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Patch v1.2.3 Known Issues

ZOS_JessicaFolsom
ZOS_JessicaFolsom
Community Manager
Below is a list of known issues for patch v1.2.3. Many of these are directly from your feedback and reports in-game and here on the official forums. Others are things we were working on before patch v1.2.3 and will roll out a fix for soon.

Thank you for helping us to identify these issues so quickly. You will see a status below each issue. We’ll update this thread as we have more info on each.


ALLIANCE WAR
  • Forward Camps: We are tracking several separate issues with Forward Camps. These include disappearing range indicators, Forward Camps being removed from the map prematurely, or not visible on the map at all.
    • STATUS: Currently testing fixes for all issues to be released in a future patch
  • PvP Scrolls: We are tracking some issues with PvP scrolls. They are periodically disappearing from Scroll Keeps, and are occasionally not interactable by anyone in any alliance. There are also times when the scroll bonuses are not working.
    • STATUS: Currently working on a fix.
  • FPS Drop Issue: There are reports of FPS drops in larger battles in select campaigns including Wabbajack.
    • STATUS: One fix pushed on 7/8, still actively investigating other causes
  • One-Shots in Cyrodiil: We’ve seen reports that some of you believe you are being one-shotted, but cannot determine how or why.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.4
  • Issues with Cyrodiil Terrain: Some player characters are able to climb rocks and walls to get into enemy starter areas.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating
  • Teleports to Safe Areas: You are not teleported back to your alliance’s starting area when entering the Northern Morrowind Gate and the Southern High Rock Gate.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.4


COMBAT & GAMEPLAY
  • Undocumented Racial Passive & Item Set Changes: Some racial passives and item sets were recently changed in Update 2 with no documentation.
    • STATUS: Patch notes posted on 6/26
  • Player Character Getting Stuck In Place: We’ve seen reports that you can occasionally get stuck, unable to move or attack, though hitting ESC twice seems to fix this as a temporary workaround.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating
  • Rapid Maneuver: There are reports that this ability is no longer working while mounted on your horse. This is a bug, not an intended change.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.4
  • Fiery Grip: Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies through keep walls.
    • STATUS: Going back for testing, will be fixed in a future patch
  • Magicka Flood: This ability is reportedly not fixed as noted.
    • STATUS: This ability is working properly.
  • Fire Clench: The knockback for this ability can be triggered repeatedly, and the ability can also trigger falling damage.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating and testing a fix
  • Haste: Using this ability with ranged weapons is not fixed.
    • STATUS: This is working properly and was not actually broken in Update 2.
  • Honor the Dead: This ability is reportedly still broken.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5
  • Werewolf Devour: This ability reportedly still has a cooldown.
    • STATUS: This was caused by confusion from the patch notes - Devour can be used every 20 seconds, and previously had a cooldown that was much higher than intended.
  • Werewolf Transformation Fix: There are reports that werewolves are still reverted back into human form and unable to use light or heavy attacks, or switch weapons.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating
  • Silver Shards: This ability is doing more damage than it should be.
    • STATUS: Fixed in patch 1.2.5.
  • Weapon Swapping Breaking Stealth: Swapping weapons while you are stealthed breaks your stealth for a few seconds, notably with item sets with weapons.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.4


CRAFTING & ECONOMY
  • Racial Motifs & Provisioning Recipes: These now have a value of zero gold. However, this was an unintended change and will be reverted back so they can be sold at a vendor for gold.
    • STATUS: Hotfix applied on 6/25
  • Jerkins Requiring Breeches To Be Made: There is currently no toggle feature to change between robes and jerkins, and breeches must be made to replace a robe.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating
  • Night's Silence Set Bonus: We've seen reports that the bonus for this item set may not be working properly, and may be more than just a UI issue.
    • STATUS: Will be fixed when Update 3 is released.



