Request: Allow Grouping in Currently "Solo-Only" Instances

AinGeal

Epona222 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

You can have grouping in the current solo only instances when current group and public instances get a solo option.

If you want to be forced to solo, there are plenty of single player games available. This is supposed to be an MMO.

MMO does not mean that it should require grouping up to complete game content.

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

Official ZoS statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

However single player in MMOs is quite viable, especially in what is called 'player vs environment' gameplay.

The MMO genre has much more to offer than just the option to group up with other players. Things like a much better virtual economy that can only be had when many players are involved within the same game world. There is also the fact of the game world carrying on without you there (although all games do a poor job of this since the game worlds that are designed are frozen).

Massive Multiplayer does not equal 'needing to work with others to complete content'. Massive Multiplayer Online means that the game requires online access to play (as opposed to a local network) and that the game is capable of allowing a large number of players to play the exact same game. To all be a part of the same game world.

The whole, "the second M stands for Multiplayer and so the game should require you to have to work with or against others to complete" is a misconception based on an assumption going back to the single player games that had a multiplayer option. Think Street Fighter for a simple example where the game is solo (fighting against the AI), but you can also fight against someone else.

Epona222

AinGeal wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

You can have grouping in the current solo only instances when current group and public instances get a solo option.

If you want to be forced to solo, there are plenty of single player games available. This is supposed to be an MMO.

MMO does not mean that it should require grouping up to complete game content.

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

Official ZoS statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

However single player in MMOs is quite viable, especially in what is called 'player vs environment' gameplay.

The MMO genre has much more to offer than just the option to group up with other players. Things like a much better virtual economy that can only be had when many players are involved within the same game world. There is also the fact of the game world carrying on without you there (although all games do a poor job of this since the game worlds that are designed are frozen).

Massive Multiplayer does not equal 'needing to work with others to complete content'. Massive Multiplayer Online means that the game requires online access to play (as opposed to a local network) and that the game is capable of allowing a large number of players to play the exact same game. To all be a part of the same game world.

The whole, "the second M stands for Multiplayer and so the game should require you to have to work with or against others to complete" is a misconception based on an assumption going back to the single player games that had a multiplayer option. Think Street Fighter for a simple example where the game is solo (fighting against the AI), but you can also fight against someone else.

Mess of quotes here, but I think I have bolded the part I am responding to (EDIT: actually no, the quote is too long for the part I thought I had bolded to show up in the window, I think this is one of the most bizarrely long responses I have ever had on a message board.)

NO. No-one here, has said that grouping should be forced. We have said that people shouldn't be forced to solo. Thank you for regurgitating a statement from Zenimax, but it's as if you didn't read what the actual thread was about!

We all want to play the way we want to play - for some of us that means grouping, for others it means going solo. All we want is for there to be no forced solo quests because this is an MMO.

I'm really confused as to how you think your massive quote is solving anything, to me it just looks like you misjudged what the thread was about. Sorry.

Darastix

AinGeal wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

You can have grouping in the current solo only instances when current group and public instances get a solo option.

If you want to be forced to solo, there are plenty of single player games available. This is supposed to be an MMO.

MMO does not mean that it should require grouping up to complete game content.

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

Official ZoS statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

However single player in MMOs is quite viable, especially in what is called 'player vs environment' gameplay.

The MMO genre has much more to offer than just the option to group up with other players. Things like a much better virtual economy that can only be had when many players are involved within the same game world. There is also the fact of the game world carrying on without you there (although all games do a poor job of this since the game worlds that are designed are frozen).

Massive Multiplayer does not equal 'needing to work with others to complete content'. Massive Multiplayer Online means that the game requires online access to play (as opposed to a local network) and that the game is capable of allowing a large number of players to play the exact same game. To all be a part of the same game world.

The whole, "the second M stands for Multiplayer and so the game should require you to have to work with or against others to complete" is a misconception based on an assumption going back to the single player games that had a multiplayer option. Think Street Fighter for a simple example where the game is solo (fighting against the AI), but you can also fight against someone else.

