Area-of-Effect Abilities - Maximum Target Cap Clarification

Xsorus

byghostlightrwb17_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I'll pose a question for you, and the ZoS developer team.

Why do you have AoE caps in place at all?

because they become ridiculous overpowered, and having them spammed over and over leads to very boring and unremarkable and unskillful game play. look at every single Lets Play done by Force on youtube and multiple that by an army in PVP. Love his videos but that AOE gameplay was cringeworthy.THAT.

As opposed to just simply outnumbering and zerging your opponent down with them having no way to stop you?

Or stacking ontop of one another in a giant ball to avoid being hit by AoE's, which every MMO with a cap has done?

You think those are more skillful then a Zerg having to watch for incoming while being grouped up so they don't get wiped?

I guess Panning is hard now.

ChairGraveyard

AoE Caps Enable Cheating!

This is a video of a group abusing/exploiting AoE caps to make themselves invulnerable to damage, and is precisely what we have to look forward unless this stupid lazy design is fixed.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=0hyK9tLzG5o

Milky

Anyone who has voted on anything in their life will quickly realize that within about the first 200-500 votes, an outcome has been determined, and it will only change by a percentage or 2 in the end. With that in mind, you can look at that poll and see that it's winning by a landslide with an extremely large amount of vote data. If you think over 3,000 votes is an insignificant number then you know very little about polling. It's not even close, and it won't change in any kind of way that would matter.

Are there issues that for PvE that are not issues for PvP and vice versa? Yes, there is in every game that mixes skills and systems used in both PvE and PvP. Things will inevitably need to be balanced separately for PvE vs PvP. You will never reach a perfect balance where they can share the same exact data numbers and mechanics.

I believe, as many others do, that AoE capping this game will completely destroy the PvP AvA population. Most hardcore PvP players bought ESO because it was going to avoid the zerg emphasis of other RvR games. Those players, will leave. Why should they play a game with a subscription when they can play the same thing for free? I put over 4600 hours into GW2 on the Tier 1 server Blackgate, and over 95% of that time was spent in WvW AvA RvR. With the AoE capping style, tactics are severely diminished in their effectiveness, and as long as your zerg is semi-competent (No HS diploma or GED required), if you have larger numbers you will win almost every engagement, regardless of skill.

There are at least a dozen different ways to balance out these skills so that they can still promote skilled play and reward the better group, regardless of group size (within reason) These have been stated multiple times by myself and others, both here and in other threads. It's becoming overkill.

AoE capping is the cheap, easy, dirty way to try to balance skills. Blanket changes are never the answer, because it will really hurt skills that were already functioning fine.

Very disappointed with the response to this topic from ZO.

Feel free to visit the poll for more details and explanation about why AoE capping is the worst possible idea for PvP AvA: http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/88049/do-you-think-there-should-be-an-aoe-cap/p1

Jnaathra

If this was some big bait and switch conspiracy then people would have been asking in droves before the launch. They were not. Stop grasping at straws to support your pathetic wants and desires.

prana33b14_ESO

Jnaathra wrote: »

If this was some big bait and switch conspiracy then people would have been asking in droves before the launch. They were not. Stop grasping at straws to support your pathetic wants and desires.

They were. Stop being ignorant.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/132215-dec-18th-4pm-est-exclusive-qa-with-zenimax-studios-pvp-developer-brian-wheeler/

ularis

I think all AOE skills should be in PVP reduced damage for 70% and Snaring,stuning etc AOE should be removed this fix everything AOE spam is always bad idea and ruin whole PVP fun and to fix everything in PP n teso Zeni need to give hardcore PVP players Smaller scale PVP zone,and come on.. Duels ? where ? why ? Rly worst idea don't give Players test spec on 1v1 ...

valkaneer2b14_ESO

Jnaathra wrote: »

If this was some big bait and switch conspiracy then people would have been asking in droves before the launch. They were not. Stop grasping at straws to support your pathetic wants and desires.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/132227-response-to-information-from-the-eso-pvp-qa/page-2

Wow what do you see there???

RivenEsq

I am flat out offended that the development team thinks we are so foolish to believe what they are trying to sell us here, in this post.

