Broken Talons in Dragon Knights Online

bg22

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Therium104‌

So you're scared. Got it. Your cowardice and ignorance is now on public display.
.

Sucks, I was looking forward to guesting in his campaign as well.

Maverick827

"Singled out" is a bit of an understatement. You didn't just casually use Dark Talons as an example of the most egregious consequence of immunity-free roots, your initial post is a god damned crusade against Dark Talons and Dragon Knights, specifically. Your post is so over-the-top that I'm still not sure this isn't all some elaborate satire of whiney nerf threads.

Even worse is that I've seen you fervently defend Bolt Escape, probably the only skill more widely considered to be overpowered than Dark Talons. Shockingly, you're a Sorcorer.

I bet it bothers you when people say Bolt Escape is overpowered. I know it does because, again, I've read those threads that you were a part of. Then you do the exact same to Dragon Knights and Dark Talons and wonder why people just don't "get it."

Well, everything you feel about Bolt Escape and the people who say it's overpowered, people here feel about Dark Talons and you. You think you have it all figured out, and that you're some objective PvP guru, but at the end of the day this is just the classic "nerf paper, scissors is fine" scenario.

At least the Bolt Escape threads weren't titled "Broken Escape in Elder Sorcorers Online," though.

MoMoOG

Maverick827 wrote: »

They are both OP.

NordJitsu

@Maverick827‌

Well I also play Templar and Night Blade.

Which class I play doesn't matter though. There are good threads and bad threads. Threads that make good arguments and threads that don't.

I don't think I'm 100% objective, because no one is. But I do try to be.

I don't think Bolt Escape is OP because of the return for cost and because of the various counters. I do think Talons is because the cost/benefit is vastly different and because most classes (except for mine) lack a hard counter.

I think a good number of people agree with me, including apparently ZOS. Notice that they said they are now looking for at mechanisms for root immunity. Have they made a similar statement about Bolt Escape? Nope.

Not all arguments are created equal. Your failure to distinguish between just/unjust or good/bad arguments isn't my problem.

bg22

@Maverick827‌ Comparing talons and bolt are two entirely different beast.

I'm a NB, and yes I will certainly admit that I HATE bolt, and I think the cost needs up'd a bit, I wouldn't call it OP. While it has led to me saying "You mother f'n p**sy, sorcerer" after I smashed them down to 25% health only to watch them ride bolts of lighting gleefully off into the sunset, it has never been responsible for a death in which I literally had no power against as often the case with the spamming of talons.

NordJitsu

@bg22‌

Have you tried Path Of Darkness?

Interestingly enough it actually allows you to cover distance faster than Bolt Escape.

I know everyone says its trash. They're wrong. I used to believe them too until I tried the ability. I was able to catch a Bolt Escaping guidlie 10/10 times for a cheaper magicka cost.

The heal morph makes is a great escape skill to because you regain health while you run away.

I've got a video of it that I just have to get around to editing and uploading.

(Sorry for off topic post)

bg22

@NordJitsu‌
I have, and do use it, just not so much in PvP, I'll have to give it a try. Thanks for the heads-up.

Obscure

Speaking as a Dragonknight player all through my time on the PTS and since launch I can say wwithout a doubt Dark Talons is a Learn to Play issue...for the player using it. I pride myself on player skill but when I have Talons slotted I feel the skill ceiling come crashing down. For me it's not enough to know I can be effective without it, I have to actually be as effective without it, so I've stopped using it to find alternative methods and damn is Bombard good. Though that's getting away from the point.

Point is Dark Talons isn't the only spammable AoE immobilize, it's just the most user friendly. Minimum effort, maximum effect. Sure you can do math with an abacus, but it's easier with a calculator, type analogy. I don't want to see the skill changed, I want to see the skill of players using it changed. Skill level should determine how effective anything is, but as a realist I can't help but acknowledge that in any MMO players go out of their way to trivialize even the most complex game mechanics to minimize effort and maximize effect. Not that ESO's mechanics are complex (awkward is the word I'd use), but anything that raises the skill floor for these no-skill-thrill builds I'm all for. Immunity to root on Dodge? Sounds good to me. Immunity to roots with medium armor Evasion skill? Delightful counter play! Gear sets and potion effects that grant root reduction and immunity? That sounds amazing!

Nothing increases your skill level faster than running into someone who built to counter your little game. Against roots that's just a by product of a bolt focused Sorc, and everyone else is left with a handful of options that are all unrealistic or just not viable for counterplay.

Therium104

Eso. Please nerf everything that works from other classes (just not mine) so the game is so easy mode even I can play it.

Why don't you bads just be honest. There is nothing wrong with dark talons. To say otherwise is nonsense. You bads need to stop posting.