DUNGEONS & TRIALS
  • Aetherian Archive Teleport Pads: The teleport pads on the first island in Aetherian Archive do not remain active after their first use.
    • STATUS: Currently testing a fix to be released for a future patch
  • Razak’s Wheel, The Mystery of Razak: This quest can occasionally fail to award the quest reward Razak’s Toy Spider.
    • STATUS: Pushed a hotfix for this on 7/22
  • Volenfell, Blood and Sand: Levers can become unresponsive if someone in your group is left behind.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.4


MISCELLANEOUS
  • No XP Gains: Some of you are reporting that you’re not seeing any XP, VP, or AP gains, though rebooting occasionally seems to fix this and the XP “catches up.” This seems to be a UI issue and may be caused by out-of-date addons.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5.
  • Razer Naga and Logitech Wireless Mouse: The middle mouse button is no longer working for these select mice.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5.
  • Groupmates Not In Same Instance: Player characters are not ending up in the same instance as the rest of their group if the leader starts the instance before a group is created, and other player characters enter after the group is created.
    • STATUS: Fixed in patch 1.2.5.
  • Game Does Not Launch: This appears to be related to some antivirus programs. Turning the antivirus program off is a confirmed workaround.
  • Cursed Hero Achievement: You are unable to get this achievement
    when you kill High Kinlord Rilis without cleansing a curse.
    • STATUS: Will be fixed when we release Update 3.
  • Switching to Cursor Mode: You can occasionally be forced into cursor mode when opening your map.
    • STATUS: This is working as designed.
  • Stormhaven: Windridge Cave: Some players reported receiving "unknown error" upon trying to activate corpses/ players unable to log back into game.
    • STATUS: Fixed in patch 1.2.6.


QUESTS
  • Auridon, Eye of the Ancients: This quest is currently not completable.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5.
  • Auridon, Silent Village: The bears associated with the quest are not following you.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5.
  • Coldharbour, The Final Assault: Porting out of the Molag Bal fight will make the portal not interactable.
    • STATUS: This appears to be fixed
  • Coldharbour, The Soul-Meld Mage: Cannot interact with the rubble-blocked door.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5.
  • Craglorn, The Shattered and the Lost: The second mage is not appearing after you complete the puzzle.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.6.
  • Deshaan, School Daze: You occasionally cannot interact with the spheres associated with this quest.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating.
  • Fighters Guild: Sees-All-Colors will sometimes not walk into the portal to advance the quest step “Wait for Sees-All-Colors.”
    • STATUS: We are looking for more details about this particular issue. If you have any additional information you can share, please reach out to our Customer Support team.
  • Fighters Guild, Will of the Council: This quest is not updating after you kill Aelif.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating.
  • Greenshade, Stone Cold: You cannot interact with Indanas and the Hollow Watchman.
    • STATUS: Fixed in patch 1.2.4.
  • Cadwell’s Almanac: You cannot progress some quests in the Almanac if they are abandoned.
    • STATUS: Will be fixed when we release Update 3.
  • Halls of Torment: Taking the portal to the Halls of Torment before Lyris uses the portal will sometimes block you from progressing the quest.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.6.
  • Reaper’s March, Hadran’s Fall: Tand can occasionally become stuck in the slave cage on the quest step “Rescue Tand.”
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.6.
  • Reaper's March, A Traitor's Luck: Cariel is not spawning.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.6.
  • Shadowfen, And Throw Away the Key: Jurni will sometimes not appear for the quest step “Take Medical Supplies to the Tower.”
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5.
  • Stonefalls, Shattering Mirror: You cannot interact with the Altar.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5.
  • Stormhaven, Azura’s Relics: Vaermina’s Weaver will sometimes disappear, blocking your quest progress.
    • STATUS: Fixed with patch 1.2.5.
  • The Rift, Stomping Sinmur: Sinmur heals to full when around half health, and ally NPCs can freeze and don’t progress through the quest.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating.


