Jitterbug wrote: »

I totally understand crit-based stamina players (I am one, albeit lowbie) and their fear that this will destroy their class/playstyle - I do.
But don't you guys think the "one-shot" is over the top? I ask because I'm unsure how to feel about it - it just looks a little silly that you can drop a guy without him ever seeing you... Can't you agree that it needs balance or am I way off?

To resume :
- It was already a One-Shot before 1.5 as the combo lethal arrow/heavy attack/poison arrow always has dealt a high amount of damage.
- In 1.5, snipe had a 5% reduced damage which was already a nerf to the burst combo.
- This works only against :

• People wearing tissue
• People not blocking
• People not having a shield up
• People taken from back

After some testing, with a NB landing 2 snipes in a row from stealth (instead of the previous combo), the first hits for around 1.6k (2k before), you then have 0.8-1sec to react and break free/block before the next attack.
The second attack does not benefit from stealth bonus and hits for 600-900 if you're still not blocking.

That was not OP before 1.5, it was just a matter "you play in robe, don't max health and don't block , too bad for you".

The matter here is that most play in a robe because it's OP and it's the way ZOS seems to want people to play.
And because they're all robe players, they cry when they get hit by physical attacks that hurt them a lot.

Since the launch of the game, Nightblades, over all classes, have been asking for improvements of stamina builds as they want to play rogue style. All other classes have mostly been playing magicka builds and are fine with it.

And the best answer from Zenimax is to nerf stealth damage.
If you look at it, stealth damage never applied to "spells" neither did it to staves.

So, the nerf to stealth damage is basically a nerf to all those who don't play robe/staff, therefore mainly the NB.

90% of people in Cyrodiil are robe/staves wearers. Do the maths.

This is the issue, as I see it. You have players, who front load their toons into big, burst damage. These players have next to no survivability. They're likely to explode if you so much as fart in their general direction. That's your balance, incredible burst damage for no defense except to beat feet or even real sustained dps. Where's the balance for block casting? That's a much more prevalent problem with no immediate drawback. If you have less than 2.3k hp in Cyrodiil, you deserve to get one shotted IMO. My main is a Vamp NB... I had less than 2.4k hp for a while, but I never got hit with a 1 hitter. You want to know why? Because I, as an assassin type, think of all the choke points and ambush spots and adjust accordingly. The problem isn't these massive sneak attacks. It's players' unwillingness to adapt and overcome that leads to "Wah!! Blankety blank killed me with blank!!! So OP, please nerf"

You're turning in quests? Pop a shield first. Riding through a choke point? Pop a shield, ready a counter, get off your damn horse and sneak.... But, for the love of God stop sprinting.

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

There is so much stuff we can finally do with ww now and people complain about a little ww timer reductions. If it was ww timer was reduced before the 1.5 patch then I call foul play but since they fixed a lot problems since then a little time reduction is not that bad if I can hit enemies for 1.5 k damage in about 6 secs with just light attacks.

W8 a minute. 1.5k dps in 6 seconds. is that 250 per second or 1.5k each second? cuz.. I dnt think that is possible with any class or skill line. And if it is. its prolly bybat swarming impulse spamming. And you claim this is just with light attacks? lmao. please post the vid of you doing 1.5k dps in ww form. If its 250 per second, then that is not good in anyway. A person with a 2hander just using light attacks with a good weapon and a decent enchantment on it can do 200 with light attacks. From what skilled end game players have told me, 600-1000k dps is preferred for dps builds. 600-800 on single target and in the 1000ks for mobs.

***_Hero wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

There is so much stuff we can finally do with ww now and people complain about a little ww timer reductions. If it was ww timer was reduced before the 1.5 patch then I call foul play but since they fixed a lot problems since then a little time reduction is not that bad if I can hit enemies for 1.5 k damage in about 6 secs with just light attacks.

W8 a minute. 1.5k dps in 6 seconds. is that 250 per second or 1.5k each second? cuz.. I dnt think that is possible with any class or skill line. And if it is. its prolly bybat swarming impulse spamming. And you claim this is just with light attacks? lmao. please post the vid of you doing 1.5k dps in ww form. If its 250 per second, then that is not good in anyway. A person with a 2hander just using light attacks with a good weapon and a decent enchantment on it can do 200 with light attacks. From what skilled end game players have told me, 600-1000k dps is preferred for dps builds. 600-800 on single target and in the 1000ks for mobs.

Try it out on the PTS. My character is 2H build so I have a lot of attack power this added with ww increase weapon power passive in ww form and a skill morph of hircine bounty which can boost attack. It does not take long to kill enemy mobs in pve. Frankly pvp players will have more movavbility and armor compare to computer control mobs so you will probably not do as much damage in that time in pvp but in pve it is fun. Try it out.