This game was in Alpha and Beta for over a year before it launched. Don't you think, in all that time, that these testers with a relatively LIMITLESS API, would have seen that there were caps on certain abilities?! Much less all of them.

Or, the more likely explanation, that there were, in fact, NO caps and that they are LYING to us, the playerbase, in order to see if we'll keep our subscriptions.

The developers were so impressed by a keep defense by a small number of players against a massive force (6 on 60) in the beta that they wrote a lorebook about it in the game! Well, that sort of defense will never happen again. Those players won't be able to damage or kill that group of 60 and the keep will be lost.

Contrary to popular belief, we, the populace of your game, are not stupid. We are not buying into these lies that you are spinning that there were merely 5 abilities that were "not adhering to the cap"(No Bat Swarm? LOL), and many of us will be unsubscribing. You can't lie to your player base and expect them not to notice.

That poll represents a serious level of statistical significance. If you think otherwise, you know nothing about polling or statistical representation of a population. Maybe they'd like a poll of how many people are unsubscribing because of this BS? Maybe that money being pulled out of their wallets will "have statistical relevance".

Lava_Croft

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Jnaathra wrote: »

If this was some big bait and switch conspiracy then people would have been asking in droves before the launch. They were not. Stop grasping at straws to support your pathetic wants and desires.

They were. Stop being ignorant.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/132215-dec-18th-4pm-est-exclusive-qa-with-zenimax-studios-pvp-developer-brian-wheeler/

How is this 'asking in droves' and where exactly is explicitly stated that there will be no AoE cap?

prana33b14_ESO

Uhhh there were several questions asked about small group pvp being effective against bigger groups, whether numbers would equal a win, and the aoe. I already stated itt that the devs never gave a straight answer. You are about as good at reading as math and polling I guess.

ChairGraveyard

People seem to be missing the key thing here:

AoE Caps Enable Cheating.

I'll repeat:

AoE Caps Enable Cheating.

No other argument is necessary. There should not be a built-in mechanism to cheat in PvP.

Digerati

Maybe explain how AoE caps benefit the game?

Maybe explain why an AoE cap is a better or more viable solution to the problems with AoEs in AvA than the dozens of other (albeit, slightly harder to program) solutions presented?

spliffmaster2b16_ESO

Can you please explain the design philosophy behind AoE target caps?

Also Bat Swarm was not mentioned in this list. Is it already effected by the target cap?

valkaneer2b14_ESO

Lava_Croft wrote: »

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Jnaathra wrote: »

If this was some big bait and switch conspiracy then people would have been asking in droves before the launch. They were not. Stop grasping at straws to support your pathetic wants and desires.

They were. Stop being ignorant.

http://forums.elitistjerks.com/topic/132215-dec-18th-4pm-est-exclusive-qa-with-zenimax-studios-pvp-developer-brian-wheeler/

How is this 'asking in droves' and where exactly is explicitly stated that there will be no AoE cap?

WTF dude stop your trolling, read the damn post, even the guy that agreed with you that you quoted.. even that you got wrong.

ChairGraveyard

Digerati wrote: »

Maybe explain how AoE caps benefit the game?

Maybe explain why an AoE cap is a better or more viable solution to the problems with AoEs in AvA than the dozens of other (albeit, slightly harder to program) solutions presented?

Because it doesn't actually fix anything, and instead breaks PvP completely, because AoE Caps Enable Cheating (via stacking exploits).

Lava_Croft

valkaneer2b14_ESO wrote: »

WTF dude stop your trolling, read the damn post, even the guy that agreed with you that you quoted.. even that you got wrong.

Maybe you should read the thread first, since nowhere in that thread there is any statement about there being an AoE cap in place.

prana33b14_ESO

LOLZ Reading how does it work?

RivenEsq

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Maybe you should read the thread first, since nowhere in that thread there is any statement about there being an AoE cap in place.

"He didn't just say the keep could be defending by small groups, he said multiple times that small groups can beat larger groups in AvA anywhere as long as the smaller groups are more organized than the bigger groups."

