I used to be adamantly against veteran ranks, but now I hope they stay. They're not nearly as bad as they used to be. I haven't done a single quest in the VR zones and I got up to VR 3 in ten days. And that was barely playing at all - doing daily quests in Cyrodiil. Making them 1,000,000 xp flat was a good thing, and giving an attribute point? It's hardly the long, unrewarding slog it used to be.

wraith808 wrote: »

No, it was not as compensation. It was as a move towards a final goal, that may or may not occur. That was clearly stated (other than the may not- but that's why we're having this discussion).

Clearly stated eh ?
Like everyone gets 30CP...nothing more and nothing less ?

Now if everyone got the 30cp I could understand your argument.
We didnt. Everyone was compensated differently according to how much XP..up to a cap.

The gear was another matter that presented complications and held everything up.

Rune_Relic wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

No, it was not as compensation. It was as a move towards a final goal, that may or may not occur. That was clearly stated (other than the may not- but that's why we're having this discussion).

Clearly stated eh ?
Like everyone gets 30CP...nothing more and nothing less ?

Now if everyone got the 30cp I could understand your argument.
We didnt. Everyone was compensated differently according to how much XP..up to a cap.

The gear was another matter that presented complications and held everything up.

You are indeed correct. But it wasn't something that was instead of VRs. The compensation was to make up for the fact that there are very few ways to get a good amount of XP if you're already at VR14... scaling up as your character is a lesser level.

firstdecan wrote: »

Haven't bothered to read the thread. Has anyone mentioned that when they remove VR ranks, they will have to rework the item and crafting systems, since half of it is tied to VR levels?

I'm not a big ZoS defender, but lets be realistic about the task before them.

The thread does specifically identify using the VR level requirement and converting those requirements to Champion Point levels based on the 5 champion points per VR level conversion ZOS used.

So what comes out of the conversion would be VR1 items would require champion points 1
VR2 items would require a min of champion level 6
VR3 items would require a min of champion level 11
....
VR14 items would require a min champion level of 70

Some are complaining that this wouldn't be fair or work but its only an item requirement. It doesn't make any alt the equivalent of a true VR3 or VR14 as the skills and stats still need to be done by ZOS.
That may take a long time for them to figure out but this is only phase 1.

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

Minack wrote: »

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

<removed a lot>
I will comment on thread related items...to this thread

1).
-Actually its not balanced, and considering I've been playing since closed BETA I can share that VR is out of balance which is why so many are interested in the proposed changes and any information on what will be changed and how it affects them.
-Removing VR levels only takes a decision on skills and stats as I just detailed a very feasible phased change so that all that is left is for ZOS to decide what happens to the character stat and skills. (Considering they played with different values in PTS prior to 2.0 rolling out, it would seem that they are well into finishing this)

2)
-Again, that excuse was removed because of my responses above and what has already been tested on PTS.

3)
-A game like this doesn't nee two progression systems that are based off the exact same thing...exp. The only difference is one stops per character and one starts per account at 50. People are really looking for gear, and content rather than more ways to track exp

4)
-Not sure why this comment is here as many are out leveling the VR zones too but the bigger issue is there is absolutely no value to doing silver and gold quests or grinding to VR10 just to reach the next content mark based on the VR level and nothing else.
-You like many others are in need of content...not VR limiting zones based on exp

5)
-As stated many times, nothing mentioned degrades a character to level 50.
-The conversion literally only changes the UI indicator from VR to a champion level so if this is a valid complaint, that complaint should exist now.
-The champion points conversion, also as stated prior by me and many others....we understand it was an exp compensation.
We also stated that it was not compensated correctly and did not consider accounts who may have more than one VR14 or multiple VR characters that would warrant much more than 70 CP's

6)
-Correct a new level 50 is not ready for end-game content. Even with this proposed conversion but as the system is designed today, it forces all individual characters into the VR system which will result in either grinding to VR10, or doing silver and gold quests.
The VR levels are not harder at all until Craglorn so its really just forcing players to reply the same content over...and over...and over...and over...and over until the gain enough EXP to be VR10.

