Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

Drachenfier

It's really not that impressive. The damage sucks, the DoT sucks, one roll will take you out of range of Standard, at which point Talons is fairly useless.

Obscure

@p.hurst1b16_ESO
By all means, stay out of 8m with me. Creates exactly the scenario I want you in. Have fun eating your own projectiles at +35% damage. And if I want you in 8m, there's nothing you can do to stop me if your in 22m. GG. Have a nice day.

NordJitsu

Obscure wrote: »

@p.hurst1b16_ESO
By all means, stay out of 8m with me. Creates exactly the scenario I want you in. Have fun eating your own projectiles at +35% damage. And if I want you in 8m, there's nothing you can do to stop me if your in 22m. GG. Have a nice day.

Exactly. This game is FILLED with gap closers. And like Obscure said, staying at range solves little of your problems because of Reflective Scales.

@Teiji‌

I can tell you don't understand the game systems behind this very well (even though I explained them in the OP) so I'll go through it as clearly as possible.

That dodge roll that you use to escape talons will not take you past the range of Talons. That means, unlike every other CC in the game, it can be instantly reapplied. Unlike the Stun in your scenario, for example, which gives you 7 seconds of immunity if you break it.

If you're using Immovable or Mist Form, that stun won't work on you. Talons will.

The problem is the lack of good counter play and the fact that it can be reapplied more easily than other abilities.

A 7 second immunity to Immobilize after roll dodge would solve the problem.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Diminishing returns for Players from players on the CC effects is all that is needed.

hardboot

Dark talons is a plague in PvP , you cannot counter it in normal pvp encounter (no duel that is) , that need to END as fast as possible .

sorcerer "teleport specialist" and "mist form vampires" are broken too , but they do not kill you .

And what NordJitsu say seems right . We do not need a nerf on the skill just a normal CC breaking mechanic .

Obscure

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Diminishing returns for Players from players on the CC effects is all that is needed.

Elaborate please?

When you say DR for the CC effect do you mean an internal DR for the skill in specific or all CC? If all CC's, stun type included, are using DR are you suggesting a common DR for all of them or a DR per effect per source?

I ask because I think a global CC DR system that eventuality reduces these durations to the point of immunity to all CC (roots included), would snub a larger problem which would include Talon spam with the high volume of CC available and limited counter measures players have to dealing with them.

The only problem I have with DR is it tips the balance in favor of the defender by default which is counter intuitive to encouraging skill based play. The playing field should be as even as possible for both attacker and defender, so determining factor to victory is largely based on good build strategy and the skill in applying it...not because you can just soak up the CC long enough to DR it into uselessness and have free reign to burst your enemy down without fear of being interrupted. Not to say DR can't be done in a balanced manner, just that I think it's very difficult to do in a balanced manner.

scy22b14_ESO

The solution is simple. And has been stated multiple times on this thread, but bears repeating.

Add the 7 second immunity after rolling out of any immobilize.

You don't have to change talons. The above will solve the issue.

AltusVenifus

Would everyone cry if there was a skill that used the same perimeters (i.e. 8 meter range, was spammable, had no counter except 33% of your stamina ETC) and it required magicka to break out of? Lets say nightblades had a AOE of that type...

I they could destroy hole groups just like the DK... I vote for another broken mech to fix the already broken mech...

AltusVenifus

Here is the thread in a nutshell

DKs don't touch my overpowered skill... I'm super overpowered and can spam ults and roots to rack up millions of AP...

Everyone else but sorcs: I get taloned 4 times in 4 secs, am out of stamina then die...

Sorcs: What are you talking about... use bolt escape... simple.

NordJitsu

AltusVenifus wrote: »

Here is the thread in a nutshell

DKs don't touch my overpowered skill... I'm super overpowered and can spam ults and roots to rack up millions of AP...

Everyone else but sorcs: I get taloned 4 times in 4 secs, am out of stamina then die...

Sorcs: What are you talking about... use bolt escape... simple.

I use Bolt Escape so this skill isn't a big problem for me personally.

But I still recognize how horribly broken it is, understand that most of the player base doesn't have the option I have, and want this skill fixed for the good of PvP.

Honestly if you're defending this skill right now you're asking for the PvP of the game to die.

Zintair

NordJitsu wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

Here is the thread in a nutshell

DKs don't touch my overpowered skill... I'm super overpowered and can spam ults and roots to rack up millions of AP...

Everyone else but sorcs: I get taloned 4 times in 4 secs, am out of stamina then die...

Sorcs: What are you talking about... use bolt escape... simple.

I use Bolt Escape so this skill isn't a big problem for me personally.

But I still recognize how horribly broken it is, understand that most of the player base doesn't have the option I have, and want this skill fixed for the good of PvP.

Honestly if you're defending this skill right now you're asking for the PvP of the game to die.

I assure you he is not defending the skill haha.

DR on this type of CC is what is really needed. I don't understand why the DKs need to rally against the nerf bat here when no one is asking for it?