UI
  • On-Screen Notifications Not Working: We’ve seen reports that you may no longer be getting on-screen notifications for things such as picking up a new Skyshard, getting a dungeon boss achievement, etc.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating
  • Names Dropping From UI: Loading into new zones and logging out sometimes causes group member names to drop out of the group UI.
    • STATUS: Currently working on a fix.
  • Addon Settings: The add-on settings currently are not working as intended.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating.
Jessica Folsom
Lead Community Manager - ZeniMax Online Studios
Facebook | Twitter | Twitch | Tumblr | Instagram | YouTube | Support
Staff Post
  • Mujuro
    Mujuro
    ✭✭✭✭
    Several crafted item sets aren't working properly or as stated in the description, such as Night's Silence.

    Also, I'm not sure if this was "intended": VR-level humanoid mobs are breaking CC and becoming immune to subsequent CC attempts by the player.

    VR-level humanoid mobs occasionally get out-of-sync, such that you cannot attack them. Shortly after trying to attack, the mobs will do the "running man" thing to their patrol destination, at which time they become attackable again. This has only happened to me with "roving patrol" humanoid mobs so far.

    On first playing after the 1.2.3 patch, my character's max HP value dropped by 60, and I can't identify any skill changes that would have caused this. I had the Lord mundus buff active both prior to the 1.2.3 patch, as well as after.

    Also re Razak's Wheel, this issue was already present (it happened to me) prior to 1.2.3.
    Edited by Mujuro on June 25, 2014 10:56PM
  • SoulScream
    SoulScream
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a long list, good luck!
  • Skewki
    Skewki
    ✭✭
    Nightblades being seen while "invisible" and close to NPC mobs.. at first i thought it was just the self dot/hot/debuff bug, but it is a separate issue. Happened several times around spiders, noticed it with trolls too, snakes in craglorn... i'm sure several other types of enemies also.
    Edited by Skewki on June 27, 2014 3:32AM
  • xoxox
    xoxox
    Soul Shriven
    I have to say this is the kind of open and comprehensive feedback about ongoing issues that I've been hoping to see for a very long time. It's a shame so many people cancelled their subscriptions before ZOS worked out how to communicate with their customers.
  • Celuwen
    Celuwen
    ✭✭✭
    This is brilliant communication, thank you. Please keep doing this. Please.
  • Inzababa
    Inzababa
    ✭✭✭
    that's a lot of issues lol, but good job for coming out hands on the table about it, nice one
    Resistance is FUtilez
    Civilized men are more discourteous than savages because they know they can be impolite without having their skulls split, as a general thing.
    Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.

    Resistance is FUtilez
  • timidobserver
    timidobserver
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    ✭✭✭✭
    As far as I can tell 70% of the stuff in the patch doesn't work?
    V16 Uriel Stormblessed EP Magicka Templar(main)
    V16 Derelict Vagabond EP Stamina DK
    V16 Redacted Ep Stam Sorc
    V16 Insolent EP Magicka Sorc(retired)
    V16 Jed I Nyte EP Stamina NB(retired)

  • ZOS_GinaBruno
    ZOS_GinaBruno
    Community Manager
    Just edited the first post to reflect the recipe and motif hotfix that went live this evening. One down!
    Gina Bruno
    Senior Community Manager
    Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter
    Staff Post
  • Allyhoo811
    Allyhoo811
    ✭✭✭
    [*] No XP Gains: Some of you are reporting that you’re not seeing any XP, VP, or AP gains, though rebooting occasionally seems to fix this and the XP “catches up.” This seems to be a UI issue and may be caused by out-of-date addons.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating

    I am experiencing this issue, and have never used any add-ons for ESO.

