Do you think there should be an AoE cap?

RivenEsq

With the news that an AoE cap has been patched into the PTS server, I am terrified for the future of this game. The change has been made that all player based AoE abilities affect a MAXIMUM of 6 players. This is a knee jerk development solution to a couple abilities that are a little bit too strong when hitting a large amount of targets.

The other recent MMO with large scale RvR style PvP was Guild Wars 2. They have an AoE cap of 5 players. In GW2, it is about stacking up your force into a ball as tightly as possible because you can only hit 5 people out of 40 with your AoE meaning that a smaller group will never be able to realistically take on a larger group. This combat system made it so that you were most efficient in running in a huge group because positioning no longer mattered. You could stand in all the red circles you wanted and would never take damage if you had superior numbers. I pray that this is not the legacy of PvP gameplay that ZOS intends to perpetuate. It becomes less about positioning and playing smart and more about abusing and exploiting the game mechanics to be successful. That is not PvP.

The proper solution to this problem should be the independent balancing of the utility, damage, radius, and duration on AoE abilities and not a complete rework of the system.

I also feel that it is more than just a little dishonest that the developer notes for the patch say, "Fixed an issue with several area-of-effect abilities where they could erroneously hit an unlimited number of targets." There was NEVER an AoE cap in this game since Alpha and this is a slap in the face to the customers who subscribe to this product that they tested extensively and previewed for over a year. You can't pull the wool over our eyes and pretend like this was "intended". What are you thinking, ZOS, that you can make a sweeping game change such as this, but are too scared to even announce what you are really doing and try to hide the truth behind phony patch notes.

We cannot allow this change to go live. It is quite possible the worst decision that could be made with regard to gameplay changes. I already played Guild Wars 2 for two years and I've had enough of stacking as many people you can fit in a small area and using that to win. I want there to be skill and positioning involved. Honestly, if this change sees the live servers, I will be quitting the game.

SPEAK UP! We need to make our voices heard and that this change is NOT okay!

Nox_Aeterna

No

Nope , if they want , they can reduce the radius or just make the skill weaker , but it should hit* ALL targets.

I have no use for skills i cant trust to hit, which is the case here.

Honestly , this is one hell of a stupid change.

Haduis

No

I've made a few posts about this topic.

One thing I will say: vamp needs a nerf.

I see two types of arguments about the changes.

On one hand we have people (like myself) who don't like this change because it negates the importance of skill, positioning, timing, and teamwork.

On the other hand, you have people who do like this change, because in their opinion AOE abilities are overpowered.

AOE abilities have a direct counter. They aren't one hit "I win" buttons. You literally have to be within a small radius of the spells effect. Some would argue that spreading out or crowd control is a counter to this.

On the other hand, zergs have a counter. This counter is uncapped aoe abilities. If aoe abilities are given a cap then this counterplay disappears.

With that said, I haven't seen anything else that really screams overpowered to me (outside of vamp abilities). I've gotten caught with bad positioning and lived because I spread out from the clump as soon as I realized AOEs were being dropped.

If you and a dozen other people stand in range of 5 people spamming impulse, you should die. It isn't that hard to spread out. It isn't that hard to use crowd control.

Let me give you some perspective on my thoughts on the issue:

Pretend Bob plays a melee class. Bob only has melee abilities on his bar. I'm talking a bar filled to the brim with 7 meter range abilities. He has no gap closers, CC immunities, etc.


Now say Bob gets attacked by a bow nightblade. The nightblade has snares, knock backs, and ranged damage.

Bob tries to fight back, but he doesn't have the proper abilities on his bars. Every time he gets close, the nightblade gets away from him.

Bob dies, and gets upset. Bob thinks that ranged abilities need a nerf. He doesn't think that the way he plays the game needs to change, he's doing FINE. It's those NIGHTBLADES that are too overpowered, they need a nerf.

Now if Bob had some gap closers and crowd control on his bars, he would have had a chance. Just because Bob doesn't understand the counters to a specific playstyle doesn't mean that the playstyle is inherently broken, it just means that Bob needs to find a way to beat that playstyle.

PvP games, especially the best ones, rely on an ever-changing metagame. New strategies evolve to beat the "best strategies" that exist. B beats A, so B becomes popular. C beats B, so now C becomes popular. Just because something is difficult to counter doesn't mean it deserves a massive nerf. Only when strategies and abilities have no counter at all do they need to be nerfed.

I said it before and I'll say it again:

Area of Effect abilities have a direct counter (read: they can be beaten)

Spread out.

Don't stand close to each other and you obliterate the usefulness of AOE abilities.

Use crowd control. Have you seen what happens to these smaller numbers when they get crowd controlled, even for a few seconds? They get annihilated.

ecojakkrwb17_ESO

No

As far as I'm concerned if 10 guys are standing in a giant ring of fire then 10 guys should take damage. Seems like common sense. If this is a change made because of a few skills being Over-Powered then they should just weaken those skills.

Cydone

No

Well the change ISN'T guaranteed to go through(considering it's in the PTS patch notes), it is important to discuss it. I think that, if anything, the damage should be reduced. Not limit the amount of targets they can hit.