It is just a balanced way to counter it is all through mechanics already in the game for other types of CC.

Very simple and continually well said @Nordjitsu

NordJitsu

@Zintair‌

Ya to clarify I wasn't saying he was. I know I quoted him so I guess that was confusing, sorry, lol.

The reason I quoted him was the post seems to imply Sorcs aren't worried about this ability since we get a counter. Its true that I personally get a counter, but the mechanics of the skill are still broken.

That was my points. Also that the handful of DKs saying "don't touch Talons" are just protecting their prized pig. I've got several DKs in my guild who use this skill quite a bit (why would you not?) but they all still know something needs to change with the mechanics of it.

bg22

Completely agree with the OP. It absolutely seems to be broken. I think that all roots are broken in regards to not granting CC immunity when broken. Why should a stun effect a knockdown and vice versa if root doesn't even effect itself.

Simple fix for this: add CC immunity to this just like EVERY other CC.

Forgot to mention: the lead dev plays a DK, so don't look for this fix to come any time soon.

Theos_Demarca

I can understand where you guys are coming from a PVP perspective, but I think you need to look at the overall game as a whole before you cry out for a skill nerf....

Tanking in this game is extremely different then most games. Agro is random besides and the only two taunt abilities are single target .. Stam from one handed and shield and magic from the undaunted lines. Now while these two abilities are great for boss fights they are almost usless in trash/large group pulls.

Now I know what your gonna say trash pulls are not meant to be done the standard way most MMOs do , and there is no real 'tanking' of trash... And you would be right.... However that doesn't mean the tank has no job in trash pulls. They do and it's called C.C.
Keeping mobs off your healer and dps is a form of tanking in its own right... And the most usefull skill for this as a DK tank is Talons. Now it's not a complete stop as ranged classes will still through out their bolts. Yet at the very least it keeps the ranged clumped up for the Standard AOE dump by dps.

Now all that said , I agree PVP is also a different beast, and I wouldn't be opposed to a mechanic that gives either diminishing returns in PVP , or as suggested an immunity after dodging out of the root. Just As long as that change isn't on Mobs as well

Zintair

Theos_Demarca wrote: »

I can understand where you guys are coming from a PVP perspective, but I think you need to look at the overall game as a whole before you cry out for a skill nerf....

Tanking in this game is extremely different then most games. Agro is random besides and the only two taunt abilities are single target .. Stam from one handed and shield and magic from the undaunted lines. Now while these two abilities are great for boss fights they are almost usless in trash/large group pulls.

Now I know what your gonna say trash pulls are not meant to be done the standard way most MMOs do , and there is no real 'tanking' of trash... And you would be right.... However that doesn't mean the tank has no job in trash pulls. They do and it's called C.C.
Keeping mobs off your healer and dps is a form of tanking in its own right... And the most usefull skill for this as a DK tank is Talons. Now it's not a complete stop as ranged classes will still through out their bolts. Yet at the very least it keeps the ranged clumped up for the Standard AOE dump by dps.

Now all that said , I agree PVP is also a different beast, and I wouldn't be opposed to a mechanic that gives either diminishing returns in PVP , or as suggested an immunity after dodging out of the root. Just As long as that change isn't on Mobs as well

How does any of this have anything to do with player CC immunity after they dodge/roll? No one is asking to change the mechanic of talons only how PLAYERS gain immunity to it.

Not one NPC posted in this thread so I'd had to assume they don't care (wink)


@‌NordJitsu

Yeah same thing with DKs in our guild. We all know what it does. Just annoying that the same token people screaming L2P just don't understand the irony of their words, especially playing DK which a kindergartener could do with success.

Slyfe

The main problem I have with a generalized root/cc change with DR and or immunity is that it guts all the short duration roots in the game. You guys need to take the blinders off and see how this affects all the skills not just the one you don't like.

On a side note: I love all the comments from people saying that it's easy to counter, but its a problem... So confusing :P

NordJitsu

@Theos_Demarca‌

What he said. ^

Roll dodge giving you a 7 sec immunity would not affect PvE in the slightest. Monsters do not roll dodge. It would only affect PvP, where this skill is a problem. No one is asking for a damage reduction or anything like that.

I did say increased cost and decreased range are options in my OP. They would help with the problem, but would hurt PvE. And they aren't needed since all that we need to fix this skill is for it to work like other CC in the game for PvP purposes (ie. give it an immunity.)

@Zintair‌

Yup. DK is the noob class right now. Shooter fans will know what the "Noob Combo" is from Halo. Well Talons plus Bats/Standard is the Noob-Combo of ESO right now.

Problem is you take that same noob combo and give it to a competent player who understands how broken these mechanics are and he will exploit them like we're seeing currently.

I think L2P is an appropriate response to quite a few of the calls for nerfs (lol at the thread that said Templars are OP). But in this case its just broken mechanics and the only people defending it are those who want to exploit the broken mechanics to their own advantage.

Which will kill the game long term.