    Thanks for keeping us informed of what is going on :)
  • david.haypreub18_ESO
    david.haypreub18_ESO
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's a long list, but I do appreciate the way you note the status of what you are doing to fix it.
    Templars are 'just slower... by design'
    Yes, Gina actually said that (at least regarding Rushed Ceremony) right here:
    http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/161959/templar-skills-bugged-made-useless-ignored/p24
    VR 16 Templar (retired until Templars get fixed)
    VR 16 Sorcerer
    38 Nightblade
    24 DK
  • Anath_Q
    Anath_Q
    ✭✭✭✭
    Currently experiencing a couple of these problems...great to know I can check here for updates without having to sift through posts for official info. Thank you very much for putting this on the forums and maintaining it!
    | GM Cheesemongers of Nirn |
  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    [*] Honor the Dead: This ability is reportedly still broken.
    • STATUS: Currently investigating

    Wow. If this is the "only returning magicka when your ally is below 50% health *after* the heal" bug, it might be the first time I have seen it acknowledged as a bug. I had begun to assume it was WAI but the tooltip was inaccurate. Would love for this to work like the tooltip says. We Templars are always running out of magicka and, while this is highly situational and not much help to dps/tank sustain, it is at least a little something in the way of resource management.

    Thanks for the honesty. I don't need it hotfixed in the next 14 seconds, but it is just nice to know that Honor the Dead is broken. I really had no idea one one or the other for a while now.
  • runagate
    runagate
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭
    Skewki wrote: »
    Nightblades being seen while "invisible" and close to NPC mobs.. at first i thought it was just the self dot/hot/debuff bug, but it is a separate issue. Happened several times around spiders, noticed it with trolls too.

    I can confirm this, and have reported it elsewhere. In fact, there seems to be separate issues concerning the NB ability versus simply crouching. Stealth is being broken in a wide variety of circumstances I haven't been able to pin down exactly, but oddly the NB is ability is NOT in those situations, whereas the NB ability is also not working in entirely different situations and it's not just spiders, but apparently several insect-like mobs as I spent a horrendous amount of time looking for bosses for myself, and then another person who happened along, in a cave in Cyrodiil with lots of thunderbugs in it (so long that I ended up having 97 carapaces to sell when I left!). What's really, really strange is that some trolls ignored me while stealthed but NOT when using Shadowy Disguise.

    Also, something is amiss with the stealth radius boosts. As a NB Khajiit with an armor-based enchantment all working in conjunction I've not had time to test which is bugged.

    My main character was unable to get the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter achievement, despite having gotten all Skyshards outside Craglorn (which are not required for the achievement). Although all requisite achievements are displayed individually, on the list for the Tamriel Skyshard Hunter only the Cyrodiil: Covenant Territory Skyshards achievement is white (not greyed-out). Customer Service indicated that my achievement showed up on their end, so it is likely a back-end mismatch issue as the Achievement Points are missing as well.

    I was able to get the Tamriel Master Cave Dwelller achievement, although the Explorer title didn't show up on the Character Screen UI's drop-down list of titles, but bizarrely shared a "slot" on the list with Tamriel Hero, as choosing that title would then alternate between the two being displayed (!?) until a soft reset, and then it resolved on it's own.

    My main character was unable to get the Tamriel Anchor Shatterer and title Savior of Nirn, as despite now having soloed the Nibenay Valley Dolmen four times I cannot get the achievement, and it remains grayed-out, and thus so does the Imperial Anchor achievement.

    (Yes, it's weird that I finished all of these achievements since the Patch, but I happened to have been working on them all immediately beforehand).

    In Cyrodiil some DK model enemies (skeletons come to mind) now spam abilities like their equivalent of Uppercut or the like, which is not really a problem because unlike in the VR zones armor still works in Cyrodiil so it doesn't simply cut straight through blocking. I honestly can't recall ever having had mobs spam Talons on me, and it's kind of fun, but it certainly terrified me the first couple times it happened as I assumed that enemies from another Alliance had showed up.

    Teleport Strike seems to do a hell of a lot more damage from Invisibility than before which seemed nice until someone pointed out that this likely works on players in PvP as well. As a NB this of course amuses me but it may very well not be what's intended, and may be OP. I'm sure we'll all hear about it on the forums soon.

    The "stuck in combat" bug is back with a vengeance although unlike at any other time it seems to aright itself without relogging after a few minutes.