I counted my current werewolf time with a stopwatch (transformation time omitted), and I got about 32 seconds. ZOS, if you could give us somewhere in the ballpark of 1 minute with devour restoring the same percentage of the time that it does now, many of us werewolves would appreciate it. 1 minute will not push the werewolf ultimate over the line in terms of balance, I guarantee you, it will simply give it some use in PvP.

In addition to this change, or instead of it if you are really that concerned, you could make good on the one promise that we werewolves were given by @Castle that you have not followed through on. It's probably the least important change that @Castle promised us, but it may just fix this little issue we are having. To Quote Castle:

Castle wrote: »

• "The Pack Leader Morph will add to the "Werewolf" counter for the Werewolf and any Werewolf allies nearby instead of adding Ultimate."

I noticed that the tool tip in the pack leader morph currently says something in the direction of what Castle promised:

Allies nearby add 4 to their Werewolf Timer whenever Ultimate is rewarded.

...but the Pack Leader himself recieves no benefits for selecting his morph. Having some kind of self buff is essential for pack leader to be viable, especially since the benefit it provides is now exclusive to werewolves. I would therefore suggest, ZOS, that you modify the Pack Leader morph so that it also provides its user with a longer werewolf duration. This will not only allow pack leaders to start off with a longer duration, but it will also allow them to store up more werewolf time by devouring corpses after a battle.

I would say that it's even a flavorful buff. In comparison to the berserker who, as a berserker, should need to keep his bloodrush going to remain transformed, shouldn't the pack leader be more stable and be more able to maintain his form between battles? Giving the pack leaders a 50% or so buff to their werewolf timer would certainly represent this difference between the two.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom‌, sorry to pick on you guys so much, but I appreciate how you two have been listening. Is there any way you could tell us whether or not these changes could be a possibility? I have good faith that you two are passing the player feedback onto the devs, and obviously you don't have time to respond directly to every concern that is raised on the PTS forums. That said, I am sure many of us werewolves agree that we want our ultimate to be performing optimally when it drops onto the live server, and any information that you can provide would be very helpful. Thank You.

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

"dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

but yet the devs allow the sorcerers to Keep thier stun and knockdown with crystal shards that do upwards of 1800 damage each hit, and the dragonights to allowed to keep the flame whip hitting for 800 - 1100 per hit.
you die within a few seconds.

OK, I'll bite, how the 'ell are people hitting for 1800 with Crystal Frag? It's posted in the forums so I know it must be true.
At VR14 while exceeding both the Max mana and spell damage soft cap AND using a pot to increase damage even further I am barely able to break 1K.

pic

Must have been from the days when abilities were bugged and they kept getting more and more powerful the longer you played. 2500 magicka, 138 spell dmg, sharpened trait and my crystal frag hits for 750.

F

Erock25 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

"dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

but yet the devs allow the sorcerers to Keep thier stun and knockdown with crystal shards that do upwards of 1800 damage each hit, and the dragonights to allowed to keep the flame whip hitting for 800 - 1100 per hit.
you die within a few seconds.

OK, I'll bite, how the 'ell are people hitting for 1800 with Crystal Frag? It's posted in the forums so I know it must be true.
At VR14 while exceeding both the Max mana and spell damage soft cap AND using a pot to increase damage even further I am barely able to break 1K.

pic

Must have been from the days when abilities were bugged and they kept getting more and more powerful the longer you played. 2500 magicka, 138 spell dmg, sharpened trait and my crystal frag hits for 750.

Tho it cant possiblly hit for 1800 legitemately, I still think that since crystal shard is a ranged high-damage attack it shouldnt stun. Been thinkin that forever. And crystal frag has ways of making it instant cast.

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

F

Erock25 wrote: »

dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

Nightreaver wrote: »

"dwemer_paleologist wrote: »

but yet the devs allow the sorcerers to Keep thier stun and knockdown with crystal shards that do upwards of 1800 damage each hit, and the dragonights to allowed to keep the flame whip hitting for 800 - 1100 per hit.
you die within a few seconds.

OK, I'll bite, how the 'ell are people hitting for 1800 with Crystal Frag? It's posted in the forums so I know it must be true.
At VR14 while exceeding both the Max mana and spell damage soft cap AND using a pot to increase damage even further I am barely able to break 1K.

pic

Must have been from the days when abilities were bugged and they kept getting more and more powerful the longer you played. 2500 magicka, 138 spell dmg, sharpened trait and my crystal frag hits for 750.

