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).
Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.
If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.
Whisper me in game, I can give you name of one of these I've been seeing a lot in Haderus. Can't do it here due to naming&shaming.
Watched him tank 4 jesus beams & several other people for minutes. When he finally died, he was still blocking.
I even fought the same person at a resource once. He was tanking every single NPC at the resource (I kid you not) and my WW damage (transformed into WW to fear+howl him for instagib) with infinite CC immunity for well over a minute (still blocking when he died).
Not an emperor by the way.
And I've seen similar play by many others, but this one person just pops up every time I think about permablockers ^^
Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).
People just aren't experimenting enough, good example is stamina DKs.
Everyone hypes stamina NBs, but truth is that stamina DK has just as much, if not more potential (rationale: only class with access to Minor Brutality buff, only class with Physical dmg ultimate meaning +25% dmg from Mighty, Helping Hands etc).
Come on now. Don't compare regular block builds with extreme tank builds. You can not call nerfs to every single unique block builds just bcs of that one particular pve tank guy.
Did he even manage to drop you under 90% health? I highly doubt that. Once in every Feracious Leap maybe, but that's just that. And you are glass cannon.
I don't think any build should require so little skill (just holding right mouse button) and be unkillable unless greatly outnumbered.
Infinite resources is just a bad, bad idea (especially when said thing grants you infinite survivability as well) and dumbs down the gameplay, taking away the whole resource management aspect.
Also, you know very little about my build if you're calling me a glass cannon ^^
My Vigor actually heals over 50% more than your usual rollerblade's Vigor, and my DW/DW setup runs a 30k Barrier that heals me for 1k/second for 30 seconds.
This alone means I can take on multiple attackers and not get bursted down immediately (though that still happens sometimes) and I can outheal most damage dealt to me by a single person. Without even accounting the 25k health, this makes me the opposite of a glass cannon (in fact, your usual rollerblade running around with 19k health and maybe 8-9k Vigor would be closer to that description).
What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.
-You cant use nirn (or you would lose a lot of dmg)
-You are oos quite fast
Sure, heals that can scale on stamina/wep dmg heals you for a lot but thats the same for every glasscanon build since damages scale on the same stats than heals. Look at our duels for example, whoever won, it was barely more than 30 seconds fights.
@Erondil, @Sublime , let me explain what "glass cannon" means.
Glass cannon is a build that deals tons of damage, but is extremely squishy.
Someone who has more health & stronger heals than others is the very opposite of "squishy".
For further emphasis:
Your typical rollerblade can die in 0,1 seconds and is more likely unable to outheal damage from multiple sources (e.g. when focused on in 1vX scenario).
Sustain has nothing to do with being a "glass cannon", only TTK on both you & your opponent(s) does.
If I die after 30-60 seconds due to running out of stamina, that's better than dying in <0,1 seconds when it comes to determining whether someone is a glass cannon.
Also @Erondil, I could swap 3 Infused enchants (on large parts) for Nirnhoned and lose around 600 stamina (2% damage), but since Nirnhoned is getting nerfed next patch I don't feel like wasting money (this way I'm also getting practice for what's to come).
I know what glass canon is, thanks, but what you don't seem to understand is that "squishy" isnt only about your amount of hp or what your hots heals you for. You have 25k hp, 5k more than the standard stam nb, but you have what... 30k spell resist less? Your 5k hp wont change anything, if you stand in front of me, I can easily 3-4 hit you (by only using concelead weapon) while I would 5-6 hit a nirn medium armor user with 20k hp. Also, your vigor might heals you for 12k, but its your only heal (not counting barrier because its a 200 cost ultimate so you cant use it in a duel before ~1 minute of fight) while others stamblade usually run rally which can give an huge instant heal. The use of rally also give them an overall higher hps (if they unlocked vigor ofc) eventhough their stamina/wep dmg are lower than your. On top of that, you can't use your defensive tools (heal, rolldodge...) as much as others so you're definitely squishy for me.
Also you are running a full damage setup so your damage are extremly high : you're glasscanon and, as said again you could easily notice it with the duration of our duels : whoever win, they barely last more than 30 seconds when duels agaisnt good stamblades not glasscanon (Blazemaster when he was still playing or Liberate) last several minutes.