NordJitsu

@Therium104‌

Still waiting for you to show me how bad I am in game. Name a campaign and I'll be there.

Don't talk smack unless you're willing to back it up.

Therium104

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Therium104‌

Still waiting for you to show me how bad I am in game. Name a campaign and I'll be there.

Don't talk smack unless you're willing to back it up.

Don't complain about everything and expect to be taken seriously.

The devs cannot nerf the game to a point you can be competitive

Loco_Mofo

The challenge has been thrown down

captain_awesome

I'd like to see 2 Pro's fight. Tell me where ill fraps it for ya, make a funky video with appropriate loud music.

Back to topic - Has this OP skill been fixed/nerfed yet?

bg22

Therium104 wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Therium104‌

Still waiting for you to show me how bad I am in game. Name a campaign and I'll be there.

Don't talk smack unless you're willing to back it up.

Don't complain about everything and expect to be taken seriously.

The devs cannot nerf the game to a point you can be competitive

I CANNOT wait until talons is added to the immunity list like ALL OTHER CC's. Oh the hopeless DK's that thought they were good... I'll be making my second youtube video shortly after that fix - entitled "And all these DK's thought they were good".

Featuring only DK's.

Spiff_Devir

I can hear the fat lady is about to sing. Fix it!

Nox_Aeterna

Hehehe , it is so funny to see people defend the DK.

It is far too late for that , it is obvious to anyone that actually saw what a DK can do , that the freaking class is OP when compared to the others atm.

I dont mean the usual small gaps that the devs usually keep changing for years , i mean a freaking huge gap that even a blind man would not miss.

So yeah ... im quite sure there will be a lot of balancing.

gunslinger3440

As a VR10DKAR14, I gotta say Talon spam is OP,especially with how the standard works.

Something might have went wrong when they made flying targets immune to the snare+dot of the Talon.

NordJitsu

The more I think about it, I don't think the full 7 sec immunity is a good idea.

I'd prefer a shorter immunity, maybe 3 secs, just to prevent an Immediate reapplication when you roll dodge out.

The skill itself probably doesn't need to be touched at all, just the mechanics supporting it.

Erock25

Broken Talons spam to the extreme https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gymCpN0Pcsk

NordJitsu

@Erock25‌

That video shows the essence of the problem rather nicely, though the combination of Emperor, Standard spam, flame whip damage, reflective scales, ect. had a lot to do with what he was able to pull of there.

Honestly I can't see any class doing something similar and I've never seen a video of that by anyone other than a DK. I've never seen it in live either.

Hail_Sithis

bg22 wrote: »

What are you even talking about? You didn't even get the analogy correct.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=22YWYAtcyEA

Stupid comment gets stupid reply.

Wifeaggro13

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Aphilas‌

Didn't take us more than 10 secs to figure out a counter for Bat Swarm. We just yelled in TS for everyone to back up and stay at range. Then we used fire damage (Weakness to Elements + Vampire natural Fire Debuff FTW). There were guys in our group solo'ing VR10 Bat-spammers when they were VR1.

I was talking about that specific combo, which Obscure and I only just tried out. It was far from the only way to Counter it.

But again, like we've said with Talons, the fact that something can be countered in some way does not necessarily mean its a balanced skill. You have to take each situation individual and see what the impact is on the meta-game.

Not sure what you're going on about with AoE nerfs. I've actually been calling for AoE buffs since the first PvP test back in September (which was met with the first AoE nerf.) I love zerg busting mechanics.

@Brizz‌

Thank you. Yes, people like to troll. I'm used to it because internet. I do wish ZOS would step up the enforcement though. People not contributing to threads, going off topic, attacking other posters, ect. should be handled by moderators. So far they seem to get away with it every time.

@Maverick827‌

Still waiting on an explanation from you for how adding a Immobilize break immunity to players would affect PvE.

Additionally, I wouldn't even mind if this particular skill was re-balanced for PvE. DKs are the best tanks right now because of this skill (Dragon's Blood helps too.) You can make a competent tank in another class, but play how you want to play goes out the windows when every top trial team will be running all DK tanks.

And yes, like Obscure said, the devs have read this thread. They mentioned in the AuA that Talons is currently bugged (hitting more targets than intended, ie. infinite) and also that they are looking at additional counters for Immobilize/Root.

So I'm satisfied that the issue has been brought to their attention and I don't have much less to discuss until we see their changes in action.