-Now that doesn't mean that an alt should also go through the same VR content...which isn't actually content, but instead the same quests and zones of another faction with adjusted levels.
*This isn't Destiny and the VR1-VR10 zones are exactly the same but take a lot longer as the player count in those zones are a lot less than what they would be in 1-50 zones.


There are, of course, ways to solve the issues the VR levels create without removing them:

1) Real time scaling enemies. I believe that's what ZOS intends for the dlcs, the same as Neverwinter does for its 'event' areas.
2) Battle scaling in Cyrodiil for vet1-vet13.
3) Better lfg tool.
4) Cross-alliance options. Dungeons, Craglorn and all future non-pvp dlcs should be cross-faction. No excuses, no exceptions.

None of this addresses the issue.
-No one wants to be required to play through needless levels just to get to end-game content due to a lack of planning and lack of content. Players do want credit for the crap they had to go through BUT no one is for keeping mind-numbing content that can be done at level 1-40 in another faction. There is literally nothing new....so instead of adding more content to replace a problem, just remove the problem.

That's the issue....that's the problem...

The silver and gold quests should be optional...even when you get to the point in the game, it seems optional. You run around for a few days and then realize....its not optional.

Even if you grind to VR10...you have to go back and do a lot of the quests just to unlock the other zones to get all the shards.



Have you made alts in other factions yet that are in the VR zones?
I ask because it seems like you have not...I like the game and the quests...so much so that I have three characters at a min in each faction that have completed the factions.

Why would I want to play them again...and again...and again... just to get to Craglorn VR10 level?
There is content that should b repeated in order to find gear, etc. Craglorn presents a lot of content for that typee of progression but why is the VR zones there.

Its just to slow down a character from getting to the point where this is a lack of content.
And why not improve Cyrodil....imaging PvP only players are really excited to do VR grinding

F7sus4 wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

But there again I do have a question about this. Why do people so badly want them gone?

Veteran Ranks should NOT be gone. They MUST NOT be gone.

Why?

Did anyone of you ever thought on the differences in your VR10 vs VR12 vs VR14 gear stats? You want to flat it down to level 50, really? Or perhaps maybe on serveral different crafting materials that are dedicated to different VR ranks? On several different Enchanting perks based on different VR ranks?

You want to see the whole in-game balance utterly wrecked again? Then shout for removal of Veteran Ranks. After the outrage starts after that, I'll just link to this very post.

I can't speak for everyone but this post is not to even out anything that exists for VR gear or VR character stats.
I do believe my OP outlines a viable conversion that keeps in tact the VR rated items and gear.

Removing the VR levels should possibly be worded as converting the VR requirements into champion level requirements across the board as phase 1.

What happens next is up to ZOS

or they could make 1-50 have a level cap of 50 (doing all the harborage quests) and then do another quest to unlock veteran ranks, that way if they want to stay 50 and farm unlimited champion points or participate in 1-50 pvp they can do that

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Won't be gone until X amount of time after the console release.

But there again I do have a question about this. Why do people so badly want them gone?

You'll still be going through gold and silver. Just without veteran levels.

What is an MMO without progression? If everyone is at level 50, aside from champion points, what is the point of going through new content (as it won't be a progression)

Without new levels to attain, except champion points everyone will be the same, and even they have a cap.

Why do ppl want them gone?
Because champion levels are account based each character does not need to complete the silver and gold quests.

They can if they want but let's say you have a VR7 on one faction and a VR5 on another. If you've completed both silver quests you prob don't want to do the gold. This kinda makes the work of an account apply so that people are brought together to play sooner.

Also the grind doesn't exists because now you're progress is applied to all 50+ characters.
Why do people want them gone...because the implementation of champion points makes VR levels redundant. If we are to keep leveling then why call it a VR level. Just allow the champion level to take its place.

