Will you please complete the VR level removal / conversion to champion system by May (part 1)

Xjcon

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You can have your very own Champion Points, As you progress through vet ranks you gain CP also.

Xjcon

fromtesonlineb16_ESO wrote: »

Grapdjan wrote: »

Once again I am baffled by the some of the community's basic MMO ignorance in not seeing, or refusing to see, that an interminable solo experience over several million experience points leads to a fall in subs, less people to play with, less dev money, ultimately a worse gaming experience.

What you fail to see is that a 1990s group-or-die forced-group-to-level game will keep even fewer players.

Right now the level cap is effectively VR10 for a large number of people since progress beyond that is forced-group and many of us don't want to have to 'group up' simply to gain levels: grouping should be about gearing, not leveling.

It's not that hard to grind the points, if you can't be bothered to finish out those points solo what makes you so sure you even want to get to the end of the game? I mean 99% of the game after vet 14 is group content.

wraith808

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

There is no logic in this. There are two forms of advancement going on at the same time... Vertical, and Horizontal but really vertical.

Your experience goes towards both. the 70 CP was as compensation for the fact that people had already gained XP prior to the CP release.

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO

No, there is no need to remove vet levels. You want to run gold keys at vet1? Totally doable, just find a vet1 team.

This game needs additions not removals. The vet levels give stats, skillpoints and a sense of progression.

Again, HANDS OFF my vet levels!

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

If you level to VR14 now you get way more than 70 points. If anything we got screwed (those of us with max level chars at the switch).

Zheg

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

If you level to VR14 now you get way more than 70 points. If anything we got screwed (those of us with max level chars at the switch).

A v14 was given 70 CP when 1.6 dropped.

If you level a character from v1 to v14 now, that's 14,000,000 xp. Each champion point represents 200,000 xp.

14,000,000 / 200,000 = 70

Math hard? Sure there's enlightenment, but the v14s who started at 70 points also get enlightenment, so that point is moot.

wraith808

Zheg wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

If you level to VR14 now you get way more than 70 points. If anything we got screwed (those of us with max level chars at the switch).

A v14 was given 70 CP when 1.6 dropped.

If you level a character from v1 to v14 now, that's 14,000,000 xp. Each champion point represents 200,000 xp.

14,000,000 / 200,000 = 70

Math hard? Sure there's enlightenment, but the v14s who started at 70 points also get enlightenment, so that point is moot.

I guess math is hard when the facts are wrong... because as of right now, we're getting 1CP per 400,000 XP. The 200k conversion was only for experience gained before 1.6 was released.

Ysne58

That's 100,000 exp while enlightened, 400,000 while unenlightened.

Zheg

wraith808 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

A v14 was given 70 CP when 1.6 dropped.

If you level a character from v1 to v14 now, that's 14,000,000 xp. Each champion point represents 200,000 xp.

14,000,000 / 200,000 = 70

Math hard? Sure there's enlightenment, but the v14s who started at 70 points also get enlightenment, so that point is moot.

I guess math is hard when the facts are wrong... because as of right now, we're getting 1CP per 400,000 XP. The 200k conversion was only for experience gained before 1.6 was released.

True, my bad, no coffee this morning. But the point still holds, if it's 400k per CP, then the guy I quoted is even more wrong. He said you get more CP by leveling to v14 now, and in fact, you'll get half.

7788b14_ESO

They could also just raise max level to 64.

NewBlacksmurf

tallenn wrote: »

Where did the information that Veteran Ranks were being removed come from? Is there a link to a ZOS post or blog? I seem to remember an update about a month ago, maybe a little more, about when it would supposedly happen, but I don't recall, exactly.

I'm not interested in getting caught up in the debate here, I'm just looking for information from ZOS itself on this issue. If you know of anything that's been said, a link would be much appreciated.

This was from a live Twitch feed by ZOS ask the devs. I don't have a link but it should be saved on their twitch page.

NewBlacksmurf

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

It shouldn't be removed they should just work like light levels in Destiny.


equipping a full set of vr14 armor makes you vr14.

removing it makes you vr1.

the reason for this is so ZOS doesn't need to waste time with a stat squish like WoW did.

Current cap is vr14, they add wrothgar that has vr15 gear and vr15 mats.

I have to disagree. IF they did this a lot of people would quit.

elaborate.

or should DLC's not offer anything and just simply new zones to explore?

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

It shouldn't be removed they should just work like light levels in Destiny.


equipping a full set of vr14 armor makes you vr14.

removing it makes you vr1.

the reason for this is so ZOS doesn't need to waste time with a stat squish like WoW did.

