Request: Allow Grouping in Currently "Solo-Only" Instances

YourNameHere

Ysne58 wrote: »

I believe that grouping, at least with one other person, should be allowed. Some of those forced battles are just stupid hard.

Yup especially the ONE quest where you get FOUR companions to help you, but after the first wave they all stand around like IDIOTS.

And the point of companions are?

I'd rather take my not so competent husband into the instance cause at least I know he'd be doing SOMETHING.

YourNameHere

Hawke wrote: »

I have faced Doshia (and her level 43 equivalent) solo and she was challenging ( a little easier now because of the changes) but you just needed to use the basic combat skills.

I also faced not boss level, but not trash level versions of doshia also with others helping out, and she would go down faster than a $2 professional, if you know what I mean.

I think leaving it alone, keeping certain quests solo is fine. If you cannot progress through the Mage or Fighter quest lines at the level they are meant to be played at and have to wait 10 more levels or more to do them, well, it is what it is. You are not being confined to a certain zone, or unable to progress in the main story, so the Guilds are just extra.

Get better or get more levels to compensate. Not trying to be crass but, honestly, if the game gets "evened" out anymore, most of the gamers won't feel that challenge and may become bored.

Heh .. basic combat skills. Did you happen to fight her in the one level 40 equivilent where she is in a small building and makes her bubbles which are on TOP of her cause of the tiny space? There ain't nothing in basic combat skills to help you there.

More of crap game design than anything.

When you speak of "most of the gamers" you are speaking about hardcore ones. Well sorry to disagree but I think most of them already left after they hit V10 and were bored.

Can you explain where we stated we wanted anything easier? I mean, just because we have ONE person with us doesn't mean anything will be easier. Hell, I'd rather have one person, a REAL person, with me, than the 4 idiot NPCs in the Ravenspire quest because their crap coding has them doing NOTHING after the first wave. What's the point? And yes, this quest is solo.

I do agree that solo quests are a gear check (I tried to do a level 43 guild quest at 39 and got romped) so leveling and getting better gear is great.

But this is also an MMORPG. I don't understand why so many are against CHOICE in a game that has ZERO impact on you. Like when they put an easier mode in Dark Souls that had people's panties in a bunch, even though it was an OPTION.

Heh ... people are wierd, and kinda sad.

Zenimax already made bad decisions that are making people change to Light/Destro sets, which is a shame because of how their game is set up. I find most of the people who say "learn to play" are DKs/Sorc/Destro/Light wielders. It really gets tiring since not everyone wants to be those class/skill combos.

My main is a NB/Bow/Med/Siphon combo. I can do quite decently against up to 3 regular mobs. Some I have difficulty with when they cannot be affected by some of my skills (as they have snare effects on them as well) so it makes fighting difficult.

So I got myself DW and been working with the Assassin line (and the other I can't think of). Oh wait ... still can't do crap since melee is sub-par DPS against DK and destro staff ...

Would having a group or partner fix everything for me? No, but it would bring me and my husband more fun as we work together to assist in a quest, as well as help teach us both more about battles and how to fight better.

YourNameHere

AinGeal wrote: »

I killed Doshia with my first character. Leather armor, DW, NB. Way back before many of the patches. While I was the same level as the boss.

If the game is too advanced for you, move on.

And ....?

People don't realize Doshia's fight was different in the 3 factions. Two you in a wide open space. One had you in a cramped cave with environments you could get stuck on, and she couldn't be taken out far enough so she leashed back.

The problem, IMHO, was less on the fight itself but the crap environment design.

I HAVE done all 3 Doshia fights for all 3 factions.

All the same combat strategy (though I will admit, she spammed the bubble attack way too much). But fighting in a small, cramped cave, with boxes and parts of the environment to get stuck on, as well as she being leashed so you couldn't get distance AND certain places she was in she could spawn the bubbles on top of her ...

Has nothing to do with L2P attitude. Unless you are Cmdr. Data with lightning fast reflexes, she will heal herself all the way up.

And to add, I didn't have any problems of dying in that fight. She barely hurt me, she just always was leashed back or healed because my damage couldn't stick.

Melian

YourNameHere wrote: »

[
Heh .. basic combat skills. Did you happen to fight her in the one level 40 equivilent where she is in a small building and makes her bubbles which are on TOP of her cause of the tiny space? There ain't nothing in basic combat skills to help you there.

If it's the one I'm thinking of, you can pull her out of the building. Positioning - it doesn't get much more basic than that.