Talons is not great people need to get it through their head. because people have trouble with it in pvp just like bolt escape . Its completely meh in pve it has very little range costs a crap load to cast. The most effcient cc in game is volcanic rune . I rarely use talons while tanking,its simply a waste. And the reason people will use Dk for trials has nothing to do with talons.its because of our survivability.its the only real plus to a dk. All this crying over Dk's in light armor with resto staff builds has very little to do with the class. Its the gear combos that make them over powered.
The most over looked issue is the utter and complete bull crap condition of the melee lines. It really is pushing the community to these exploit builds and DK is not the only one that has them. As for hitting to many targets well it should if they are gonna throw 20 f ing trash mobs at 4players with no real ranged Cc. All your complaints to change stuff to accomadate Pvp will ruin alot of end game Pve

Maverick827

Seems like a problem with Emperor ultimate spamming to me.

RazzPitazz

Maverick827 wrote: »

 "nerf paper, scissors is fine"

I lol'd XD

Erock25

@NordJitsu‌ He seems to rarely use flame whip except for the rare times he is going after a single target. He just walks in to a group of 8+ people, drops his standard, and literally spams broken talons repeatedly over and over. Waytch from 6:50 on and it is hilarious watching his ability bar and broken talons is almost on repeat spam.

jman544

That video really just shows someone spamming ultimate's. He could have used cinder storm or a similar ability and achieved the same thing. It's not that Dark Talon's or any one skill itself is OP, it's that the system itself is kind of broken.

Problem one is that ultimate skills are much better than other skills (i know they are supposed to be that way) the thing is though it creates a condition where whoever can spam ultimate's most frequently will win. Problem two is that AoE abilities do seem to generate way more ultimate than single target skills, thus gimping single target builds. A mixture of defensive skills that keep you up long enough to build Ultimate, combined with gear and skills that reduce ultimate cost, on top of AoE crowd controll skills that disproportionately reward Ultimate, creates a perfect storm where certain builds are over powered.

In conclusion the game is simply way too dependent upon Ultimate skills. Whatever abilities generate ultimate the fastest and with the least risk to the player will always be "over powered". IMHO all AoE skills should be "glass cannon" type skills which lower your defenses but reward you with high ultimate gain and the ability to affect a large amount of targets. I think Zeni needs to buff single target range skills. Doing so would adequately realign the risk vs reward associated with using short range AoE's that generate massive ultimate. Nerfs, AoE caps and all that really don't address the underlying issue and in my opinion just hurt the game.

Obscure

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Aphilas‌

Didn't take us more than 10 secs to figure out a counter for Bat Swarm. We just yelled in TS for everyone to back up and stay at range. Then we used fire damage (Weakness to Elements + Vampire natural Fire Debuff FTW). There were guys in our group solo'ing VR10 Bat-spammers when they were VR1.

I was talking about that specific combo, which Obscure and I only just tried out. It was far from the only way to Counter it.

But again, like we've said with Talons, the fact that something can be countered in some way does not necessarily mean its a balanced skill. You have to take each situation individual and see what the impact is on the meta-game.

Not sure what you're going on about with AoE nerfs. I've actually been calling for AoE buffs since the first PvP test back in September (which was met with the first AoE nerf.) I love zerg busting mechanics.

@Brizz‌

Thank you. Yes, people like to troll. I'm used to it because internet. I do wish ZOS would step up the enforcement though. People not contributing to threads, going off topic, attacking other posters, ect. should be handled by moderators. So far they seem to get away with it every time.

@Maverick827‌

Still waiting on an explanation from you for how adding a Immobilize break immunity to players would affect PvE.

Additionally, I wouldn't even mind if this particular skill was re-balanced for PvE. DKs are the best tanks right now because of this skill (Dragon's Blood helps too.) You can make a competent tank in another class, but play how you want to play goes out the windows when every top trial team will be running all DK tanks.

And yes, like Obscure said, the devs have read this thread. They mentioned in the AuA that Talons is currently bugged (hitting more targets than intended, ie. infinite) and also that they are looking at additional counters for Immobilize/Root.

So I'm satisfied that the issue has been brought to their attention and I don't have much less to discuss until we see their changes in action.

Talons is not great people need to get it through their head. because people have trouble with it in pvp just like bolt escape . Its completely meh in pve it has very little range costs a crap load to cast. The most effcient cc in game is volcanic rune . I rarely use talons while tanking,its simply a waste. And the reason people will use Dk for trials has nothing to do with talons.its because of our survivability.its the only real plus to a dk. All this crying over Dk's in light armor with resto staff builds has very little to do with the class. Its the gear combos that make them over powered.
The most over looked issue is the utter and complete bull crap condition of the melee lines. It really is pushing the community to these exploit builds and DK is not the only one that has them. As for hitting to many targets well it should if they are gonna throw 20 f ing trash mobs at 4players with no real ranged Cc. All your complaints to change stuff to accomadate Pvp will ruin alot of end game Pve

Talons is not great? Based on what supporting evidence? Your subjective opinion? Well based on that sort of debate we should be sure to ask the rainbow unicorns from space for their thoughts as well, since they clearly exist because I say so and need only my subjective opinion to be on even footing in this debate.

