Boss Camping Has To Be Dealt With

Socratic · April 2014

On legend of mir like 10 years ago there was a queue system for bosses, and these bosses spawned every 2/3 hours, you would have to stand there for 12 hours sometimes just to get a boss. This queue was enforced only by players.

Bunk · April 2014

Zarec wrote: »

Bunk wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Bunk wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Bunk wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO wrote: »

I know how you read it. But it's standard mmo boiler plate. I'm saying if they interpret normal farming to be griefing behavior as you think they do. It is cause to abandon this company.

I would have to agree with this, if ZOS don't want people farming they have to handle it on mechanics levels not with bans.
Especially because other than a few supposed emails from ZOS there is nothing posted anywhere on these forums, on the website or in the game saying farming is a banable offence. If they want to ban people (legit players) for farming ever it needs to state very clearly somewhere where every single player will see it.

MMOs have been farmed since they started it's part of the MMO game style, even raids are farmed you're just alone when you do it.
The public bosses are an issue for people completing them/quests but TBH a better fix than nerfing drops would be to make a single hit on that boss count towards completion or just being in the area.

OP your idea sounds great now but as others have stated farmers will just move on to other areas and be in your way, if you want to have awesome boss fights play the closed instanced dungeons as these are far more rewarding for both tactics and usable gear.

It is not farming they are getting banned for. It is hindering other players ability to play the game as it was intended that they are getting banned for. Beyond the first kill of the boss, killing him multiple times does not alter the content if the game in any way. So taking that ability away from other players by spawn camping infringes on other players rights to enjoy the natural progression of the game. If spawn camping progressed the game in anyway, then the argument would be different.

Your unilateral definition of "progression" doesn't matter because it's different from mine.

I view spawn camping as progression as it's easily the best way to get a full inventory of items. Deconstruct those items for crafting XP. Boom, progression at its finest.

Camping a boss won't get you banned, no matter how much you stomp your feet and quote the terms of use you greatly misconstrued. At the end of the day, it's a completely legitimate tactic. Want to get boss credit? Better get a hit in faster :^)

You might want to check the forums. There are several closed threads to this effect.

If anyone has gotten suspended, it's because they were botting or suspected of botting. As long as you're sitting at your keyboard, you're free to kill a mob as many times as you want, as long as it's not exploitation (eg, a bugged mob that keeps constantly respawning when it shouldn't be)

You really should do your homework

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/567599/#Comment_567599

EXPLOITING a boss.

You can read, right?

Can you? Keep reading sweetpea.

I stopped reading when I reached more of your pedantic terms of use misinterpretation.

You seem to believe your own version of the terms to be gospel, rather than ZOS's, so there's really no use arguing with you.

Zarec · April 2014

Bunk wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Bunk wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Bunk wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Bunk wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

jdkorreckpreub18_ESO wrote: »

I know how you read it. But it's standard mmo boiler plate. I'm saying if they interpret normal farming to be griefing behavior as you think they do. It is cause to abandon this company.

I would have to agree with this, if ZOS don't want people farming they have to handle it on mechanics levels not with bans.
Especially because other than a few supposed emails from ZOS there is nothing posted anywhere on these forums, on the website or in the game saying farming is a banable offence. If they want to ban people (legit players) for farming ever it needs to state very clearly somewhere where every single player will see it.

MMOs have been farmed since they started it's part of the MMO game style, even raids are farmed you're just alone when you do it.
The public bosses are an issue for people completing them/quests but TBH a better fix than nerfing drops would be to make a single hit on that boss count towards completion or just being in the area.

OP your idea sounds great now but as others have stated farmers will just move on to other areas and be in your way, if you want to have awesome boss fights play the closed instanced dungeons as these are far more rewarding for both tactics and usable gear.

It is not farming they are getting banned for. It is hindering other players ability to play the game as it was intended that they are getting banned for. Beyond the first kill of the boss, killing him multiple times does not alter the content if the game in any way. So taking that ability away from other players by spawn camping infringes on other players rights to enjoy the natural progression of the game. If spawn camping progressed the game in anyway, then the argument would be different.