A lot of the appeal of an MMO comes from the fact that everyone is experiencing the same virtual world. If you allow too many different difficulty levels you water that down, and you take away the sense of achievement from completing the content. Most players *are* able to complete this stuff; not easily, but bosses are not supposed to be easy.

Those who can't even after outleveling it and seeking advice should just face facts: we can't all be good at everything. I am and will always be godawful at most sports, in part because I lack depth perception, but I don't get mad that average people can do something I can't or spoil their fun by insisting that they play at a lower level - I just do something else.

I would support a duo option for the main/guild quest lines if and only if it is scaled up to be at least as difficult for each player as the solo option.

GreySix

Melian wrote: »

Did you read what I said?

I did.

Melian wrote: »

I absolutely was attacking your position when I said I oppose the option to trivialize content.

Stopping you right there.

Now, go find ... anywhere ... that I posted any argument ... anywhere ... that asserted that content should be trivialized. Those are your words, not mine. My sole argument from the start (handily found in the OP) was that current solo-only instances should allow at least cooperative play.

And to forestall the very straw man fallacy that you raised, I even went so far as to suggest instances to be scaled upward in difficulty in regard to number of players therein.

And since the rest of your "argument" is built upon that straw man fallacy, I'll not bother wasting more time on it.

GreySix

Hawke wrote: »

Time to move on from this thread. Good luck but I hope they don't change the current solo-only instances to allow grouping. There is no real reason.

Fixed for the inaccuracy of your post. As all others with your point of view, you offered no logical reason for your point of view.

You oppose choice for all others who don't think exactly as you do.

Got it.

Attronach

I think Zenimax have full statistic from these fights so they can easily make table to see what class, what lvl and how many times player die in these 'solo' instances.

If they see some class can't finish some zone >10 times in row its time to do something... say in word we know already from this game NERF that class ...

AinGeal

YourNameHere wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

I killed Doshia with my first character. Leather armor, DW, NB. Way back before many of the patches. While I was the same level as the boss.

If the game is too advanced for you, move on.

And ....?

People don't realize Doshia's fight was different in the 3 factions. Two you in a wide open space. One had you in a cramped cave with environments you could get stuck on, and she couldn't be taken out far enough so she leashed back.

The problem, IMHO, was less on the fight itself but the crap environment design.

I HAVE done all 3 Doshia fights for all 3 factions.

All the same combat strategy (though I will admit, she spammed the bubble attack way too much). But fighting in a small, cramped cave, with boxes and parts of the environment to get stuck on, as well as she being leashed so you couldn't get distance AND certain places she was in she could spawn the bubbles on top of her ...

Has nothing to do with L2P attitude. Unless you are Cmdr. Data with lightning fast reflexes, she will heal herself all the way up.

And to add, I didn't have any problems of dying in that fight. She barely hurt me, she just always was leashed back or healed because my damage couldn't stick.

The "small cramped cave" is for the Ebonheart Pact. It's the only one I've ever done it on. You are exaggerating greatly.

I first started getting into video games with the Nintendo when it first came out. Back when you could either beat the content or you couldn't and there were no devs to adjust the difficulty. If something was too hard to beat, you tried over and over and over until you finally did it. With those games this often meant having to start over when you ran out of lives. Running out of lives is something you can't do in ESO. You die, you spawn, you run back and try again as often as you like.

Clearly this concept of 'practice makes perfect' is lost to this new generation of gamers who want the content to be a cake walk and want huge rewards for completing this trivial content. Yet back in the early days of gaming, finally actually getting past a difficult part after so many tries was often its own reward.

We have an expression over in EVE online. HTFU.

Melian

GreySix wrote: »

Now, go find ... anywhere ... that I posted any argument ... anywhere ... that asserted that content should be trivialized. Those are your words, not mine. My sole argument from the start (handily found in the OP) was that current solo-only instances should allow at least cooperative play.

And to forestall the very straw man fallacy that you raised, I even went so far as to suggest instances to be scaled upward in difficulty in regard to number of players therein.

Letting more players in than the content is designed for trivializes it. That needs no explanation.

Your earlier (closed) thread made it clear that you wanted this option so you could carry your wife who can't be bothered to learn mechanics. You are also not the only person in this thread, and the others only argue that the content is too hard for them to solo. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you only want to do things as a duo for fun, but that isn't the crowd your request has attracted; it has attracted bad players who want grouping as a de facto nerf.

If it is adequately scaled up, enough to require the same skill, you won't be able to carry your wife unless you are an above average player yourself. @Hnightblazenub18_ESO still won't be able to beat it without the help of a pro. Like I said, if you want to scale it up that far, I don't oppose it, so I don't see why you're even arguing with me.