Milky

No

Absolutely not. This will force tight stack blobbing as the only successful meta. Look to GW2 and see what AoE cap did to it. Certain skills need retweaking, the AoE system as a whole, does not. Some skills are not even very good aoe, now you limit them to a cap and they are completely useless. Don't punish every class and build in the game just because a few people have been abusing the system... DKs.

The main skill I've seen as an issue is talons, what's the solution? How about using our dodge ability makes us immune to immobilize for a short duration? We already stun breaker and become immune, why not something similar for dodge?

The issue is not an AoE cap. It's specific skills mechanics. I will not pay a sub for this game if it goes the route of AoE cap. I can go back to GW2 and play that for free if I want to play in that style. I bought ESO because it's different.

RivenEsq

No

Nerfing individual abilities is the answer, not single-handedly destroying all AoE ability's use in PvP.

surge914b14_ESO

No

If there's an area then I believe it should hit all within the area. Unless it says it hits x number of players and no area indicator comes out but for the most part if it shows an area indicator then I believe it should hit those within the area.

Ramanadjinn

No

This same crap all but ruined GW2 PVP

Elhanan

No

AoE cap will result in the same terrible PvP experience of GW2 where the zerg always wins. @ZOS, please no AoE cap.

Disharmony

No

No

For god-sakes if this happens PvP will die in my eyes. It's bad enough that at the moment most PvP is taken place in lag intense zerg vs zerg battles. Touch the abilities instead of ruining how they work. Don't see how zerg vs zerg will keep people entertained for an extended period of time. Small teams are much better.

Grishnakk

No

I really hope this change doesn't come into effect. IMO I totally agree with the OP that it will ruin the RvR.

I agree certain skills need tweaking as some AOE skills in their current iteration are a bit over the top but to blanket nerf AOE to a cap just ruins any type of tactics and positioning advantages that organised groups can use to counter zergs.

I don't want another death-ball-blob to win like we had to do in GW2 to be effective.

dcorsiukb14_ESO

No

Seriously? Cap the AE? Because a few people cry about it then use a shotgun approach? I don't even know what to say...

LordNowe

No

Not only will it ruin RvR, but I have a feeling this would ruin aoe tanking completely. The amount of dungeons were "Zerg" spawns are available are...oh yeah, all of them. We're talking zergs of more than 6 enemies at any given time. Why should these AoEs cap out at 6 targets maximum when there are several times when 6 targets is only a half or a quarter of the size of the enemy legions? There isn't a reason.

Visur

No

Dark Age of Camelot doesn't have cap on AoE and still is the best RvR game from all time.
Guild Wars 2 have cap on AoE and the game could be considerate as the worst RvR game ever.
Make your choice…

ritsuko

No

If this change makes ESO PvP similar to GW2, then we're all leaving the game.

RivenEsq

No

ritsuko wrote: »

If this change makes ESO PvP similar to GW2, then we're all leaving the game.

Could not agree more, Rits. Was my immediate reaction as well.

NordJitsu

No

Don't worry guys, the AoE cap doesn't affect Dark Talons.

Its only the skills that were well balanced that they wanted to nerf.

Honestly this is a disaster. Good luck taking out larger forces (zergs) with a small tactical group now.

The devs were so proud of the Chalamo event that happened in beta but we won't see that happening any more.

awkwarrd

No

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Everyone, please remember that these notes are specifically for the PTS, and are not the same notes you'll see on the live server. It's very likely that items will be edited and/or added in between the time it's being tested on the PTS, and when it will be available for everyone to play.

Lets hope that this is just a test and that it won't make it to the live patch.

It is unrealistic to see 10 people in an AOE fire circle and only 5 of them take damage.

Sypher

No

Don't go down the same ally other MMO's went down.

A limit on AOE hinders small groups potential. It removes realism from the battle field.

Say for example 12 players fall into an AOE bomb trap. 6 of them die, the other 6 don't die. So you're basically getting the server involved and adding unneeded "luck" to PvP. People survive because they weren't chosen to by the server? And people don't die because they were lucky not to be chosen to be target by the AOE? Where is the skill and player choice in that?

Instead of knee jerking everything. Fix the AOE skills that had some problems with them. Don't hinder everything.

I find this very strange as it is coupled up with the up coming release of Craglorn. Craglorn requires 12 players. Yet the devs will only allow up to 6 heals per AOE? What happens when the same 6 are automatically chosen and one player dies because the server managed to skip their heal twice?

Don't go through with this Zenimax! Listen to the voice of the community!

Xsorus

No

Nope, No AoE cap....If they end up adding this, I will stop playing

I wanted a game like DAOC, not a GW2 and its *** WvW

nimrod1984b16_ESO

No

DONT CAP, it ruins PVP..

Just fix f.e. BADSWARM and Banner (and that comes from an Corporal V10 Vamp DK)
both are a bit to strong in PvP against random zergs. (right only against randoms, cause if u are in a party u simply root and use fighter guild abilities against those Badswarm spammer and they DIE like flys.. only the random zergs dont get that and run into the vamp ulti - so dont know why now this shotgun fix comes at all.)