Your unilateral definition of "progression" doesn't matter because it's different from mine.

I view spawn camping as progression as it's easily the best way to get a full inventory of items. Deconstruct those items for crafting XP. Boom, progression at its finest.

Camping a boss won't get you banned, no matter how much you stomp your feet and quote the terms of use you greatly misconstrued. At the end of the day, it's a completely legitimate tactic. Want to get boss credit? Better get a hit in faster :^)

You might want to check the forums. There are several closed threads to this effect.

If anyone has gotten suspended, it's because they were botting or suspected of botting. As long as you're sitting at your keyboard, you're free to kill a mob as many times as you want, as long as it's not exploitation (eg, a bugged mob that keeps constantly respawning when it shouldn't be)

You really should do your homework

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/567599/#Comment_567599

EXPLOITING a boss.

You can read, right?

Can you? Keep reading sweetpea.

I stopped reading when I reached more of your pedantic terms of use misinterpretation.

You seem to believe your own version of the terms to be gospel, rather than ZOS's, so there's really no use arguing with you. It's like trying to explain sarcasm to an autist.

1. Do not bring mental disorders into a debate. Making a joke about autism is not funny nor appropriate.
2. If you could read,player states he was not botting.
3. And please learn what exploit actually means.

I'll do the work for you.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

Eps · April 2014

This is what instanced dungeons have been for for almost a decade.

Buppas · April 2014

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 wrote: »

Honestly I do not understand the "we have right to farm" argument regarding this very subject. I.E. boss camping.

I feel there's so many other way to farm crafting mats that does not interfere with other players enjoyment. Farmers don't have to camp boss to be able to craft.
So what's the point ?

Just as you can't don't understand the "we have a right to farm" attitiude, I expect most people have an "I don't understand why not" attitude, because quite frankly, there is NOTHING a public dungeon (or the skulls on the map) have as far as progression goes (this far anyway), except some loot, achivement, and maybe a challenging fight (which from my experience, is only challenging if you are solo)

Yes there are other ways, but none as efficient/fun (for me), I can spend 1h camping one boss and in this time: be social with my guild / other people camping, rack up 200+items to deconstruct along with 1-3k gp from soulgems / potions /misc. items I can't deconstruct

or I can spend 1h running around doing random things while looking for nodes to harvest for the materials (but miss out on the crafting xp from deconstructing), I'm at lvl 25 right now, and have my crafts at:
Blacksmith: 21 (70% in)
Clothing: 17 (80% in)
Woodworking: 22(60% in)

And in total I might have spent 4-5h grinding materials to get there (public dungeon boss farming), and haven't crafted a single item, just deconstruct, give away materials to friend / sell for more gp so I can buy more styles etc, it's simply the most time/cost effective way I've personally found to get to where I want with all the crafts, nevermind it drops alot of the traits I need to research aswell!

Farming isn't bad for MMO's, its what makes people stay, I'm personally glad the respawn is so short of it, and I agree on the sentiment that it can feel anticlimatic to enter a public dungeon and it not feeling like an achivement killing the lastboss due to the farmers, however there are other alternatives out there to reach that; use the group finder and do a dungeon.

I highly doubt zenimax will change the mechanic relating to public dungeons, as if you increase the spawntime, it will force people to simply stand around and wait for it to spawn to get the achivement, similary doing it the way I suggested (give people option to enter solo), is probably a coding / mechanic issue that is too large to "be worth it" from a business pov (pure speculation)

@Zarec

I agree the playground has changed since "back in the days", but I disagree with that I limit other peoples gameplay by farming a mob repeatedly (unless ofc, its required for a quest or gameprogression reasons), but the endboss in a public dungeon isn't neccessary for any progression, except getting achivements. I can't say for sure how Zenimax intended for this content to be played, but I would assume that they realised what would happen with a easy-to-farm mob that drops good money and crafting stuff inside a public dungeon, some peoples suggestion is to simply change the fight, by say, remove the loot, which I personally am fine with, if they add in an alternative that is equal in terms of ease / time consuming to get crafting materials / gold.

