Will you please complete the VR level removal / conversion to champion system by May (part 1)

badbeansnub18_ESO

Are they even still planning to get rid of the veteran ranks? It seems they aren't even talking about it anymore and are moving away from that position. I think when they designed the game they should have just stopped at 50 and let people create alts to play other realms, but that boat left the docks long ago. MMO's need continuing progress, and I guess CP and VR complete that. I've grow use to it now and don't care either way.

NewBlacksmurf

badbeansnub18_ESO wrote: »

Are they even still planning to get rid of the veteran ranks? It seems they aren't even talking about it anymore and are moving away from that position. I think when they designed the game they should have just stopped at 50 and let people create alts to play other realms, but that boat left the docks long ago. MMO's need continuing progress, and I guess CP and VR complete that. I've grow use to it now and don't care either way.

Not sure so I thought it was worth posting asking them

You know the game in BETA didn't have VR ranks until a lot later and closer to 2014. Even still the VR max was a lot lower and they kept increasing it.

VR ranks was originally for PvP and then they made it both....bad logic but it was their quick fix to no content along with caldwells silver and gold quests.

wraith808

McDoogs wrote: »

vanddalx wrote: »

The veteran ranks should have been removed before the TU launch. Poor decision imho.

I think that they didn't do it because they couldn't figure out how.

People complained with the implementation of CPs for VRs. Then they complained again when they listened to them and upgraded the number of CPs people would get. Then they complained... just to complain.

Imagine how many more complaints there are going to be about whatever method they choose to remove/replace VRs and everything that is associated with it.

That's more the reason they put it off- not that it's a process that they can't reason out, but difficulties community-wise? It's a nest full of bees and they're covered with honey.

NewBlacksmurf

wraith808 wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

vanddalx wrote: »

The veteran ranks should have been removed before the TU launch. Poor decision imho.

I think that they didn't do it because they couldn't figure out how.

People complained with the implementation of CPs for VRs. Then they complained again when they listened to them and upgraded the number of CPs people would get. Then they complained... just to complain.

Imagine how many more complaints there are going to be about whatever method they choose to remove/replace VRs and everything that is associated with it.

That's more the reason they put it off- not that it's a process that they can't reason out, but difficulties community-wise? It's a nest full of bees and they're covered with honey.

I disagree as the understanding for the cp conversion was with the expectation of VR levels being removed.
IF they had no intention of removing the VR levels then there was no reason to apply/give cp levels based on VR exp earned.

It won't cause any crying it'll just finish what they started.

IF they decide not to remove VR levels then I personally have a big gripe about why they gave out cp levels from VR

It's nothing hard about using the same conversion that already exists.

The only viable arguments would be towards why the max cp level conversion was 70 pts.

Considering there was a max and VR levels were the only math used for conversion and that this was limited to co levels only suggests that this should be finished.

I would've loved to see cp levels based on the exp rate with no max cp level or points so that someone with more than one VR14 got their deserved cp levels but that decision has already occurred.

*lots of edits made above*

JD2013

People do realise that VR levels weren't in the game originally, right? The whole reason that they are there is that a LOT of people complained and complained and complained about the fact that you weren't able to go outside your faction territory on one character.

This was their quick fix for that. And now people hate that too.

Tldr: This is of the making of the players, whatever they do, Zenimax can not win as not everyone will like what they do.

wraith808

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

It won't cause any crying it'll just finish what they started.

Well, I'm sure that they hope the reality is what you've said. But from prior experience, it's been shown that this is a futile hope.

Obscure

VR14 = level 64

You start earning champion points at level 50.

Better yet, you earn champion points regardless of level to encourage rolling alts without feeling like your wasting time on levelling up you could be spending to level champion points.

Done.

Oh, and implement a *** cap on Champion Points. Who in their right might creates a vertical progression system in which the only trade off involved is "how much time do you have?"... lazy design strategy... would pick those points a bit more carefully if you knew the cap was 360. Not that 360 should be the cap, just saying it would change how we look at the system is all.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

They need to work on content and not bother with removing vet levels. What will drive more people away is nothing to do.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

For example would you rather have vet ranks removed or the imperial city added? Personally Ill take imperial city.

