Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

GravityX19

@ZOS_NickKonkle‌ @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌ Please look into this. Something needs to be done about this DK thing before Cyrodiil PvP turns into armies of DK's running around

Obscure

@GravityX19‌

Wait, Cyrodiil ISN'T armies of DK's running around spamming Talons and everyone else just pressing X to win?

Dunno about you, but I charge at groups of 20 with groups of 7 and all I need is Broken Talons and Standard of Win...and I'm not even emperor.

GravityX19

I have seen quite a few non DK's in there, but yea I would have to say it is mostly DK's

chrisub17_ESO104

hate to be a cliche, but seriously L2P.

Players that pay attention and take the time to work out counters, just don't have an issue with things like this.

I'm part of one of your average organized pvp guilds. When we get our asses handed to us, we take a break and figure out WTF happened and how to counter it.

When we first ran into a group of V10 DK's (vampire DK's at that) we got owned. That happened in exactly 2 fights. Now they are pretty much on farm mode.

Soft CC does not mean death when you are organized. It's annoying, you should avoid it, but it's not insta win for the side that lands it unless you are just bad.

So instead of asking for nerfs, go take the time like we did and figure out the counters. If you refuse to do that, well you deserve what you get.

Ragnar_Lodbrok

Please stop asking for diminishing returns, all that does is make CC useless in PvP. Really people need to L2P

lao

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Please stop asking for diminishing returns, all that does is make CC useless in PvP. Really people need to L2P

quite the opposite. CC is supposed to be used at the right time at the right place and should require coordination and overview. its not supposed to be something that can be spammed by idiots that have zero clue how to play. the way it is atm its a crutch for awful players.

beravinprb19_ESO

Hey. I came from the other thread you made. As a DK myself, I completely agree that skills like this one (and various others) are in desperate need of diminishing returns. I was very surprised, and even a little frustrated, when I first found out that they could be used over and over again with no loss of effectiveness. PvP has always been about playing smart, it should not be about mashing the same buttons and being rewarded for doing so.

That said... Please consider dealing with nonsense like Mist Form before you nerf Dark Talons. Right now, Dark Talons is literally the only ability I have to keep that get out of jail free card in check. By extension, I also feel like you should not be able to bolt out of roots, even more so if roots are nerfed with diminishing returns. Either way, I agree with you for the most part, and I am eager to see the first balance patch. You get +1 from me.

Baphomet

Dodge-roll breaking roots should give 1 sec immunity, bolt escape shouldn't allow you to move when rooted = fixed.

NordJitsu

lao wrote: »

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Please stop asking for diminishing returns, all that does is make CC useless in PvP. Really people need to L2P

quite the opposite. CC is supposed to be used at the right time at the right place and should require coordination and overview. its not supposed to be something that can be spammed by idiots that have zero clue how to play. the way it is atm its a crutch for awful players.

Yup. People running these OP builds aren't good. They're terribad. They're just using broken mechanics.

Obscure

beravinprb19_ESO wrote: »

That said... Please consider dealing with nonsense like Mist Form before you nerf Dark Talons. Right now, Dark Talons is literally the only ability I have to keep that get out of jail free card in check.

That's just because you aren't running into the vamps that pop rapid maneuver before they mist form... And yes the speed bonuses stack. Immunity to all things and faster than the people on mounts chasing them.

But I digress

@NordJitsu‌

It's not the players fault they have a skill that is without direct counter, it's the developers fault for not including direct counters. Sure the party Templar can drop a Cleansing Ritual and everyone can just press X as often as they are rooted. Sure the party Sorc can just drop a negate magic on them, encase, and Shard them in the face. But we're all just doing the best we can with what we have. Good players make a class do amazing things, but even the most average Dragonknight can give them a run just with Broken Talons and Standard of Win.

I want to see some changes because only the scrubs who are bad and exploit a mechanic without direct counter will be effected. I do way nastier things than root spam, and I won't be sad to see it toned down especially if done correctly via implementation of counterplay rather than lazily smacking things with the Nerf bat.

Sirmati

Only dumb DK spam Talons (2,3 after times out of mana)... In 1v1 PvP it almost useless (Mb VS stealth enemy work well).

In RvR it depends, if u have smart team you are just spreed out...

Then L2P... Or just BASH SHIELD

Sihnfahl

Armitas wrote: »

Spamming it so that you run out of stamina for a CC break also causes the DK to be out of Magic to heal and do class based damage.