Current cap is vr14, they add wrothgar that has vr15 gear and vr15 mats.

I have to disagree. IF they did this a lot of people would quit.

elaborate.

or should DLC's not offer anything and just simply new zones to explore?

Gear in destiny is based off a light level. Other than the gear the character is level 20.
In order to have a similar change in ESO, in addition to the work of removing VR, they would have to somehow remove the player stats too.

Then every piece of gear would have to be made to give those stats back as everyone doesn't place the stats in the same way. Also taking something someone who earned it isn't cool.

not really a good counter argument since before VR ranks didn't give stats and only did to give a pseudo feel of progression.

If VR is removed they may simply just allow you to choose 14 attributes at level 50.

so if that is what happens then making the level VR gear you are determine your level makes perfect sense smsand would require less work from the devs.

oh a new dlc comes out, add mats so crafters can create next VR equipment and dlc drops next tier.

instead of multiple copies of level 50 armor where you are literally just confused why X piece is weaker then Y piece (invisible item levels)

this changes your veteran ranks into a non toxic gear score.

oh that guy is VR14 so he has a full set of vr14 armor.

Giving anyone free stuff isn't the direction that this should take. Removing needless limitations is fine but giving any player points or skills that others had to earn is wrong.

Multiple copies of armor???
In my comments the VR armor doesn't drop to 50, it moves from VR "x" level requirement to Champion level requirements based on the 5 champion levels per VR level conversion ZOS is using to gran exp points to champion levels from pre earned VR before patch 2.0.

I really feel like you haven't read the original post and comments but are just responding to the latest comments on later pages in this thread.
Maybe I'm wrong but your comments communicate of lack of information that is already present on prior pages.

wraith808

Zheg wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

A v14 was given 70 CP when 1.6 dropped.

If you level a character from v1 to v14 now, that's 14,000,000 xp. Each champion point represents 200,000 xp.

14,000,000 / 200,000 = 70

Math hard? Sure there's enlightenment, but the v14s who started at 70 points also get enlightenment, so that point is moot.

I guess math is hard when the facts are wrong... because as of right now, we're getting 1CP per 400,000 XP. The 200k conversion was only for experience gained before 1.6 was released.

True, my bad, no coffee this morning. But the point still holds, if it's 400k per CP, then the guy I quoted is even more wrong. He said you get more CP by leveling to v14 now, and in fact, you'll get half.

Nope. That was a set amount, and now I can see even more why they did it based on that number. Leveling now, you get 400k/100k depending on enlightenment, and have content to get you there. If you're VR14, and done with the content, your options of making more XP are limited.

wraith808

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

They could also just raise max level to 64.

Ummm... what would that do? It's just levels by another name with VRs.

NewBlacksmurf

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

No, there is no need to remove vet levels. You want to run gold keys at vet1? Totally doable, just find a vet1 team.

This game needs additions not removals. The vet levels give stats, skillpoints and a sense of progression.

Again, HANDS OFF my vet levels!

That is a problem when the LFG tool is broken and not being worked on by ZOS for over 4 months now.

Guppet

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

They could also just raise max level to 64.

Vet levels are not comparable to normal levels, they are the equivalent of 8-10 normal levels. So naming it level 64 would be like changing a 5k run to marathon length and expecting people not to notice.

NewBlacksmurf

7788b14_ESO wrote: »

They could also just raise max level to 64.

This was already discussed as a bad idea and negative move based on how character levels work pre 50. Adding the max to 64 would need to be 150+ based on how exp works.

Also how would someone get to 64 if they are struggling to get to VR14

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

That is a problem when the LFG tool is broken and not being worked on by ZOS for over 4 months now.

That's a completely seperate problem and I'm still not convinced it's broken; just hard to use, so most don't.

Regardless, use zone chat, join/make a guild for pve, ask in forums. After all, we are all playing mmos to socialize, right? Else we'd be playing singleplayer games...

NewBlacksmurf

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

That is a problem when the LFG tool is broken and not being worked on by ZOS for over 4 months now.

That's a completely seperate problem and I'm still not convinced it's broken; just hard to use, so most don't.

Regardless, use zone chat, join/make a guild for pve, ask in forums. After all, we are all playing mmos to socialise, right? Else we'd be playing singleplayer games...

I respect the way you choose to play but the problems are that using your methods do the following:
-fill the forums with threads that do not belong as there is not a LfG section
-fill the zone chat with spam that is by design not the correct usage of the channel
-I and many others are members of 4 or more guilds but that doesn't address that each of us play at different times at different levels
-MMO's to socialize....I play because I enjoy playing online with others but I do not play just to socialize and try to encourage others to be respectful that everyone isn't happy to see all the ideal non-gaming chatter.