    Even more annoying than being unable to mount is that, while experiencing this bug, my character's stamina was incapable of regenerating above approximately 25% of it's total. In PvP these things are very, very bad.

    Stealth's cool-down after being seen by enemies, in particular other-Alliance spellcasters, is still completely broken while outdoors (doesn't seem to be a problem in instances, strangely).

    Of all the things I myself would like to see fixed immediately Rapid Maneuvers tops the list by far! Rapid Maneuvers continues to, completely at random, have a cool-down time of up to several minutes for no apparent reason, not allowing it to be re-cast and making a very, very loud sound like the Gates of Chim being closed.

  • Dagoth_Rac
    Dagoth_Rac
    ✭✭✭✭✭
    ✭✭✭✭
    [*] Razak’s Wheel, The Mystery of Razak: This quest can occasionally fail to award the quest reward Razak’s Toy Spider.

      As someone mentioned, this is not a 1.2.3 issue. I had it happen to me last week. I sent a support ticket via the website and I was emailed "Razak's Opus" within a few hours. Love that little guy. Plus, my pet monkey was exhausted from following me across half of Tamriel and Oblivion. He wanted a break. :-)
    • ZOS_GinaBruno
      ZOS_GinaBruno
      Community Manager
      To clarify, there are a couple issues on this list that were present prior to 1.2.3 (mainly under Quests and Gameplay).
      Gina Bruno
      Senior Community Manager
      Dev Tracker | Service Alerts | ESO Twitter | My Twitter
      Staff Post
    • Bloodvax
      Bloodvax
      ✭✭✭
      Fiery grip is garbage if you cant use it to pull players off the walls in cyrodill. Is this really not how its supposed to be used?
      ASYLUM-PVP
      Bloodvax- Vet Templar underpowered crafter
      Molly Mesita-OP NB
      Lizerd Wizard-Lowbie PVP toon
      AOC Big Deal Emperor of the Forum Trolls
    • Dayv
      Dayv
      ✭✭✭✭
      To my eyes, the real major issue is quality control. I'm really hoping (probably in vain) to see a post from ZOS saying that they've recognised problems with the QA system and will be working especially hard on not introducing bugs with patches. I'd like to be able to look forward to them instead of worry about them.
    • Zxaxz
      Zxaxz
      ✭✭✭
      @ZOS_GinaBruno‌
      What happened to the 50~ pages of Night Blade issues, that used to be Pinned at the top of the main page?

      I hope it's not, that you all thought you fixed anything in the NB class that was on that list, you seem to be missing 99.99% of whats broken with the Night Blade class on this list. And now that that one is deleted/ conveniently moved? Out of ('site' get it) Sight, out of mind?
      Edited by Zxaxz on June 26, 2014 1:25AM
      Darkness is the natural state of the galaxy. A light will not shine forever; one day it will burn itself out. Darkness, however, is everlasting and never expires.
    • Vez
      Vez
      ✭✭✭
      @ZOS_JessicaFolsom It's worth noting that FPS drops in select campaigns is not secluded to large battles as the OP indicates. It's happening to people over time (~20 minutes) while logged on in Cyrodiil whether or not they are near other players, a keep, or a large battle.
    • ferzalrwb17_ESO
      ferzalrwb17_ESO
      ✭✭✭✭✭
      Dayv wrote: »
      To my eyes, the real major issue is quality control. I'm really hoping (probably in vain) to see a post from ZOS saying that they've recognised problems with the QA system and will be working especially hard on not introducing bugs with patches. I'd like to be able to look forward to them instead of worry about them.

      Absolutely. I was dreading this patch. And I got what I expected. Being pessimistic leads to less disappointment with ESO I find. :P

    • Slpy
      Slpy
      Soul Shriven
      Big thumbs up for posting this.

      Through this you are communicating with the players, and that's a step in the right direction, thank you.
    • Bouvin
      Bouvin
      ✭✭✭✭✭
      Zxaxz wrote: »
      @ZOS_GinaBruno‌
      What happened to the 30~ pages of Night Blade issues, that used to be Pinned at the top of the main page?

