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REFLECTIVE SCALES NEEDS NERF

  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    AsweetRoll wrote: »
    Armitas wrote: »

    As much as those fixes were necessary (I reiterate that), Sorc damage is at the moment too low considering the lack of defensive mechanisms and quick heals built in the class. Basically the problem of the class becoming more glass and less cannon at the same time, as I usually put it.
    When I think of the roles each class plays I see it like this.
    Temp = Healer
    DK = Tank
    NB = dps
    Sorc = ?... negate?

    Yeah sorcs need looking at for sure.

    Temp = healer
    DK = Tank
    NB = DPS/support heals
    Sorc = solo class

    Solo as in billy no-mates cause no one wants you?
    I'm joking :D

    Who wouldn't want a Negate-monkey in their group?
    Not joking :(
    Edited by Maulkin on December 3, 2014 9:01PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
    eventide03b14a_ESO
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    Armitas wrote: »
    Armitas wrote: »
    @Armitas‌ The fact that he was ultimately victorious is meaningless. He had to put a lot of work into that and is probably a very skilled player. But that's the point. A sorcerer has to be skilled in PvP to be successful, a nightblade also has to have some skill to be successful. A DK is a faceroll and presumably you don't agree because you play one. You are terrified that they are going to do something that might actually make you have to work at PvP. Stop pretending like DK's are this nuanced class that takes skill to play.

    That he won is kind of not meaningless. Puting a lot of work into a class is what you are suppose to do to win. PvP is not meant to be a face roll.

    DK is easier to play for sure. You can copy a build and look awesome against other unskilled players but as soon as you meet a skilled player things change if you don't have skill yourself. It means you have to work to win, which is how pvp should be.
    So you should only have to work if you are not a DK? Do you see how stupid your argument is yet, or are you going to double down and say something else?

    Who said a DK doesn't have to work against a skilled player? Sure wasn't me.
    Seriously?
    Armitas wrote: »
    DK is easier to play for sure.
    Your words. All things equal sorcerers will always be at a disadvantage to the DK class. My initial statement:
    The fact that he was ultimately victorious is meaningless.
    That was in reference to the context of this thread, where it's irrelevant that he won that fight. It's irrelevant because winning a single fight is meaningless. We are talking about a persistent pattern where a certain class has a distinct advantage over other classes. His description was only to showcase how difficult it is to actually take one down.

    I don't believe you are actually too stupid to understand this. I'm sure you are just trying to justify the fact your class is OP. Please don't prove me wrong by posting more nonsense.
    :trollin:
  • Maulkin
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    And I don't give five *** if you can't understand that a bow and a staff have ranged abilities that...*NEWS FLASH* DKs actually get bonus damage with fire! How long have you been a DK?? Are you honestly that clueless to the strengths of you class??

    Two problems with that.

    One, a DK with destro has no gap closer, thus he cannot use any of his cool melee abilities. This destro build is pretty much only encountered in AoE squads and ofc if you catch yourself in the range of one of those you be pretty dead anyway.

    Two, archers are stamina builds and the cost of RS is pretty high to keep up on demand like LA wearers. Usually Stamina DKs will cast it once, or twice as part of a roll dodging retreat or quick hiding behind the walls. When did you last see a DK archers standing in front of 20 people casting scales on timer and staying alive?

    The most efficient build for DK is S&B and LA which represents probably 80% of DKs out there. It's that build that everyone complains about. If you spec for range you don't fall into the category of DK that this thread complains about. You can't have best of both basically, both range and tankability.
    Edited by Maulkin on December 3, 2014 9:11PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • Xeniph
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    ***_Hero wrote: »
    Xeniph wrote: »

    The ability in question affects ALL ranged projectiles. Weapon and class skills alike. So if you feel like defending or condemning it, do us all a favor and try to remain on task and objective.



    I believe people are using sorc's nerf as a reason why DK abilities should be nerfed and also saying it should get the same penalty. Hmmm. So I guess your telling me I shouldn't point out why the sorc's nerf is the way it is because it makes since for an escape ability to cost more each cast than for a protection ability for a player who will be in the fray of a fight.

    I believe I am on topic. Thanks.

    Scales is not used to keep anyone "In the Fray" or the thick of battle, if you will. Once you are in melee range, it shouldn't be needed too much. The intent of the skill was clearly to aid in the DK getting to a ranged opponent to engage him in melee, thus eliminating limitless kiting situations.

    And most here have no issues with that intent. It's the raw potential of the skill that is downright OP. No other skill in the game can mitigate so much damage AND cause damage, with a single click.

    The skill is cheap, properly geared. As a DK, even I know this skill needs some sort of limit. But as it stands it's the single most powerful ability in the game, increasing in power the more enemies there are. Not just that, but exponentially, it has no limit.

    I don't want it taken away, but it needs some form of limitation to it. If you want to defend or justify the skill, you should try to do it on it's merits alone.

    Otherwise we should open up a bunch or other threads, declaring it's unfair that DK's and Temps have direct heals. Or that all but one class has damage shields.
    This is not a discussion of fairness, or even class balance. Rather the unlimited potential of one skill.


    Here since Beta.

    Characters: All of them, both Stamina and Magicka.
  • Armitas
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    Armitas wrote: »
    Armitas wrote: »
    @Armitas‌ The fact that he was ultimately victorious is meaningless. He had to put a lot of work into that and is probably a very skilled player. But that's the point. A sorcerer has to be skilled in PvP to be successful, a nightblade also has to have some skill to be successful. A DK is a faceroll and presumably you don't agree because you play one. You are terrified that they are going to do something that might actually make you have to work at PvP. Stop pretending like DK's are this nuanced class that takes skill to play.