Tho it cant possiblly hit for 1800 legitemately, I still think that since crystal shard is a ranged high-damage attack it shouldnt stun. Been thinkin that forever. And crystal frag has ways of making it instant cast.

Sorc would have to get something in return if it didn't stun. Remember it has a cast time 66% of the time, moves slow and is extremely visible graphic (easy to dodge), and cost a lot of magicka 66% of the time.

Samadhi wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

draeganb16_ESO wrote: »

We lost a bit (maybe 5%-10%) of damages from the first and unique blow and and it's the ultra NightBlade nerf ?
Oh, come one people, don't tell me that's because NB needed this only attack to kill anybody in PvP... We still have the stun for the stealth attack though. I've seen very potent NB that didn't need any stealth attack to take down somebody.
If you want to give ideas to improve the NB, fine, this class need it but not through this nerf that impact all classes and was needed

Yeah, they are complaining about a little damage reduction of sneak way to much. They acting like nb are the only class that utilize sneak damage. I know plenty of sorcerers that uses sneak damage.

You know what the difference between night blades and every other classes when it comes to sneak damage. One passive that gives 10% more attack and spell power when we are crouch and 100% stun when we do a successful stealth attacks. That's it. Its the only passive that requires us to use stealth all the other passives relies on damage in general not stealth at all like increase crit and crit damage.

My only problem with the night blade class is that it does not feel like a stealth class which what everbody wants to make it.

The primary difference between Sorcerers using Sneak damage and Nightblades using Sneak damage is that Nightblade has multiple Class skills that apply the Sneak Attack bonus when correctly used, and Sorcerer does not have any.

Both Classes are losing Sneak Attack bonus on certain weapon builds, but Nightblade also loses damage output on their Magicka build. Sorcerer loses no damage output on their Magicka skills.

Ambush has been made weaker in its primary application, but have seen no indication of increasing its base damage to compensate.
It would be great that our Ultimate, Death Stroke, got buffed in 1.5; however, the skill long ago had the Sneak Attack bonus removed from it already.

Would love to see Master Assassin passive requirement change so that rather than giving 10% Spell Damage and Weapon Damage while Sneaking (thus being only good for Sneak attacks), the passive instead gives 10% Spell Damage and Weapon Damage with an Assassination skill slotted.
It wouldn't make any change to my Bosmer's racial bonus being nerfed in the overall adjustments, but at least the Nightblade Class could suffer a little less.

I'm confused here. Are you saying NB is losing sneak attack dmg with multiple class skills because of Shadow Cloak? I thought Shadow Cloak didn't give sneak attack bonus to whatever skill you used while it was active. What are these multiple skills Class skills that NB is getting nerfed from lowered sneak attacks? You mention Ambush so does that mean Ambush gets sneak attack bonus dmg? That is the only charge in the game capable of that so I think you should count yourself lucky. I think they should fix that if it is true and remove the sneak attack dmg entirely.

Basically the point of your post was that NB have multiple class skills that get sneak attack bonus dmg while Sorc does not so poor NB? More like poor Sorc. I'd love a 5m or whatever the range of most melee range skills are for my Sorc so I could sneak attack with it.

Samadhi wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

...
You mention Ambush so does that mean Ambush gets sneak attack bonus dmg? That is the only charge in the game capable of that so I think you should count yourself lucky. I think they should fix that if it is true and remove the sneak attack dmg entirely.
...

Yes it does, that is why it is called Ambush and has such a low base damage.

Please don't judge skills based on their names. My Velocious Curse is hardly velocious at all. I've learned not to trust esohead for base dmg figures but I see 20 base dmg on ambush versus templar's 20 dmg charge and both weapon charges being 14.... not to mention a 36% dmg (total dmg, not weapon dmg, or spell dmg .... that is huge) to the next attack. So in my honest opinion, Ambush is pretty darn badass even without the ability to sneak attack, which it still has even though it will hit for 100 - 200 less dmg now.

I look forward to you rolling a Sorc. I very much would appreciate it if you could compare your NB to a Sorc with similar play style. Like for example if you were a stealthy bow/2h NB, try that with a Sorc and PM me please. Then if you want to try the standard caster stick/1h&s build with your Sorc, be sure to only compare that to stick/1h&s build NB.

so will the motif no longer take 45 years to find? guess ill have to go looking for it.

ZOS I understand that you would like to encourage werewolf players to play in packs, but I do not think punishing lone wolves (no pun intended) is the correct way to go about it. Reducing the timer for werewolves is not going to force werewolves to play together, it's only going to upset werewolf players and reduce their numbers. This vision of large packs of werewolves attacking keeps as units with any regularity is a pipe dream. You cannot expect PUGs to cooperate tactically and it's cruel to werewolf players who wish to play alone to reduce their werewolf time by 33% .