Edit: Out of curiosity, are you and your wife still boycotting these questlines on principle? Have you actually spent the last month paying for a game you refuse to play in order to make a point, when you could have progressed past those quests in five minutes after outleveling them? That's sad, and rather immature.

Ysne58

isengrimb16_ESO wrote: »

Ysne58 wrote: »

I'm the one who is 15 levels higher than Lyris Doppleganger. I have updated armor and I have tried this and others frequently. I was 2 levels higher this time for Doshia and managed. The nerfed Gutstripper to the point where that one was painfully easy.

Anyone who tells me I'm doing something wrong is being an elitist jerk. The only boss I cannot handle at this point is the harvester. The tips I have gotten have allowed me to beat all the other bosses that I was not able to handle before -- so stop making those idiotic comments about how it's just me and I'm doing something incorrectly. Because you are the ones who are wrong here.

I do not expect vet content to be a cake walk. The forced solo content that I am unable to handle needs to be changed. Because I'm not the only one.

It's not to Moonmount that is bugged by the way @isengrimb16_ESO‌, its the part of the Moonlit Path quest where you need to defend the Green Lady and the Silvenar. The mobs you need to protect them are not spawning. The Arbordawn Cult quest where you need to protect the idiot Talengar has the exact same spawn issue.

@Sakiri‌ I will take a look at your video as soon as I have time. Thank you for posting it.

I did the entire moonlit path, and my chosen champion is now Mane. Perhaps that has something to do with it, I did the quests out of order.

And 15 levels, no, you should be overpowered after about five or so, certainly after the quest goes grey. I made bad choices on my first toon - a templar, too, and I need to analyze him before I do anything else with him; he's lvl 15. He's really weak. Though my nightbow feels really strong now lvl 44), possibly because of wiser choices.


If it makes you feel better, I had to run away from Gutripper three times on my sorc. I'll come back in a level or two, when I have the mats to make missing gear and/or find a decent self-heal I can get.

Wrong. The only boss I cannot beat solo is the Harvester. The one at level 30 behaves differently than the new Doshia. And I am not the only one who has issues with her.


You can't beat the competely nerfed Gutstripper? That one is even easier than a regular clanfear. To tell me I should be able to beat the harvesters when you can't beat Gutstripper? You really are a piece of work.

zgrssd

YourNameHere wrote: »

Ysne58 wrote: »

I believe that grouping, at least with one other person, should be allowed. Some of those forced battles are just stupid hard.

Yup especially the ONE quest where you get FOUR companions to help you, but after the first wave they all stand around like IDIOTS.

Broken companions could be the core issue here. When I ran into that point I made a Delays progress or Blocks progress report, reporting that the companions did not do anything (or at least not enough to help me do this).
Allowing grouping in those cases would allow us to continue on despite bugs with companions.

I also often have issues of doing foes as healer. Since I naturally target for healing output, I am not that good in durability or damage output.
A properly build PvE group healer relies on somebody doing the damage/taking the damage for him. Not doing so would mean you overfocuss on areas where investing had little use for your group.

Oddly my best solo experience so far has been as Tank. Higher Armor plus health regen allows me to even solo mini-ancors most of the time (but I do know they are group content), if I manage to kill foes fast enough.

Ysne58

Having 2 go through these forced solo quest does not trivialize it. In any way shape or form. The harvester fight is not a gear/level check. It's a wallbashingly frustrating and bugged one.

I do not believe the devs have explained their reasoning for forcing the solo bit. This was an incredibly bad design on their part.

Melian

Ysne58 wrote: »

Having 2 go through these forced solo quest does not trivialize it. In any way shape or form. The harvester fight is not a gear/level check. It's a wallbashingly frustrating and bugged one.

I do not believe the devs have explained their reasoning for forcing the solo bit. This was an incredibly bad design on their part.

It's a skill/build check. The fact that you feel 2 players would make it less frustrating says everything. Bugs? I had a bug on Doshia on one of my characters (invisible orbs) - I just relogged and tried again. Bugs have nothing to do with it.

The only 2-player option I'd support would probably be just as frustrating to you.

Melian

Ysne58 wrote: »

Wrong. The only boss I cannot beat solo is the Harvester. The one at level 30 behaves differently than the new Doshia. And I am not the only one who has issues with her.

Is this the later one in the fighters' guild questline? If so, pull her down the stairs. The orbs spawn behind her and follow her down, giving you more time to kill them.

Ysne58

Where have the devs said it's a skill check?