McDoogs

wraith808 wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

vanddalx wrote: »

The veteran ranks should have been removed before the TU launch. Poor decision imho.

I think that they didn't do it because they couldn't figure out how.

People complained with the implementation of CPs for VRs. Then they complained again when they listened to them and upgraded the number of CPs people would get. Then they complained... just to complain.

Imagine how many more complaints there are going to be about whatever method they choose to remove/replace VRs and everything that is associated with it.

That's more the reason they put it off- not that it's a process that they can't reason out, but difficulties community-wise? It's a nest full of bees and they're covered with honey.

I disagree, being a software engineer I have some idea how expensive it can be to overhaul major components of entrenched systems. Think about it, the entire game from halfway-3/4 through closed beta to now, virtually every change made has been balanced around veteran ranks.

If they are going to remove/change veteran ranks they have to do it in a way so that the LOE (level of effort) is economically feasible. If they can't do it in a way that is financially advantageous (i.e. it takes too much development time away from developing this that will create income like DLC and cash shop crap), it probably won't get done.

NewBlacksmurf

JD2013 wrote: »

People do realise that VR levels weren't in the game originally, right? The whole reason that they are there is that a LOT of people complained and complained and complained about the fact that you weren't able to go outside your faction territory on one character.

This was their quick fix for that. And now people hate that too.

Tldr: This is of the making of the players, whatever they do, Zenimax can not win as not everyone will like what they do.

I don't think many are aware of this

McDoogs

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

JD2013 wrote: »

People do realise that VR levels weren't in the game originally, right? The whole reason that they are there is that a LOT of people complained and complained and complained about the fact that you weren't able to go outside your faction territory on one character.

This was their quick fix for that. And now people hate that too.

Tldr: This is of the making of the players, whatever they do, Zenimax can not win as not everyone will like what they do.

I don't think many are aware of this

He's talking like fairly early closed beta though, it's kind of irrelevant to pretty much everyone still playing and the history of veteran ranks doesn't really matter when discussing how or why they should be removed.

NewBlacksmurf

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

For example would you rather have vet ranks removed or the imperial city added? Personally Ill take imperial city.

I'd rather have vet levels removed. Content doesn't fix the VR problem that has existed since closed BETA. Now that cp was rolled out, it's more of a thorn in the side.

Content based on how ZOS talks about it will be paid DLC that scales with character level. So basically people will hit 50 and then opt to start paid DLC so go ahead and remove the VR levels so that people aren't phased out of playing with each other even more.

rmarsh936

I don't want vet ranks removed.

wraith808

McDoogs wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

vanddalx wrote: »

The veteran ranks should have been removed before the TU launch. Poor decision imho.

I think that they didn't do it because they couldn't figure out how.

People complained with the implementation of CPs for VRs. Then they complained again when they listened to them and upgraded the number of CPs people would get. Then they complained... just to complain.

Imagine how many more complaints there are going to be about whatever method they choose to remove/replace VRs and everything that is associated with it.

That's more the reason they put it off- not that it's a process that they can't reason out, but difficulties community-wise? It's a nest full of bees and they're covered with honey.

I disagree, being a software engineer I have some idea how expensive it can be to overhaul major components of entrenched systems. Think about it, the entire game from halfway-3/4 through closed beta to now, virtually every change made has been balanced around veteran ranks.

If they are going to remove/change veteran ranks they have to do it in a way so that the LOE (level of effort) is economically feasible. If they can't do it in a way that is financially advantageous (i.e. it takes too much development time away from developing this that will create income like DLC and cash shop crap), it probably won't get done.

Being a software architect, I can say that without looking at the architecture, I can't say anything about the implementation. But many people were saying that they couldn't figure out how to do it. That was what I was speaking to. Implementation =/= design.

SIN-X

I agree remove vr levels just make it so they cant enter crag until they finish cadwells gold

lord_dal

last thing I heard on eso live was "sometime after console launch" that dont tell us much but..