Also I don't think that shortterm banning is the answer, as it provides way too much negative press and feeling among the playerbase, and sets a very very bad precedence for future cases, a more logical shortterm solution is to publicly state that its okay /not okay, and if it isnt okay, put in a emergencypatch to change the mechanic related to the mobs to prevent farming.

natalia76 · April 2014

just lil curios when does this spawn camping actualy start, I am only lvl 13 and have not realy seen anything to bad yet, yes there is a few bosses that people tend to wait for respawn, but atleast yet it has not been a huge problem yet for me, then again i am not bothered that i dont se the boss fight that much, just glad I got the quest done easily and not had to die due to my own horrible way of playing hehe.

so at what leve is this becoming a problem.

Zarec · April 2014

Buppas wrote: »

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 wrote: »

Honestly I do not understand the "we have right to farm" argument regarding this very subject. I.E. boss camping.

I feel there's so many other way to farm crafting mats that does not interfere with other players enjoyment. Farmers don't have to camp boss to be able to craft.
So what's the point ?

Just as you can't don't understand the "we have a right to farm" attitiude, I expect most people have an "I don't understand why not" attitude, because quite frankly, there is NOTHING a public dungeon (or the skulls on the map) have as far as progression goes (this far anyway), except some loot, achivement, and maybe a challenging fight (which from my experience, is only challenging if you are solo)

Yes there are other ways, but none as efficient/fun (for me), I can spend 1h camping one boss and in this time: be social with my guild / other people camping, rack up 200+items to deconstruct along with 1-3k gp from soulgems / potions /misc. items I can't deconstruct

or I can spend 1h running around doing random things while looking for nodes to harvest for the materials (but miss out on the crafting xp from deconstructing), I'm at lvl 25 right now, and have my crafts at:
Blacksmith: 21 (70% in)
Clothing: 17 (80% in)
Woodworking: 22(60% in)

And in total I might have spent 4-5h grinding materials to get there (public dungeon boss farming), and haven't crafted a single item, just deconstruct, give away materials to friend / sell for more gp so I can buy more styles etc, it's simply the most time/cost effective way I've personally found to get to where I want with all the crafts, nevermind it drops alot of the traits I need to research aswell!

Farming isn't bad for MMO's, its what makes people stay, I'm personally glad the respawn is so short of it, and I agree on the sentiment that it can feel anticlimatic to enter a public dungeon and it not feeling like an achivement killing the lastboss due to the farmers, however there are other alternatives out there to reach that; use the group finder and do a dungeon.

I highly doubt zenimax will change the mechanic relating to public dungeons, as if you increase the spawntime, it will force people to simply stand around and wait for it to spawn to get the achivement, similary doing it the way I suggested (give people option to enter solo), is probably a coding / mechanic issue that is too large to "be worth it" from a business pov (pure speculation)
@Zarec

I agree the playground has changed since "back in the days", but I disagree with that I limit other peoples gameplay by farming a mob repeatedly (unless ofc, its required for a quest or gameprogression reasons), but the endboss in a public dungeon isn't neccessary for any progression, except getting achivements. I can't say for sure how Zenimax intended for this content to be played, but I would assume that they realised what would happen with a easy-to-farm mob that drops good money and crafting stuff inside a public dungeon, some peoples suggestion is to simply change the fight, by say, remove the loot, which I personally am fine with, if they add in an alternative that is equal in terms of ease / time consuming to get crafting materials / gold.

Also I don't think that shortterm banning is the answer, as it provides way too much negative press and feeling among the playerbase, and sets a very very bad precedence for future cases, a more logical shortterm solution is to publicly state that its okay /not okay, and if it isnt okay, put in a emergencypatch to change the mechanic related to the mobs to prevent farming.

