Will you please complete the VR level removal / conversion to champion system by May (part 1)

NewBlacksmurf

Varicite wrote: »

They haven't, they posted a LONG time ago on the Champion system phases. That's pretty much it.

They have followed that plan pretty faithfully thus far, however, but now we are at the phase where they are supposed to remove VRs and introduce season gear.

ZOS has remained mysteriously silent on both of these announced changes, however.

Go to the developer forums....they post in there all the time. its actually two topics on the champion system with 8+ pages

ebls_BR

Guppet wrote: »

ebls_BR wrote: »

This would be a slap in the face (another, I'd say: the cap of 70 CP was the first) in all people who invested more time leveling alts in this game. So, a person with 1 VR 14 and 7 VR1, which can be accomplished in a matter of weeks, would be equal to someone with 7-8 VR14, who spent months and even a year playing and leveling alts.
Only people who didn't invest time leveling alts or doing quests can defend this idea. Unless they give the CP proportional to the XP gained with the alt, the removal will be utterly unfair.

And people should stop saying that: "do quest is grinding". It's not for me and never was or is for anyone in my RP guilds. Most of the quests have 2, or some, even more solutions (it's not repetition), can be done for multiple ways, and the most important, the game is a MMORPG, an Elder Scrolls. People do quest to forge his characters; to learn about the lore; for imersion; etc. Just because some people on this forum don't like to do quest doesn't mean it's a boring and unbearable thing.

It gross exaggerations like this that hurt any argument people make.

So you can get a VR14 and 7 VR1's in a matter of weeks?

Most people's first play through to VR1 takes an averag of 4-5 days played (there have been various polls here). That's 96-120 hours of play. At 40 hours a week (more than a full time job) that's 3 weeks. At 3 hours a day, that's 5-6 weeks. For your first VR1.

So you can get 8 characters to VR1 and one to 14 in a matter of weeks?

Of course you can!

It's like people claiming they can get to VR1 in 14 hours. There's never any evidence provided. I want to see a fresh VR14 with a /played of less than 4 days, since that must be fully possible. Doubt we will ever see a screenshot of that though.

You can reach VR1 in one week easily, but to level a toon to VR14, will take like 1 month (not grindind, doing quests, dungeons, etc.). So to have 1 VR14 and 7 VR1, it will take 4 + 4 + 3 = 11 weeks. But to have 8 VR14 will take at least 8-9 months, only doing this. Also, people can spend 2 months only leveling, but 8-9 months is much more unlikely.

I know this cause I have almost my 7th VR14 (and the 8th toon is VR1) doing quests (yeah, I did Cadwell Silver and Gold with all of them, I hate grind), pledges, dungeons, DSA, etc. I could do this faster since I played some PVP with 2 of them.

Audigy

We can talk about VR11-14 here, as its based on forced premade content, but VR1-10 should stay. Its a joy to see the other "zones" with your main, to take this away would be a pretty poor move.

Besides that, if they remove the whole VRs then players who don't raid have absolutely nothing to do in this game. Where shall they go after their chars are 50?

I honestly think that many players who are against VR´s don't see the reasons for them and the consequences that we have to face if they go.

Rune_Relic

Audigy wrote: »

We can talk about VR11-14 here, as its based on forced premade content, but VR1-10 should stay. Its a joy to see the other "zones" with your main, to take this away would be a pretty poor move.

Besides that, if they remove the whole VRs then players who don't raid have absolutely nothing to do in this game. Where shall they go after their chars are 50?

I honestly think that many players who are against VR´s don't see the reasons for them and the consequences that we have to face if they go.

What does the ability to explore silver and gold = VR ?
There is no reason the two have to be linked...other than the fact they are linked at present

I for one have no issues for people to have the OPTION to do silver and gold.
The keyword there being optional.

Varicite

Xjcon wrote: »

Ysne58 wrote: »

Kind of like the mysterious silence before they announced the move to Buy to Play?

