The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF
-
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
thats like people saying Bows are not OP, just listen for the arrows flying at you and dodge roll that way they dont get the sneak attack on you (seriously people have told me this >_> )!
dodge roll requires stamina...I just offload 3 lethal arrows + incoming damage from all around needs blocked which only works when you have stamina and also eats your remaining stamina...every hit you take.
Magicka builds really dont get it. I have to use all my stamina to do similar damage to you using all magicka. Whe my stamina is done thats it....game over. When your magicka is done...you still have full stamina thats only dipped into for block/dodge.
You get a free reserve tank....I do not.Edited by Rune_Relic on December 2, 2014 10:31PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited3 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.
You missed the part where I fired 3 shots the wing comes out and then they hit the DK right ? Its called travel time and snipe is faster now. Throw in random lag and its hit and pray.
If I knew they had wings...I would never have fired off 3 shots in the 1st place
Iwould have spread the reflect over several archers.
If you fired and you see the wings block, it's that simple. If you didn't see them then why not? I shoot DK's too. If I see the wings I know I am getting reflected so I block until I see the hits come back.Edited by Armitas on December 2, 2014 10:27PMRetired.
Nord mDK1 -
Rune_Relic✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.
You missed the part where I fired 3 shots the wing comes out and then they hit the DK right ? Its called travel time and snipe is faster now. Throw in random lag and its hit and pray.
If I knew they had wings...I would never have fired off 3 shots in the 1st place
Iwould have spread the reflect over several archers.
If you fired and you see the wings block, it's that simple. If you didn't see them then why not? I shoot DK's too. If I see the wings I know I am getting reflected so I block until I see the hits come back.
You missed the sequence of events again I see. Explains everything
The wings come out after the fact. If I see the wings beforehand on that player I wouldnt have been firing arrows at them.
Which is the point of the OP. No one in their right mind shoots arrows at DKs. They are efffectively immune to ranged attack.Edited by Rune_Relic on December 2, 2014 10:45PMAnything that can be exploited will be exploited1 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.
You missed the part where I fired 3 shots the wing comes out and then they hit the DK right ? Its called travel time and snipe is faster now. Throw in random lag and its hit and pray.
If I knew they had wings...I would never have fired off 3 shots in the 1st place
Iwould have spread the reflect over several archers.
If you fired and you see the wings block, it's that simple. If you didn't see them then why not? I shoot DK's too. If I see the wings I know I am getting reflected so I block until I see the hits come back.
You missed the sequence of events again I see. Explains everything
The wings come out after the fact. If I see the wings beforehand on that player I wouldnt have been firing arrows at them.
Which is the point of the OP. No one in their right mind shoots arrows at DKs. They are efffectively immune to ranged attack.
Even though the wings come out after the fact you can still block the reflected projectiles. There is no reason to stand there and let your own arrows kill you. Just block them when they come back.Retired.
Nord mDK1 -
Galalin✭✭✭✭✭Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »Rune_Relic wrote: »kkravaritieb17_ESO wrote: »Scales are fine atm, if you see the cast dont use projectiles if you do you re a noob. On the other hand the lethal arrow health debuff stack needs a nerf and soon cause a lot of people get irritated by that idiocy. And this comes from a sorc/templar.
At limit of range.
Shoots lethal arrow...shoots lethal arrow... shoots letha....wings come out.
Oh crap....Stops shooting.
1st hits.....reflected.....2nd hits...reflected...3rd hits reflected.
Dead.
If you know they are being reflected why not block them?
Because you dont know when they are coming and blocking eats stamina in a 30+ vs 30+ PVP stamina build where you have effects going off everywhere with enemy surrounding you.
Every block/dodge/sneak eats my damage until helpless prey.
To the other hut saying you cant be hit by 3 lethal arrows...yes you can from 1st hand experience.
Reflect comes with like10m long flapping dragon wings. If you are shooting a single target with a single target skill you should be able to see10meter long dragon wings coming out of that same target. Other than dragon leap it has to be the most explicit, noticeable skill in the game. If we are required to listen for whistles from bow users perhaps the bow user can be required to look for 10m long dragon wings.