Honestly the comments you make fall into other issues of threads I participate in.

Back on topic though. VR levels accompanied with other issues together are causing a negative experience for non VR14 characters.

For months I tried many of the approaches that you mention and began to realize that the problem is the intentional ZOS design to further lengthen and seperated players at level 50 because a group of individuals in closed BETA came up with the idea that it's necessary to move a at from PvP to PvE so that people were not forced to PvP.

It was first made hard and requiring group play but PPP complained it was too hard.
It was made easier so then ppl complained about needing more levels cause it went too fast
Then it later was grinder so they kept raising the max VR levels.
Then they decided to slow down progression because the gap was too far.
Added in Caldwells to give ppl non PvP exp to earn but nerfed the effectiveness of grinding.

By ZOS's design the VR levels began problematic and continue to be problematic, restrictive, limiting, separating, and non essential. Now they added CP levels on top of VR levels and continue the same direction of slowing down progression


Many, many, many reasons that it needs to go away.
There isn't one reason for them to stay but many ideas around why it's hard to remove them.

It's obvious...it's time to remove them

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

That is a problem when the LFG tool is broken and not being worked on by ZOS for over 4 months now.

That's a completely seperate problem and I'm still not convinced it's broken; just hard to use, so most don't.

Regardless, use zone chat, join/make a guild for pve, ask in forums. After all, we are all playing mmos to socialise, right? Else we'd be playing singleplayer games...

it isn't broken I use it for pledges and doing dungeons on my alts all the time lol...

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

By ZOS's design the VR levels began problematic and continue to be problematic, restrictive, limiting, separating, and non essential. Now they added CP levels on top of VR levels and continue the same direction of slowing down progression


Many, many, many reasons that it needs to go away.
There isn't one reason for them to stay but many ideas around why it's hard to remove them.

It's obvious...it's time to remove them

Would you feel better if the level cap was simply extended to 90? Because that would be the direct equivelent of VR levels. (not 180, because gaining levels is supposed to slow down).

This is simply a matter of wanting things to be nerfed, of wanting things to be blander, easier, more casual. Well, I say we've seen enough of that already. Anyone that has fought Gutsripper or Doshia in beta knows what I'm talking about. Playing an mmo implies you can afford to spend a lot of time. There are other options for people who can't.

Plus, while I'd loath to see it, we'll soon find vet14 potions in the crown store if people continue bellyaching.

Also:
You don't need 100 forum threads for lfg. Just a couple, one for EU one for US. That's just common sense. If someone sees a thread with 100+ posts about grouping, he'll post there. If such a post count cannot be reached, there are far less people with that problem than you imply.

Zone chat is there so that players in that zone communicate. Guild recruitment, bad jokes, Godwin's law and lfg are all perfectly valid uses.

You become part of a pve guild SO THAT you can find people to pve with there. If neither your levels nor your availabe times match, WHY are you part of that guild?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO

wraith808 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Zheg wrote: »

A v14 was given 70 CP when 1.6 dropped.

If you level a character from v1 to v14 now, that's 14,000,000 xp. Each champion point represents 200,000 xp.

14,000,000 / 200,000 = 70

Math hard? Sure there's enlightenment, but the v14s who started at 70 points also get enlightenment, so that point is moot.

I guess math is hard when the facts are wrong... because as of right now, we're getting 1CP per 400,000 XP. The 200k conversion was only for experience gained before 1.6 was released.

True, my bad, no coffee this morning. But the point still holds, if it's 400k per CP, then the guy I quoted is even more wrong. He said you get more CP by leveling to v14 now, and in fact, you'll get half.

Nope. That was a set amount, and now I can see even more why they did it based on that number. Leveling now, you get 400k/100k depending on enlightenment, and have content to get you there. If you're VR14, and done with the content, your options of making more XP are limited.

Thanks for pointing out that stuff to him. Saved me some typing.

Rune_Relic

wraith808 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

There is no logic in this. There are two forms of advancement going on at the same time... Vertical, and Horizontal but really vertical.

Your experience goes towards both. the 70 CP was as compensation for the fact that people had already gained XP prior to the CP release.

No... all those CP points you received was part of the Vet rank removal process and compensation in lieu of removal.
Now everyone is crying when its time to pay the debt.
So either return the upto 70 CP points you received and keep the ranks....or take the CP points and accept the loss of the ranks.

