Do you think there should be an AoE cap?

lao

Yes

RivenVII wrote: »

With the news that an AoE cap has been patched into the PTS server, I am terrified for the future of this game. The change has been made that all player based AoE abilities affect a MAXIMUM of 6 players. This is a knee jerk development solution to a couple abilities that are a little bit too strong when hitting a large amount of targets.

The other recent MMO with large scale RvR style PvP was Guild Wars 2. They have an AoE cap of 5 players. In GW2, it is about stacking up your force into a ball as tightly as possible because you can only hit 5 people out of 40 with your AoE meaning that a smaller group will never be able to realistically take on a larger group. This combat system made it so that you were most efficient in running in a huge group because positioning no longer mattered. You could stand in all the red circles you wanted and would never take damage if you had superior numbers. I pray that this is not the legacy of PvP gameplay that ZOS intends to perpetuate. It becomes less about positioning and playing smart and more about abusing and exploiting the game mechanics to be successful. That is not PvP.

The proper solution to this problem should be the independent balancing of the utility, damage, radius, and duration on AoE abilities and not a complete rework of the system.

I also feel that it is more than just a little dishonest that the developer notes for the patch say, "Fixed an issue with several area-of-effect abilities where they could erroneously hit an unlimited number of targets." There was NEVER an AoE cap in this game since Alpha and this is a slap in the face to the customers who subscribe to this product that they tested extensively and previewed for over a year. You can't pull the wool over our eyes and pretend like this was "intended". What are you thinking, ZOS, that you can make a sweeping game change such as this, but are too scared to even announce what you are really doing and try to hide the truth behind phony patch notes.

We cannot allow this change to go live. It is quite possible the worst decision that could be made with regard to gameplay changes. I already played Guild Wars 2 for two years and I've had enough of stacking as many people you can fit in a small area and using that to win. I want there to be skill and positioning involved. Honestly, if this change sees the live servers, I will be quitting the game.

SPEAK UP! We need to make our voices heard and that this change is NOT okay!

yes give an aoe cap and then give us a real CC system to avoid ppl stacking up to exploit the cap. long duration aoe mezz *** yeah!

rager82b14_ESO

Yes

Sorry but AOE cap is good for balance. It needs to happen

Gunsang

No

No AoE caps make it so that armies have to think. They don't think, they die. I appreciate this common sense. Please don't dumb it down because players can't think for themselves. Force them to think. Create something new--not something pathetic and old.

Xharek

No

UNDO or UNSUB

kynsieb17_ESO

No

No AoE cap.

IMO just add cast times (only 1s is enough) to strongest AoE spells so people can't spam them while moving around.This way you actually need some setup to land them well and enemies are able to interrupt their spells.

Ramanadjinn

No

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sorry but AOE cap is good for balance. It needs to happen

Removing all class skills from the game would be good for balance as well.

CrispZ

No

this would also effect healing too so say you want to heal someone that is low health there is no guarantee that it will heal him then it would be a game of chance and wouldnt be much point of a healer

frosth.darkomenb16_ESO

No

First and foremost, I do not thing that AOE should be nerfed. But this whole situation could be salvaged to make the game more interesting rather than shallower.

The solution put forward on the PTS is bad. A random 6 targets selected amongst all possible target isn't the way to go. AOEs should be reliable. You hit a zone, that zone is hit.

Also, when you think about PvP. Aoe are a great way of controlling zergs and encouraging them to spread out a bit more rather than just stack.

We unfortunately have no PvP collision detection, so there needs to be a way to create and control chokepoints.

As a compromise, if they still want to nerf AOE powers, they could use various other solutions for the different types of AOE:

• add a diminishing return on the amount of targets hit: where more than 6 targets are hit, every additional reduces damage/effects by 5% down to 50% of normal damage. 16 targets and up = 50% damage on all.
• Each target hit above 6 adds a resource debt. You pay the skill upfront, then have a DOT on the resource used of 1 tick per addintional target up to 10 seconds. It would feel like reduced regeneration after doing an exhausting task. (throwing a comet at an army)
• reduced impact away from the source of the AOE for example, healing springs, being in the center would give 100% heals, being on the edge would give only 50% heals. it would be well in line with the game being about positioning. Smart group member would need to be active to "earn" better heals.
• I believe there are more genre of diminishing returns I haven't thought about.