You missed the part where I fired 3 shots the wing comes out and then they hit the DK right ? Its called travel time and snipe is faster now. Throw in random lag and its hit and pray.
If I knew they had wings...I would never have fired off 3 shots in the 1st place
Iwould have spread the reflect over several archers.
If you fired and you see the wings block, it's that simple. If you didn't see them then why not? I shoot DK's too. If I see the wings I know I am getting reflected so I block until I see the hits come back.
You missed the sequence of events again I see. Explains everything
The wings come out after the fact. If I see the wings beforehand on that player I wouldnt have been firing arrows at them.
Which is the point of the OP. No one in their right mind shoots arrows at DKs. They are efffectively immune to ranged attack.
Even though the wings come out after the fact you can still block the reflected projectiles. There is no reason to stand there and let your own arrows kill you. Just block them when they come back.
Exactly this ^^^
He did not miss any point1 -
Psilent✭✭✭✭✭Just be glad most DK's use Reflective Plate and not Volcanic or you would hate it more!0 -
Columba✭✭✭✭✭
✭I am a bow user, but bows need some counter, so I don't think a big nerf is the right thing to do. Impale works against this, and I'd like to see some other NB skills that work against it. I am levelling up sword and board to deal with the reeflect.
Also, is there a maximum length that reflect can be up, or is it spammable and can be up permanently?0 -
Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭The funny thing is, Reflective Scale is already a death sentence if you're fighting any other DK who's stamina build with Bow.
You reflect, He unloads a bunch of lethal arrows on ya, and then reflects them back for 35% more damage.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos0 -
Psilent✭✭✭✭✭Pixysticks wrote: »mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »Pixysticks wrote: »Crit surge should increase spell damage as well as weapon damage. Impen should just be a flat damage reduction instead of flat crit reduction.
That would fix sorcs.
Yeah, probably.
We've been screaming about impenetrable for months, to the point I'm losing faith they'll ever bother. If you could get up to (with legendary items) 5% off the crit dmg bonus with each piece it means 7 pieces = 35% deduction from the base 50% offered by crit. So crit attacks would hit for x1.15 instead of x1.5 worst case scenario. If someone has +65% crit damage (from Mundus stone) that's still x1.3 after the deductions.
It would still be pretty much essential for PvP but at least investing in a crit build would give you some steady rewards. And it would make Crit Surge give some steady rewards to Sorcs, kinda like NBs do with their damage skills.
I cancelled my sub a week ago because of it. I'll re-sub when heal debuff stacking is fixed and impen. is changed to some sort of flat damage reduction, or crit surge is changed to heal off of all damage for a lower amount.
No! Pixy, stop with the rage! What am I going to do without you? Please resub.
1 -
Milf_Hero✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »The funny thing is, Reflective Scale is already a death sentence if you're fighting any other DK who's stamina build with Bow.
You reflect, He unloads a bunch of lethal arrows on ya, and then reflects them back for 35% more damage.
Yeah teaches you dirty Bow users a lesson.