Ralathar44

Sounds to me more like an oversight or a bug than the need to nerf the skill. Just make it perform in the same manner as other CC and issue fixed.

NordJitsu

@Ralathar44‌

Right. Please read the OP.

Never once was the term "nerf" used. Nerf, to me, means actually reducing the power of an ability, increasing the cost, or otherwise numerically changing it.

Changing the mechanics that support it (which are broken) is different.

Xsorus

Dodging out of roots should give you immunity to roots.

Obscure

I think we can all agree a dodge should provide a 7 second immunity to immobilize. Perhaps this thread should spawn a poll question thread eh @NordJitsu‌ ?

Jarnhand

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

The solution is simple. And has been stated multiple times on this thread, but bears repeating.

Add the 7 second immunity after rolling out of any immobilize.

You don't have to change talons. The above will solve the issue.

Hello get real! For 50% of your stamina you will be totally immune to all CC in the whole game for 7 secs?!? Again; hello get real! Makes all CC useless. Will never happen, this is a suggestion from someone who has little or no experience from before with PvP games, or someone who wants to remove all CC.

Also, tried it last night on my DK; 3 Dark Talons and I am OOP. So for my total mana bar it can root people in a circle around me, but the damage is very low, and I will be able to kill nothing.

The only scenario where DK are OPed is when several DKs are chaining them, but then we are talking groups/sergs, and then you are dead in 2 secs any way.

The only people that are angry at this is mainly soloers/duoers/4man teams. And of course it sucks, so does getting killed in 2 hits/crits from a high damage caster. All you have to do is use your CC break, and you are immune. Deal with it!

Either use YOUR stamina to break free AND get immune to CC, or stand there for the timer. Its really simple. And as I wrote earlier; there are FAR worse gamebreakers right now WAY WAY worse.

LatinLegacy

People will throw opinions in both directions but the simple fact is, Talons will see a change in the near future. It will most likely stay the way it is but will have a fixed cooldown attached to it. The skill on its own is powerful enough but it's how DK's are using other skills to work with it that puts it over the top. For the ones that are screaming roll out as some form of defense of the skill, just go play another game because at this point, no DK is stupid. They are anticipating that you're going to do that & after they drop there morphed standard of choice, another Talons or Charge will follow right behind it. What makes it worse is that instead of just dealing with one DK Vamp, their are multiple ones now running around in PvP.

From the ones that I've talked to on the DC side, most are using Heavy Armor with sword & board. They have the impenetrable trait on most of their gear. The armor sets are different bust most seem to be using the vampires kiss set bonus & the willows path set bonus. All of them are vampires as that seems to be a prerequisite for the build in question. Now that most have caught on, more & more players using this build are appearing in PvP. A majority of my campaigns that my main & alts on have DK Vamp Emperors or have one in the top spot for their respected faction.

My DK is low in level as my nightblade is my main but I can see that ESO has been blessed with its first cookie cutter build. Many will copy it & PvP will be a complete mess for every other class.

OniMalkav

L2P = Over Power Knight (OPK) FTW, lock with Talons with Scales up and (nearly perma) Magma Armor derp roll everything, and just to add more fun why not use Impulse/morphs and do this all WHILE blocking.

Works for both PvE and PvP. No other class got skills that are as good as DK, unlimited Reflects on projectiles compared to Templars Eclipse which only works on single target, Talons massive damage+synergy+root (so no melee mob can even touch you), Chain to pull (only thing similar is Silver Leash and that only works on limited targets).

Alandauron

p.hurst1b16_ESO wrote: »

O noes ! an OP DK ability with the awesome range of....

8 Meters ? You mean you play PvP and do not have a ranged option to hold off a DK ? Then you should have. Learn to play and stop crying cos u died in PvP.

You do not need a nerf to CC's, you need a thick skin or get back to PvE .

And everyone that agreed with this topics proposals and theories. You need to rethink your builds and get to grips with the PvP as it stands. If everything that kills you MUST be OP then PvP is not for you.

Let me guess, you're a DK...

You must not have read anything, just defending your skill because without it you will get killed.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

You can CC break it lol.

You also need to understand that using the skill requires this person to put himself in danger and play melee in a range dominate PvP where you can be kited

Orchish

Nerfing Talons will seriously hurt melee DK's in what is right now completely dominated by range.

NordJitsu

@JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO‌

Please don't post about mechanics if you don't understand them. You are factually incorrect.

CC break does nothing to any form of Immobilize.

JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

@JoseDelgadoCub17_ESO‌

Please don't post about mechanics if you don't understand them. You are factually incorrect.

CC break does nothing to any form of Immobilize.

I mean you guys are complaining about a soft CC that only should hurt melee since range can still attack and still a player must put himself in danger to grab a lot of players

Aaren

kstauthamerb16_ESO wrote: »

I need this skill to be an effective tank in pve. As long as cost and duration arnt influenced there i couldnt care less.

But what about the tanks that have no AoE root?