    That he won is kind of not meaningless. Puting a lot of work into a class is what you are suppose to do to win. PvP is not meant to be a face roll.

    DK is easier to play for sure. You can copy a build and look awesome against other unskilled players but as soon as you meet a skilled player things change if you don't have skill yourself. It means you have to work to win, which is how pvp should be.
    So you should only have to work if you are not a DK? Do you see how stupid your argument is yet, or are you going to double down and say something else?

    Who said a DK doesn't have to work against a skilled player? Sure wasn't me.
    Seriously?
    Armitas wrote: »
    DK is easier to play for sure.
    Your words. All things equal sorcerers will always be at a disadvantage to the DK class. My initial statement:
    The fact that he was ultimately victorious is meaningless.
    That was in reference to the context of this thread, where it's irrelevant that he won that fight. It's irrelevant because winning a single fight is meaningless. We are talking about a persistent pattern where a certain class has a distinct advantage over other classes. His description was only to showcase how difficult it is to actually take one down.

    I don't believe you are actually too stupid to understand this. I'm sure you are just trying to justify the fact your class is OP. Please don't prove me wrong by posting more nonsense.

    How does easier to play equate to doesn't have to work in your mind?
    Retired.
    Nord mDK
  • Maulkin
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    Gorthax wrote: »
    Goldie wrote: »
    Spells & Ranged Attacks... May as well reflect ballista fire while we are at it! Remove melee reflect, or spells. FFS the entire EP population is a DK Vamp with bows in one hand and a Impulse spamming Destro staff in the other.

    Reflecting spells and ranged, some melee, and for 6-8 seconds, is a little much.

    I am surprised the entire population isn't running a DK+Vamp+Bow+Destro...

    Impulse +devouring swarm +reflective scales = rinse and repeat

    Snipe +Reflective Scales +Poison Arrow, poison arrow, poison arrow...

    Oh, and reflecting Ultimates? Do tell...

    None of our DKs are Vamps lol. Phoenix Rising just wipes the floor with yall and you make up these "builds" we are running. Love it.

    To be fair here it is pretty common to see a vast majority of EP flapping their wings running in a zerg lol but hey it does look pretty funny to see :D
    Every faction does it and I don't fault them for doing so. It's up to ZOS to balance the classes not the players. The DKs can defend their position all they want, at the end of the day nothing is immune to the nerf bat and their time will come.

    nerfbat1.jpg

    Lol. What do you mean "their time will come"? They have been directly nerfed more than any class since launch.

    It's been "their time" since April
    They have not been hit nearly as hard as sorcerers. What nerfing are you referring to specifically? And please keep in mind that fixing bugs and broken mechanics is not a nerf.

    You're losing a lot of validity when your responses show that high level of ignorance, do bear that in mind.

    Nerfs to DKs since launch:
    1) Inhale target cap changed from 6 to 3
    2) Standard of Might dmg increase and damage mitigation dropped from 35% to 20%
    3) Battle Roar return of resources nerfed from 100% to 70% of ultimate cost
    4) Lava Whip extra spell damage on fire attacks nerfed to be extra spell damage on Ardent Flame (skill tree) abilities only
    5) Talons DoT damage nerfed by 50% and range reduced from 8m to 6m
    6) Corrosive Armor ultimate duration reduced from 15" to 9"

    That's off the top of my head and does not include "fixes" such as Fragmented Shield multiplicative damage or Extended Chains angle introduction to stop pulling people off the walls.
    Edited by Maulkin on December 3, 2014 9:32PM
    EU | PC | AD
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
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    And I don't give five *** if you can't understand that a bow and a staff have ranged abilities that...*NEWS FLASH* DKs actually get bonus damage with fire! How long have you been a DK?? Are you honestly that clueless to the strengths of you class??

    Two problems with that.

    One, a DK with destro has no gap closer, thus he cannot use any of his cool melee abilities. This destro build is pretty much only encountered in AoE squads and ofc if you catch yourself in the range of one of those you be pretty dead anyway.

    Two, archers are stamina builds and the cost of RS is pretty high to keep up on demand like LA wearers. Usually Stamina DKs will cast it once, or twice as part of a roll dodging retreat or quick hiding behind the walls. When did you last see a DK archers standing in front of 20 people casting scales on timer and staying alive?

    The most efficient build for DK is S&B and LA which represents probably 80% of DKs out there. It's that build that everyone complains about. If you spec for range you don't fall into the category of DK that this thread complains about. You can't have best of both basically, both range and tankability.
    No gap closers? Wow.
    1. Shield Charge
    2. Critical Charge
    3. Fiery F****ing Grip
    4. Dragon Leap
    There's 4 off the top of my head. You...have...two...weapon slots. :o Please don't pretend like the class is that complicated. Please explain why using magicka for RS has anything to do with using stamina for bows? I use my magicka abilities just fine while using a bow and if my attacks don't get reflected then my target dies pretty quickly, well within 8 seconds and I'm sure that you can get at least 2 casts of RS off without losing all your magicka.
    :trollin:
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
    eventide03b14a_ESO
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    Gorthax wrote: »
    Goldie wrote: »
    Spells & Ranged Attacks... May as well reflect ballista fire while we are at it! Remove melee reflect, or spells. FFS the entire EP population is a DK Vamp with bows in one hand and a Impulse spamming Destro staff in the other.