Note that the minimum damage/effect should never be less than 50% of the normal damage, and that those penalties start above 6 targets. This is to support the number they put forward (6) as it is how they have designed their PvE content. (groups of 4 and encounters with rarely more than 6 enemies)

Adding limitations the player can evaluate and "get a feel" of is added depth. It offers players with choices and create more situational awareness/positioning to the game, improving its strong points.

(Intially posted here: http://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/2410bn/aoe_nerf_compromise/)

RamzaBehoulve

No

PvE and PvP must be separated. Add the limit to PvE so you can continue making interesting fights without having AoE trivialize adds heavy fights.

Leave PvP as is and fix the imbalances on an individual skill basis. Vampire Emperor is a problem, but only because the ultimate cost can be lowered so much it becomes spamable indefinitely.

rager82b14_ESO

Yes

Sorry, but it is either AOE damage gets nerfed or a cap. I rather have a cap.

tsurotu

No

This is hilarious, it applies to all AOE, therefore AOE healing...

SIX target cap aaaaaaand lets introduce new TWELVE man trials. GG Zeni, nice thinking there.

Mephane

No

lao wrote: »

yes give an aoe cap and then give us a real CC system to avoid ppl stacking up to exploit the cap. long duration aoe mezz *** yeah!

Yeah, a long duration AoE mezz with a cap of 6 targets will be so helpful against a huge zerg blob stacking in one spot.

Imryll

No

ecojakkrwb17_ESO wrote: »

As far as I'm concerned if 10 guys are standing in a giant ring of fire then 10 guys should take damage. Seems like common sense. If this is a change made because of a few skills being Over-Powered then they should just weaken those skills.

One has only to contemplate the likelihood of such a cap being applied to NPC mages to see how ridiculous it is. "Everyone stand in the boss's AoE. He can only hit five of us!"

That said, I'm eager to hear about their plans to compensate classes whose major strength is their AoE with improved single-target damage. ;-)

IzualIT

No

It's a fix to help fingerless people who enjoy to zerg.

dr.frostb16_ESO

No

I support AOE being uncapped.

Garion

No

I will post here what I posted on reddit:

I am really disappointed by this. I have never played much PvP (or MMORPGs for that matter) but I am (was?) excited about what Cyrodiil could offer. A lot of people were complaining about the PvP, but I saw so many opportunities for an organised and disciplined group to have an awful lot of fun. This nerf will go against that and limit the PvP to the rather tedious button spamming that you see in uncoordinated groups / attacks.

amonengelb16_ESO

No

AoE cap was the reason why I left GuildWars 2. I don't see why AoE skills just don't get more risky or nerfed as they wish them to work.

Why don't get PBAoE skills as Impulse/Pulsar just a similiar PBAoE mechanic as DAoC's one along with diminishing returns scaling with the radius?

fouram4

No

I think ZOS should address problem abilities rather than have a blanket cap on all aoe.

It'd be much better for the longevity of the game to do a balance pass rather than going for the lazy way out of capping everything.

I hated what GW2 pvp became with the blob stacking and was so glad to see ESO was more like DAoC with the ability to destroy people that didn't pay attention to positioning.

Bat swarm + talons spam needs to be adjusted, not every aoe in the game.

The_Drexill

No

No, the game absolutely should NOT have an AoE cap. If we want to fix abilities that are too powerful, add a cast time... Why arent the dev's looking back at the game that WORKED? The other copy cats (and ESO is a copy cat) DID NOT WORK... stop looking at them!

lao

Yes

Mephane wrote: »

lao wrote: »

yes give an aoe cap and then give us a real CC system to avoid ppl stacking up to exploit the cap. long duration aoe mezz *** yeah!

Yeah, a long duration AoE mezz with a cap of 6 targets will be so helpful against a huge zerg blob stacking in one spot.

obviously the aoe mezz wouldnt be effected by the cap doh. healing shouldnt be eitzher, just dmg.

Devotion

No

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sorry but AOE cap is good for balance. It needs to happen

balance? lol wait what? more numbers win is not my idea of balance.

rager82b14_ESO

Yes

Devotion wrote: »

rager82b14_ESO wrote: »

Sorry but AOE cap is good for balance. It needs to happen

balance? lol wait what? more numbers win is not my idea of balance.

That sounds good to me? A army should win. No mmo is good at balance small scale pvp. So this is a fine change.

Semel

No

Why don't get PBAoE skills as Impulse/Pulsar just a similiar PBAoE mechanic as DAoC's one along with diminishing returns scaling with the radius?