Silver and gold quests ?
They won't be required by each character but instead a player can pick n choose the spots they want to gain exp in so that the account achieves 70-100 champion levels which is like one VR14 But each character still needs gear and shards. It's just a step in the right direction.

What is an MMORPG without progression?
This isn't removing progression it's only removing restrictive progression and allowing more open progression.

Everyone will be the same?
How do you figure as the VR levels are making everyone the same. This opens up variations and will result in very different mixtures and builds.


This also opens up the trading, crafting communities to do commerce across more characters

You seem to completely miss the point. Someone who has played all the content could level alt to 50 then ding its champ level and that character is ready fer endgame because of equipping endgame gear you already have or can buy. So if you have 100cp character and no vet system, you don't need to play silver and gold on alts for the second,third,fourth time because he shoots past v14 when you hit 50 you can go strait to trials or PvP without another grindfest. Who wouldn't want that? Maybe you don't have an endgame set up so don't quite understand how important/ strong engame equipment is? Especially for pvp

firstdecan wrote: »

Haven't bothered to read the thread. Has anyone mentioned that when they remove VR ranks, they will have to rework the item and crafting systems, since half of it is tied to VR levels?

I'm not a big ZoS defender, but lets be realistic about the task before them.

I'd agree with this to a point. So much as been said about VR levels over the last year, and little was positive. ZOS must have known that they were a big factor in driving people away. So while I agree with you that it is a hard fix, they should have been far more active in addressing the issue over the past year. And the crux of the issue is, no matter if you are pro or anti VR levels and post 50 content, it will yet again drive people away from the game, which affects us all. It's frustrating to me to see a company get a golden opportunity in the form of a second chance like this and then make the same mistakes that lost them subs/players in the first place.

GreySix wrote: »

I refuse to play other factions' quests with a single character. It would be akin to my finishing a career in the US Army, then signing up for the Taliban for a career in their holy jihad again Western infidels.

Won't do it.

Will play alts instead, and hopefully that brain-dead idea will be firmly planted in the ground by the time I'm done with them.

This. ^^^^^

dylanjaygrobbelaarb16_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

Won't be gone until X amount of time after the console release.

But there again I do have a question about this. Why do people so badly want them gone?

You'll still be going through gold and silver. Just without veteran levels.

What is an MMO without progression? If everyone is at level 50, aside from champion points, what is the point of going through new content (as it won't be a progression)

Without new levels to attain, except champion points everyone will be the same, and even they have a cap.

Why do ppl want them gone?
Because champion levels are account based each character does not need to complete the silver and gold quests.

They can if they want but let's say you have a VR7 on one faction and a VR5 on another. If you've completed both silver quests you prob don't want to do the gold. This kinda makes the work of an account apply so that people are brought together to play sooner.

Also the grind doesn't exists because now you're progress is applied to all 50+ characters.
Why do people want them gone...because the implementation of champion points makes VR levels redundant. If we are to keep leveling then why call it a VR level. Just allow the champion level to take its place.

Silver and gold quests ?
They won't be required by each character but instead a player can pick n choose the spots they want to gain exp in so that the account achieves 70-100 champion levels which is like one VR14 But each character still needs gear and shards. It's just a step in the right direction.

What is an MMORPG without progression?
This isn't removing progression it's only removing restrictive progression and allowing more open progression.

Everyone will be the same?
How do you figure as the VR levels are making everyone the same. This opens up variations and will result in very different mixtures and builds.


This also opens up the trading, crafting communities to do commerce across more characters

You seem to completely miss the point. Someone who has played all the content could level alt to 50 then ding its champ level and that character is ready fer endgame because of equipping endgame gear you already have or can buy. So if you have 100cp character and no vet system, you don't need to play silver and gold on alts for the second,third,fourth time because he shoots past v14 when you hit 50 you can go strait to trials or PvP without another grindfest. Who wouldn't want that? Maybe you don't have an endgame set up so don't quite understand how important/ strong engame equipment is? Especially for pvp

im not missing the points...that is the point partially. Partially means skipping the silver n gold quests as an option.
Having an endgame character I think you realize that even if you have on V14 gear you're not VR13 stat wise.