Perhaps it's the fact that if the CM's or any of the devs do say anything and something changes they get attacked on the forums.

Well, they already said something.

So not saying anything at this point isn't going to cause them to NOT be attacked on the forums.

If anything, it makes that far more likely in the event that they flake on their original plan, since they had ample opportunity to make this known to the community and chose not to.

Varicite

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

They haven't, they posted a LONG time ago on the Champion system phases. That's pretty much it.

They have followed that plan pretty faithfully thus far, however, but now we are at the phase where they are supposed to remove VRs and introduce season gear.

ZOS has remained mysteriously silent on both of these announced changes, however.

Go to the developer forums....they post in there all the time. its actually two topics on the champion system with 8+ pages

You clearly didn't actually read those topics if you think there is anything that can be called even remotely "recent" about the removal of VRs.

Varicite

Audigy wrote: »

We can talk about VR11-14 here, as its based on forced premade content, but VR1-10 should stay. Its a joy to see the other "zones" with your main, to take this away would be a pretty poor move.

Removing VRs does not mean that you won't be able to do Cadwell's Silver and Gold, or that you will no longer be able to visit the other factions' zones. This has zero bearing on the conversation.

Audigy wrote: »

Besides that, if they remove the whole VRs then players who don't raid have absolutely nothing to do in this game. Where shall they go after their chars are 50?

The exact same thing that they do now when they hit VR14. There's literally no difference in available content.

Audigy wrote: »

I honestly think that many players who are against VR´s don't see the reasons for them and the consequences that we have to face if they go.

I'm not sure that you really grasp what we're talking about here....

Athas24

Pausekey wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

its not going to happen, why:

1. they havent spoken about the last stage in months
2. the earning of champion points start first at vr1
3. with so many gear between vr1 - vr14 in the game it would be a pain to change
4. the vr14 levels are released in the consuls versions
5. that means 3 places to remove it and 3 times the workload

Give it up

Did you even read the points?
It's literally only UI changes and no extra work as the restrictions and limitations stay. It just removes the per character requirement to start VR exp over.

Why does this approach not work?

So if I rolled a new character, and had a ton of CP, as soon as I hit 50 they would be VR14 equivalent? Or did I miss something in how your idea had the conversion take place?

If so this would negate the need to actually work on a character past level 50, they would immediately have access to the best gear and all my stockpile of CP.

ya that's how it seemed to me and that's a problem imo. I mean, I have tons of alts that could benefit from this but it's still cutting the game in half for them compared to the current set up. I suppose it's ok if there was a bunch of new content to do? Idk.

rmarsh936

One of the reasons that I think that the champion system is a poor replacement to the vet system is because once a character is at level 50, they have all the benefits of all the other characters on your account that you have worked much longer on. We do need additional advancement that must be worked on per character, I think, it helps make the game fun to be able to continue advancing an individual character.

rmarsh936

Audigy wrote: »

Besides that, if they remove the whole VRs then players who don't raid have absolutely nothing to do in this game. Where shall they go after their chars are 50?

I honestly think that many players who are against VR´s don't see the reasons for them and the consequences that we have to face if they go.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

Varicite

Athas24 wrote: »

Pausekey wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Artemiisia wrote: »

its not going to happen, why:

1. they havent spoken about the last stage in months
2. the earning of champion points start first at vr1
3. with so many gear between vr1 - vr14 in the game it would be a pain to change
4. the vr14 levels are released in the consuls versions
5. that means 3 places to remove it and 3 times the workload

Give it up

Did you even read the points?
It's literally only UI changes and no extra work as the restrictions and limitations stay. It just removes the per character requirement to start VR exp over.

Why does this approach not work?

So if I rolled a new character, and had a ton of CP, as soon as I hit 50 they would be VR14 equivalent? Or did I miss something in how your idea had the conversion take place?