No, squishy isnt only about health pool and one tooltip Edited by Erondil on July 6, 2015 12:48PM~retired~
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Dennegor NB AD, AvA 50 Grand Overlord 24/05/2016
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Soulac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
1.3K. How is my stamina regen relevant to this topic at all?
My reply was to @Soris, who (mistakengly) called me a glass cannon.
It's not, I was just curious and thought I might ask.
Apart from that it helps me understanding the different types of glass-cannons.
You're glasscanon because :
Man.. You clearly know nothing other than firing arrows from stealth sorry.
Potions? Puhahaha. Dude don't be ridiculous. Only newcomers believe that.Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).
Every single thing in your quote is untrue
Come on...
Next time I see one of these permablocker scumbags people I'll record a video, just for you
Also, helping hands passive with 30-40k stamina equals to 1000-1500 stam regen if you use an Earthen Heart ability every 5 seconds (fairly realistic).
I will quote this again,
How can these be even possible??Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).
Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.
If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.
Whisper me in game, I can give you name of one of these I've been seeing a lot in Haderus. Can't do it here due to naming&shaming.
Watched him tank 4 jesus beams & several other people for minutes. When he finally died, he was still blocking.
I even fought the same person at a resource once. He was tanking every single NPC at the resource (I kid you not) and my WW damage (transformed into WW to fear+howl him for instagib) with infinite CC immunity for well over a minute (still blocking when he died).
Not an emperor by the way.
And I've seen similar play by many others, but this one person just pops up every time I think about permablockers ^^
Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).
People just aren't experimenting enough, good example is stamina DKs.
Everyone hypes stamina NBs, but truth is that stamina DK has just as much, if not more potential (rationale: only class with access to Minor Brutality buff, only class with Physical dmg ultimate meaning +25% dmg from Mighty, Helping Hands etc).
Come on now. Don't compare regular block builds with extreme tank builds. You can not call nerfs to every single unique block builds just bcs of that one particular pve tank guy.
Did he even manage to drop you under 90% health? I highly doubt that. Once in every Feracious Leap maybe, but that's just that. And you are glass cannon.
I don't think any build should require so little skill (just holding right mouse button) and be unkillable unless greatly outnumbered.
Infinite resources is just a bad, bad idea (especially when said thing grants you infinite survivability as well) and dumbs down the gameplay, taking away the whole resource management aspect.
Also, you know very little about my build if you're calling me a glass cannon ^^
My Vigor actually heals over 50% more than your usual rollerblade's Vigor, and my DW/DW setup runs a 30k Barrier that heals me for 1k/second for 30 seconds.
This alone means I can take on multiple attackers and not get bursted down immediately (though that still happens sometimes) and I can outheal most damage dealt to me by a single person. Without even accounting the 25k health, this makes me the opposite of a glass cannon (in fact, your usual rollerblade running around with 19k health and maybe 8-9k Vigor would be closer to that description).
What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.
-You cant use nirn (or you would lose a lot of dmg)
-You are oos quite fast
Sure, heals that can scale on stamina/wep dmg heals you for a lot but thats the same for every glasscanon build since damages scale on the same stats than heals. Look at our duels for example, whoever won, it was barely more than 30 seconds fights.
@Erondil, @Sublime , let me explain what "glass cannon" means.
Glass cannon is a build that deals tons of damage, but is extremely squishy.
Someone who has more health & stronger heals than others is the very opposite of "squishy".
For further emphasis:
Your typical rollerblade can die in 0,1 seconds and is more likely unable to outheal damage from multiple sources (e.g. when focused on in 1vX scenario).
Sustain has nothing to do with being a "glass cannon", only TTK on both you & your opponent(s) does.
If I die after 30-60 seconds due to running out of stamina, that's better than dying in <0,1 seconds when it comes to determining whether someone is a glass cannon.
Also @Erondil, I could swap 3 Infused enchants (on large parts) for Nirnhoned and lose around 600 stamina (2% damage), but since Nirnhoned is getting nerfed next patch I don't feel like wasting money (this way I'm also getting practice for what's to come).
I know what glass canon is, thanks, but what you don't seem to understand is that "squishy" isnt only about your amount of hp or what your hots heals you for. You have 25k hp, 5k more than the standard stam nb, but you have what... 30k spell resist less? Your 5k hp wont change anything, if you stand in front of me, I can easily 3-4 hit you (by only using concelead weapon) while I would 5-6 hit a nirn medium armor user with 20k hp. Also, your vigor might heals you for 12k, but its your only heal (not counting barrier because its a 200 cost ultimate so you cant use it in a duel before ~1 minute of fight) while others stamblade usually run rally which can give an huge instant heal. The use of rally also give them an overall higher hps (if they unlocked vigor ofc) eventhough their stamina/wep dmg are lower than your. On top of that, you can't use your defensive tools (heal, rolldodge...) as much as others so you're definitely squishy for me.