NewBlacksmurf

b_archaonpreeb18_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

By ZOS's design the VR levels began problematic and continue to be problematic, restrictive, limiting, separating, and non essential. Now they added CP levels on top of VR levels and continue the same direction of slowing down progression


Many, many, many reasons that it needs to go away.
There isn't one reason for them to stay but many ideas around why it's hard to remove them.

It's obvious...it's time to remove them

Would you feel better if the level cap was simply extended to 90? Because that would be the direct equivelent of VR levels. (not 180, because gaining levels is supposed to slow down).

This is simply a matter of wanting things to be nerfed, of wanting things to be blander, easier, more casual. Well, I say we've seen enough of that already. Anyone that has fought Gutsripper or Doshia in beta knows what I'm talking about. Playing an mmo implies you can afford to spend a lot of time. There are other options for people who can't.

Plus, while I'd loath to see it, we'll soon find vet14 potions in the crown store if people continue bellyaching.

Also:
You don't need 100 forum threads for lfg. Just a couple, one for EU one for US. That's just common sense. If someone sees a thread with 100+ posts about grouping, he'll post there. If such a post count cannot be reached, there are far less people with that problem than you imply.

Zone chat is there so that players in that zone communicate. Guild recruitment, bad jokes, Godwin's law and lfg are all perfectly valid uses.

You become part of a pve guild SO THAT you can find people to pve with there. If neither your levels nor your availabe times match, WHY are you part of that guild?

No I would not like a higher max character level and the direction ZOS is taking is right...as stated many times the max character level is perfect at 50, why change what works. Also, level 90 is not the equivalent level conversion.
Clearing a faction gives a player at least 45-50 levels per faction. So silver and gold plus your original faction puts you at 150+
That's only taking you to VR10. Now to get to VR12 that's a couple more so it's at least 150+ character levels to be equivalent.

It's not a matter of wanting things nerfed. Please read the prior pages as part of people's complaints are that exp and NPC difficulty was nerfed. That is the opposite of what people want...no one wants nerfs to NPC or exp gains.

LFG threads....so basically NO. If you don't follow go to the Destiny Forums. That's an example of a game lacking a LFG tool for certain encounters. There are literally hundreds of thousands of new posts and comments each week. That is a terrible experience especially having to tab out of the game just to find a group.

Exp guilds....guilds have max of members so while that approach may have worked for some it's not probable for all

Zone chat is NOT for most of the things you listed but due to poor systems it's used in other manners. I literally play with zone chat off from 1-50 just to escape the recruiting, trade, crap convo, spamming, etc. I don't play to just sit and talk to ppl. I play to enjoy the game and talk to be better or help players who have in game related questions.


Back on topic....
ZOS is removing a problem as the benefits of removing VR levels far outweighs the complexity of removing them. There are literally no reason not to remove them. Let's stay on topic please about VR levels.

If you want to comment about LFzg tool, there is a very active thread going on.

andrantos

If they start itemizing against the number of Champion Points players have acquired, we'll essentially be back in the boat of what made VR such a terrible design/idea. Basically, instead ranks being represented by a "level" they would now be represented by some arbitrary number of Champion Points - bad idea and would defeat the whole purpose of getting rid of VR.

Essentially, any vertical gear progression in the end-game should be completely independent of Champion Points.

One of the biggest flaws of the VR system was the fact that it was itemized no different than level tiers. My personal hope is that they are taking their time on VR removal because:
1. they have to figure out how to untether VR from itemization (crafting, drops, items, etc..)
2. rebalance end-game adventure zones
3. rethink any dependencies the pvp system has on VR

If they simply substitute "CP Ranks" for VR, then what was the whole point of the CP system to begin with?

NewBlacksmurf

andrantos wrote: »

If they start itemizing against the number of Champion Points players have acquired, we'll essentially be back in the boat of what made VR such a terrible design/idea. Basically, instead ranks being represented by a "level" they would now be represented by some arbitrary number of Champion Points - bad idea and would defeat the whole purpose of getting rid of VR.

Essentially, any vertical gear progression in the end-game should be completely independent of Champion Points.

One of the biggest flaws of the VR system was the fact that it was itemized no different than level tiers. My personal hope is that they are taking their time on VR removal because:
1. they have to figure out how to untether VR from itemization (crafting, drops, items, etc..)
2. rebalance end-game adventure zones
3. rethink any dependencies the pvp system has on VR

If they simply substitute "CP Ranks" for VR, then what was the whole point of the CP system to begin with?

This is just part 1, not the end all of VR removal.
You make solid points and regarding gear progression, I agree.

This is just part 1 to convert the VR gear problem into a logic so that ppl don't feel like hitting 50 makes them VR10-14 minus skills.