If so this would negate the need to actually work on a character past level 50, they would immediately have access to the best gear and all my stockpile of CP.

ya that's how it seemed to me and that's a problem imo. I mean, I have tons of alts that could benefit from this but it's still cutting the game in half for them compared to the current set up. I suppose it's ok if there was a bunch of new content to do? Idk.

I don't really see the issue w/ this. Could you elaborate?

The content does not cease to exist because your fresh lv50 has some CP. And there is still the matter of AP (if you PvP), gearing (if you PvE), etc.

All this seems to do imo is streamline the process of entering endgame activities instead of forcing everyone to go through a prohibitively tedious VR grind before they can actually do what they WANT to do. And if what you want to do is go through Cadwell's Silver & Gold, you can still do exactly that and earn CP.

Other games solve this by having a level cap and then chasing a gear treadmill; ZOS has stated that they plan to use this very same method through the use of "Season Gear" when they remove VR levels.

This next phase is supposed to do BOTH, remove VRs and introduce an alternative progression through gear on top of the existing Champion system.

Seraphyel

rmarsh936 wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Besides that, if they remove the whole VRs then players who don't raid have absolutely nothing to do in this game. Where shall they go after their chars are 50?

I honestly think that many players who are against VR´s don't see the reasons for them and the consequences that we have to face if they go.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

That's an issue only Zenimax is responsible for. To copy content just to have it doesn't make a game.

wraith808

Seraphyel wrote: »

rmarsh936 wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Besides that, if they remove the whole VRs then players who don't raid have absolutely nothing to do in this game. Where shall they go after their chars are 50?

I honestly think that many players who are against VR´s don't see the reasons for them and the consequences that we have to face if they go.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

That's an issue only Zenimax is responsible for. To copy content just to have it doesn't make a game.

They did it at the behest of a vocal group (few?). I'd rather they not take it out by mob consensus... and instead design a good approach- whatever it is- to making it better, whether it be removal, leaving them in, or something else entirely.

On the note of one of the pain points, I made a thread to get more information so that we can at least get some anecdotal experiences towards rate of VR leveling: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162764/gaining-veteran-xp-per-alliance

Not really trying to debate in that thread... there's more than enough of those around. Just trying to gather information.

Guppet

ebls_BR wrote: »

Guppet wrote: »

ebls_BR wrote: »

This would be a slap in the face (another, I'd say: the cap of 70 CP was the first) in all people who invested more time leveling alts in this game. So, a person with 1 VR 14 and 7 VR1, which can be accomplished in a matter of weeks, would be equal to someone with 7-8 VR14, who spent months and even a year playing and leveling alts.
Only people who didn't invest time leveling alts or doing quests can defend this idea. Unless they give the CP proportional to the XP gained with the alt, the removal will be utterly unfair.

And people should stop saying that: "do quest is grinding". It's not for me and never was or is for anyone in my RP guilds. Most of the quests have 2, or some, even more solutions (it's not repetition), can be done for multiple ways, and the most important, the game is a MMORPG, an Elder Scrolls. People do quest to forge his characters; to learn about the lore; for imersion; etc. Just because some people on this forum don't like to do quest doesn't mean it's a boring and unbearable thing.

It gross exaggerations like this that hurt any argument people make.

So you can get a VR14 and 7 VR1's in a matter of weeks?

Most people's first play through to VR1 takes an averag of 4-5 days played (there have been various polls here). That's 96-120 hours of play. At 40 hours a week (more than a full time job) that's 3 weeks. At 3 hours a day, that's 5-6 weeks. For your first VR1.

So you can get 8 characters to VR1 and one to 14 in a matter of weeks?

Of course you can!

It's like people claiming they can get to VR1 in 14 hours. There's never any evidence provided. I want to see a fresh VR14 with a /played of less than 4 days, since that must be fully possible. Doubt we will ever see a screenshot of that though.