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Just got off the PTS testing out the new werewolf stuff. It's a lot of fun however, werewolf doesn't last nearly long enough without a constant influx of corpses to devour and building 400 ultimate even with the passives is far too much as well. In PVP it won't be worth all the drawbacks from players running fighters guild passives/skills with such a lofty ultimate requirement (400) and nobody is going to use the salvation set( 5 pc. reduce cost of WW transform 33%) in pvp since it does not have impenetrable. Even when you do eventually transform in PVP you won't be able to stay in form long enough for it to be worthwhile.

Additionally, I was interrupted by mobs while trying to transform. I don't know if that was a bug or if that is intentional but it is pretty disheartening to build up 400 ultimate and have it not even work because you got hit by an arrow or kicked or whatever the heck happened.

I'm not planning on being a werewolf on LIVE, none of my LIVE characters are currently a werewolf but I think it adds a lot of flavor to the game. From what I've tested there is going to be an initial influx of players running around in pvp trying out werewolf but very few I think will ultimately (pun intended) stick with it. Mainly because the negative effects which are with you on a constant aren't going to be worth the 30 seconds of "RAWR Ima Werewolf!" fun you might have after such a lengthy build up of Ultimate.

Just my 5 cents. I liked the new skills though, it gave you a good mix of abilities between dps, cc and sustain while you're in form and that's always critical as well. Whatever team put in the work on this did a great job. Let the players enjoy it.

P.S. Great job on the stealth damage changes as well. I'm looking forward to not being nuked to death by someone with a stealth rotation before I am even able to dismount in pvp. I was on my VR8 DK with 3400 health in cyrodiil recently and was killed by a VR14 Nightblade before I could even move. Same thing has happened while on my VR10 Templar with over 3k Health. These folks complaining can talk counters all they want but it's not a realistic expectation that people should be forced to walk from keep to keep holding block with their shield just to avoid being decimated before they can move.

The moral of the story when it comes to buffs and nerfs everybody is going to be unhappy about the good things and the bad things. I can it see now when they do changes for the classes in 1.6. Somebody going complain that they are losing dps or that another class is getting too powerful. My ultimate is useless now or now this skill is useless now but the skill that was useless is now is good.

When the champion system comes out people are going to be stacking points in more damage or more defense then somebody is going to complain that their class is too powerful even though it is because of the buffs of the champion system. There is going to be a life cycles of nerfs and buffs because somebody is going complain about another classes unique skill so they nerf it then raise another which going to nerf in the future anyway.

During beta bows was too strong, they nerf that. During the months after that " Bows are too weak, Bows are too slow, this is not fair because they have range". They buff them up again. Now they strong again. Oh somebody wants to nerf them again. They nerf sneak damage now. People are complaining now but if those same people are still there in the future they will be rejoicing because the champion going boost there sneak damage.

When Zennimax Online told people that they add and change content on monthly bases everybody was like yay. Now they hate changes. Why buff this it is still useless even though is much better than it was before. Why this ultimate should be just like this ultimate. Reasoning for comparing two ultimates duh because they are ultimates even though they do completely two different things. I have ultimate that does burst damage. I have one that boost my defense. The one ultimate that boost my defense sucks because It does not do damage like my character even though it can still be helpful to somebody else build.

We players are such fickle and complex beings.

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

The moral of the story when it comes to buffs and nerfs everybody is going to be unhappy about the good things and the bad things. I can it see now when they do changes for the classes in 1.6. Somebody going complain that they are losing dps or that another class is getting too powerful. My ultimate is useless now or now this skill is useless now but the skill that was useless is now is good.

When the champion system comes out people are going to be stacking points in more damage or more defense then somebody is going to complain that their class is too powerful even though it is because of the buffs of the champion system. There is going to be a life cycles of nerfs and buffs because somebody is going complain about another classes unique skill so they nerf it then raise another which going to nerf in the future anyway.

During beta bows was too strong, they nerf that. During the months after that " Bows are too weak, Bows are too slow, this is not fair because they have range". They buff them up again. Now they strong again. Oh somebody wants to nerf them again. They nerf sneak damage now. People are complaining now but if those same people are still there in the future they will be rejoicing because the champion going boost there sneak damage.