Minack

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

wraith808

Rune_Relic wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

There is no logic in this. There are two forms of advancement going on at the same time... Vertical, and Horizontal but really vertical.

Your experience goes towards both. the 70 CP was as compensation for the fact that people had already gained XP prior to the CP release.

No... all those CP points you received was part of the Vet rank removal process and compensation in lieu of removal.
Now everyone is crying when its time to pay the debt.
So either return the upto 70 CP points you received and keep the ranks....or take the CP points and accept the loss of the ranks.

No, it was not as compensation. It was as a move towards a final goal, that may or may not occur. That was clearly stated (other than the may not- but that's why we're having this discussion).

Minack wrote: »

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

Fallacies in debate don't give your argument any more weight. From what I've seen on the boards (admittedly a small sample set), and experienced personally, the problem wasn't in the VRs. The problem was in the details of implementation, probably brought on by the fact that in the end, people wanted to be able to go through all three factions' contents without making alts in other alliances. They decided to implement that- but overestimated peoples' willingness to grind through single player content, and underestimated the reward to make them actually *worth* it. 10 levels of XP for the same (and less in the beginning) reward than going through normal levels? Who thought that was going to be received well?

They should take the time to implement any changes in a way that doesn't leave those issues in, and also doesn't create more because it was done off the cuff.

My suggestions would be to leave them at this point, and

1. change the progression to be linear as compared to 1-50 rather than static as it is now, or multiplicative (of a sort) as it was before.
2. Remove any level gate on areas/content past needing to be veteran.
3. Normalize XP gain across a variety of sources.
4. combine the VR areas, i.e. make them static and shared, so that when you go to Wayrest for instance, all three factions are represented. Not sure of the exact details, but I think it would make it so that it seemed like a different experience. Also open the quests/questlines/areas, so the players can choose how and where to explore.

Just my opinion on a possible plan towards removal.

NewBlacksmurf

wraith808 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

wraith808 wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Rune_Relic wrote: »

So those who don't want to get rid of Vet levels. Can I have all your CPs you were awarded for them ?

You have to earn CP just like everyone else. Nothing gets handed to anyone.

So what was those 70 CP handed out for then ?
You know the 200,000xp per CP exchange system we had ?

Time to pay the debt.

There is no logic in this. There are two forms of advancement going on at the same time... Vertical, and Horizontal but really vertical.

Your experience goes towards both. the 70 CP was as compensation for the fact that people had already gained XP prior to the CP release.

No... all those CP points you received was part of the Vet rank removal process and compensation in lieu of removal.
Now everyone is crying when its time to pay the debt.
So either return the upto 70 CP points you received and keep the ranks....or take the CP points and accept the loss of the ranks.

No, it was not as compensation. It was as a move towards a final goal, that may or may not occur. That was clearly stated (other than the may not- but that's why we're having this discussion).

Minack wrote: »

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

Fallacies in debate don't give your argument any more weight. From what I've seen on the boards (admittedly a small sample set), and experienced personally, the problem wasn't in the VRs. The problem was in the details of implementation, probably brought on by the fact that in the end, people wanted to be able to go through all three factions' contents without making alts in other alliances. They decided to implement that- but overestimated peoples' willingness to grind through single player content, and underestimated the reward to make them actually *worth* it. 10 levels of XP for the same (and less in the beginning) reward than going through normal levels? Who thought that was going to be received well?

They should take the time to implement any changes in a way that doesn't leave those issues in, and also doesn't create more because it was done off the cuff.

My suggestions would be to leave them at this point, and

1. change the progression to be linear as compared to 1-50 rather than static as it is now, or multiplicative (of a sort) as it was before.
2. Remove any level gate on areas/content past needing to be veteran.
3. Normalize XP gain across a variety of sources.
4. combine the VR areas, i.e. make them static and shared, so that when you go to Wayrest for instance, all three factions are represented. Not sure of the exact details, but I think it would make it so that it seemed like a different experience. Also open the quests/questlines/areas, so the players can choose how and where to explore.

Just my opinion on a possible plan towards removal.

Now that's what I call input and thoughtful. Thanks for contributing....

but still no response from ZOS....even after tagging them

Xjcon

Minack wrote: »

Anyone who is not a complete moron would support VR removal. In my opinion, VR/Cadwell S&G has been one of the worst design choices in MMO history and is the reason most people quit playing.

Really I see it the other way around. To want VR ranks removed is understandable but calling the people who worked through the system the way it was intended to be play morons is silly.

All I get out of this is that people want to be at end game in as short a period as possible with little to no thought in too how the end game would end up.