    Reflecting spells and ranged, some melee, and for 6-8 seconds, is a little much.

    I am surprised the entire population isn't running a DK+Vamp+Bow+Destro...

    Impulse +devouring swarm +reflective scales = rinse and repeat

    Snipe +Reflective Scales +Poison Arrow, poison arrow, poison arrow...

    Oh, and reflecting Ultimates? Do tell...

    None of our DKs are Vamps lol. Phoenix Rising just wipes the floor with yall and you make up these "builds" we are running. Love it.

    To be fair here it is pretty common to see a vast majority of EP flapping their wings running in a zerg lol but hey it does look pretty funny to see :D
    Every faction does it and I don't fault them for doing so. It's up to ZOS to balance the classes not the players. The DKs can defend their position all they want, at the end of the day nothing is immune to the nerf bat and their time will come.

    nerfbat1.jpg

    Lol. What do you mean "their time will come"? They have been directly nerfed more than any class since launch.

    It's been "their time" since April
    They have not been hit nearly as hard as sorcerers. What nerfing are you referring to specifically? And please keep in mind that fixing bugs and broken mechanics is not a nerf.

    You're losing a lot of validity when your responses show that high level of ignorance, do bear that in mind.

    Nerfs to DKs since launch:
    1) Inhale target cap changed from 6 to 3
    2) Standard of Might dmg increase and damage mitigation dropped from 35% to 20%
    3) Battle Roar return of resources nerfed from 100% to 70% of ultimate cost
    4) Lava Whip extra spell damage on fire attacks nerfed to be extra spell damage on Ardent Flame (skill tree) abilities only
    5) Talons DoT damage nerfed by 50% and range reduced from 8m to 6m
    6) Corrosive Armor ultimate duration reduced from 15" to 9"

    That's off the top of my head and does not include "fixes" such as Fragmented Shield multiplicative damage or Extended Chains angle introduction to stop pulling people off the walls.
    And yet they still remain as the strongest class in PvP. I guess sorcerers don't have anything to complain about after all.
    :trollin:
  • Maulkin
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    And I don't give five *** if you can't understand that a bow and a staff have ranged abilities that...*NEWS FLASH* DKs actually get bonus damage with fire! How long have you been a DK?? Are you honestly that clueless to the strengths of you class??

    Two problems with that.

    One, a DK with destro has no gap closer, thus he cannot use any of his cool melee abilities. This destro build is pretty much only encountered in AoE squads and ofc if you catch yourself in the range of one of those you be pretty dead anyway.

    Two, archers are stamina builds and the cost of RS is pretty high to keep up on demand like LA wearers. Usually Stamina DKs will cast it once, or twice as part of a roll dodging retreat or quick hiding behind the walls. When did you last see a DK archers standing in front of 20 people casting scales on timer and staying alive?

    The most efficient build for DK is S&B and LA which represents probably 80% of DKs out there. It's that build that everyone complains about. If you spec for range you don't fall into the category of DK that this thread complains about. You can't have best of both basically, both range and tankability.
    No gap closers? Wow.
    1. Shield Charge
    2. Critical Charge
    3. Fiery F****ing Grip
    4. Dragon Leap
    There's 4 off the top of my head. You...have...two...weapon slots. :o Please don't pretend like the class is that complicated. Please explain why using magicka for RS has anything to do with using stamina for bows? I use my magicka abilities just fine while using a bow and if my attacks don't get reflected then my target dies pretty quickly, well within 8 seconds and I'm sure that you can get at least 2 casts of RS off without losing all your magicka.

    Are you trolling or are you for real? Because if you've got a bow you wear medium armor to reduce the cost and to get weapon damage or your arrows will tickle. Same applies to 2H builds. Have you seen many archers with light armour lately?

    Since these builds rely on stacking stamina and weapon damage, they don't have the magicka reduction, regenaration and overall pool to keep Scales up for long.

    Firey F****** Grip, is a broken ability since they made the changes to it. You need to follow news. It doesn't work if there's any uneveness in the path to the target. Hence no-one uses it. Dragon Leap is an ultimate. Critical Charge again means you're stamina build so no sustain for scales (which is the topic of discussion remember?)

    If you play S&B your off bar is 99% of the time full off buffs and shields to keep you alive in melee combat, not destro offensive abilities. The reality is there are no efficient builds (or as efficient) for a DK that combine both range and AoE and tankability in one. Something has to give.

    If you think there is by all means go roll one and the bring him to PvP to get his face smashed :)
    EU | PC | AD
  • Maulkin
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    Gorthax wrote: »
    Goldie wrote: »
    Spells & Ranged Attacks... May as well reflect ballista fire while we are at it! Remove melee reflect, or spells. FFS the entire EP population is a DK Vamp with bows in one hand and a Impulse spamming Destro staff in the other.

    Reflecting spells and ranged, some melee, and for 6-8 seconds, is a little much.

    I am surprised the entire population isn't running a DK+Vamp+Bow+Destro...

    Impulse +devouring swarm +reflective scales = rinse and repeat

    Snipe +Reflective Scales +Poison Arrow, poison arrow, poison arrow...

    Oh, and reflecting Ultimates? Do tell...

    None of our DKs are Vamps lol. Phoenix Rising just wipes the floor with yall and you make up these "builds" we are running. Love it.