      I hope it's not, that you all thought you fixed anything in the NB class that was on that list, you seem to be missing 99.99% of whats broken with the Night Blade class on this list. And now that that one is deleted? Out of ('site' get it) Sight, out of mind?

      QFT. I was unpleasantly surprised at the lack of NB fixes that were promised.

      I guess it's a sign to keep leveling my sorcerer.

      Edit: Here's the thread in case anyone is looking for it. Ya..lots of "known issues" missing from the patch. http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/100627/nightblade-update/p1
      Edited by Bouvin on June 26, 2014 1:20AM
    • Natjur
      Natjur
      ✭✭✭✭✭
      Thank you for this list. Just knowing that the dev team is looking at theses and knowing that they are bugs not intend changed makes a big difference.

      Thanks again for keeping us informed
    • Mortosk
      Mortosk
      ✭✭✭✭
      Gotta give ZOS props for this. Looks like a pretty complete list of issues and what action is being taken to fix them.

      Glad to see them making an attempt to communicate better.
      "Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)
    • CoUsT
      CoUsT
      ✭✭✭
      Yay, you finally created list of known issues! Awesome!
    • Zxaxz
      Zxaxz
      ✭✭✭
      Yea, I do believe every word from a Dev in this entire post, http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/100627/nightblade-update/p1
      has turned out to be a lie (Regarding what they would fix) and now they drop this post from being pinned to the top of the page to hide it. Wonder if is suddenly gets "accidentally, wiped from the HardDrive" ?
      Edited by Zxaxz on June 26, 2014 1:45AM
      Darkness is the natural state of the galaxy. A light will not shine forever; one day it will burn itself out. Darkness, however, is everlasting and never expires.
    • aco5712
      aco5712
      ✭✭✭✭✭
      [*] Fiery Grip: Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.

        Ummmmmm but who thought this was a bug and needs to be fixed? This has been like this since probably alpha and its always something to be careful of when standing on keep walls. This should not be changed... If archers/mages can pop someone while close to a wall, then why cant a DK pull them off and punish them for standing out in the open without blocking... This skill seperates real pvpers and level 10s and should not be changed.
        Banned for Naming and Shaming exploiters. Great ideology ZOS.
        #FreeLeo

        Main: Vir Cor | Dragonknight
        Alt: Leo Cor | Nightblade
        Alt: Leonidas Cor | Templar

        Guild: K-Hole
        Youtube: CorESO
        DK PvP Tank/DPS Hybrid Build (2.1+): Cor Leonis
      • Mortosk
        Mortosk
        ✭✭✭✭
        CRAFTING & ECONOMY

        Racial Motifs & Provisioning Recipes: These now have a value of zero gold. However, this was an unintended change and will be reverted back so they can be sold at a vendor for gold.
        STATUS: Hotfix applied on 6/25

        @ZOS_GinaBruno

        Says this was hot fixed. My green recipes still show they are worth 0 gold.
        However, when you try to vendor them, you get 9 gold. Is it a client side thing you can't update with a hot fix or something?
        Edited by Mortosk on June 26, 2014 1:49AM
        "Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)
      • Mortosk
        Mortosk
        ✭✭✭✭
        Soul Magic Skill Soul Lock.

        Weapon Kills have a 5% chance to trap souls.

        So, I've been carrying around 4 empty grand soul gems for 3 days. I've killed a lot of stuff. You'd think they would have been filled by now.

        Perhaps this skill isn't working properly?
        "Now I stand, the lion before the lambs and they do not fear. They can not fear." --Arthas Menethil (aka, The Lich King)
      • Kalanar Highwatch
        [*] Fiery Grip: Using this ability in Cyrodiil can pull enemies off keep walls.

          Did you mean to say something like "It's a bug to be able to use this to pull enemies into areas they otherwise shouldn't be able to access (gates)"? We've always been able to pull people off of keep walls (and onto for that matter).
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