Guppet

SIN-X wrote: »

I agree remove vr levels just make it so they cant enter crag until they finish cadwells gold

You can do that at VR 2 or 3. You can do just the Cadwell quests and ignore the rest easily. So sure, do just what you said, the quests for silver and gold are the best from each faction anyway.

McDoogs

wraith808 wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

McDoogs wrote: »

vanddalx wrote: »

The veteran ranks should have been removed before the TU launch. Poor decision imho.

I think that they didn't do it because they couldn't figure out how.

People complained with the implementation of CPs for VRs. Then they complained again when they listened to them and upgraded the number of CPs people would get. Then they complained... just to complain.

Imagine how many more complaints there are going to be about whatever method they choose to remove/replace VRs and everything that is associated with it.

That's more the reason they put it off- not that it's a process that they can't reason out, but difficulties community-wise? It's a nest full of bees and they're covered with honey.

I disagree, being a software engineer I have some idea how expensive it can be to overhaul major components of entrenched systems. Think about it, the entire game from halfway-3/4 through closed beta to now, virtually every change made has been balanced around veteran ranks.

If they are going to remove/change veteran ranks they have to do it in a way so that the LOE (level of effort) is economically feasible. If they can't do it in a way that is financially advantageous (i.e. it takes too much development time away from developing this that will create income like DLC and cash shop crap), it probably won't get done.

Being a software architect, I can say that without looking at the architecture, I can't say anything about the implementation. But many people were saying that they couldn't figure out how to do it. That was what I was speaking to. Implementation =/= design.

I'd never say that something 'can't' be done in software, but it definitely can be scrapped for having a crappy ROI

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

For example would you rather have vet ranks removed or the imperial city added? Personally Ill take imperial city.

I'd rather have vet levels removed. Content doesn't fix the VR problem that has existed since closed BETA. Now that cp was rolled out, it's more of a thorn in the side.

Content based on how ZOS talks about it will be paid DLC that scales with character level. So basically people will hit 50 and then opt to start paid DLC so go ahead and remove the VR levels so that people aren't phased out of playing with each other even more.

What VR problem is it that needs fixing?

McDoogs

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

For example would you rather have vet ranks removed or the imperial city added? Personally Ill take imperial city.

I'd rather have vet levels removed. Content doesn't fix the VR problem that has existed since closed BETA. Now that cp was rolled out, it's more of a thorn in the side.

Content based on how ZOS talks about it will be paid DLC that scales with character level. So basically people will hit 50 and then opt to start paid DLC so go ahead and remove the VR levels so that people aren't phased out of playing with each other even more.

What VR problem is it that needs fixing?

He doesn't like them.

bg22

Agree... I want nothing more than to see Veteran Ranks removed immediately.

I've said this from Day 1.

NewBlacksmurf

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

For example would you rather have vet ranks removed or the imperial city added? Personally Ill take imperial city.

I'd rather have vet levels removed. Content doesn't fix the VR problem that has existed since closed BETA. Now that cp was rolled out, it's more of a thorn in the side.

Content based on how ZOS talks about it will be paid DLC that scales with character level. So basically people will hit 50 and then opt to start paid DLC so go ahead and remove the VR levels so that people aren't phased out of playing with each other even more.

What VR problem is it that needs fixing?

Fair question:
When playing a MMORPG the top level after the main quest completion should begin to funnel characters and players of those characters towards their endgame desires. Some prefer PvP, some prefer PvE and other want a mix of both.

Today with the VR levels, what happens instead is that after playing with others at your level up until level 50, your later seperated from many post 50 characters. I'm not talking about the need of each character to upgrade their gear or any other work to be endgame viable but I'm specifically talking about how the game continues to lengthen the seperation from a new 50/VR1 to the viable endgame level of today's VR11-VR12.

It begins with the game having a much lower VR max level that is now a couple of VR levels higher and one that continues to be raised. Also considering the exp rate of change and the nerfs of exp spots. For a long time players were unable to gain VR exp other than jumping into VR content which is silly based on how the game is set up.

The problem is that ZOS is intentionally lengthening the amount of time, the amount of exp and the number of efficient ways and places a character can progress to be viable at the end game content whether that is PvE or PvP.

