Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Aaren wrote: »

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

I need this skill to be an effective tank in pve. As long as cost and duration arnt influenced there i couldnt care less.

But what about the tanks that have no AoE root?

All tanks have AoE root via guild.

Aaren

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

Aaren wrote: »

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

I need this skill to be an effective tank in pve. As long as cost and duration arnt influenced there i couldnt care less.

But what about the tanks that have no AoE root?

All tanks have AoE root via guild.

Do you mean the trap beast thing? I hadn't actually tried it, but thought it was single target immobilize. It also needs to arm so isn't really as viable. I use the mages guild aoe stun volcanic rune though. That was more what I was getting at, meaning that a DK isn't suddenly useless if their AoE root becomes less viable in PvE.

NordJitsu

Trap beast is garbage.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Aaren wrote: »

JoseDelgado17_ESO wrote: »

Aaren wrote: »

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

I need this skill to be an effective tank in pve. As long as cost and duration arnt influenced there i couldnt care less.

But what about the tanks that have no AoE root?

All tanks have AoE root via guild.

Do you mean the trap beast thing? I hadn't actually tried it, but thought it was single target immobilize. It also needs to arm so isn't really as viable. I use the mages guild aoe stun volcanic rune though. That was more what I was getting at, meaning that a DK isn't suddenly useless if their AoE root becomes less viable in PvE.

Yes volcanic rune is great for tanking if your class lacks an aoe snare it is still is dumb toabe complaining about DK root because basically your saying your group is bunched up and you let one person walk into a position to grab all of you and keep grabbing all of you without getting kitted or constantly knocked back.

Not only is that person putting himself in danger making this style high risk high reward he also some how got into wonderful positioning with 0 punishment apparently.

scy22b14_ESO

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO‌

Please don't post about mechanics if you don't understand them. You are factually incorrect.

CC break does nothing to any form of Immobilize.

I mean you guys are complaining about a soft CC that only should hurt melee since range can still attack and still a player must put himself in danger to grab a lot of players

So you're perfectly okay with the fact that one spammable ability can totally shut down every melee character in the game? Sounds legit.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO‌

Please don't post about mechanics if you don't understand them. You are factually incorrect.

CC break does nothing to any form of Immobilize.

I mean you guys are complaining about a soft CC that only should hurt melee since range can still attack and still a player must put himself in danger to grab a lot of players

So you're perfectly okay with the fact that one spammable ability can totally shut down every melee character in the game? Sounds legit.

you are acting like the person casting the spell isn't in danger the whole theme you guys are complaining about is high risk high reward a player has to put himself in a dangerous position to do the thing you are complaining about.

Also melee range is 5 meters so all the melee characters this player snared could easily each him unless they are on the rim of the spell

NordJitsu

@JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO‌

Please stop trying to turn this into a player issue. My guild is full of PTS vets and experienced MMO players. We've crowned Emperor multiple times. We know how to fight (keep an eye out for our 15 vs 100 video coming soon.)

This is a game mechanics issue. Please make sure to read the OP in full as it explains what is different about Talons compared to other CC.

If you're confused about particular mechanics and points, I'd be happy to explain things to you so you can learn.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Umm other CC are hard CC excluding slows, but knock downs stuns disorients are hard CC that literally make your characters action-less while slows and roots are soft CC where you can still retaliate.

The reason I'm arguing against it is you are complaining about a soft form of CC like it shutting down groups of players when the only CC doing that is negate magic

scy22b14_ESO

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO‌

Please don't post about mechanics if you don't understand them. You are factually incorrect.

CC break does nothing to any form of Immobilize.

I mean you guys are complaining about a soft CC that only should hurt melee since range can still attack and still a player must put himself in danger to grab a lot of players

So you're perfectly okay with the fact that one spammable ability can totally shut down every melee character in the game? Sounds legit.

you are acting like the person casting the spell isn't in danger the whole theme you guys are complaining about is high risk high reward a player has to put himself in a dangerous position to do the thing you are complaining about.

Also melee range is 5 meters so all the melee characters this player snared could easily each him unless they are on the rim of the spell

You don't have a sufficient enough grasp of the mechanics to support your argument. Explain to me how the DK is in any semblance of danger when squared off with another melee character in this scenario? You do understand that you cannot turn your character while immobilized, right? All the DK has to do is circle strafe around the rooted target and proceed to attack, ad infinitum.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Also X small group vs Y big group has no relation of skill it is usually just small group catching a pug in oil big ***

NordJitsu

@JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO‌

Please find a quote where I said Dark Talons is shutting down groups of players and that this is the problem with the skill.