Also you are running a full damage setup so your damage are extremly high : you're glasscanon and, as said again you could easily notice it with the duration of our duels : whoever win, they barely last more than 30 seconds when duels agaisnt good stamblades not glasscanon (Blazemaster n he was still playing or Liberate) last several minutes.
No, squishy isnt only about health pool and one tooltip
Correct.
Decimus, you're a glass canon while builds like blazemasters or mine got mediocre/high defense achieved by sacrificing some dmg. Your amount of health doesn't matter, it will just prevent you from getting one hitted.
High Dmg and low defense is the definition of a glass canon, don't tell me your defense is anywhere close to a Shield stacking Sorc, whitestrake using NB, perm block DK or heal/ block spamming Templar.
Keep in mind that my dmg is nowhere close to yours, still our duels are rather short.
Every good Magicka NB with Mark will destroy you.
Heal debuff, dodge ignore, cloak negate. You got nothing against it. Same with DKs using potions or whatever.
Your only solution is to kill enemys as fast as possible, relying on your high burst - a glass canon.
Ps: dennegor is a noob
Edited by Soulac on July 6, 2015 1:33PMR.I.P Dawnbreaker / Auriel´s Bow
Member of the Arena Guild and the overpowered Banana Squad.
Nathaerizh aka Cat - Nightblade V16 - EU
- Meow -5 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
1.3K. How is my stamina regen relevant to this topic at all?
My reply was to @Soris, who (mistakengly) called me a glass cannon.
It's not, I was just curious and thought I might ask.
Apart from that it helps me understanding the different types of glass-cannons.
You're glasscanon because :
Man.. You clearly know nothing other than firing arrows from stealth sorry.
Potions? Puhahaha. Dude don't be ridiculous. Only newcomers believe that.Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).
Every single thing in your quote is untrue
Come on...
Next time I see one of these permablocker scumbags people I'll record a video, just for you
Also, helping hands passive with 30-40k stamina equals to 1000-1500 stam regen if you use an Earthen Heart ability every 5 seconds (fairly realistic).
I will quote this again,
How can these be even possible??Sure, you probably won't be able to tank 10 people while maintaining infinite CC immunity & 90% mitigation anymore, but you'll still be able to tank for long periods of time (especially with potions, siphoning attacks or helping hands passive).
Blocking with 50% cost reductions(bracing+fortress) currently cost you 1050 stamina for EACH hit. By saying each hits, it means even light attacks, caltrops ticks etc all counts in. And things like biting jabs counts as 4 hits for each cast which means 4k stamina to block a full duration jabs.
Even with 40k stamina(and I wonder how you get that)you have to nonstop spam Earthen Hearth skills only to neutralize stamina loss in any given 1vX fight. It is no way near practical. Any "perma blocker" who is not a target dummy have not that much stamina and regen. 10k - 20k is what you will have to have some tankiness without losing other stats which 90% of dks currently. So stamina return will be even less.
It's like saying "50k health templars will rekt everyone with blazing shield" which was also your hype before 1.6 released.
Be real please. These are the facts. Add them to your dreams.
If you can't kill a normal block build then it's your own problem. If you mean dedicated tanks, why do you bother with them in first place and alone? Why do they even exists I wonder. They are not in a place we can discuss about or do balance through them.
Whisper me in game, I can give you name of one of these I've been seeing a lot in Haderus. Can't do it here due to naming&shaming.
Watched him tank 4 jesus beams & several other people for minutes. When he finally died, he was still blocking.
I even fought the same person at a resource once. He was tanking every single NPC at the resource (I kid you not) and my WW damage (transformed into WW to fear+howl him for instagib) with infinite CC immunity for well over a minute (still blocking when he died).
Not an emperor by the way.
And I've seen similar play by many others, but this one person just pops up every time I think about permablockers ^^
Also, 50k health+Blazing Shield can still be very effective, that fact hasn't changed at all (and would be even stronger if they hadn't decided to reduce dmg shield strengths by 15%, thanks to feedback of intelligent players).