Removing the forced solo quests dosent jump straight to your required to group. There is a middleground, grouping for a quest or running it solo should be left up to the players doing it.

Hnightblazenub18_ESO

I agree and that is why no one is saying that the the game should REQUIRE you to group. All we are saying it that in this type of atmosphere "MMO" most people come to play with friends and family or people we meet and socialize with online and that "FORCED" solo content is unacceptable. When I am playing with friends and family I don't want to "Skip over Content" because I'll either forget about it or at least be overpowered and out leveled for it by the time I come back. I also don't want to spend hours trying to figure out how to solo a quest, wasting my time frustrated because either I beat it hours before my partner or they hours before me where one of us is upset from waiting on the other and the other is upset for making the other person/people wait. I spent a good 3 hours trying to solo the "Halls of Torment" quest. I actually have a RL friend that comes out to the house once a month and games with me, had I spent these 3 hours making him wait, or spent 3 hours completing it only to find out I had to sit and wait for him, both of us would have been extremely IRATE at the situation by the end. The only option we would have is to skip the level 30 quest and come back to solo it later when we weren't gaming together, leaving us overpowered and out leveled for the quest to mean anything, then we'd be irritated with that situation. In an MMO this should not ever happen. Again no one wants it to be 100% must group, we don't even want the difficulty changed, we just want to be able to game "TOGETHER".

Sigourney_Frost

There are ways to make these solo dungeons scale to more than one person, I agree that it should be implemented in the future.

I for one like to do a lot by myself, but sometimes I want to add someone to my group and play with them. Most of us want the choice.

This is the first MMO that I've played that feels like single person game, and I am not complaining about that, but I would like the choice, and not just for group dungeons.

This game is awesome, but it still has room for improvement.

Hnightblazenub18_ESO

Darastix wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

Epona222 wrote: »

AinGeal wrote: »

You can have grouping in the current solo only instances when current group and public instances get a solo option.

If you want to be forced to solo, there are plenty of single player games available. This is supposed to be an MMO.

MMO does not mean that it should require grouping up to complete game content.

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want. You’ve probably heard us say it or experienced it for yourself: equip any weapon, wear any armor, choose from a myriad of skills, pick your role, make choices in quests, ignore certain quests and just explore, etc. The idea is that these choices tie you more to your character, and respect that you might want to play differently from one day to the next. Many times, I’ve heard people discuss how they like to solo, others like to “raid,” and another group likes to PvP, so we know gamers never fit into neat categories.

However, many people who have become attached to their character want to see how their character would perform in a variety of situations or game modes. This is part of the reason we don’t have PvP gear and PvE gear, and also the reason we embrace being able to pick and max out more than a handful of skills. We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

Official ZoS statement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massively_multiplayer_online_game

However single player in MMOs is quite viable, especially in what is called 'player vs environment' gameplay.

The MMO genre has much more to offer than just the option to group up with other players. Things like a much better virtual economy that can only be had when many players are involved within the same game world. There is also the fact of the game world carrying on without you there (although all games do a poor job of this since the game worlds that are designed are frozen).

Massive Multiplayer does not equal 'needing to work with others to complete content'. Massive Multiplayer Online means that the game requires online access to play (as opposed to a local network) and that the game is capable of allowing a large number of players to play the exact same game. To all be a part of the same game world.

The whole, "the second M stands for Multiplayer and so the game should require you to have to work with or against others to complete" is a misconception based on an assumption going back to the single player games that had a multiplayer option. Think Street Fighter for a simple example where the game is solo (fighting against the AI), but you can also fight against someone else.

Removing the forced solo quests dosent jump straight to your required to group. There is a middleground, grouping for a quest or running it solo should be left up to the players doing it.

A-PERFECT RESPONSE 100% CORRECT!!!

aleister

From the ZOS statement:

One of the core philosophies of The Elder Scrolls Online is to allow you to play the way you want....