So in asking ZOS if they will start removing VR soon, it's addressing the many posts that gripe about not being able to play with others or being stuck at certain parts of VR content. It addresses the nerfs to exp and the clarification of where the champion level system is going.

The VR levels are a big problem and have not always been as big of a problem but as months pass, ZOS is intentionally slowing down vertical progression to specific characters.

When the game starts allowing players to progress through the system that ZOS is forcing us to level in, and also remove the system that they are making it very hard to progress in, the game will be better.

That's thr problem with VR that will not be a problem once VR is removed.

Then content makes sense because it can be added in a way that also allows players to play with others and enjoy the game vs grinding for a VR level only to be allowed to participate in other content.

If this were gear only...no problem cause you would gain gear by playing. This is adding weeks or months worth of leveling per character just to get to a point to where you can start playing with others again.

*lots of edits and typos*

NewBlacksmurf

Hmm no responses from anyone yet @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Endurance

they dont need to remove veteran levels, they need to add more. ALSO they need to properly scale stats according to that level as well as equipment

- A veteran rank 1 would probably have about 11k ~ 12k HP/MP/STA.. veteran rank 14's should have around 60k~75k HP/MP/STA

- yes monsters are easy.. so scale that too! make it so its harder and harder to the point where its not even possible to solo anymore

Endurance

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

For example would you rather have vet ranks removed or the imperial city added? Personally Ill take imperial city.

I'd rather have vet levels removed. Content doesn't fix the VR problem that has existed since closed BETA. Now that cp was rolled out, it's more of a thorn in the side.

Content based on how ZOS talks about it will be paid DLC that scales with character level. So basically people will hit 50 and then opt to start paid DLC so go ahead and remove the VR levels so that people aren't phased out of playing with each other even more.

What VR problem is it that needs fixing?

Fair question:
When playing a MMORPG the top level after the main quest completion should begin to funnel characters and players of those characters towards their endgame desires. Some prefer PvP, some prefer PvE and other want a mix of both.

Today with the VR levels, what happens instead is that after playing with others at your level up until level 50, your later seperated from many post 50 characters. I'm not talking about the need of each character to upgrade their gear or any other work to be endgame viable but I'm specifically talking about how the game continues to lengthen the seperation from a new 50/VR1 to the viable endgame level of today's VR11-VR12.

It begins with the game having a much lower VR max level that is now a couple of VR levels higher and one that continues to be raised. Also considering the exp rate of change and the nerfs of exp spots. For a long time players were unable to gain VR exp other than jumping into VR content which is silly based on how the game is set up.

The problem is that ZOS is intentionally lengthening the amount of time, the amount of exp and the number of efficient ways and places a character can progress to be viable at the end game content whether that is PvE or PvP.

So in asking ZOS if they will start removing VR soon, it's addressing the many posts that gripe about not being able to play with others or being stuck at certain parts of VR content. It addresses the nerfs to exp and the clarification of where the champion level system is going.

The VR levels are a big problem and have not always been as big of a problem but as months pass, ZOS is intentionally slowing down vertical progression to specific characters.

When the game starts allowing players to progress through the system that ZOS is forcing us to level in, and also remove the system that they are making it very hard to progress in, the game will be better.

That's thr problem with VR that will not be a problem once VR is removed.

Then content makes sense because it can be added in a way that also allows players to play with others and enjoy the game vs grinding for a VR level only to be allowed to participate in other content.

If this were gear only...no problem cause you would gain gear by playing. This is adding weeks or months worth of leveling per character just to get to a point to where you can start playing with others again.

*lots of edits and typos*

i dont see the players at diablo 3 complaining.. they finish easy and normal, then jump right into hard mode, nightmare, and inferno.. oh and its set up pretty much the same way, you fight the same monsters over and over with increased stats and HP

NewBlacksmurf

Endurance wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

For example would you rather have vet ranks removed or the imperial city added? Personally Ill take imperial city.

I'd rather have vet levels removed. Content doesn't fix the VR problem that has existed since closed BETA. Now that cp was rolled out, it's more of a thorn in the side.