When Zennimax Online told people that they add and change content on monthly bases everybody was like yay. Now they hate changes. Why buff this it is still useless even though is much better than it was before. Why this ultimate should be just like this ultimate. Reasoning for comparing two ultimates duh because they are ultimates even though they do completely two different things. I have ultimate that does burst damage. I have one that boost my defense. The one ultimate that boost my defense sucks because It does not do damage like my character even though it can still be helpful to somebody else build.

We players are such fickle and complex beings.

Darkon, your content with the werewolf as is in update 1.5.1 for the pts. That's all good and gravy for you. The only people that have concerns about the werewolf are the people that are werewolves. You don't see people complaining about them being OP. You just have people saying they are weak or there isn't enough time. If they were to give us the time, wouldn't that make every one happy? It would. The talk about werewolves would probably end. Until Zos makes some sort of tweaks they feel necessary.. then you might hear the wolves again. But if the timer was boosted or done away with, every single werewolf would have less problems with werewolves and happier about what they are paying for. Which is a game that said they can play it there way. Be it being in werewolf form forever for RP or hunting in packs, to using it to kill a boss and howl over it kill pretending to be the top of the food chain when it comes to monsters. There isn't a down side to giving the werewolves what they want.(with in reason... no one shot kills on every one. haha.) We will never be the top clearing scores/times in trials or dragon star arena. We won't slay pvpers relentlessly and be some sort of undying dps force out on the field. We won't break the meta. We won't break ESO. If people are starting to be ok with the dps and the skills, then the only thing left to fix is the timer.. and a slightly lower ult cost, or maybe even the glitches that some times happen when you change, or the slow change into ww form...just yeah... not a big list or anything. Every one would shut up. Every one would then just complain about night blades or some other crap. The first day of peace for those blessed with the gift of Hircine. ah... I can see it now. Is it possible? I hope so.

***_Hero wrote: »

Darkonflare15 wrote: »

The moral of the story when it comes to buffs and nerfs everybody is going to be unhappy about the good things and the bad things. I can it see now when they do changes for the classes in 1.6. Somebody going complain that they are losing dps or that another class is getting too powerful. My ultimate is useless now or now this skill is useless now but the skill that was useless is now is good.

When the champion system comes out people are going to be stacking points in more damage or more defense then somebody is going to complain that their class is too powerful even though it is because of the buffs of the champion system. There is going to be a life cycles of nerfs and buffs because somebody is going complain about another classes unique skill so they nerf it then raise another which going to nerf in the future anyway.

During beta bows was too strong, they nerf that. During the months after that " Bows are too weak, Bows are too slow, this is not fair because they have range". They buff them up again. Now they strong again. Oh somebody wants to nerf them again. They nerf sneak damage now. People are complaining now but if those same people are still there in the future they will be rejoicing because the champion going boost there sneak damage.

When Zennimax Online told people that they add and change content on monthly bases everybody was like yay. Now they hate changes. Why buff this it is still useless even though is much better than it was before. Why this ultimate should be just like this ultimate. Reasoning for comparing two ultimates duh because they are ultimates even though they do completely two different things. I have ultimate that does burst damage. I have one that boost my defense. The one ultimate that boost my defense sucks because It does not do damage like my character even though it can still be helpful to somebody else build.

We players are such fickle and complex beings.

Darkon, your content with the werewolf as is in update 1.5.1 for the pts. That's all good and gravy for you. The only people that have concerns about the werewolf are the people that are werewolves. You don't see people complaining about them being OP. You just have people saying they are weak or there isn't enough time. If they were to give us the time, wouldn't that make every one happy? It would. The talk about werewolves would probably end. Until Zos makes some sort of tweaks they feel necessary.. then you might hear the wolves again. But if the timer was boosted or done away with, every single werewolf would have less problems with werewolves and happier about what they are paying for. Which is a game that said they can play it there way. Be it being in werewolf form forever for RP or hunting in packs, to using it to kill a boss and howl over it kill pretending to be the top of the food chain when it comes to monsters. There isn't a down side to giving the werewolves what they want.(with in reason... no one shot kills on every one. haha.) We will never be the top clearing scores/times in trials or dragon star arena. We won't slay pvpers relentlessly and be some sort of undying dps force out on the field. We won't break the meta. We won't break ESO. If people are starting to be ok with the dps and the skills, then the only thing left to fix is the timer.. and a slightly lower ult cost, or maybe even the glitches that some times happen when you change, or the slow change into ww form...just yeah... not a big list or anything. Every one would shut up. Every one would then just complain about night blades or some other crap. The first day of peace for those blessed with the gift of Hircine. ah... I can see it now. Is it possible? I hope so.

I never said I was content. I am just stated that people are going to complain and that because of this reason its going to be incredibly hard to get this ideal WW that multiple people are going to like.