[snip]

...We’ve tried to avoid the danger of compartmentalizing and labeling certain players by acknowledging that circumstances change for people day-to-day. On Monday you might feel like playing alone, and Tuesday you might feel like working with friends on a dungeon. Whatever your motivation, you should be able to go do the thing you want without a lot of barriers.

And yet the design of the game completely flies in the face of this. You're frequently forced to solo and people are complaining about being forced to group for higher level content. There are barriers everywhere.

GreySix

Epona222 wrote: »

No-one here, has said that grouping should be forced. We have said that people shouldn't be forced to solo.

That is my stance, in a nutshell.

Bookwyrm

I actually have to agree. I usually like soloing in MMOs (at least for a while), but I also play the game with my husband. I had played through the first "solo-only" Fighter's Guild mini-dungeon thing by myself on a solo-character, not knowing that it was literally "solo-only." So when I suggested we run through it together the next time we logged on, only to find out that we couldn't do it together...well...I felt ridiculous. And he ended up rage-logging because he couldn't defeat Doshia alone (those blasted healing bubbles kept kicking his ass). I don't want to hear anything about "well he should have *insert suggestion here*" because that's not the point. The point is that we wanted to play the game together that evening and we were unable to do so due to a circumstance that could have been avoided by the *option* of grouping through the instance.

I like being able to solo such instances, but I don't think it should be forced. I understand it from the story-line point of view, but I think we can ignore the slight hit to immersion to allow friends and family to enjoy the game (in its entirety) together.

AngryNord

Monkeyshoeslive wrote: »

Solo ONLY instances have no place in an MMO

This

Epona222

Bookwyrm wrote: »

I like being able to solo such instances, but I don't think it should be forced. I understand it from the story-line point of view, but I think we can ignore the slight hit to immersion to allow friends and family to enjoy the game (in its entirety) together.

Spot on. I love the game but it makes no sense to be running round with 30 randoms all on the same quest then be forced into a solo instance even though you are grouped with someone you want to play the entire game with. People who want to solo it should still be able to do so, but splitting up a team in an MMO so they can all go beat a boss solo? It just doesn't really work that well, no matter how much you love the game!

Ysne58

I will repeat myself again. I prefer to allow grouping, even if only two people, over continued nerfing. Fixing the ones that are still bugged would also help.

Epona222

Also I don't really see it as something to prove yourself to do these things solo. Perhaps if you solo stuff you should get a badge or something.

But you know what, if I had a friend who wanted to play the game who was really a bit crap, but they were my friend and I want to play with them, why should I not be able to group with them and help them with the hard fights? We've been through everything else together, and now we can't work as a team on this?

Hnightblazenub18_ESO

As of right now the story arc of this game would have been a better TES VI "Soul Shriven" rather than part of ESO. It's an awesome story, just not set up atm for an MMO. That is of course imo...

Cogo

No!

Keep the solo main story line and maybe even add other Solo only events. It adds to your story.

I am a DK..who apperently are overpowered, and I did the mainquest that pops around lvl 30, at lvl 37.

I think I died 20 times before I got it right.

It adds flavour, story, you depend on you and gets to test your skills.

Maybe an option would be to be able to remove your character from the main story line. I dont think it would mess to much with the Lore, cause in Tamriel like in the world, there are all kinds of people and opinions.

Do NOT make it easier!

mndfreeze

Zenimax already said they were looking into the possibility of this or some changes to the solo only stuff. I wish I could remember where I saw it but it was either in a post similiar to this, or in a post about upcoming patches and people giving feedback on em and this was brought up.

p.hurst1b16_ESO

I agree with OP. The main and guild quests were a pita to do as I always play in a duo.

Darastix

Cogo wrote: »

No!

Keep the solo main story line and maybe even add other Solo only events. It adds to your story.

I am a DK..who apperently are overpowered, and I did the mainquest that pops around lvl 30, at lvl 37.