You can reach VR1 in one week easily, but to level a toon to VR14, will take like 1 month (not grindind, doing quests, dungeons, etc.). So to have 1 VR14 and 7 VR1, it will take 4 + 4 + 3 = 11 weeks. But to have 8 VR14 will take at least 8-9 months, only doing this. Also, people can spend 2 months only leveling, but 8-9 months is much more unlikely.

I know this cause I have almost my 7th VR14 (and the 8th toon is VR1) doing quests (yeah, I did Cadwell Silver and Gold with all of them, I hate grind), pledges, dungeons, DSA, etc. I could do this faster since I played some PVP with 2 of them.

Nice to see some realistic figures. But without the details of what one week of your time entails, it does not tell us much. A week of play could be 20 hours, or it could be 80.

The value of a persons free time is directly proportionate I how much free time they have.

Seraphyel

wraith808 wrote: »

Seraphyel wrote: »

rmarsh936 wrote: »

Audigy wrote: »

Besides that, if they remove the whole VRs then players who don't raid have absolutely nothing to do in this game. Where shall they go after their chars are 50?

I honestly think that many players who are against VR´s don't see the reasons for them and the consequences that we have to face if they go.

Wholeheartedly agreed.

That's an issue only Zenimax is responsible for. To copy content just to have it doesn't make a game.

They did it at the behest of a vocal group (few?). I'd rather they not take it out by mob consensus... and instead design a good approach- whatever it is- to making it better, whether it be removal, leaving them in, or something else entirely.

On the note of one of the pain points, I made a thread to get more information so that we can at least get some anecdotal experiences towards rate of VR leveling: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/162764/gaining-veteran-xp-per-alliance

Not really trying to debate in that thread... there's more than enough of those around. Just trying to gather information.

They could have easily solved this issue long before.

As I said, you just need at least 1 or 2 new zones.

You hit 50, then you have the choice to:

1. Go to the other factions and level there your VR

2. Go to the other zones (such as Craglorn, Imperial City or Murkmire)

The best thing is to remove the VR level brand of those zones and just let it be some kind of XP thing like the Champion System.

Minack

wraith808 wrote: »

Minack wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

There is no logic in this. There are two forms of advancement going on at the same time... Vertical, and Horizontal but really vertical.

Your experience goes towards both. the 70 CP was as compensation for the fact that people had already gained XP prior to the CP release.

No... all those CP points you received was part of the Vet rank removal process and compensation in lieu of removal.
Now everyone is crying when its time to pay the debt.
So either return the upto 70 CP points you received and keep the ranks....or take the CP points and accept the loss of the ranks.

No, it was not as compensation. It was as a move towards a final goal, that may or may not occur. That was clearly stated (other than the may not- but that's why we're having this discussion).

Minack wrote: »

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

Fallacies in debate don't give your argument any more weight. From what I've seen on the boards (admittedly a small sample set), and experienced personally, the problem wasn't in the VRs. The problem was in the details of implementation, probably brought on by the fact that in the end, people wanted to be able to go through all three factions' contents without making alts in other alliances. They decided to implement that- but overestimated peoples' willingness to grind through single player content, and underestimated the reward to make them actually *worth* it. 10 levels of XP for the same (and less in the beginning) reward than going through normal levels? Who thought that was going to be received well?

Thanks for making my point.

Making your point? In what way?

That VR/Cadwell is a crap system that was implemented in a crappy manner.

Minack

Endurance wrote: »

Minack wrote: »

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

why are you even here? remove veteran ranks? and mess up all the wiki pages and fan site databases? what for? if you dont like VR then stay level 49

Ladies and gentlemen, a moron.


"Oh, won't anyone think of the wiki pages?!"

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Sorry guys but Ill seriously eat my rl hat if they remove vet ranks. So might as well accept they are here to stay and move on.

Koopa

Whenever they get around to adding in new zones to play through would it be hard to believe they simply rename vr14 to a number and add levels after that. Rename vet gear to numbered like 52 63 etc and add in after that, up the max level to 65 or 70. Play through all 3 factions content then move to the newly added content and so on. They may have to rework xp gains in those later levels, but this seems to me to be the logical way to go if they want to get rid of vet ranks.