    To be fair here it is pretty common to see a vast majority of EP flapping their wings running in a zerg lol but hey it does look pretty funny to see :D
    Every faction does it and I don't fault them for doing so. It's up to ZOS to balance the classes not the players. The DKs can defend their position all they want, at the end of the day nothing is immune to the nerf bat and their time will come.

    nerfbat1.jpg

    Lol. What do you mean "their time will come"? They have been directly nerfed more than any class since launch.

    It's been "their time" since April
    They have not been hit nearly as hard as sorcerers. What nerfing are you referring to specifically? And please keep in mind that fixing bugs and broken mechanics is not a nerf.

    You're losing a lot of validity when your responses show that high level of ignorance, do bear that in mind.

    Nerfs to DKs since launch:
    1) Inhale target cap changed from 6 to 3
    2) Standard of Might dmg increase and damage mitigation dropped from 35% to 20%
    3) Battle Roar return of resources nerfed from 100% to 70% of ultimate cost
    4) Lava Whip extra spell damage on fire attacks nerfed to be extra spell damage on Ardent Flame (skill tree) abilities only
    5) Talons DoT damage nerfed by 50% and range reduced from 8m to 6m
    6) Corrosive Armor ultimate duration reduced from 15" to 9"

    That's off the top of my head and does not include "fixes" such as Fragmented Shield multiplicative damage or Extended Chains angle introduction to stop pulling people off the walls.
    And yet they still remain as the strongest class in PvP. I guess sorcerers don't have anything to complain about after all.

    I have already said that sorcerers have plenty to complain about but that's mostly regarding their own damage output.

    They have nothing to complain about regarding DKs. That's mostly the usual cry-babying that goes on in the forums
    EU | PC | AD
  • Gorthax
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    ***_Hero wrote: »
    what people should be complaining about is Unstoppable. Armor abilities should require a certain amount of the particular armor type be to able to be used. Thus those DKs that can't be stopped by an uppercut, nocked down by crystal shards when they don't have RS up, would not have as much DPS because they would have to put on x amount of heavy armor.

    I have been barking up that tree too!!! People love to flame the crap out of you for mentioning that though.......its so sad
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
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    And I don't give five *** if you can't understand that a bow and a staff have ranged abilities that...*NEWS FLASH* DKs actually get bonus damage with fire! How long have you been a DK?? Are you honestly that clueless to the strengths of you class??

    Two problems with that.

    One, a DK with destro has no gap closer, thus he cannot use any of his cool melee abilities. This destro build is pretty much only encountered in AoE squads and ofc if you catch yourself in the range of one of those you be pretty dead anyway.

    Two, archers are stamina builds and the cost of RS is pretty high to keep up on demand like LA wearers. Usually Stamina DKs will cast it once, or twice as part of a roll dodging retreat or quick hiding behind the walls. When did you last see a DK archers standing in front of 20 people casting scales on timer and staying alive?

    The most efficient build for DK is S&B and LA which represents probably 80% of DKs out there. It's that build that everyone complains about. If you spec for range you don't fall into the category of DK that this thread complains about. You can't have best of both basically, both range and tankability.
    No gap closers? Wow.
    1. Shield Charge
    2. Critical Charge
    3. Fiery F****ing Grip
    4. Dragon Leap
    There's 4 off the top of my head. You...have...two...weapon slots. :o Please don't pretend like the class is that complicated. Please explain why using magicka for RS has anything to do with using stamina for bows? I use my magicka abilities just fine while using a bow and if my attacks don't get reflected then my target dies pretty quickly, well within 8 seconds and I'm sure that you can get at least 2 casts of RS off without losing all your magicka.

    Are you trolling or are you for real? Because if you've got a bow you wear medium armor to reduce the cost and to get weapon damage or your arrows will tickle. Same applies to 2H builds. Have you seen many archers with light armour lately?

    Since these builds rely on stacking stamina and weapon damage, they don't have the magicka reduction, regenaration and overall pool to keep Scales up for long.

    Firey F****** Grip, is a broken ability since they made the changes to it. You need to follow news. It doesn't work if there's any uneveness in the path to the target. Hence no-one uses it. Dragon Leap is an ultimate. Critical Charge again means you're stamina build so no sustain for scales (which is the topic of discussion remember?)

    If you play S&B your off bar is 99% of the time full off buffs and shields to keep you alive in melee combat, not destro offensive abilities. The reality is there are no efficient builds (or as efficient) for a DK that combine both range and AoE and tankability in one. Something has to give.

    If you think there is by all means go roll one and the bring him to PvP to get his face smashed :)
    You made a blanket statement. Which I refuted. Sorry if it's not "optimal" but don't pretend like it doesn't exist. There are options. I am sick of DKs crying every time someone points out that even a mediocre player can play them effectively. Just once I would love to see a DK come out and say yeah, it's a faceroll and that's why I like it. And why would they need to keep it up long anyway if their target is dead? I have no desire to return to my DK because I felt it was a boring class to play. I get that you have fun with it, but be real here, you know why it's fun and it's not because it's challenging.

    Please stop pretending like the DK has some sort of depth to it.
    :trollin:
  • Lava_Croft
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    Please stop pretending like the DK has some sort of depth to it.
    You made an error here though. DK's dont lack depth, they are just a lot more potent in PvP than any of the other classes, which creates the illusion of a lack of depth. Since the effort required to be an effective DK is a lot less than the effort required to be effective with any of the other classes, it looks like DK is just 'bang head on keyboard'.

    Now it's just the DK 'apologists' that should man up and admit that there are balance issues when comparing DK's to the other classes. Nerf DK's? Buff the other classes? I honestly don't know.