I think I died 20 times before I got it right.

It adds flavour, story, you depend on you and gets to test your skills.

Maybe an option would be to be able to remove your character from the main story line. I dont think it would mess to much with the Lore, cause in Tamriel like in the world, there are all kinds of people and opinions.

Do NOT make it easier!

This is not just about the difficuly,or lore,story, in fact i couldnt even tell what the story was since i just click pasted it. its about playing with freinds without interuptions from game systems. I'm also a DK who duel wields swords with a solid build, and to me the main story is easy, ive only died once during the entire main story up to 39, but id rather be grouped with freinds killing stuff nonstop.

Epona222

Cogo wrote: »

No!

Keep the solo main story line and maybe even add other Solo only events. It adds to your story.

I am a DK..who apperently are overpowered, and I did the mainquest that pops around lvl 30, at lvl 37.

I think I died 20 times before I got it right.

It adds flavour, story, you depend on you and gets to test your skills.

Maybe an option would be to be able to remove your character from the main story line. I dont think it would mess to much with the Lore, cause in Tamriel like in the world, there are all kinds of people and opinions.

Do NOT make it easier!

No one is saying make it easier. But you seem to be confusing it with a single player game. It is in fact a Multiplayer game, and all parts of it should be Multiplayer.

Sandmanninja

Honestly, screw 'getting to know your class' or 'dps check' or whatever else you want to call it. My wife heals and I tank. She HATES dps'ing. She will but why should she have to? She heals and she's great at healing. She balances the numbers - stats, gears, flasks, gear - and comes up with awesome combinations that keeps everyone alive.

It's horse hockey that she has to do solo bosses on her own. Hell, it's horse hockey that I can't have my healer with me! Saved me wiping a few times. Star Wars TOR mmo got it right.

mndfreeze

IMO all quests in an MMO should be able to be done in a group, but I understand why they did it the way they did for this. Zeni did state somewhere that they were looking into this exact issue though so there isn't really a need for yet another thread about it. Just sayin.

LarsS

I want an option to do the solo dungeons in groups. Presently some of solo dungeons are quite difficult, for me at least. The alternative is to reduce the difficult, which would I think would be the wrong way to go.

Lodestar

Cogo wrote: »

No!

Keep the solo main story line and maybe even add other Solo only events. It adds to your story.

I am a DK..who apperently are overpowered, and I did the mainquest that pops around lvl 30, at lvl 37.

I think I died 20 times before I got it right.

It adds flavour, story, you depend on you and gets to test your skills.

Maybe an option would be to be able to remove your character from the main story line. I dont think it would mess to much with the Lore, cause in Tamriel like in the world, there are all kinds of people and opinions.

Do NOT make it easier!

Your at it again!

Why in all twelve hells do you need to force how YOU want to play on others? Nothing is stopping you solo in the situation being requested, and getting all the immersion and uniqueness, you seem to make up as you go along, that devs have done things.

@babylon do you remember that guy on TSW forums, who kept trying to press his agenda of making TSW a real life simulator, and crusaded against general chat for weeks? Getting serious deja vu here.

daemonios

When I read the OP I was thinking, like others here, that solo quests are useful to test your build. However, some of the posters have changed my mind.

The game should be inclusive, rather than aimed at "pro" players. Reality checks for your build are useful, but maybe they could be put somewhere other than the main questline (duelling, anyone?). The fact that many people (myself included) enjoy having SOME solo quests doesn't mean that everybody should be forced to play the same way, and as demonstrated in this discussion there are valid reasons for people to want to group up (people who always play together and don't appreciate being forced to break the group, people with physical limitations, etc.)

daemonios

Cogo wrote: »

Do NOT make it easier!