Banning in the short term is usually the first go to response in these cases as I'm sure you're aware. Reason I am ok with it is while yes it catches players who are not botting, but also catches those who are and from what I've seen so far,the botters or afk script farmers are in more abundance than the people farming the boss for legit materials. Unfort they cannot cherry pick in those instances and will just ban them for exploiting as has already been done.

I don't think an easy fix is available due to the amount of phasing in this game. I hungrily await their answer to this though as so far I have yet to actually kill a boss in a dungeon.

Kyosji · April 2014

Anyone that comes on these forums and says that they can't get credit or loot from public bosses is a liar. You only have to hit it once..ONCE! This game implements free attack, so you can swing your sword of shoot your staff whenever you want. Stand at the point the boss spawns and just keep hitting that spot. It guarantees you a hit on the boss. I have never on any of my characters not been able to get credit on my first try when there are tons of players camping it. It actually makes it 10x easier to gain the achievement. Also, 1 hit is all it takes for the boss to drop loot.

Zarec · April 2014

Kyosji wrote: »

Anyone that comes on these forums and says that they can't get credit or loot from public bosses is a liar. You only have to hit it once..ONCE! This game implements free attack, so you can swing your sword of shoot your staff whenever you want. Stand at the point the boss spawns and just keep hitting that spot. It guarantees you a hit on the boss. I have never on any of my characters not been able to get credit on my first try when there are tons of players camping it. It actually makes it 10x easier to gain the achievement. Also, 1 hit is all it takes for the boss to drop loot.

Don't think that's the problem tiger.

Brockxz · April 2014

@‌natalia76 you are around that level when you start to experience you even won't see those bosses because they will die instantly. You will only be wondering what just happened and why i got achievement stating i completed something

pmn100b16_ESO · April 2014

natalia76 wrote: »

just lil curios when does this spawn camping actualy start, I am only lvl 13 and have not realy seen anything to bad yet, yes there is a few bosses that people tend to wait for respawn, but atleast yet it has not been a huge problem yet for me, then again i am not bothered that i dont se the boss fight that much, just glad I got the quest done easily and not had to die due to my own horrible way of playing hehe.

so at what leve is this becoming a problem.

You have to kill the boss in public dungeons to 'complete' that dungeon. Often you'll walk right past the boss area cause its dead. Just look for the pill of corpses and posse of players, the boss will spawn there.

pmn100b16_ESO · April 2014

Eps wrote: »

This is what instanced dungeons have been for for almost a decade.

Re-running whole instance dungeons, sure (i.e. kill boss, exit, re-enter from beginning). Camping spawn spots in the same instanced dungeon, no.

Kroin · April 2014

Yeah i have to agree that quit annoying, but i really dont understand why they are doing it the items are not worth it, and the exp is not that much from the boss.

Zarec · April 2014

Kroin wrote: »

Yeah i have to agree that quit annoying, but i really dont understand why they are doing it the items are not worth it, and the exp is not that much from the boss.

They are doing it for the materials for crafting and gold you get from doing it.

Baylen · April 2014

Spawn farming in public dungeons goes way back to UO and EQ (and to be completely fair was around in text MUDs way before that). Energy Vortex or Blade Barrier anyone? 4+ hour camping for rare bosses? There are simply good reasons why Instancing became the norm in MMO PVE content.

In PVP, public dungeons can work / serve a role as player bait / reward, but in PVE content, it rarely works out. What you end up with are players competing with each other for limited resources; the beautifully hand-crafted dungeon quest experience culminates in a hall filled with 15 players, all waiting with charged heavy attacks for a boss who’ll die the second he spawns. *sigh*

Farming isn’t bad per se, as you can’t blame people for pursuing rewarding activities. Farming is even a common element especially in subscription-based MMOs as you usually want to have ‘grinds’ to keep people p(l)aying.

What is bad, though, is having a toxic PVP element enter your PVE game. I came to complete a quest, battle a dungeon boss, not to “press button quicker than 15 other players”. It disrupts the immersion and, biologically speaking, causes stress in your player population. Just look at the vamp/werewolf spawns.