Are you seriously suggesting nerfing impulse this way? PBAOE (!!!) ability with a medium radius centered around a caster and mediocre damage (200+ at vr2 and lvl4 ability) that makes a caster essentially aggro-magnet involving high risks and possibly quick death?

Yeah, OK..

SeeD

No

GW2 COME BACK in elder scroll next fix put a down state to revive yourself............ ***

etupa

Yes

How can I change my vote, you've conviced me all that this is a bad AOE update ?

lao

Yes

amonengelb16_ESO wrote: »

AoE cap was the reason why I left GuildWars 2. I don't see why AoE skills just don't get more risky or nerfed as they wish them to work.

Why don't get PBAoE skills as Impulse/Pulsar just a similiar PBAoE mechanic as DAoC's one along with diminishing returns scaling with the radius?

that could work. tho daoc was alot different. u had proper CC, u could actually interupt properly and the normal aoe nukes were nowhere close to the potency the aoes in eso have. only pbae was actually good dmg and that had a big falloff.

i dont rly want a cap on aoes but eso´s system is so flawed that its the only way of fixing it without changing just about everything. going back to a real interupt system (like DAoC) instead of having this style WoW-*** skills or bash that interupt would go a long way. every debuff and every sort of dmg should interupt and after uve been interupted there should be a timer of minimum 3 seconds before u can cast again. also dont allow spells with casttime to be casted while moving. introduce all that and a real CC system and aoes can be left uncapped.

but then the game would practically be DAoC. not saying that would be a bad thing as DAoC was the best and most competitive mmo ever made. problem with that is if u would introduce those mechanics to generation WoW they would just quit in the ten thousands cos its way too hard for them to handle. todays mmos dont even have 5% of the skill ceiling DAoC had.

Kingslayer

No

I just find it simpler by cancelling my sub saves me a few quid and when zenimax see how much of a mistake this is maybe they will see sense. Because whoever made this change needs slapping with a fish.

themdogesbite

No

No, capping AoE is not the way to go, if this goes trough zenimax will lose my subscription.

Ramanadjinn

No

Kingslayer wrote: »

I just find it simpler by cancelling my sub saves me a few quid and when zenimax see how much of a mistake this is maybe they will see sense. Because whoever made this change needs slapping with a fish.

AOE changes aside, I think we can all agree the folks at Zenimax need slapping with a fish either way.

ruzlb16_ESO

No

This is basically a knee-jerk reaction to the vamp ultimate thing wiping zergs. I've heard endless qq about vamp ulti spam, and when I told them to perhaps try spreading out or using anti-vamp skills, I was called an elitist. Frankly, I don't even think the vamp thing is overpowered - if you bunch up, AOE should kill you. Full stop. That's why real armies don't mass up in the face of artillery bombardment. The zerg had emerged as the major strategy over the last 2-3 weeks, and the vamp ultimate build came as a response to it - one on one, against a player with any real FG skill point investment, the vamp is toast. Of course, next time you're in a zerg group, check how many people have actually got Silver Bolts or Slayer - you may find that the people shouting loudest for nerfs are the ones who have gone 49/0/0, wear entirely mana gear, and have no skill points in any counters, Most of them aren't even aware you can break cc rather than standing put, or have 4 crafting skills maxed out and expect to be on a par with players who have invested their points in passives and morphs.
Uncapped AOE counters zergs, and without it there is no counter. Small organised groups wiping large disorganised groups is a sign of healthy PvP, as is the best zerg-wiping build being very vulnerable to 1v1. Sure, a few things needed tweaking - a 200+ ultimate skill should never be reduced to 40 or so; mist form should block all healing rather than allowing the AOE life steal to work; ultimates probably should not generate ultimate. But the actual tactic should not be removed, just made more difficult.
Not that it's as easy as we often hear. I can cast impulse 8 times before I'm oom; that won't kill a player with >1600 health. And if you don't have 1600 health in PvP when your softcap is 2500, then the problem is with your build, not my abilities. I can stack up with a couple of other players for big kills this way, but we need to co-ordinate properly and render ourselves vulnerable to mass AOE as well. If I'm spamming impulse in the middle of 16 players, then that's 16 guys who can hit me with impulse as well. The counters exist in-game, and those demanding nerfs simply don't want to use them; they have the 6 skills they like and expect those to be fine for use against everything.
As for the PvE argument, I kinda expect Craglorn mobs to have enough health to stand up to 12 200-ish AOEs for more than a few seconds, and to annihilate any non-tank in a single hit, so I don't see the idea of dragging them into an AOE spot working very well regardless of a cap.