Clearly, you can't read. A more organized smaller group being able to take out a group larger than them anywhere is the very definition that an AoE cap was never supposed to be in the game. If you can't extrapolate that, anywhere includes all of those places where you CANNOT place siege because it is too far from a keep or an objective. That is the definition of a smaller group being able to fight a larger group in the open field WITHOUT siege. You have a problem with 8 wiping a group of 40 if they were more organized? Well sorry. Go play GW2, because, in this game, that sort of occurrence is intended.

slander36

Two things:

1. In both of the elitist jerk links you put up you are trying to mislead everyone into thinking Brian Wheeler said something he did not. His definition (he put numbers to it) of a small group is 4, and a large group is 8-12.

We've been working diligently to find those sweet spot ratios and abilities to make it so small groups (4 players or so) can have the opportunity to take out larger groups (8-12 or more depending on the group make up) but it is a tough balance point to strike.

In this sense AOE cap or no, a "small" group can take out a "large" group. Also, he specifically mentioned that, no, a small group will not be able to take out a zerg.

That's not to say that 4 players can destroy a group of 24, but lower that number and add coordination vs. disorganization, and the chances of that do go up.

2. As self-selecting poll is NEVER statistically accurate. This poll was not a random sampling. There were no optional surveys sent out to 1000 players by Zenimax asking for their opinion. A link to the poll was put up from places that were more likely to support it with links in all caps such as

AoE cap? cast your vote asap! on PTS servers they are testing a AOE cap of 6, please vote NO!!!! to AOE cap!

That does not a statistically significant poll make.

prana33b14_ESO

I am not trying to mislead. I already stated IN THIS THREAD they never specify. Someone said nobody ever asked these questions to the devs before launch and I posted that as just one example.l2read

ChairGraveyard

slander36 wrote: »

Snipped irrelevant post

AoE Caps Enable Cheating.

That's all anyone needs to know to know they have no place in this game.

There should not be built-in mechanisms for cheating.

RivenEsq

slander36 wrote: »

AoE cap? cast your vote asap! on PTS servers they are testing a AOE cap of 6, please vote NO!!!! to AOE cap!

That does not a statistically significant poll make.

Except for the fact where my thread was titled objectively as "Do you want an AoE cap?" and the answers were simply yes or no. I provided my reasoning in a post attached to the thread as I had a right to in a discussion forum. Also, before that post ever saw the front page of Reddit, which means it had to be upvoted, mind you, The post in question already had 2000 votes where 90% said "No" to an AoE cap. If you are going to use a singular example as a justification for "bias", please do it so that it is actually significant to the results of the poll.

Whether you like it or not, 90% of more than 3,000 people think this is a bad decision and a good portion of those that voted "Yes" have voiced that they did so because they think some AoEs are too strong, indicating a need for balance and not a flat out cap. Given that, there is probably 5% or less of the population that actually wants a hard cap on AoE like the one that is being implemented as opposed to the nearly 90% that have firmly said "No". Stick that in your pipe and smoke it.

Lava_Croft

RivenVII wrote: »

Except for the fact where my thread was titled objectively as "Do you want an AoE cap?" and the answers were simply yes or no.

His point was not the title of your post, which was very clear and honest. His point was where and how there was linked to your post, in placed such as Reddit, with post titles like he mentioned. This completely skewed the results of your poll to the point where it's nearly meaningless. You are not directly to blame for this.

ChairGraveyard

Lava_Croft wrote: »

RivenVII wrote: »

Except for the fact where my thread was titled objectively as "Do you want an AoE cap?" and the answers were simply yes or no.

His point was not the title of your post, which was very clear and honest. His point was where and how there was linked to your post, in placed such as Reddit, with post titles like he mentioned. This completely skewed the results of your poll to the point where it's nearly meaningless. You are not directly to blame for this.

And you're known to be in favor of AoE caps because you want to abuse/exploit them to cheat in PvP.

Hardly credible.

Not to mention that the hive-mind on Reddit is PRO-CAP and PRO-CHEATING, so by your logic, the poll is even MORE VALID, not less (because Reddit obviously brigaded "Yes" responses, not "No" responses, derp).