Allowing for grouping, even with one other person, has no adverse impact on your game play. It may have an adverse effect on your elitist self image. As stated by other players, you have provided no valid or logical reason to not allow grouping.

I do not see any valid reason to force solo the main, mage or fighter's quest skill line. Those are all something every player easily gets access to.

The werewolf and vampire ones, I do not have an opinion on.

Melian

Oh, before I forget:

GreySix wrote: »

Now, go find ... anywhere ... that I posted any argument ... anywhere ... that asserted that content should be trivialized.

You were pretty open about your motivations in your last thread (not to mention your sexism):

GreySix wrote: »

I want the option to group with my wife in instances, which would of course reduce the challenge, vice those going such instances alone.

GreySix wrote: »

Again, we have ZERO - NADA - NO desire to improve in a game like this, master mechanics, or figure out what we're doing wrong.

GreySix wrote: »

Again, we're not in this for the challenge of fifteen-minute battles with some super-boss. We're in it for cooperative and fun play. Period.

GreySix wrote: »

We're not here to learn and master the gaming mechanics of this MMO.

GreySix wrote: »

My wife will simply quit after becoming frustrated, and I'll quickly follow suit - since we purchased two copies of the game and two subscriptions for the sole purpose of grouping together in everything.

If you're married, you'll already know that telling your wife she's doing it wrong after an enemy wipes the floor with her in an instanced dungeon where you can't help her out, is not a viable course of action. If you're not married, you'll have no idea what I'm talking about, and this will by necessity make no sense to you.

"GreySix wrote: »

Are you married, or do you have a girlfriend? If so, do you play cooperatively on games like this with one? If the answer is no, then this will necessarily make no sense to you:

At no time is a viable course of action telling your wife/girlfriend that she's doing it wrong, after her character gets curb-stomped. And if you're not able to help out, she'll quit.

"GreySix wrote: »

My wife doesn't read forums, and many other gaming couples (on the male side) face similar challenges. My wife, and many wives/girlfriends will play a game like this cooperatively only so long as its fun.

-> Getting repeatedly beaten down by a big bad boss without husband's/boyfriend's help is not fun

-> Searching forums to see how you're doing it wrong is not fun

They tend to stop, say, "This isn't fun. I'm doing something else," and then they do something else. Then both unsubscribe.

Ysne58

Making it easier does not necessarily trivialize it.

RianaTheBosmer

There should be no solo content. Content should only be solo if the player wants it to be solo.

GreySix

Melian wrote: »

Letting more players in than the content is designed for trivializes it. That needs no explanation.

Two things:

1. I'd posted that we'd be willing to scale such instances IAW the number of extra players. MMOs have been doing that for more than a decade, so it isn't rocket-science
2. How would allegedly trivializing content for others personally adversely affect your game-play?

Ysne58

1. Trivial does not mean the same thing as easy.

2. How does this personally affect your game play?

GreySix

Melian wrote: »

[snip pieces from scattered threads]

See the OP in THIS thread, vice dredging up others. My recommendation in THIS thread allows for scaling difficulty of instances, so everything else you posted is moot.

Now, I'll allow you to retort to recommendations brought forth in THIS thread.

AinGeal

In light of the quotes of Greysix seen above...

I was married for 6 years.

Yes, if she is doing things wrong, you should point it out.

Will she get upset with you? Sorta, she'll get frustrated and take it out on you.
Will this lead to a fight? Maybe.
Would you be better off not pointing out her mistakes? Absolutely not, and here is why.

If all you are is a "Yes Ma'am" guy in the relationship. She'll lose respect for you. Sounds odd but it's true. Like I said, I WAS married for 6 years. I was a 'Yes ma'am' guy. Always letting her have her way. Putting no fault onto her. Unless she is specifically looking for a man servant (which is a bad relationship), she'll lose respect for you. So my advice is to grow a pair and point out her mistakes. She'll get upset with you in the short run but will respect you more in the long run.

Hnightblazenub18_ESO

Melian wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

Now, go find ... anywhere ... that I posted any argument ... anywhere ... that asserted that content should be trivialized. Those are your words, not mine. My sole argument from the start (handily found in the OP) was that current solo-only instances should allow at least cooperative play.

And to forestall the very straw man fallacy that you raised, I even went so far as to suggest instances to be scaled upward in difficulty in regard to number of players therein.

Letting more players in than the content is designed for trivializes it. That needs no explanation.