I will wait.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

"So why is this different than other CC? "Encase" from the Sorcs Dark Magick tree is a good immobilize too right? Well the difference is that Encase is easy to avoid. If you get Encased, you can dodge roll to the left, right, or through the player. In order to reapply, they would have to quickly whip around and aim at you. Not so with Dark Talons. Just press a button, no player skill (or thinking beyond Pavlovian dog reflexes) is needed. You can use this to instantly blow through a players stamina, because two dodge rolls is going to leave them practically unable to block or CC break."

This is why your complaint is bad it is 8 meters 3 meters more then melee range if you are that close it is pretty avoidable if you keep your distance since you know the Dragon knight class doesn't have insane mobility.

Bunk

git gud

scy22b14_ESO

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO wrote: »

"So why is this different than other CC? "Encase" from the Sorcs Dark Magick tree is a good immobilize too right? Well the difference is that Encase is easy to avoid. If you get Encased, you can dodge roll to the left, right, or through the player. In order to reapply, they would have to quickly whip around and aim at you. Not so with Dark Talons. Just press a button, no player skill (or thinking beyond Pavlovian dog reflexes) is needed. You can use this to instantly blow through a players stamina, because two dodge rolls is going to leave them practically unable to block or CC break."

This is why your complaint is bad it is 8 meters 3 meters more then melee range if you are that close it is pretty avoidable if you keep your distance since you know the Dragon knight class doesn't have insane mobility.

That moment when you realize you're arguing with someone devoid a frontal lobe.

Slyfe

Is there videos out of this "tactic" in action? I'm just not getting a good visualization on how this is playing out on the battlefield.

captain_awesome

Right now in live it's super OP. Nobody can contest that.

If the PVE crowd can't accept it being changed make it have a different effect in Cyrodil. Reduce the range from 8m to 2m for starters, that's my major gripe with this skill. Secondly make it effected by immunities. Lastly collect all the tears from the DKs when this POS OP skill is nerfed, bottle those tears and sell it as an energy drink.

You will be rich.

Quaesivi

I'm pretty sure it would be much easier to just attack people from range instead of asking for a fix? Yes I'm a DK and no I never used Talons out of PvE.
If there would be immunity gained from immobile, first that would change the snare as well and second, being immobile would give you immunity from stun as well which is ridiculous.
Apart from Fiery Chain, all skills for DK are melee, if you are that close to any DK, you should be expecting to have a fiery death, that is a given, but every other class has more than just 1 measly skill for ranged attacks, and snares and stuns even that can help anyone to kite anything, only problem in all this is people getting too close to a DK, thats all.
I'm not saying its not OP or broken or any other thing, but you can still fight back within Talons and frankly, it hits for crap, its only use is keeping you in place against Standard which you can still roll out of.

Utherix

ITT: people acting like 90% of players in PvP aren't ranged.

If you want to get close to a player, use one of the charge abilities in the game, or fiery grip. That's what that's there for. Then use CC of your own. ts not like a root helps the enemy when they themselves are rooted.

If Burning Talons and Reflective both get nerfed, I'm not sure whats left for DK. All their abilities are short range, so they gotta be good at short range, and that includes taking the extra hits that come when you don't have a invisibility ability, or when you don't have a Teleport which lets you escape any enemy forever.

I see a future where, If Zenimax isn't careful with the nerf bat, DKs are all forced to go sword and board for short range survivability, and are restricted to merely debuffing their enemies rather than actually damaging them. DK DPS will be limited to DK Medium Armor stamina builds (single target), which I feel fall short of what other classes are capable of, who ironically seem to have more class synergy with melee than a class whose abilities are all melee ranged.

As a level 33 DK, I have two main damaging class abilities. Burning Talons and Flame Lash. I'm stacking light armor and I pretty much go oom for 1 minute after casting 6 lashes or 4 talons. I go oom because I have no abilities which recharge magicka. My defensive abilities also cost magicka. The good thing about Burning Talons right now is that its the only offensive ability that I feel is worth its magicka cost. In PvE, talons do the same damage as two flame lashes and hits any enemy, stopping them from hitting me so I can actually be in melee range without dying in 2 sec. Without it, I'm going to have to stack armor and defense like a tank, leaving me with only enough magicka to cast a few support spells. Boo.

Bring on the shield bashing meta game, I suppose.