    Edited by Lava_Croft on December 3, 2014 10:31PM
  • eventide03b14a_ESO
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    Lava_Croft wrote: »
    Please stop pretending like the DK has some sort of depth to it.
    You made an error here though. DK's dont lack depth, they are just a lot more potent in PvP than any of the other classes, which creates the illusion of a lack of depth.
    I stand corrected.
    :trollin:
  • Sharee
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    Are you trolling or are you for real? Because if you've got a bow you wear medium armor to reduce the cost and to get weapon damage or your arrows will tickle. Same applies to 2H builds. Have you seen many archers with light armour lately?

    Since these builds rely on stacking stamina and weapon damage, they don't have the magicka reduction, regenaration and overall pool to keep Scales up for long.

    But he said he only needs to cast it twice if his target is dead in 8 seconds anyway. He does not need to be magicka focused to cast reflect twice.

    Just like my NB is pure stamina build yet i can (and do) cast cloak or ambush several times in a row when there is need for it. Sure, it will empty my magicka bar, but i am a stam build, i do not need magicka to function/kill. Same with a stamina DK - he does not need magicka to kill, just to keep reflect up for a little while, until his target is dead.

    I don't buy for a second any claim that magicka abilities are useless for stamina builds, especialy if those abilities give utility, as opposed to raw damage output.
  • Maulkin
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Are you trolling or are you for real? Because if you've got a bow you wear medium armor to reduce the cost and to get weapon damage or your arrows will tickle. Same applies to 2H builds. Have you seen many archers with light armour lately?

    Since these builds rely on stacking stamina and weapon damage, they don't have the magicka reduction, regenaration and overall pool to keep Scales up for long.

    But he said he only needs to cast it twice if his target is dead in 8 seconds anyway. He does not need to be magicka focused to cast reflect twice.

    Just like my NB is pure stamina build yet i can (and do) cast cloak or ambush several times in a row when there is need for it. Sure, it will empty my magicka bar, but i am a stam build, i do not need magicka to function/kill. Same with a stamina DK - he does not need magicka to kill, just to keep reflect up for a little while, until his target is dead.

    I don't buy for a second any claim that magicka abilities are useless for stamina builds, especialy if those abilities give utility, as opposed to raw damage output.

    You don't have to buy cause I'm not selling. I never said they are useless. I said he cannot have long uptime on scales, which is a fact. Most of the complains about scales are about the high uptime and the ability to stand in the middle of it all. Stam builds can't do that. Most nerf requests ask for higher cost or higher cost on recast which is what the Stamina build has in comparison to magicka.

    As for the 8 second claim I didn't even grace it with a response cause it's ludicrous. Unless there's a stealth opener involved, I can survive pretty well against one or two archers for much much longer on my Sorc that has no quick heals or arrow reflects. If that statement had any credibility, duels would be filled with archers owning anything that isn't DK.
    You made a blanket statement. Which I refuted. Sorry if it's not "optimal" but don't pretend like it doesn't exist. There are options.I am sick of DKs crying every time someone points out that even a mediocre player can play them effectively. Just once I would love to see a DK come out and say yeah, it's a faceroll and that's why I like it. And why would they need to keep it up long anyway if their target is dead? I have no desire to return to my DK because I felt it was a boring class to play. I get that you have fun with it, but be real here, you know why it's fun and it's not because it's challenging.

    Please stop pretending like the DK has some sort of depth to it.

    I'm sorry, but I'm telling it as I see it not as you'd like to hear it. The people who describe DKs as faceroll easy are usually people who don't play DKs. If you die in seconds to a DK the problem is you not the DK, period. There's plenty of duellists of every class that can win or hold out for a draw against the best DKs out there.

    I actually find the Sorc more interesting than the DK, primarily because I can achieve far higher kill streaks and dictate big battles better with my Negates. I created both my chars at start and I levelled both fairly evenly in PvP so they have similar AvA rank (Sorc's Centurion and DK's Major). I'm one of the first vocal people shouting that sorc needs some love, but all these "be real, DK's not challenging, no depth, faceroll easy, stop pretending" posts, sorry they don't get any sympathy from me.

    They are usually the straw-clutching of bad players.
    EU | PC | AD
  • Gorthax
    Gorthax
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    Sharee wrote: »
    Are you trolling or are you for real? Because if you've got a bow you wear medium armor to reduce the cost and to get weapon damage or your arrows will tickle. Same applies to 2H builds. Have you seen many archers with light armour lately?

    Since these builds rely on stacking stamina and weapon damage, they don't have the magicka reduction, regenaration and overall pool to keep Scales up for long.

    But he said he only needs to cast it twice if his target is dead in 8 seconds anyway. He does not need to be magicka focused to cast reflect twice.

    Just like my NB is pure stamina build yet i can (and do) cast cloak or ambush several times in a row when there is need for it. Sure, it will empty my magicka bar, but i am a stam build, i do not need magicka to function/kill. Same with a stamina DK - he does not need magicka to kill, just to keep reflect up for a little while, until his target is dead.

    I don't buy for a second any claim that magicka abilities are useless for stamina builds, especialy if those abilities give utility, as opposed to raw damage output.

    You don't have to buy cause I'm not selling. I never said they are useless. I said he cannot have long uptime on scales, which is a fact. Most of the complains about scales are about the high uptime and the ability to stand in the middle of it all. Stam builds can't do that. Most nerf requests ask for higher cost or higher cost on recast which is what the Stamina build has in comparison to magicka.