Content based on how ZOS talks about it will be paid DLC that scales with character level. So basically people will hit 50 and then opt to start paid DLC so go ahead and remove the VR levels so that people aren't phased out of playing with each other even more.

What VR problem is it that needs fixing?

Fair question:
When playing a MMORPG the top level after the main quest completion should begin to funnel characters and players of those characters towards their endgame desires. Some prefer PvP, some prefer PvE and other want a mix of both.

Today with the VR levels, what happens instead is that after playing with others at your level up until level 50, your later seperated from many post 50 characters. I'm not talking about the need of each character to upgrade their gear or any other work to be endgame viable but I'm specifically talking about how the game continues to lengthen the seperation from a new 50/VR1 to the viable endgame level of today's VR11-VR12.

It begins with the game having a much lower VR max level that is now a couple of VR levels higher and one that continues to be raised. Also considering the exp rate of change and the nerfs of exp spots. For a long time players were unable to gain VR exp other than jumping into VR content which is silly based on how the game is set up.

The problem is that ZOS is intentionally lengthening the amount of time, the amount of exp and the number of efficient ways and places a character can progress to be viable at the end game content whether that is PvE or PvP.

So in asking ZOS if they will start removing VR soon, it's addressing the many posts that gripe about not being able to play with others or being stuck at certain parts of VR content. It addresses the nerfs to exp and the clarification of where the champion level system is going.

The VR levels are a big problem and have not always been as big of a problem but as months pass, ZOS is intentionally slowing down vertical progression to specific characters.

When the game starts allowing players to progress through the system that ZOS is forcing us to level in, and also remove the system that they are making it very hard to progress in, the game will be better.

That's thr problem with VR that will not be a problem once VR is removed.

Then content makes sense because it can be added in a way that also allows players to play with others and enjoy the game vs grinding for a VR level only to be allowed to participate in other content.

If this were gear only...no problem cause you would gain gear by playing. This is adding weeks or months worth of leveling per character just to get to a point to where you can start playing with others again.

*lots of edits and typos*

i dont see the players at diablo 3 complaining.. they finish easy and normal, then jump right into hard mode, nightmare, and inferno.. oh and its set up pretty much the same way, you fight the same monsters over and over with increased stats and HP

That's not how Diablo 3 works at all
D3 has a 1-70 character level and then at 70 the account earns paragon levels. Paragon skills are accessible just like champion points in ESO.

Diablo doesn't force people to play through each mode but it offers different difficulties at any time. It even allows you to skip quests and play with a friend at any level.

The way ESO is today would be like adding 150 more levels per character after level 70 before any character could access the rifts or key wardens and bounty modes.

NewBlacksmurf

Endurance wrote: »

they dont need to remove veteran levels, they need to add more. ALSO they need to properly scale stats according to that level as well as equipment

- A veteran rank 1 would probably have about 11k ~ 12k HP/MP/STA.. veteran rank 14's should have around 60k~75k HP/MP/STA

- yes monsters are easy.. so scale that too! make it so its harder and harder to the point where its not even possible to solo anymore

Explain exactly why they need to add more VR levels vs using the champion system and altering the affects of champion skills?

Pausekey

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Hey everyone, this has nothing to do with dropping anyone to level 50.
Just as it works today you ding 50, and then instead of the next exp going to VR1, it would label you as champion level "x" and continue to boost account exp as the champion system does today.

Raising the character levels isn't a part of the conversion as ZOS isn't looking at raising the max character level because VR is much higher than 50. The goal is to finish the conversion they started.

In essence a VR1 = champ levels 1-5
VR2 = champ levels 6-10
VR3 = champ levels 11-15
......
VR14 = champ levels 70+

The gear and item requirements would also follow these champion levels.
The NPC could respectively follow this conversion too so it's easy to notice progression and content difficulty.

This is a simplistic change towards ZOS's VR removal.

But anyone with an existing vet 14 has 70 points now. I have over a hundred champ points. So essentially (because CP is account bound) once my character goes from 49 to 50 they would suddenly jump to the old VR 14 strength?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

I dont see the problem. I like the fact as do a lot of people playing the game that we can use our same character for all three factions quests.