RivenEsq

Lava_Croft wrote: »

His point was not the title of your post, which was very clear and honest. His point was where and how there was linked to your post, in placed such as Reddit, with post titles like he mentioned. This completely skewed the results of your poll to the point where it's nearly meaningless. You are not directly to blame for this.

I addressed that in my response. By the time that the post was linked there, the poll already received more than 2000 votes and was at 90% voting no. If anything, more people voted yes since his post than had before that. Additionally, regardless of the biased title, it makes it more polarizing, inadvertently encouraging people who do want an AoE cap to vote "Yes" in the poll as well. Either way, the point is moot and the results were statistically relevant long before that thread was made.

ValenWoody

prana33b14_ESO wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

You might want the check the total number of votes for that poll.

Over 3000. Real-life election polls where i live usually go with 1000-1200 to get a 95% accuracy(in a country with about 5 million voters).

So while it's a minority compared to the total game population, the results are certainly statistically significant.

math is tough

Well, I hate to break it to you two, but the poll, like most Internet polls, is completely useless because responders self-select.

Cuddler

While the fix is welcome, it's not nearly enough to address the issue with the excessive power of AOE abilities in EOS PVP. Some of them are widely considered overpowered for a reason, with Impulse and Bat Swarm being two prime examples. The current AOE power is discouraging the use of such standard PVP tactics as identifying priority targets and focus fire. The current imbalance in favour of AOE on live servers is so severe it makes these few abilities mandatory for a competitive PVP build. It also makes mindless AOE spam by far the best PVP "tactic", which no player who wants quality PVP experience - and not just AP farm - could possibly enjoy.

There are several potential solutions, not all may be equally good, but something has to be done:

- reduce the target limit selectively on some of the abilities;
- significantly reduce damage and weaken CC and healing effects on those abilities;
- make all AOE abilities that are not targetted on ground require a primary enemy target, with only that target taking full damage, and secondary targets only taking a percentage of it; this would also add a minimum awareness requirement on the part of the caster;
- opponents of AOE caps keep mentioning DAOC, so another option is to make EOS AOE more like DAOC AOE, in other words, add long activation times or channeling to the more powerful AOE abilities, during which the caster would need to remain stationary and vulnerable to interrupts.

taurrannub18_ESO

What we'd all like to see: No AE caps, and actual balancing of the individual skills and their effects, rather than lame artificial target cap effects. People have every right to be angry at this kind of balancing measures.

This is just plain lazy on the developer's part and detracts from the game, because you can rest assured there are unscrupulous players out there who will take advantage.

RivenEsq

ValenWoody wrote: »

Well, I hate to break it to you two, but the poll, like most Internet polls, is completely useless because responders self-select.

So do those that take online surveys from stores or companies. They choose whether to take it or not. By your logic, anyone who ever chooses to vote or take a survey for anything doesn't count because they had enough of an opinion to vote for or against something so it must be biased. The thread title was unbiased, meaning that both those who favor an AoE cap and those who were against it would visit the thread to chime in if they cared enough, regardless of which side they are on. The results of that poll mean a hell of a lot.

jdoe

OK guys, I won't share my opinion on the cap, as I don't PVP all that much anyway. That said, as a practicing engineer with a decent background in statistics currently engaged in designing stratified random samples for academic assessment, you guys really need to let the Poll stuff die (appeal to authority aside). Every time you say it's a statistically significant, I think I die a little inside.

That poll is the very definition of not statistically significant, for so many reasons it hurts my head. The smaller your sample, the more careful you have to be to select the sample. There is a reason pollsters are paid egregious amounts of money, and why you can't get thousands/hundreds of thousands of dollars just by opening your phone book and calling the first 1,000 names and emailing the results to the news stations. It's important that you understand such things, as throughout your life people are going to try to get you believe all sorts of things using bad statistics. Bad statistics are far worse than no statistics at all. Think about this. If I stand outside the football stadium and poll people coming in for a game on whether or not they feel that the funding for the athletic department is high enough, do you think my results would be the same as if I polled the entire student body?

So, it could very well be that 90% of people want no caps. My point is just that the poll does nothing at all to prove/disprove that claim.