Why no one complain about Templars and blazing shields and sap essence or whatever that skills is that night blades use that sucks life from like 4 enemies and give it to themselves? I saw a night blade fight just as many people as a DK and his health not move an inch. DKs are your tanks. Templars are your tanks. Im not sure if the people here on this thread pve but the dungeons and other end game content really need DKs with reflective scales. So taking reflective scales and screwing with it will also effect your tanks for dungeons, how you clear DSA, or anything else that is to come. DKs don't live for ever. No one does. DKs will fight you face to face, so come get some. Find a way to counter the skill. They already nerfed talons so don't be afraid to get in close. if you lose 1v1 then the DK was the better man/woman that time. If its xv1, you and x amount of people, then he was just a good player. Yeah the skills may be good but it takes skill and knowledge of how and when to use these skills to really be good and to know how to counter you and x amount of people skills at the same time and stay alive. You name it, and ill kill it.1 -
cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭No one complains about templars and night blades because dk's are OP with there dragon scales. Before the Dragon scales Dk's were still op with there never ending green dragons blood spam. Those of you who think dk's will be dead meat with a lesser version of reflective scales you are wrong. I can't believe dk's have gone so long without a nerf to their survivability skills. I can't wait for the next update that's coming with all the changed and revised abilities. Though my faith that zos can balance anything properly is not very high, he'll they pretty much ignored pvp for 6 months with nothing new. It's not a fun getting when you beat on someone and not do any damage as its not fun to be killed in 2 seconds. I'm sick of 10 plus minute fights with dk's where they are barely trying and I'm working my ass off just to survive as a sorc with perfectly timed frags around there damn scales to do no damn damage. And when you finally wide the f'ers down they just f'ing heal back to full. Then most the time the fight gets interrupted by some f'er that came to help there over powered dk. It's not rock paper scissors. It's dk beats sorc, night, temp with there same flame whip charge reflective no skill be. Rant over. Again hoping *** fixed this next update cause what little faith I have is about gone.Guild UMBRA Chapter Lead
~Leper Si -V14 Sorcerer~
Youtube Channel - Leper
https://www.youtube.com/user/TheCozmon3c/videos5 -
Jahosefat✭✭✭✭Maybe I have changed my stance on this. Don't change RS, just give sorcs a DK killing ability Morph of frags with no proc chance but can't be reflected? Velocious curse dmg increased to ~1000 dmg with healing debuff? A melee attack reflect??
lol what do some sorcs think?Joeshock- AD NA AB Thorn Chill Sorc New Eden Low Sec Roamer
Fight not with monsters lest ye become one1 -
Xeniph✭✭✭✭✭It would seem that some folks in this thread are not actually reading the well thought out and constructive posts.
Look I get it, I have a v14 DK. I too absolutely LOVE Scales when I am playing her. The more coherent and constructive posts are not calling for blanket nerfs, simply asking for an adjustment.
Also, I agree that Lethal arrow in it's current form is just silly with the heal debuff stacking. But very few people are actually taking about the bow, though everyone who cites "L2P" and other nonsense seem to be focusing on it.
And stop with the " DK's need a counter to snipe" because all classes have to deal with it. Even without Scales, you would be no worse off than any other class. You still have a heal and a shield without even having a specific weapon requirement, and only the Templar can match that.
I also agree that folks who only slot projectile abilities, need to adjust a bit. The fact is the skill is too broad. In it's current form it nearly neuters 2 weapon skill lines, except for 3 aoe. Heck, even DW has a skill that's reflected. This is to include Light and Heavy attacks. In fact, the only ranged weapon that is not reflected is a resto staff.
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
All for the low cost of 368 magicka. Now that is a scenario in a perfect world, but it is completely possible. Heck, it can increase exponentially as the number of attackers grow, such as at a Keep defense. And with the ability to overwrite itself, while not mana efficient, is completely plausible.
Absofriggenlutely Scales needs either a rate limit on the numbers of projectiles it can reflect per cast, or it's cost need to be increased to bring it more in line with the resources it is able to negate and the damage it is capable of reflecting. UNLESS you ask any DK, including myself when I am playing her.
Come to think about it, just revert it back to consuming stamina/magicka based on the base cost of the ability reflected, like it used to.
All the DK's can defend the skill all they want to. But WE, I include myself, know for a fact it is OP atm and giggle every time we cast it.
There is another option though, change Defensive Stance in the 1h line to last 4 seconds and reflect all projectiles without the bonus damage.
At least then the class diversification in pvp would broaden more.
And no, I am not whining. Rather trying to shed some light on the potential of the ability, where otherwise may have not been considered.Edited by Xeniph on December 3, 2014 7:15AMHere since Beta.
Characters: All of them, both Stamina and Magicka.6 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.Edited by Maulkin on December 3, 2014 10:45AMEU | PC | AD3 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭In fact, the only ranged weapon that is not reflected is a resto staff.
wrong :P lightning staff is not reflected but since it is not fire it is WEAK! Fire dominates this game while other elements are just an after thought
At least you understand what this (and my threads) have been about. Not nerfing the skill but just simply adjusting and making things that should not be reflected, well, not get reflected.
All DK can argue all day long about this skill but when you see MORE flappy birds than any other class in the game running around pvp; well it would appear some things need to be adjusted.
0 -
Jahosefat✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.