Ysne58

Just because we don't like the vet system doesn't mean it's a 'crap system that was implemented in a crappy manner."

However the fact that it can and does glitch up for some people who somehow miss a quest in the progression and can't ever pick it up again when they go back and try to find it....well that does lend some weight to that claim.

I like some of the quests. I don't really like killing everything in my path to make sure I get enough xp to gain a vet level per zone. They nerfed exp gain across the board when they put 1.6 in and changed the amount of exp required to reach a new level to 1,000,000 xp just to make progress even slower. Since they haven't explained why they did this your guess is as good as mine.

wraith808

Minack wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Minack wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

There is no logic in this. There are two forms of advancement going on at the same time... Vertical, and Horizontal but really vertical.

Your experience goes towards both. the 70 CP was as compensation for the fact that people had already gained XP prior to the CP release.

No... all those CP points you received was part of the Vet rank removal process and compensation in lieu of removal.
Now everyone is crying when its time to pay the debt.
So either return the upto 70 CP points you received and keep the ranks....or take the CP points and accept the loss of the ranks.

No, it was not as compensation. It was as a move towards a final goal, that may or may not occur. That was clearly stated (other than the may not- but that's why we're having this discussion).

Minack wrote: »

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

Fallacies in debate don't give your argument any more weight. From what I've seen on the boards (admittedly a small sample set), and experienced personally, the problem wasn't in the VRs. The problem was in the details of implementation, probably brought on by the fact that in the end, people wanted to be able to go through all three factions' contents without making alts in other alliances. They decided to implement that- but overestimated peoples' willingness to grind through single player content, and underestimated the reward to make them actually *worth* it. 10 levels of XP for the same (and less in the beginning) reward than going through normal levels? Who thought that was going to be received well?

Thanks for making my point.

Making your point? In what way?

That VR/Cadwell is a crap system that was implemented in a crappy manner.

That wasn't your point. But hey, changing course in the middle of a debate is always a good way to alter focus from your argument.

Makkir

JD2013 wrote: »

Won't be gone until X amount of time after the console release.

But there again I do have a question about this. Why do people so badly want them gone?

You'll still be going through gold and silver. Just without veteran levels.

What is an MMO without progression? If everyone is at level 50, aside from champion points, what is the point of going through new content (as it won't be a progression)

Without new levels to attain, except champion points everyone will be the same, and even they have a cap.

MMO's don't have to be about character progression (AKA that endless upwards spiral) to be successful. I remember a specific MMO back in 2004ish that took place in a galaxy far, far away that was not about progression. Player created content is where it's at yo!
This game has large scale PvP in an enormous map...play the game in moderation and you won't get bored of it.

NewBlacksmurf

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Sorry guys but Ill seriously eat my rl hat if they remove vet ranks. So might as well accept they are here to stay and move on.

Can we get a video of u eating it?

NewBlacksmurf

Minack wrote: »

Endurance wrote: »

Minack wrote: »

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

why are you even here? remove veteran ranks? and mess up all the wiki pages and fan site databases? what for? if you dont like VR then stay level 49

Ladies and gentlemen, a moron.


"Oh, won't anyone think of the wiki pages?!"

Huh...WiKi gets changed all the time. No valid argument

NewBlacksmurf

Varicite wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

They haven't, they posted a LONG time ago on the Champion system phases. That's pretty much it.

They have followed that plan pretty faithfully thus far, however, but now we are at the phase where they are supposed to remove VRs and introduce season gear.

ZOS has remained mysteriously silent on both of these announced changes, however.

Go to the developer forums....they post in there all the time. its actually two topics on the champion system with 8+ pages

You clearly didn't actually read those topics if you think there is anything that can be called even remotely "recent" about the removal of VRs.