Allowing group for current solo quests does not make it easier if you still choose to solo. Making it easier is nerfing Doshia for everyone, which was done already. I had a kick fighting her back in Beta because I had to figure out the strategy and stay alive during the fight. On my templar it was a 15 minute battle because I didn't have AoE to blast the orbs and many got to Doshia and healed her right back. I understand some people don't want to be forced to solo a hard boss, so just allow grouping instead of nerfing it.

tlainya_ESO

I think they should allow the solo only quest to be done as a duo. I've done all of them solo but I know there's lots of people who struggle with them. Allowing a partner to help would be good for people who enjoy playing with a friend or family member. Some posters have talked about the main and guild quests as a skill check which is true to a point. There are other factors like bugs, horrible ai on some of the npcs (Lyris especially in my experience), and lag issues. If someone could come and help it might help the player struggling with their tactics and skills. Maybe if I'm helping a friend I see they need an aoe skill on their bar, or they need to position better or a host of other issues that you don't necessarily know before you play with them. I'd rather see someone get helped through a quest than to see the bosses get nerfed like Doshia was. Fewer frustrated players =more players in game.

Ysne58

Yep. These forced solo quests can and should be duo groupable. More nerfing would take away the enjoyment from those who love the hard solo content. I would prefer them to be happy too.

llXll

yer my wife n i want the same thing, nothing more confusing (at first) and irritating to be happily skipping along together and enter a dungeon and only see head markers.. duo grouping would be about fair on solo dungeons..

AinGeal

Epona222 wrote: »

Mess of quotes here, but I think I have bolded the part I am responding to (EDIT: actually no, the quote is too long for the part I thought I had bolded to show up in the window, I think this is one of the most bizarrely long responses I have ever had on a message board.)

NO. No-one here, has said that grouping should be forced. We have said that people shouldn't be forced to solo. Thank you for regurgitating a statement from Zenimax, but it's as if you didn't read what the actual thread was about!

We all want to play the way we want to play - for some of us that means grouping, for others it means going solo. All we want is for there to be no forced solo quests because this is an MMO.

I'm really confused as to how you think your massive quote is solving anything, to me it just looks like you misjudged what the thread was about. Sorry.

Misjudged what the thread was about? It looks to me this thread is about turning the solo only instances into being able to do them as a group.

To explain my first reply a bit better, this game has "dungeons" (crypts, Dwemer ruins, Ayleid ruins, etc.) for which you click on a door and go through a loading screen. The content inside all but a few are easy enough to solo. Despite nobody being around when I enter, the moment I get inside, others begin to show up inside. You end up with half a dozen players all racing for the end. Competing for any nodes and chests along the way.

I may not be in a group with them but that doesn't mean I'm playing it solo. The fact that the mega server throws me in with others to tackle the same bit of content at the same time is basically the mega server shoving group play down my throat. Yet when I voice this problem, I get nothing but "this is a MMO, go play a single player game". Hence my big long post quoting sources. To debunk that misconception that people seem to have about MMO equaling 'needing a group of players to be able to handle the content'.

You want to be able to group up for this game's version of a 'personal story'? Fine, as long as it's just the option you're looking for and not wanting the only solo instanced content turned into a dungeon like Fungal Grotto (an instanced dungeon needing a group to complete). However, if they are going to make such a change then I want all the other 'public dungeons' to have the option to be private.

Requiemslove

Man, I still aint done the doshia fight [main story lv 30 one] on my Templar, she's a few levels higher now but I feel Lyris would let me down yet again by being useless and not actually fighting Doshia. For me this is the issue. I have no real problem with them allowing main story quests to be done via grouped, so long as the difficulty for grouping is ramped up significantly. [talking higher HP pools on bosses here, not specifically higher boss damage, if a boss can 2 shot you in solo, should be able to still 2 shot you if grouped] Grouping should only mean you have others along for the fight and should not automatically make the encounter easier. Thus is a mistake many MMOs have made, allowed hard content to be done as a group but not fixed said content so its not as specifically challenging for a group as it is solo. This means if you go into a instanced scenario as a group, all enemies should be tougher, harder to take out, including the boss. Anyway, going back to that specific encounter and ally AI in general...it needs to be a LOT better.