But not weapon-based. Someone out of stamina can't block and has to use magicka to escape weapon-line attacks.

It's what I do. Lock in place with a Talons, then do a few damaging DK skill attacks. When I get to a certain magicka percentage, I swap skillsets to a stamina-based one and use that while my magicka regens. When stam gets to a point I'm not comfortable, I swap back to magicka-using DK skills.

Alandauron

I guess most of you stating L2P haven't actually played against @NordJitsu‌ or myself. Just saying, cause if you did you'd know that we can counter this build with relative ease. Hell I took on a VR 10 using this strat while sub-level and he had to run away. I stayed at range, used CC and snare and blocked any attempt he made to close the distance or pull me in.

WE KNOW IT CAN BE COUNTERED! But that doesn't mean it's not broken.

chrisub17_ESO104

I don't think direct counters for everything would lead to better gameplay.

And when it comes to scrub vs scrub, the offensive player almost always wins. It's fairly easy to initiate a rotation, it's more difficult to react and counter, even if the counter is itself fairly straight forward.

A few months from now people will look back and laugh at all the crying over DK's. There are far stronger builds, it's just that most people don't have the skills or rank to pull them off yet. When they do, there will be a whole new level of whining on the forums.

Xsorus

I've wiped a few zergs and groups in this game with it...99% of the time it comes down to players following bad trends from previous games, Like Guild Wars 2, where the solution to AOE was stacking.

Like I've seen it so many times, Players just bunch up....give it time and it'll be like DAOC, where people spread out on Incoming because you knew if ya didn't you'd die horribly.

GW2 has just taught so many players how to play poorly.

Loco_Mofo

Ragnar_Lodbrok wrote: »

Please stop asking for diminishing returns, all that does is make CC useless in PvP. Really people need to L2P

Guys, don't take away Ragnar's only weapon in PvP. Please think of poor little Ragnar before doing anything too drastic...

Cheers

lao

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

I've wiped a few zergs and groups in this game with it...99% of the time it comes down to players following bad trends from previous games, Like Guild Wars 2, where the solution to AOE was stacking.

Like I've seen it so many times, Players just bunch up....give it time and it'll be like DAOC, where people spread out on Incoming because you knew if ya didn't you'd die horribly.

GW2 has just taught so many players how to play poorly.

DAoC had 13 years of metagame evolution and its still changing even now. eso is nowhere near that level of complexity, it will take non zombies MAX 6 months to completely figure it out. most likely less. so thats a pretty bad comparison.

Xsorus

It shouldn't take anyone 6 Month's in this game to figure out you shouldn't clump up..

It should take you getting AoEd down 1 damn time to figure out...

lao

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It shouldn't take anyone 6 Month's in this game to figure out you shouldn't clump up..

It should take you getting AoEd down 1 damn time to figure out...

obviously u didnt understand what i was saying. by "figured out" i obviously meant that the metagame development will come to a complete stop cos the game isnt complex enough. good players wont need more than 6 months to come up with the best possible builds/strats.

if some1 even needs one death to figure out that clumping up is bad then he is what i call a zombie aka braindead and it would probably be wise to stay away from mmos (or anything that requires a trace of cognitive activity).

NordJitsu

@xsorusb14_ESO‌

Again, the problem is that this ability works differently from every other CC in the game. It is imbalanced because it is the only option that can perma-lock people who do get with in 8 meters.

No one in their right mind can think that's okay.

And btw, like @Carde‌ said, it didn't originally work this way. You used to be able to CC break it and it was affected by immunity. Then they changed Immobilizes (Encase, Talons, Ect.) into a separate mechanic where you have to dodge roll out.

Fine. But that dodge roll should also apply an immunity just like the CC break did.

Carde

I agree, but it wasn't broke, so it shouldn't have been "fixed". It just gets meddlesome when you start changing things for no real reason.

GravityX19

The ability is good, but the problem is that there is no reliable way to quick counter it without spreading out massively.

2-3 DK's can hold a choke point down if they space properly simply because the move is spammable 2-3-4 times each. You dodge roll one and the other will catch you almost directly after. The ability need to either be re-worked or changed back to how it used to be with CC breaker working on it.

Zintair

I think @NordJitsu‌ is fairly spot on in his assessment of the ability.

The combination of Dark Talons and Standard is ridiculously overwhelming. Can it be countered? Sure it can. But having a counter to something is not a valid argument for balance.