I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
And I want someone to explain to me how "going melee" helps a sorc vs a DK? What melee is viable for a sorc? Crit charge with crit surge (this isn't even really melee)? And is completely countered by blocking. Uppercut? Great I'll stand next to the DK (who has way more healing potential than a melee sorc) where he can do full DPS. What "awesome" dk smashing melee do sorcs have access to?
It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
Joeshock- AD NA AB Thorn Chill Sorc New Eden Low Sec Roamer
Fight not with monsters lest ye become one5 -
Lava_Croft✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
This has been the most constructive and informative post in the thread so far, no matter what you think of the argument itself. Props!It would seem that some folks in this thread are not actually reading the well thought out and constructive posts.
Look I get it, I have a v14 DK. I too absolutely LOVE Scales when I am playing her. The more coherent and constructive posts are not calling for blanket nerfs, simply asking for an adjustment.
Also, I agree that Lethal arrow in it's current form is just silly with the heal debuff stacking. But very few people are actually taking about the bow, though everyone who cites "L2P" and other nonsense seem to be focusing on it.
And stop with the " DK's need a counter to snipe" because all classes have to deal with it. Even without Scales, you would be no worse off than any other class. You still have a heal and a shield without even having a specific weapon requirement, and only the Templar can match that.
I also agree that folks who only slot projectile abilities, need to adjust a bit. The fact is the skill is too broad. In it's current form it nearly neuters 2 weapon skill lines, except for 3 aoe. Heck, even DW has a skill that's reflected. This is to include Light and Heavy attacks. In fact, the only ranged weapon that is not reflected is a resto staff.
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
All for the low cost of 368 magicka. Now that is a scenario in a perfect world, but it is completely possible. Heck, it can increase exponentially as the number of attackers grow, such as at a Keep defense. And with the ability to overwrite itself, while not mana efficient, is completely plausible.
Absofriggenlutely Scales needs either a rate limit on the numbers of projectiles it can reflect per cast, or it's cost need to be increased to bring it more in line with the resources it is able to negate and the damage it is capable of reflecting. UNLESS you ask any DK, including myself when I am playing her.
Come to think about it, just revert it back to consuming stamina/magicka based on the base cost of the ability reflected, like it used to.
All the DK's can defend the skill all they want to. But WE, I include myself, know for a fact it is OP atm and giggle every time we cast it.
There is another option though, change Defensive Stance in the 1h line to last 4 seconds and reflect all projectiles without the bonus damage.
At least then the class diversification in pvp would broaden more.
And no, I am not whining. Rather trying to shed some light on the potential of the ability, where otherwise may have not been considered.
3 -
Juraigr✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.
I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
And I want someone to explain to me how "going melee" helps a sorc vs a DK? What melee is viable for a sorc? Crit charge with crit surge (this isn't even really melee)? And is completely countered by blocking. Uppercut? Great I'll stand next to the DK (who has way more healing potential than a melee sorc) where he can do full DPS. What "awesome" dk smashing melee do sorcs have access to?
It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
Ooh 500 unblockable damage is weak ok thenEU Worst DK , Best DK Singapore and NA also known as 'Special Snowflake'
Jurra - V14 Dragonknight Rank 38 August Palatine
Jurra Hex - V14 Sorcerer Rank 25 Colonel [SEMI-RETIRED until Zos fix this BS sorc nonsense]
LA DK Still OP :P
One of the Three Light Armor DK's
#200StandardOfMightFFS
#RevertAshCloud
#RevertNewAnimations
#RevertUltiGain
#FixMoltenWhip
Grinding my way to August Palatine finally made it, still holding a torch for eso so now imma filthy casual1 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.
I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
And I want someone to explain to me how "going melee" helps a sorc vs a DK? What melee is viable for a sorc? Crit charge with crit surge (this isn't even really melee)? And is completely countered by blocking. Uppercut? Great I'll stand next to the DK (who has way more healing potential than a melee sorc) where he can do full DPS. What "awesome" dk smashing melee do sorcs have access to?