Not going to bother formulating a legitimate counter to what is self evidently uninformed opinion being presented as fact. To attempt to refute foolishness with logic is foolishness itself. Ignorance can be cured with knowledge, but stupidity is a terminal illness...

Wifeaggro13

Obscure wrote: »

Wifeaggro13 wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

@Aphilas‌

Didn't take us more than 10 secs to figure out a counter for Bat Swarm. We just yelled in TS for everyone to back up and stay at range. Then we used fire damage (Weakness to Elements + Vampire natural Fire Debuff FTW). There were guys in our group solo'ing VR10 Bat-spammers when they were VR1.

I was talking about that specific combo, which Obscure and I only just tried out. It was far from the only way to Counter it.

But again, like we've said with Talons, the fact that something can be countered in some way does not necessarily mean its a balanced skill. You have to take each situation individual and see what the impact is on the meta-game.

Not sure what you're going on about with AoE nerfs. I've actually been calling for AoE buffs since the first PvP test back in September (which was met with the first AoE nerf.) I love zerg busting mechanics.

@Brizz‌

Thank you. Yes, people like to troll. I'm used to it because internet. I do wish ZOS would step up the enforcement though. People not contributing to threads, going off topic, attacking other posters, ect. should be handled by moderators. So far they seem to get away with it every time.

@Maverick827‌

Still waiting on an explanation from you for how adding a Immobilize break immunity to players would affect PvE.

Additionally, I wouldn't even mind if this particular skill was re-balanced for PvE. DKs are the best tanks right now because of this skill (Dragon's Blood helps too.) You can make a competent tank in another class, but play how you want to play goes out the windows when every top trial team will be running all DK tanks.

And yes, like Obscure said, the devs have read this thread. They mentioned in the AuA that Talons is currently bugged (hitting more targets than intended, ie. infinite) and also that they are looking at additional counters for Immobilize/Root.

So I'm satisfied that the issue has been brought to their attention and I don't have much less to discuss until we see their changes in action.

Talons is not great people need to get it through their head. because people have trouble with it in pvp just like bolt escape . Its completely meh in pve it has very little range costs a crap load to cast. The most effcient cc in game is volcanic rune . I rarely use talons while tanking,its simply a waste. And the reason people will use Dk for trials has nothing to do with talons.its because of our survivability.its the only real plus to a dk. All this crying over Dk's in light armor with resto staff builds has very little to do with the class. Its the gear combos that make them over powered.
The most over looked issue is the utter and complete bull crap condition of the melee lines. It really is pushing the community to these exploit builds and DK is not the only one that has them. As for hitting to many targets well it should if they are gonna throw 20 f ing trash mobs at 4players with no real ranged Cc. All your complaints to change stuff to accomadate Pvp will ruin alot of end game Pve

Talons is not great? Based on what supporting evidence? Your subjective opinion? Well based on that sort of debate we should be sure to ask the rainbow unicorns from space for their thoughts as well, since they clearly exist because I say so and need only my subjective opinion to be on even footing in this debate.

Not going to bother formulating a legitimate counter to what is self evidently uninformed opinion being presented as fact. To attempt to refute foolishness with logic is foolishness itself. Ignorance can be cured with knowledge, but stupidity is a terminal illness...

I just gave you the facts Buddy it costs over 400 Magica for one cast it only roots in a radius near the caster and it is easily broken. jesus its near useless in PVE end game dungeons... do you even do VR dungeons? those are facts dude not subjective opinon. Is it over powered in PVP certainly but not anymore then bolt escape is. There are adjustments that need to be made to DK certainly but its survivability is not one of them . actually the fix would be for Diminishing returns in PVP and a reduction in stamina cost to release ones self from it. Starting with banner reduction would be a nice start but removing CC from a Tank class is pretty stupid all together . unless they intend to adjust their mechanics on the end game lvl which wont happen. Its not rainbows its not opinon and its not unicorns . Your pissed because DK's are rolling 8 deep spamming the stupid friggin ability in your PVP ball. I hardly use Talons id rather juggle encounters with volcanic rune which is far more broken lol. and your not formulating an opinion because you know nothing about the Dragon knight class. what needs to be nerfed is the god damned set bonus and light armor bonus's Dk's are exploiting to become indestructible bottomless magica casters.
Dk has some overpowered abilities but it has little to do with Talons really talons is strictly a PVP issue

NordJitsu

@Wifeaggro13‌

With all do respect, you have no idea what you're talking about. This is probably the best ability in the game, PvE and PvP.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXdLy3KYmWc

Maverick827

Once again, that video is all about the power of ultimate spamming.