    As for the 8 second claim I didn't even grace it with a response cause it's ludicrous. Unless there's a stealth opener involved, I can survive pretty well against one or two archers for much much longer on my Sorc that has no quick heals or arrow reflects. If that statement had any credibility, duels would be filled with archers owning anything that isn't DK.
    You made a blanket statement. Which I refuted. Sorry if it's not "optimal" but don't pretend like it doesn't exist. There are options.I am sick of DKs crying every time someone points out that even a mediocre player can play them effectively. Just once I would love to see a DK come out and say yeah, it's a faceroll and that's why I like it. And why would they need to keep it up long anyway if their target is dead? I have no desire to return to my DK because I felt it was a boring class to play. I get that you have fun with it, but be real here, you know why it's fun and it's not because it's challenging.

    Please stop pretending like the DK has some sort of depth to it.

    I'm sorry, but I'm telling it as I see it not as you'd like to hear it. The people who describe DKs as faceroll easy are usually people who don't play DKs. If you die in seconds to a DK the problem is you not the DK, period. There's plenty of duellists of every class that can win or hold out for a draw against the best DKs out there.

    I actually find the Sorc more interesting than the DK, primarily because I can achieve far higher kill streaks and dictate big battles better with my Negates. I created both my chars at start and I levelled both fairly evenly in PvP so they have similar AvA rank (Sorc's Centurion and DK's Major). I'm one of the first vocal people shouting that sorc needs some love, but all these "be real, DK's not challenging, no depth, faceroll easy, stop pretending" posts, sorry they don't get any sympathy from me.

    They are usually the straw-clutching of bad players.

    my first character was a DK. Beta phase 1 DK fire mage la. 5 day early access was DK fire mage LA. By far the easiest class to play. They ARE faceroll easy. I switched to sorc because it is my secondary style of play but they SUCK lol I still play it in hopes one day they will buff the hell out of us.

    To deny that DK is that easy to play is just absurd. I stopped playing my DK because I got sick of people saying I am just doing FoTW. Which in fact I was doing an entirely different build than what people are using and it was literally stand there easy. Still is. Do I think DK need some more adjustments? Oh yea. When one DK can jump up on a keep where there are EASILY 30 people healing, sieging, and attacking the people knocking on the keeps wall, and lands there and does not die with everyone attacking him....yea something is wrong lol

    Not to mention the fact that reflect scales (what this thread IS about) reflects things that just make no sense. Meteor, another perfect example. you are telling me that they are so ungodly powerful that they can reflect a giant mass HURLING through space? or how about some melee moves being reflected? There has to be a trade off for that power. Period. It is called balance. Where it is right now, well thats not balance.

    Call it what you want all day long, bad players crying, people who cant play, etc etc blah blah. Yet at the end of the day, they need to be balanced more. This has gone on long enough. When ZoS said they were doing balances in small increments, I didnt think they would be this pathetic at doing so.
  • Jaerlach
    Jaerlach
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    This discussion really just reveals the weakness of the sorcerer class.

    Sorc player, consider this: you have much better dps on your ranged build than my sb dragonknight. Dks fight each other constantly. How do you think it feels trying to kill each other? Or the templars and siphonblades?

    Pvp for non sorcerer classes is basically a battle of healing vs heal debuffing. Everyone in our battles has one or both: dark flare, reverberating bash, lethal arrow. Green dragon blood, sap essence, Templar heals. These determine our battles.

    Ranged sorcs lack both. That's why gdb feels awful for you. Velocious curse hits me harder than any skill I use. Dps isn't your issue. The lack of access to heals and healcuts is.

    Impenetrable ruins your healing skill, and ranged Magicka lacks access to a heal debuffing skill. I think if you had one like everyone else you would not feel this problem exists. Forcing purges is heavily taxing Magicka even for la using dks as it competes with wings and dragon blood, and as mentioned those skills cost a lot. Even efficient purge is spendy.


    Sorcs need a heal cut option. Several skills could have it added and they would improve sorcerer play a lot imo.
    Jaerlach Kesepton (DK)
    The 7th Vanguard
    DC - NA first SO speed run & first Hardmode Speedrun
    NA Record Vet DSA: 11519
  • Gorthax
    Gorthax
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    No, sorcs need a huge buff period. Their damage is laughable. yea VC can hurt. 500 damage or avoid it by using stamina. Most people just take the damage. However, in that time it took for it to explode we are either dead or running away. Not to mention if another sorc cast it on the same target it negates the first one. That cycle can continue and it will never explode.

    AoE? Not even a chance, cost to much for far to little damage output. Mages fury? Meh. Crystal frags? meh. mines? HA! where is the range you are talking about?

    @Jaerlach‌

    seriously, i want to know. Because I just dont see it. I have spammed and spammed stuff and tried different gear, and the damage output is literally not there. Even going against non DK the dps is just not there. Inbox me your thoughts. I dont want to derail this thread more than it has
    Edited by Gorthax on December 4, 2014 1:46AM
  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    I don't know what I was thinking.
    Edited by Lava_Croft on December 4, 2014 1:53AM
  • Maulkin
    Maulkin
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    ✭✭✭
    Gorthax wrote: »
    No, sorcs need a huge buff period. Their damage is laughable. yea VC can hurt. 500 damage or avoid it by using stamina.

    First you were saying that people can block Liquid Lighthing. Now you're saying that you can avoid Curse damage by using stamina. It's an unblockable spell that can only be cleared with Purge. You cannot block it, you cannot CC break it.