It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
Exactly, I HATE when people say "go melee if you want to fight a DK" ummm melee is NOT how I play my characters. Also; yes sorcs have some WEAK skills. LIke I said previously sure you can use VC and HOPE he uses stamina to get rid of it. Most dont since it is only 500 damage. Shattering Prison is better because most WILL dodge roll out of it.
Now we can move to AoE....no lets move on, AoE is just so pathetic. sure you could SP a DK (or ANYONE) and then throw down wall of elements combined with liquid lightning (really good combo) but, again, the damage is just not there to be viable. Yes I have over soft cap spell damage, a really nice crit chance, and some close to soft cap weapon damage. So WoE is not a half a55ed skill for me.
Bring AoE to pvp and watch people just laugh at you for wasting magicka trying to get them to stay in it. AoE needs to be buffed big time to be a viable option. Also if AoE took away stamina when people blocked through it (lets be honest EVERYONE block cast and most people run S&B for the stamina management). See the issue. Let AoE damage drain stamina Edited by Gorthax on December 3, 2014 1:17PM1 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Ooh 500 unblockable damage is weak ok then
its not unblockable ROFL! you can easily right click + left click out of it. at the cost of very little stamina (if you were built that way). 500 damage regardless is laughable for DK and templars as they can heal through it in a split second. So yea it is laughable when going against those two (assuming you were talking about velocious curse)
Edited by Gorthax on December 3, 2014 1:29PM0 -
Sanct16✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
That always comes to my mind when reading this thread.- EU - Raid Leader of Banana Zerg Squad
AD | AR 50 | Sanct Fir'eheal | ex Mana DK @31.10.2015
EP | AR 50 | Sanctosaurus | Mana NB
AD | AR 44 | rekt ya | Mana NB
AD | AR 41 | Sanct Thunderstorm | Mana Sorc
EP | AR 36 | S'na'ct | Mana NB {NA}
AD | AR 29 | Captain Full Fist| Stam DK
AD | AR 29 | Sanct The Dark Phoenix| Stam Sorc
EP | AR 16 | Horny Sanct | Stam Warden
EP | AR 16 | Sánct Bánáná Sláyér | Mana DK
DC | AR 13 | ad worst faction eu | Stam Sorc
DC | AR 13 | Lagendary Sanct | Mana NB
>320.000.000 AP2 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
*holds face with both hands*
No ship, Sherlock. Ofc a battle against a DK is a war of attrition trying to whittle down his resources. What else would you expect it to be? They're tanky class with loads of defensive mechanisms, why should you be able to blast them in seconds? What would their purpose in battle be, if you could just crushing shock them to death while maintaining your distance? What? To be free AP for 1-button CS or Snipe spams?
Also, why isn't a 5 minute combat between a DK and Sorc not indicative of balance but indicative of DK OPness? Surely 2 classes that can go at it for 5+ minutes are very close to balance, no? Offensive potential being counter-balanced by defensive potential to lead to a long long battle.It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
Well of course cry-babies will rejoice, because they'll have their own 1-button win mechanism, I expect nothing less. If you see the pattern of complains is this thread it comes mostly from Crushing Shock and Snipe builds.
The two types of builds that most profit from the game's current "play-safe" meta, that can clock the most kills/death by simply sitting behind the lines pressing 1 button, are actually demanding more nerfs to anything that stands in front of them in the battlefield. God forbid something survives through ranged spam.EU | PC | AD3 -
Gorthax✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
*holds face with both hands*
No ship, Sherlock. Ofc a battle against a DK is a war of attrition trying to whittle down his resources. What else would you expect it to be? They're tanky class with loads of defensive mechanisms, why should you be able to blast them in seconds? What would their purpose in battle be, if you could just crushing shock them to death while maintaining your distance? What? To be free AP for 1-button CS or Snipe spams?
Also, why isn't a 5 minute combat between a DK and Sorc not indicative of balance but indicative of DK OPness? Surely 2 classes that can go at it for 5+ minutes are very close to balance, no? Offensive potential being counter-balanced by defensive potential to lead to a long long battle.It will be a glorious day when a real counter to RS scales is introduced. All the sorcs that have trudged through this RS BS will probably pop to the top of the ladders (because sorcs take way more skill to play than easy-mode DKs "I PRESS TWO BUTTONS AND LIVE THROUGH IT ALL" ).