Just because it takes the company 4-5 months to make good on any idea about change doesn't mean there's nothing recent in there. i believe you're only looking for the subject of a thread. Go in and actually read the pages on those related from Jan - now

That is considered recent in terms of ZOS logic

NewBlacksmurf

Audigy wrote: »

We can talk about VR11-14 here, as its based on forced premade content, but VR1-10 should stay. Its a joy to see the other "zones" with your main, to take this away would be a pretty poor move.

Besides that, if they remove the whole VRs then players who don't raid have absolutely nothing to do in this game. Where shall they go after their chars are 50?

I honestly think that many players who are against VR´s don't see the reasons for them and the consequences that we have to face if they go.

So because there is no real content we should be forced to play through the realms on alt factions, alt characters (all three per character) in order to get to VR10?

I personally don't see the logic in that...please detail the logic that you feel applies. Please (no sarcasm intended...it's a real question)

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Last time they mentioned anything about the VR ranks removal all they said was thats still the plan. That was months ago on a ESO Live podcast thing. Personally I dont see how its going to go over well with the console crowd. Just as they start hitting max level is ZOS going to pull the rug out nerf all VR14 charactes back to lvl 50 and cap them there? Or do you think they will say "Man I know this is something we wanted to do but I dont see how its possible without alienating 90% of our base."?

ZOS needs to focus on releasing DLC new zones quests etc. Not revamping the leveling process again. Enough of the revamping lets get some REAL content. Then maybe they can discuss removing vet ranks.

Varicite

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Last time they mentioned anything about the VR ranks removal all they said was thats still the plan. That was months ago on a ESO Live podcast thing. Personally I dont see how its going to go over well with the console crowd. Just as they start hitting max level is ZOS going to pull the rug out nerf all VR14 charactes back to lvl 50 and cap them there? Or do you think they will say "Man I know this is something we wanted to do but I dont see how its possible without alienating 90% of our base."?

ZOS needs to focus on releasing DLC new zones quests etc. Not revamping the leveling process again. Enough of the revamping lets get some REAL content. Then maybe they can discuss removing vet ranks.

People aren't going to be super happy to have to grind 14 VR levels before they can get to new endgame content, though.

So it's kind of a catch 22.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Varicite wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Last time they mentioned anything about the VR ranks removal all they said was thats still the plan. That was months ago on a ESO Live podcast thing. Personally I dont see how its going to go over well with the console crowd. Just as they start hitting max level is ZOS going to pull the rug out nerf all VR14 charactes back to lvl 50 and cap them there? Or do you think they will say "Man I know this is something we wanted to do but I dont see how its possible without alienating 90% of our base."?

ZOS needs to focus on releasing DLC new zones quests etc. Not revamping the leveling process again. Enough of the revamping lets get some REAL content. Then maybe they can discuss removing vet ranks.

People aren't going to be super happy to have to grind 14 VR levels before they can get to new endgame content, though.

So it's kind of a catch 22.

I started a nightblade while back. In 9 days played only doing quests I am VR11. I dont understand the whole thing about the "grind". Whats going to really upset people is all their gear and levels nerfed back to 50 after playing for months building said character.

The new DLC they said will scale so anyone can access it regardless of your level. So you wont have to grind anything if they put out a new zone. Just buy it and go there.

HungryHobo

Could they tie VR ranks to something other than XP? a combination of quest completion % / battle achievements / spelunking?

Every progression system in the game is tied to some sort of xp... and the sources of those xp are the same, its is a condensed CP grind, or CP is like an expanded VR Grind... Could VR become something like the undaunted guild, but more encompassing to the entire gameplay experience? It only makes sense in regards to its name "Veteran Ranks"...

With that said, VR 14 gear shouldn't be 40% stronger than VR1 gear either.. bring the difference down so its noticeable and doesn't invalidate the people who have 6 VR14 players, but not game breaking so V1's aren't shunned at first sight.. like 10%? (Random Numbers here..)