    So I'll ask you for a 2nd time in this thread. Do you even PvP?
    EU | PC | AD
  • Xsorus
    Xsorus
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    Lol did someone actually call fiery grip a gap closer? I tell you what.... You go play a dk, and only use fiery grip as your gap closer and you come back and tell us how that went. Same with dragon leap, ignoring that it cost ultimate to use... By the time you got to the target from leaping they'd already be two keeps away. The only time it is useful is when you are trying to leap into a keep or if you are right next to the target for quick burst.

    With that said.... I've killed magicka dks all day long in 1v1 fights with a stamina dk. I've killed dks on my nightblade all day long as well. So if you are having trouble with them. Start looking at your setup... If they're built tanky it will tank a while and it should.. Since they can't run from the fight like a certain class can whenever they want.
  • SRIBES
    SRIBES
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    Zos said on guild summit that reflecft is getting nerfed. Expect to see it in patch notes in 1.6. They said they might make it so it just absorbs spells, doesn't reflect weapon skills, or give it the bolt escape treatment. There are a couple ways they can do it they said. BUT they had also said they don't want to mess with DK to much as they like the idea of buffing other classes unless a skill gets out of hand, which in this case I would assume most people who are projectile based would agree that it is out of hand. Now I don't agree with how bolt escape was nerfed so I don't think reflect should have the same treatment. I think DK should not be able to be tanky and deal Super high DPS at the same time unless they're losing resources, which I think would then make the ability situational. I think making it only absorb spells would be the right way to go with maybe a magika regen nerf while it's up. I think a lot of you here are crying for this ability to be nerfed into the ground so it sucks rather then just nerfed. I think if Reflect was made so it only absorbs spells and adds a magika debuff it would put DK in a good spot. I really don't think anything else should be nerfed from the DK, if you do think that you really just need to l2p at that point. Every class has an "OP" ability.

    Builds and skills will always be nerfed. Just remember if you start using the next "OP" ability the people on this thread fighting for scales won't hesitate to start a nerf _____ thread which could lead to a constant "nerf this, nerf that" battle of the forum warriors. I actully some what enjoy the game so I don't want everything to get nerfed to the point where mudcrabs are Unkillable.
  • Columba
    Columba
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    eliisra wrote: »
    Gorthax wrote: »
    To be fair here it is pretty common to see a vast majority of EP flapping their wings running in a zerg lol but hey it does look pretty funny to see :D

    To be fair here it's pretty common to die instantly to multiple Lethal Arrows if you aren't flapping wings. So it's understandable that people choose to play their DK in PvP at the moment. It's the only class with a counter against the most over-tuned fotm ability in the game.

    It's bows versus DK's versus DK's with bows. All other play-styles and classes life expectancy got shortened with roughly 50-80% after the Elder Snipe Online patch. This while DK's can keep charging into zergs as if nothing happened or changed.

    I'm not saying nerf Scales. But objectively speaking, no one can call this situation, or current PvP meta, balanced.


    Somehow I rarely die to lethal arrows, and I don't play a dk, lol. Dodge, Block, Move are your friends.
  • SRIBES
    SRIBES
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    Gorthax wrote: »
    Sharee wrote: »
    Are you trolling or are you for real? Because if you've got a bow you wear medium armor to reduce the cost and to get weapon damage or your arrows will tickle. Same applies to 2H builds. Have you seen many archers with light armour lately?

    Since these builds rely on stacking stamina and weapon damage, they don't have the magicka reduction, regenaration and overall pool to keep Scales up for long.

    But he said he only needs to cast it twice if his target is dead in 8 seconds anyway. He does not need to be magicka focused to cast reflect twice.

    Just like my NB is pure stamina build yet i can (and do) cast cloak or ambush several times in a row when there is need for it. Sure, it will empty my magicka bar, but i am a stam build, i do not need magicka to function/kill. Same with a stamina DK - he does not need magicka to kill, just to keep reflect up for a little while, until his target is dead.

    I don't buy for a second any claim that magicka abilities are useless for stamina builds, especialy if those abilities give utility, as opposed to raw damage output.

    You don't have to buy cause I'm not selling. I never said they are useless. I said he cannot have long uptime on scales, which is a fact. Most of the complains about scales are about the high uptime and the ability to stand in the middle of it all. Stam builds can't do that. Most nerf requests ask for higher cost or higher cost on recast which is what the Stamina build has in comparison to magicka.

    As for the 8 second claim I didn't even grace it with a response cause it's ludicrous. Unless there's a stealth opener involved, I can survive pretty well against one or two archers for much much longer on my Sorc that has no quick heals or arrow reflects. If that statement had any credibility, duels would be filled with archers owning anything that isn't DK.
    You made a blanket statement. Which I refuted. Sorry if it's not "optimal" but don't pretend like it doesn't exist. There are options.I am sick of DKs crying every time someone points out that even a mediocre player can play them effectively. Just once I would love to see a DK come out and say yeah, it's a faceroll and that's why I like it. And why would they need to keep it up long anyway if their target is dead? I have no desire to return to my DK because I felt it was a boring class to play. I get that you have fun with it, but be real here, you know why it's fun and it's not because it's challenging.

    Please stop pretending like the DK has some sort of depth to it.

    I'm sorry, but I'm telling it as I see it not as you'd like to hear it. The people who describe DKs as faceroll easy are usually people who don't play DKs. If you die in seconds to a DK the problem is you not the DK, period. There's plenty of duellists of every class that can win or hold out for a draw against the best DKs out there.