Well of course cry-babies will rejoice, because they'll have their own 1-button win mechanism, I expect nothing less. If you see the pattern of complains is this thread it comes mostly from Crushing Shock and Snipe builds.
The two types of builds that most profit from the game's current "play-safe" meta, that can clock the most kills/death by simply sitting behind the lines pressing 1 button, are actually demanding more nerfs to anything that stands in front of them in the battlefield. God forbid something survives through ranged spam.
No it does NOT show balance lol Because a sorc has to run away do something run away do something run away do something just to attempt to do stuff to a DK does not mean it is balanced. Especially when the DK just holds his shield and laughs then charges and Burning Talons you then whips you while holding his shield, then you dodge roll or BE to get away to repeat the process ALL while the DK regains stamina and health.
Clearly you do not see the dilemma here. A class with little to no damage going against a class that has survived multiple nerfs and is still king of the ring is not balanced lol Sorcs need some serious love. I want DoT to be good and viable against a DK and other classes. If they want to stand there holding block in my DoT AoE then they should be punished for it. Much like people who want to stand in Bat swarms feel they shouldnt die...guess what you should lol
As it sits right now, sorcs DoT is very VERY laughable. Block mitigates a good chunk of it at no stamina cost to them. If the DoT did not cost as much as it does AND drained stamina when being blocked then I would be happy(somewhat). Currently the ONLY means for a sorc to be viable outside of his negates in pvp is to use BE, VC (or SP depends on player), CF, MF, CW(last one is debatable).Edited by Gorthax on December 3, 2014 1:55PM3 -
pmn100b16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭A "tanky class" that puts out near the highest dps in the game. In my experience of other mmo's, if you're a tanky class, your damage output is negligible, not up there with the best. That's the only issue I have with DKs. Keep your scales, keep your mitigations, keep your insta-heals, but the damage output needs to be lowered.1 -
GhostShadows✭✭✭i play a templar thank char, and i dont have any problem with this skill.
every time i see wings i just use healing staff and recover stamina and magica during the scales time on other player.
i have a problem with other 2 skills, the bow prevent recover hp because cant heal my alies wat is my job. and the vamps X skill for feed than break blocks and dont spent skills bar slot. thats the skills that must be cheked.
sory for my poor inglish but i think u will hunderstand wat i mean0 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Now for some context: For argument sake.
Lets assume Scales costs 368 magicka per cast.
Lets also assume there are 10 ranged players targeting a DK.
(arbitrary numbers to follow)
Also, said players all attack the DK with a projectile skill that hits for 300 damage and costs 150 resource.
DK uses scales, spending 368 magicka and reflecting 10 attacks. (300+35%=405 x10 =4050 damage)
Lets again assume all of these targets prefer to not receive any of this reflected damage and that the cost of dodge roll is half of it's unmodified cost of.
Dodge roll = 210 stamina.
210 x10 = 2100 stamina.
Let's combine the cost of 10 players attacking one, with Scales up, using a projectile. Then factor in the cost to avoid their own damage together.
150 x10 = 1500 resources for abilities.
+
2100 stamina
_______________
Total 3600 combination of resources.
I'm getting to the end of my tether with these silly things I read. Skills are not built to cater for stupidity. If 10 people are sitting there throwing projectiles at a reflecting DK , that's 10 people that deserve more than a humongous loss of resources, they deserve to die (in game ofc). Absolutely 0 sympathy given from this Sorc.
When I drop an Absorption Field and people keep casting ground AoEs inside my field giving me 500hp and 370mgk for every single AoE I dispel, is that a case of skill over-efficiency or a case of over-stupidity? It was a rhetorical question.
I don't think this is a case of ignorance. I think some of the sorcs posting about this are very good sorcs that are more than capable of killing a dk.
The problem is that killing a DK (as a sorc) takes at least 5 minutes. The only reliable way to kill a DK as a sorc is to control distance and drain their resources over some extended period of time. And it takes this long not because the DK is good, but because RS is a counter to all major sorc dps (all 2: frags, crushing shock). Then you have to widdle down a character with great self-healing and resource management with the weakest DPS abilities available to a sorc. To balance this out sorcs should at least get a melee reflect
So you can kill a DK, you admit there is a reliable way to kill them but your complaint is that it takes to long to do so and it's too much trouble?