People just aren't experimenting enough, good example is stamina DKs.
Everyone hypes stamina NBs, but truth is that stamina DK has just as much, if not more potential (rationale: only class with access to Minor Brutality buff, only class with Physical dmg ultimate meaning +25% dmg from Mighty, Helping Hands etc).
Come on now. Don't compare regular block builds with extreme tank builds. You can not call nerfs to every single unique block builds just bcs of that one particular pve tank guy.
Did he even manage to drop you under 90% health? I highly doubt that. Once in every Feracious Leap maybe, but that's just that. And you are glass cannon.
I don't think any build should require so little skill (just holding right mouse button) and be unkillable unless greatly outnumbered.
Infinite resources is just a bad, bad idea (especially when said thing grants you infinite survivability as well) and dumbs down the gameplay, taking away the whole resource management aspect.
Also, you know very little about my build if you're calling me a glass cannon ^^
My Vigor actually heals over 50% more than your usual rollerblade's Vigor, and my DW/DW setup runs a 30k Barrier that heals me for 1k/second for 30 seconds.
This alone means I can take on multiple attackers and not get bursted down immediately (though that still happens sometimes) and I can outheal most damage dealt to me by a single person. Without even accounting the 25k health, this makes me the opposite of a glass cannon (in fact, your usual rollerblade running around with 19k health and maybe 8-9k Vigor would be closer to that description).
What I don't play is a sustain build, I don't have infinite resources because those make me puke in my mouth.
-You cant use nirn (or you would lose a lot of dmg)
-You are oos quite fast
Sure, heals that can scale on stamina/wep dmg heals you for a lot but thats the same for every glasscanon build since damages scale on the same stats than heals. Look at our duels for example, whoever won, it was barely more than 30 seconds fights.
@Erondil, @Sublime , let me explain what "glass cannon" means.
Glass cannon is a build that deals tons of damage, but is extremely squishy.
Someone who has more health & stronger heals than others is the very opposite of "squishy".
For further emphasis:
Your typical rollerblade can die in 0,1 seconds and is more likely unable to outheal damage from multiple sources (e.g. when focused on in 1vX scenario).
Sustain has nothing to do with being a "glass cannon", only TTK on both you & your opponent(s) does.
If I die after 30-60 seconds due to running out of stamina, that's better than dying in <0,1 seconds when it comes to determining whether someone is a glass cannon.
Also @Erondil, I could swap 3 Infused enchants (on large parts) for Nirnhoned and lose around 600 stamina (2% damage), but since Nirnhoned is getting nerfed next patch I don't feel like wasting money (this way I'm also getting practice for what's to come).
I know what glass canon is, thanks, but what you don't seem to understand is that "squishy" isnt only about your amount of hp or what your hots heals you for. You have 25k hp, 5k more than the standard stam nb, but you have what... 30k spell resist less? Your 5k hp wont change anything, if you stand in front of me, I can easily 3-4 hit you (by only using concelead weapon) while I would 5-6 hit a nirn medium armor user with 20k hp. Also, your vigor might heals you for 12k, but its your only heal (not counting barrier because its a 200 cost ultimate so you cant use it in a duel before ~1 minute of fight) while others stamblade usually run rally which can give an huge instant heal. The use of rally also give them an overall higher hps (if they unlocked vigor ofc) eventhough their stamina/wep dmg are lower than your. On top of that, you can't use your defensive tools (heal, rolldodge...) as much as others so you're definitely squishy for me.
Also you are running a full damage setup so your damage are extremly high : you're glasscanon and, as said again you could easily notice it with the duration of our duels : whoever win, they barely last more than 30 seconds when duels agaisnt good stamblades not glasscanon (Blazemaster when he was still playing or Liberate) last several minutes.
No, squishy isnt only about health pool and one tooltip
Are we talking about duels only, or normal PvP?
Because in normal PvP (and in duels only once so far by a sorc combo which I could've avoided) I never get one shot, where as I do that on a regular basis to every rollerblade with 20k health I spot in Cyrodiil.
I can have 6-7 people focus on me & not go down in an instant thanks to the significantly higher Vigor tooltip.
The problem with Rally spamming is that you have to stop to cast it (same with Vigor, but that is only every 5 seconds), meaning that you can get bursted down on that second by good players (because you are squishy).