Both Dark Talons AND Standard are tremendous abilities and I doubt ANY other class or line could touch either of them in terms of how much they synergize with each other and bring to the table.

The idea is to be able to spec for different playstyles aka play how you want. Well people want to win. So they ALL use these two abilities and if they aren't they are doing it WRONG.

If I could Dodge out of Talons and be immune for a couple secs I would be fine with this change. Don't touch the synergy or anything else. The perma CC is the problem. It isn't a problem by itself until you bring in (Ultimate Cost Reduction) and more specifically Standard or Bat Swarm.

My fix for standard is just bumpo the ultimate cost to equal NOVA in the Templar tree. 300 base. Nothing else needs to be touched.

Ultimate Cost reduction however needs a rework these abilities are called ULTIMATES not the main method of doing DPS. The TTK is already fast do people really need to die in a second?

Hell as a Templar I use Bat Swarm because it is the only Ultimate worth while and competitive.

CC DR and Ultimate Cost reduction are the major issues here. However a few minor tweaks to the DK would bring them more in line with other classes as well.

Jarnhand

Just a few comments from me, yes I play a DK.
- too begin with I didnt even open the dark talon skill, it simply seemed too lackluster compared to other skills
- yes, that it is spamable is a problem, but so are ALL skills in ESO, not a single one has a timer
- any way just spaming talons are not an option, too low damage, and will use alot of power
- if they need to change this, they need to change how CC works, not how this skill works
- and last: there are FAR FAR FAR bigger problems in ESO right now then this!

NordJitsu

@Jarnhand‌

No, because CC works perfectly in this game apart from this one skill which ignores all the mechanics that balance CC.

Stautmeister

I need this skill to be an effective tank in pve. As long as cost and duration arnt influenced there i couldnt care less.

Teiji

Dragonknight casts Dark Talons:

Person A, wearing medium armor with all passives.
Person B, wearing heavy armor.

Person A is affected by Dark Talons
Person B is affected by Dark Talons

Person A uses Dodge Roll to escape Dark Talons
Person B uses Dodge Roll to escape Dark Talons

Person A used Stamina to Dodge Roll
Person B used more Stamina to Dodge Roll

Person A is stunned
Person B is stunned

Person A uses stamina to break out of the Stun status effect
Person B uses the same amount of stamina to break out of the Stun status effect

Conclusion

Dark Talons is an ability in The Elder Scrolls Online MMORPG game.

Dark Talons is an ability that roots opponents for a duration of up-to four seconds whilst doing damage, counter-play against this ability is executed through the use of a dodge roll that consumes stamina.

Dark Talons has a moderate-high Magicka cost, as do other abilities that utilize Crowd-Control within The Elder Scrolls Online characteristically.

I can't understand what the basis for mass hysteria regarding Dark Talons. There is counter play.

Obscure

@Teiji
Your analysis is missing important variables:

When player A or player B breaks out of a stun at the cost of stamina they are immune to stun for 7 seconds.

When player A or player B breaks out of an immobilize at the cost of stamina they can be instantly be effected again.

Player A using Unstoppable is immune to stuns for 8 seconds
Player B using Unstoppable is immune to stuns 35% longer (40% if using a shield).

Player A and B using Rapid Maneuver are immune to immobilize provided they do not attack and do not have any DoTs active on any enemy targets, at double the cost of stamina to using Unstoppable.

That may alter your conclusion there buddy.

p.hurst1b16_ESO

O noes ! an OP DK ability with the awesome range of....

8 Meters ? You mean you play PvP and do not have a ranged option to hold off a DK ? Then you should have. Learn to play and stop crying cos u died in PvP.

You do not need a nerf to CC's, you need a thick skin or get back to PvE .

And everyone that agreed with this topics proposals and theories. You need to rethink your builds and get to grips with the PvP as it stands. If everything that kills you MUST be OP then PvP is not for you.

Jonnymorrow

Hexos wrote: »

Talons is great, it does not need to be touched.

The root problem here is lack of Diminishing returns in PvP...not any one particular skill.

Also, i really don't see the major deal. DKs inherently have HORRIBLE magicka management. If a DK is spamming this then he will have to invest heavily into magicka which means he will be easier to kill. Also, the damage on this is easily healed thru, you can dodge roll out of it, and its only a root so you can still cast spells and attack yourself. Are you melee only? Plus is the Dk is himself Melee then he will be in range anyway.

This guy hit the nail on the head.