Impulse is maybe another one to look at - maybe lower dmg in PvP BUT dont CAP AOE for gods sake.

And also im out of this game if this change goes through, no point to coordinate with smaller groups as u will have 0 chance to wipe randoms zerg, i dont want to play the luck counter game (who gets hit by the attack and who not)

P.S: I also played GW2 RvR and it was ***, stopped playing it after 1month.. sad to see the devs here don´t know how to "fix" abilities instead they apply a fix which includes every single AOE in game and even effects PvE hard.

Malufus

No

this is an RvR ruining change

im playing this game for RvR.....if it goes thru I will not be staying..... I have no use for playing a GW2 clone....GW2 was horrible

Varivox9

No

the way I see it, if your afraid your going to be hit by a massive AoE....get out of the way.... Bam, done.... There is no need to ball up into a giant mass of flesh atm and I think most AoE's should only realisticly hit 2-3 players as long as they aren't playing *** style PvP....

Aracuan

No

Absolutely a deal-breaker for my continuing to play the game. Nothing else to say other than really.

Eris

Yes

I bet that the changes being made are more for the PVE side than the PVP side anyways. It just happens that it will effect PVP which is really backwards from the norm. Generally the PVE people suffer because of a change to balance PVP rather than the other way around.

They need to implement a multi-effect power scheme (like in City of Heroes, I know again with COH) but one power would have a different effect in PVP than in PVE. So if you used a power on a mob in a PVP zone it would be as if you were in PVE but if you used that same power on a player it would have different values. This way they could say 6 limit PVE and 12 limit PVP or such.

I really think that any game that has both PVE and PVP should build powers this way. That way they can nerf or buff stuff for PVP that doesn't effect PVE and such.

Trenith

No

I will unsub if this goes live. Period, nothing more to say about that.

Faulgor

No

Thanks for adding this poll, but I don't expect them to change it before it goes live. They mainly seem to listen to the media and professional gaming critics.

If they think they have to adjust AoEs, I'd rather see lower damage/duration or diminishing returns for multiple targets.

guillaume.trudelub17_ESO

No

This is the worst news I've heard in days. AoE cap is in the top 5 reasons I quit GW2 and literally in the top 3 reasons of why I got exited for ESO's PvP in the first place. The major part of my enjoyment so far in PvP (already Corporal) is this very lack of AoE cap.

If this come to pass, I don't see myself enjoying this game for any foreseeable future. For the first time I considering cancelling my subscription, should it be implemented.

AoE cap is an weak attempt at fixing broken AoE spells. MOST AoE spells in ESO are well thought out. There are very few long range ground target AoEs and those are usually either high cost or weak or require team mates for a split second synergy window to deal high damage. Most AoEs are radius centered at the caster, which forces player to take risk to deal massive AoE damage. Those AoEs are fantastic. Organized groups, small or large, can do wonders with them (unless Zenimax wants just people playing AvA solo in pick up groups rather than in truly organized groups...) and that's OK. In general, in ESO, single target abilities deal more damage than AoEs and that's how it should remain.

Better ways to fix overpowered AoEs that require NO AOE cap:
- Decreasing returns on additional targets. Make certain AoEs, especially the life-leeching one, have rapidly decreasing returns per additional targets, but with full AoE damage to all target (ex: Bat Swarm, Inhale) OR make Bat Swarm last for a shorter period OR prevent any ultimate generation while bat swarm is active (this would make a health leech nerf unnecessary).
- Reduce the radius of Pulsar/Impulse/Elemental Ring slightly or make it a conic ability rather than a radius one (so people have to aim at least a bit) OR make that skill have a 0.5 to 0.8 second cast time to increase the risk and prevent the spam.
- Give a counter to root spam, not a target cap. Make dodge-roll give CC immunity for a few seconds just like break free.
- Reduce the radius of the Templar's purge, so that people have to be closer to him, hence more vulnerable to incoming AoEs.
- Kill the Shooting Star morph of Meteor. Cost refunding per target hit on a large AoE is a bad idea to begin with. Find another morph idea.
- Make the Bolt Escape with stun morph be a very narrow corridor. Stunning whole groups by bolting through them is stupid (like sorcerers flipping camps alone by just bolting through honor guards and menders...)

rendolpheb16_ESO

No

AoE cap in PvP will kill the game. ATM, a group of 8-12 roamers really well organized can wipe 2x or 3x their number. This is just amazing. I'm not talking about the vampire garbage trick, but the fact that you can wipe mindless zerg if they don't play properly.

ZoS should not do the same mistake that GW2 did. An AoE cap in PvP will create a mass damage mitigation. My AoE burst will spread on 5-6 persons instead of all of them in my AoE. This is really bad my friends. AoE caps favorize the mass and not the skills.

Please ZoS use your common sense and don't bring AoE cap in PvP. Never. Don't even think about it, because it's a sin. You know it.

Xsorus

No

DAOC had the best counter to PBAE and AOE effects....Spreading the hell out.

It worked for 12 Years just fine...AOE cap however in GW2, Not so much...the biggest failure in that game.