Also, I actually get more healing from one Vigor than someone playing a rollerblade gets from one Vigor+Rally.
Sustain build is exactly what it is: a sustain build.
Doesn't change the fact that it is extremely vulnerable to burst damage, making it a glass "cannon".
Should that burst damage not materialize however, sustain build gets the obvious advantage (the longer the fight goes on).Edited by DDuke on July 6, 2015 1:15PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Correct.
Decimus, you're a glass canon while builds like blazemasters or mine got mediocre/high defense achieved by sacrificing some dmg. Your amount of health doesn't matter, it will just prevent you from getting one hitted.
High Dmg and low defense is the definition of a glass canon, don't tell me your defense is anywhere close to a Shield stacking Sorc, whitestrake using NB, perm block DK or heal/ block spamming Templar.
Keep in mind that my dmg I'd nowhere close to yours, still our duels are rather short.
Every got Magicka NB with Mark will destroy you.
Heal debuff, dodge ignore, cloak negate. You got nothing against it. Same with DKs using potions or whatever.
Your only solution is to kill enemys as fast as possible, relying on your high burst - a glass canon.
Ps: dennegor is a noob
My defense vs burst damage is more than a rollerblade's, my defense vs sustained dmg (over long time period) is worse than a rollerblade's.
Let's put it that way :P
Also, I go 50/50~ vs magicka NBs (block+Vigor op), but yes those duels are short (can't block forever).Edited by DDuke on July 6, 2015 1:19PM0 -
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Eejit1331✭✭✭
1) stamina build is the worst in the game. Not viable.
2) critical surge nerfed so hard that it's laughable. Sap Essence is God mode compared to this.
3) not close up magicka melee attack like concealed weapon so we are almost forced to stay range.
4) no good non - reflect ability like concealed weapon.
5) we fight at range, but get gap closed so easily with no way to create separation.
6) using bolt escape once or twice waste a huge amount of magicka which only provides a larger amount of damage taken from crit surge.
6) no single spammed range ability like funnel health to proc crystal frag. (most similar would be mages wrath which has a base of 7 damage and funnel health has a base of close to 20, so we are forced to use crushing shock, so we can't us DW for the extra spell damage like NB.
7) no viable self heal.
8) towards the bottom on pve dps so it's hard to get groups. I use my stamina temp for pve and now I'll have to use my OP NB with my very OP cloak and very OP fear since my non damaging bolt escape wasn't allowing NB to two shot me.
Thank God I have multiple toons, but I am furious for the people that do not and they rely on their sorc as their main due to a bunch of cry babies yelling nerf. I can deal with all the degenerates yelling nerf, but for ZIP to fold like they did and completely dismantle a class is just a huge red flag of their incompetent knowledge of their game play. Shame on ZOS for giving in to peer pressure. Now the public knows how weak they are and they will be consistently manipulated by the public.
Only thing worse than all the nerfs is my auto spell check on my android phone. I don't have time to go back and correct the errors, but yeah, sorc is total trash now. Also, if your going to ruin an ability as bad as they are going to, then just replace it with something else as apposed to having another ability in the sorc tree that is compete garbage.
0 -
ishilb14_ESO✭✭✭✭jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »People who dont know how to play rely on crutches like unlimited bolt escapes or unlimited dodge. Learn to play is my advice.
I'd rather people didn't learn to play, I like making lots of AP lolOriginal DC #Bloodthorn2014
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technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So wait; the problem currently is a really quick TTK and I know that they are reducing damage, but also reducing all healing, defensive move and escape (except for cloak) at the same time. What about siege damage? I know you can't defend against it but healing after will be a PITA.0 -
pjwb16_ESO✭✭✭✭So wait; the problem currently is a really quick TTK and I know that they are reducing damage, but also reducing all healing, defensive move and escape (except for cloak) at the same time. What about siege damage? I know you can't defend against it but healing after will be a PITA.
l2purge~ here since Beta
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technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭pjwb16_ESO wrote: »So wait; the problem currently is a really quick TTK and I know that they are reducing damage, but also reducing all healing, defensive move and escape (except for cloak) at the same time. What about siege damage? I know you can't defend against it but healing after will be a PITA.
l2purge
LOL Purge will be the new spam. Already is but it will have to replace block, heals, BE and shields as well.Edited by technohic on July 6, 2015 3:28PM2