    I actually find the Sorc more interesting than the DK, primarily because I can achieve far higher kill streaks and dictate big battles better with my Negates. I created both my chars at start and I levelled both fairly evenly in PvP so they have similar AvA rank (Sorc's Centurion and DK's Major). I'm one of the first vocal people shouting that sorc needs some love, but all these "be real, DK's not challenging, no depth, faceroll easy, stop pretending" posts, sorry they don't get any sympathy from me.

    They are usually the straw-clutching of bad players.

    my first character was a DK. Beta phase 1 DK fire mage la. 5 day early access was DK fire mage LA. By far the easiest class to play. They ARE faceroll easy. I switched to sorc because it is my secondary style of play but they SUCK lol I still play it in hopes one day they will buff the hell out of us.

    To deny that DK is that easy to play is just absurd. I stopped playing my DK because I got sick of people saying I am just doing FoTW. Which in fact I was doing an entirely different build than what people are using and it was literally stand there easy. Still is. Do I think DK need some more adjustments? Oh yea. When one DK can jump up on a keep where there are EASILY 30 people healing, sieging, and attacking the people knocking on the keeps wall, and lands there and does not die with everyone attacking him....yea something is wrong lol

    Not to mention the fact that reflect scales (what this thread IS about) reflects things that just make no sense. Meteor, another perfect example. you are telling me that they are so ungodly powerful that they can reflect a giant mass HURLING through space? or how about some melee moves being reflected? There has to be a trade off for that power. Period. It is called balance. Where it is right now, well thats not balance.

    Call it what you want all day long, bad players crying, people who cant play, etc etc blah blah. Yet at the end of the day, they need to be balanced more. This has gone on long enough. When ZoS said they were doing balances in small increments, I didnt think they would be this pathetic at doing so.

    Are you *** joking? One good player can ruin a DKs day in a 1vX and there is not a single class I have not seen do a 1v10+.

    I admit scales needs a nerf but not as much as noobs like you are saying. If a DK is built to tank he should be able to tank, it should take a bit to get him down. It's the player that makes it OP. I have seen plenty of DKs trying to go man mode and rush into a group then die immediately who use the same build as me. All it takes to take a DK down is spreading out, healing debuffs, bursty, and skill. I've been in PvP before where I rushed into a small group of ONLY sorcs and they killed me right away because they streaked out and kited me so I couldn't AoE and just kept curse/resto heavy/mages fury on me and soul assaulted me. The biggest factor to taking a DK down is skill. Maybe zos should write an in game book for some of you guys -.-

    Tbh I hope they buff the hell out of you because you have yet to make a statement that I can't deny and argue that reflect is OP. List all the reasons you want why reflect is OP and I can give you a list back telling you how to counter that. One of the biggest counters is skill, and if zos needs to do any nerfing/buffing they sure as hell better buff player skill.
  • Lava_Croft
    Lava_Croft
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    ✭✭✭✭
    When it comes to DK's crying about other classes, it usually only involves a single skill, like BE or Fear.

    When it comes to DK's crying about what they lack, it usually only involves a single skill, like a gap closer.

    When it comes to other classes crying about DK's, it involves a host of different skills.

    Just something I noticed. It's probably not at all related to the fact that DK's are still overpowered in PvP.
    Edited by Lava_Croft on December 4, 2014 5:06AM
  • Panda244
    Panda244
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    If they nerf reflect, they need to nerf Snipe. That's not a question or a suggestion it's a fact. DKs are suppose to be the 'tanks' of ESO and RS is absolutely fine the way it is. I'll support a nerf similar to BE but if they make it so you can't spam reflect when theres eight people with bows spamming lethal arrow at you then I'm sadly going to retire my DK. I'd be happy if they just made reflect ABSORB the projectile to, instead of reflecting it back... And they need to change it so overload light attacks and meteor can still get through, reflecting ultimates is just plain idiotic.
    Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
    Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
    N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)

    #FreeZazeer
    #FreeGooey
    #FreeAsgari
    #FreeAoE
    #FreeSubtomik
    #FreeMBF

    Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.
  • Columba
    Columba
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    I'd just like to know how long reflect can be held up. I can block all their reflects, but I'd like to know when to pour on the dps. Btw, impale isn't reflected. While they are reflecting I can impale them to about half then stealth and repeat.
  • JackDaniell
    JackDaniell
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    Pshh who needs reflects, DK's know to fear the 2h Stam builds. Nurf Stamina.
    Ebonheart Templar

    www.youtube.com/user/kristofersommermusic
  • Panda244
    Panda244
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    Columba wrote: »
    I'd just like to know how long reflect can be held up. I can block all their reflects, but I'd like to know when to pour on the dps. Btw, impale isn't reflected. While they are reflecting I can impale them to about half then stealth and repeat.

    It depends on their magic regen, on my DK I can have reflect up for literally hours. Magic regen is so high it only costs about 10 next time I cast it.
    Aldmeri Dominion For Life!
    Crassus Licinius II - DK - V14 - Former Emperor of Blackwater Blade NA (The Dragonknight that refuses to go Vampire.)
    N'tel Arlena - NB - V14 - Retired Sap Tank of Haderus NA, Harasser of Many (Also, not a vampire. Goes by nickname Nutella.)

    #FreeZazeer
    #FreeGooey
    #FreeAsgari
    #FreeAoE
    #FreeSubtomik
    #FreeMBF

    Officially Resigned From Cyrodiil As Of 4/15/15 10:24 PM EST.
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