Your earlier (closed) thread made it clear that you wanted this option so you could carry your wife who can't be bothered to learn mechanics. You are also not the only person in this thread, and the others only argue that the content is too hard for them to solo. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, maybe you only want to do things as a duo for fun, but that isn't the crowd your request has attracted; it has attracted bad players who want grouping as a de facto nerf.

If it is adequately scaled up, enough to require the same skill, you won't be able to carry your wife unless you are an above average player yourself. @Hnightblazenub18_ESO still won't be able to beat it without the help of a pro. Like I said, if you want to scale it up that far, I don't oppose it, so I don't see why you're even arguing with me.

Edit: Out of curiosity, are you and your wife still boycotting these questlines on principle? Have you actually spent the last month paying for a game you refuse to play in order to make a point, when you could have progressed past those quests in five minutes after outleveling them? That's sad, and rather immature.

I haven't skipped or failed to complete any quests at the appropriate level thus far. Get your facts in line before you attack people. I had issues with Halls of Torment, but I didn't leave until I figured it out. I don't believe in skipping content or out leveling it and coming back when completing it gets you nothing. This is why I also believe that all content should be multiplayer allowed, so when I'm playing with friends I'm not forced to skip content or come back out leveled for the quest later solo. Multiplayer should be allowed in an MMO.

GreySix

AinGeal wrote: »

In light of the quotes of Greysix seen above...

I was married for 6 years.

Yes, if she is doing things wrong, you should point it out.

That is all stuff that one of my personal stalkers dredged forth from an older closed thread, so I'll not address it here.

But thanks for the marital advice, but as I've been married fifteen years and know my wife pretty well by now, think I'll pass on it.

GreySix

Hnightblazenub18_ESO wrote: »

I haven't skipped or failed to complete any quests at the appropriate level thus far. Get your facts in line before you attack people. I had issues with Halls of Torment, but I didn't leave until I figured it out. I don't believe in skipping content or out leveling it and coming back when completing it gets you nothing. This is why I also believe that all content should be multiplayer allowed, so when I'm playing with friends I'm not forced to skip content or come back out leveled for the quest later solo. Multiplayer should be allowed in an MMO.

Believe he was likely addressing me, being among the group of personal stalkers who hounds me from thread to thread.

My wife and I are ignoring the main quest line, until/unless it is modified to allow at least cooperative play.

Melian

GreySix wrote: »

Melian wrote: »

[snip pieces from scattered threads]

See the OP in THIS thread, vice dredging up others. My recommendation in THIS thread allows for scaling difficulty of instances, so everything else you posted is moot.

Now, I'll allow you to retort to recommendations brought forth in THIS thread.

You said "anywhere... anywhere". Sorry bub.

And yeah, if tuning content for people who "have ZERO - NADA - NO desire to improve in a game like this, master mechanics, or figure out what we're doing wrong" isn't trivializing it, nothing is.

I'm opposed to that even as an option. As it is now, if you have the title/skill lines/are in VR zones, it means you were able to complete the content at the intended difficulty. For those of us who think of a game as a game (and a multiplayer game, where people are comparing, competing and cooperating), not a novel or a movie, that matters.

Melian

GreySix wrote: »

[*] I'd posted that we'd be willing to scale such instances IAW the number of extra players. MMOs have been doing that for more than a decade, so it isn't rocket-science

I said the same, so why do you keep arguing? I guess you didn't really mean it.

GreySix

Melian wrote: »

You said anything, anywhere. Sorry bub.

Ah, my personal stalker is back.

Melian wrote: »

And yeah, if tuning content for people who "have ZERO - NADA - NO desire to improve in a game like this, master mechanics, or figure out what we're doing wrong" isn't trivializing it, nothing is.

That's your opinion, and you're welcome to it. You're an elitist - that's plain. Many (if not most) players are not - and they play these games not for the grueling challenge, but to have fun.

Melian wrote: »

I'm opposed to that even as an option.

Yes, we know. You're opposed to any choice that doesn't coincide to your own preferred style of play. You've made it abundantly clear that you've no logical reason for such opposition.

GreySix

Melian wrote: »

GreySix wrote: »

[*] I'd posted that we'd be willing to scale such instances IAW the number of extra players. MMOs have been doing that for more than a decade, so it isn't rocket-science

I said the same, so why do you keep arguing? I guess you didn't really mean it.

Didn't bother to read my OP in this thread, before dredging up quotes from old closed threads, eh?

Melian

Ysne58 wrote: »

Making it easier does not necessarily trivialize it.

Melian wrote: »

if tuning content for people who "have ZERO - NADA - NO desire to improve in a game like this, master mechanics, or figure out what we're doing wrong" isn't trivializing it, nothing is.