This is phase 1 only...the phase is mostly cosmetic and aims to remove the VR gate to content only by converting items and gear using the ZOS conversion.

Phase 2 requires ZOS to manage and decide what will happen to the skill/stat and shards collected.

Also due to parts of PTS prior to 2.0 having different affects and impact of champion level skills the champion levels will outweight the current stat increases we normally experience

In the same example....if an alt grinds to Vr14 and then equips Vr14 gear...isn't that the same problem??
Or better yet...an existing VR14 grinds out 200 champion points and then an alt 50 gets to VR14 and gains another 100+

300+ champion levels is noticeably powerful so the silver n gold quests are a face roll
Either way over time the same problem occurs that many are against....

All aim saying is make the cosmetic change using the conversion and remove the VR content limit to those who have earned champion levels.

F7sus4 wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Also due to parts of PTS prior to 2.0 having different affects and impact of champion level skills the champion levels will outweight the current stat increases we normally experience

You can't cover the loss of VR scaling with Champion Points without devastating impact on current balance (which was claimed to be final). This is just an utter bullsnot.

Did you participate or do you participate on the PTS server?
When you could have 3600 cp?

From now until August or whenever they decide to work on removing the VR levels 3600 cp is very possible. Those accounts are so powerful that they can start to solo and 5 man all content.

F7sus4 wrote: »

@NewBlacksmurf: You're either ZOS ninja-employee or have no idea on what you're talking (or possibly both)

Any 100-point investment in a single passive won't give you more than 25% stat increase. This, however, does not include Max Health/Magicka/Stamina scaled off Veteran Ranks. As rightly noted, this does not solve veteran zones level-flattening (where progress during subsequent maps and zones is naturally expected) as well. Not to mention materials, skills, leveled items etc.

The impact of that change would be too big to allow forming any stable meta-game - and that's more than highly unwanted. On the other side, Champion System on the top of Veteran System is just fine as it is.

There's also no reason to favor or reward a bunch of lazy players that are not willing to take their time to quest through the zones. If it takes more than month of casual gameplay to reach VR14 without grinding, then someone's just too lazy and should not play MMOs at all.

Have you played on PTS ?
It literally becomes OP once you get into the thousands. Did you participate when you had 3600 cp?

The change would be too big and OP which is exactly what ZOS said in the patch notes. But it was still tested.

This isn't favoring anyone and why do you assume it applies to lazy people. Anyone who has 100-200 cp's is in no way lazy.
Anyone who has 3 or more 50+ alts is not lazy.
Anyone who is tired of going through the silver and gold quests AGAIN after completing all factions isn't lazy

Anyone who feels that the VR design of limiting progression and therefore is in support of ZOS removing them as ZOS stated is not lazy.


Don't apply those assumptions to other players as its toxic.
Just because a player wants the option to skip silver and gold quests because they've earned 100 or so champion points or have already completed them all doesn't make them lazy. It's just that they are tired of the same old stuff.

What about those who started with me in closed BETa...have 3 or 4 VR14's the old way.

Back when it was feasible to grind VR1-VR8 in a week and then they got hit with VR max level increases with VR exp nerfs.

oR those who hit VR when they began counting any exp towards VR levels

oR the new players who have yet to hit VR at all

Does it make sense to slow down all of those to make it VERY difficult for them and any alts to one day play with VR14's.

No....the VR system was a revenue driving, exp limiting, needless void in place to slow down progression until they made enough $ to release CRAGlorn. Then they kept at it to slow down players to keep the subs going so that they could now drop the subs and require a sub to get close to the prior exp rate as before.

Then they add in the crown store with soon to be exp rate increases sold in crowns.

Then they add champion levels and instead of converting all exp for all VR characters they limit it to 70.

Can't you see the problem. Why would you not want VR removed unless you're in support of the money hungry model.

I'm not the ZOS supporter...at all. Check my participated threads and comments.