If it takes 5 minutes to kill a DK, then the DK couldn't kill you in 5 minutes either.Edited by Armitas on December 3, 2014 2:20PMRetired.
Nord mDK2 -
Armitas✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
What is the DK's current single target sustained DPS and how is this achieved while also a tank?pmn100b16_ESO wrote: »A "tanky class" that puts out near the highest dps in the game. In my experience of other mmo's, if you're a tanky class, your damage output is negligible, not up there with the best. That's the only issue I have with DKs. Keep your scales, keep your mitigations, keep your insta-heals, but the damage output needs to be lowered.Edited by Armitas on December 3, 2014 2:29PMRetired.
Nord mDK1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭No it does NOT show balance lol Because a sorc has to run away do something run away do something run away do something just to attempt to do stuff to a DK does not mean it is balanced. Especially when the DK just holds his shield and laughs then charges and Burning Talons you then whips you while holding his shield, then you dodge roll or BE to get away to repeat the process ALL while the DK regains stamina and health.
Why the hell not? It works. If it was the way you describe it I'd never be able to kill a DK but I can.
Why do you expect to just stand there in front a strong melee warrior and not have to move around with the skills you are given? You were given Bolt Escape for a reason. Use it strategically to apply damage and stun and to put any needed distance between you.
A friend of mine described the fights between a DK and Sorc as fight between a Matador and a bull. The bull charges (Invasion) while the Matador faints and moves behind him (Streak) applying small jabs all the time that will eventually wear him out. I thought it was a brilliant description.Clearly you do not see the dilemma here. A class with little to no damage going against a class that has survived multiple nerfs and is still king of the ring is not balanced lol Sorcs need some serious love. I want DoT to be good and viable against a DK and other classes. If they want to stand there holding block in my DoT AoE then they should be punished for it. Much like people who want to stand in Bat swarms feel they shouldnt die...guess what you should lol
I've already said in previous posts that Sorcs need their damage increased to 1.4 levels to be more in balance with DKs and NBs. I've listed reasons and example as well as potential changes.
Bumping up the damage of Sorcs doesn't mean we have to nerf the most useful skill of a tank class so they can just die to anything ranged.As it sits right now, sorcs DoT is very VERY laughable. Block mitigates a good chunk of it at no stamina cost to them. If the DoT did not cost as much as it does AND drained stamina when being blocked then I would be happy(somewhat). Currently the ONLY means for a sorc to be viable outside of his negates in pvp is to use BE, VC (or SP depends on player), CF, MF, CW(last one is debatable).
WTF are you talking about. Block does not mitigate Liquid Lightning AoE or any magicka AoE in fact, or DoTs. Do you even PvP?Edited by Maulkin on December 3, 2014 2:43PMEU | PC | AD0 -
Bipolo✭✭✭EDITED:No it does NOT show balance lol Because a sorc DK has to run away close gap do something run away close gap do something run away close gap do something just to attempt to do stuff to a DK Sorc does not mean it is balanced. Especially when the DK Sorc just holds his shield and laughs then charges Streaks and Burning Talons Encase/Mine's you then whips Curse/Fury's you while holding his shield, then you dodge roll or BE Damn, DK's cant escape to get away to repeat the process ALL while the DK Sorc regains stamina and health and magicka.
It had to be done...
Edited by Bipolo on December 3, 2014 2:37PMSkeggǫld, Skálmǫld, Skildir ro Klofnir
"Nords who prove themselves in battle awaken in the realm after death. Pain and illness vanish within the Hall of Valor.
Revelry is never-ending, mead flows freely, and the greatest Nords of all time compete in tests of strength and prowess. (...)
Through all the suffering and adversity in this world, true Nord warriors endure, for Sovngarde awaits."
- The Road to Sovngarde10 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I remember an equally ridiculous thread a while back:
Bolt Escape - Just delete it
People will just complain about everything that counters the way they play. Whether that's Fear, Bolt Escape or Scales.
And that's a fact.EU | PC | AD0