Jarnhand

A couple facts:
- no ESO skill has a timer
- no ESO skill has a diminishing return
- ESO has a hidden/more real lifeish GUI, no combatlog etc

You cannot start to introduce timers or diminishing return how the game is right now, would lead to a lot of confusion and bug reporting ("my skills are not working" etc.) And the whole mechanism most likely isnt even in the game engine.

Neither can this be done just for one class, that would lead to people abandoning the class, and rerolling next fotm class.

DK is not the only class with CC.
Use CC break!
Do not bunch up!
Do not blame the DK class for how broken/exploited the Vamp is right now. Far as I can see most whining on Talons are due to Vamp DKs using exploits/broken skill mechanism.

First fix all bugs/exploits/not working skills/classes, THEN start with better balance. Also nerfing DK will heavy affect PvE.

And just a little head up; if suddenly DK the main tank in this game gets a nerf, you can say hello to FOTM Sorcs runing rampant in Cyrodiil. I know this from experience, I played DAoC for years. Only thing that kept the casters from facerolling everyone 24/7 in PvP was stealthers and high RR (PvP rank) melees.

NordJitsu

@Jarnhand‌

....again, for the 50th time, CC break does not affect Dark Talons.

Honestly guys, if you don't understand the mechanics you shouldn't be weighing in on mechanic balance threads.

Nehemia

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Another nerf x thread. Please just L2P

Against unavoidable ability? Right.

I play DK myself, and I am in agreement with OP. A immobilize skill that ignores all counter functions is way too powerful, not to mention it costs next to nothing.

captain_awesome

It's OP. When a small group of DKs using 1 cheap non-resistible skill can change the tide of a huge battle you know its OP. When all DKs in Cyrodil are doing the same cheap trick over and over - you know it's OP.

Nerf it now.

This sort of trash skill ruins the fun completely.

Slyfe

Dark Talons is exactly the zerg busting, forced to spread out, anti-clump together skill that people were rabidly screaming for in GW2. Now I can tell alot of people came from that game to this one because they're bringing their "Everybody stack" mindset with them and getting demolished because of it. I mean honestly if everyone was to spread out more would this skill even be an issue?

I really think the meta needs to develop a tad more before we know without a doubt this skill is the game changer it is right now and not just a wake up call for people to shake off their tendencies from other games.

I saw some video of it in action last night, but the 7-8 people he killed with it were standing right next to each other for no tactical reason, just sloppy gameplay. Had they simply chosen to not clump up it would have only rooted 3-4 and been no big deal.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

Nehemia wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Another nerf x thread. Please just L2P

Against unavoidable ability? Right.

I play DK myself, and I am in agreement with OP. A immobilize skill that ignores all counter functions is way too powerful, not to mention it costs next to nothing.

Roll

merfpmerfinton

I really can't understand how any reasonable adult can defend this ability.

Due to ESO's weird ass mechanics, Dark Talons is a cc ability that ignores cc immunity.
There is really nothing else that needs to be said and there is no argument that you can make to justify it. If you really can't understand how or why this ability is imbalanced, then your mother should have named you Lenny.

Jarnhand

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Jarnhand‌

....again, for the 50th time, CC break does not affect Dark Talons.

Honestly guys, if you don't understand the mechanics you shouldn't be weighing in on mechanic balance threads.

Ok, then we are discussing 2 aspects of it.
Of course if its CC break immune, it need to be fixed, but the ability itself (working correctly) does not need to be nerfed.
You are talking about a bug, but you make it sound like a OPed ability, two different things.

scy22b14_ESO

Jarnhand wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Jarnhand‌

....again, for the 50th time, CC break does not affect Dark Talons.

Honestly guys, if you don't understand the mechanics you shouldn't be weighing in on mechanic balance threads.

Ok, then we are discussing 2 aspects of it.
Of course if its CC break immune, it need to be fixed, but the ability itself (working correctly) does not need to be nerfed.
You are talking about a bug, but you make it sound like a OPed ability, two different things.

One of the options outlined in the original post, and the best option in my opinion, is to simply apply the 7 second immunity timer upon diving out of any immobilize. This would in no way directly nerf dark talons, but would indeed solve the entire issue.

Slyfe

Don't all roots work the same though? You can dodge roll out of them, but you don't get any immunity. So you want to change all roots then?

Navhkrin

So what? Look at sorcerers teleporting lightning fast no one can catch them

MoMoOG

I think 7 second immunity too root is too long. There definitely needs to be immunity after breaking root but I feel something around 4 seconds would be more reasonable. Root is not as powerful as stun.