In short, this needs addressing on design level. Instancing usually is a good thing. Instance “unique mobs” to parties if you have to. Or have a single instanced room even at the end of public dungeons. The likes.

Additionally I suggest doing a poll somewhere down the road, possibly after that first month is over to exclude the ‘peekers only’. Ask your then-core-subscribers in a binary fashion if they care more about PVE or PVP. The answer will provide a good guideline where to allocate future development resources.

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 · April 2014

There's a recurring argument I would like to refute :

"It's the norm in MMO" or "We can do it in this other MMO".

It is not relevant! This game is not wow nor any of those others MMO

What force Zenimax to adopt the same way of doing than others?

(yes we can learn from other's MMO choices, history, experience, that doesn't mean we are bound to get the same *solutions*)

Kililin · April 2014

There are instanced Dungeons in this game? Maybe go there?

The normal flow of game play in open dungeons for the last two decades is: they are farmed, there are camps and you must, in some way or another, arrange you with the other players. It was possible in other games to settle disputes with camp checks and such things, or you could simply talk to other players and ask them to let you firsthit if you are not able to get credit. You could also try off hours etc.

In more open world MMO's there are not as much rules forced upon the players as say in WoW. for example: your are allowed to loot what you want vs. you are not allowed to loot things that are not designed for your spec.
Also you are allowed to farm or repeat dungeons/raids versus artificial lockout timers.

If i like to camp dungeon bosses and you don't like when i camp dungeon bosses.
And Zenimax enabled us to camp dungeon bosses, why in the world are you thinking that you are right and i am wrong? That i should be banned even? thats puzzling, and in reality i do not even camp spawns much because it is not fun for me.

This is obviously a request to change the way public dungeons have been designed, it is not a request to restore order or the way its meant to played.

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 · April 2014

But Zenimax did ban people for exploiting public dungeon boss.

That means that the official point of vue is that it's bad.

You agreed to follow the game rules. This is a game rule.
Not every rule (especially concerning attitude) can be technically enforced.
The fact that you can technically do it doesn't mean in any way you are allowed to do it.

In "real life" there's so many things you could do but which violate the law... see what I mean ?

Jade1986 · April 2014

Simple solution, make it like SWTOR, the area is instanced and once you kill the boss once, done, you cant kill it again, or go back in.

Zarec · April 2014

laced wrote: »

Simple solution, make it like SWTOR, the area is instanced and once you kill the boss once, done, you cant kill it again, or go back in.

would require rewriting of game code which would mean there would be massive changes so would not happen immediately to address this issue. Phasing would fix it but again would cause a lot of work for developers. There is really no easy fix to this as I do not think the developers expected this to be exploited to the extent that it is. If it did not harm other players ability to enjoy the game, I do not think it would be an issue, but unfortunately it has caused issues with gamers being able to enjoy and play the game as was intended by the game developers. Just one of those bumps in the road.

Jade1986 · April 2014

Well obviously something needs to be done, because if it is ruining peoples experience / quest progression, it needs to be dealt with firmly.

Kililin · April 2014

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 wrote: »

But Zenimax did ban people for exploiting public dungeon boss.

That means that the official point of vue is that it's bad.
...

Do you have insight on the details of the exploitation?
As far as i know these are not discussed with customers, i do not believe that you will be banned because of killing a mob repeatedly. In a legit way (w/o macros, bot software, not abusing respawn bugs etc.) Official word on this would be nice, because i am hesitant to believe hearsay on the forums.

I could imagine a ban if somebody asks for a chance to kill the mob while a highlevel player onehits it and refuses the chance.

Zarec · April 2014

Kililin wrote: »

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 wrote: »

But Zenimax did ban people for exploiting public dungeon boss.

That means that the official point of vue is that it's bad.
...

Do you have insight on the details of the exploitation?
As far as i know these are not discussed with customers, i do not believe that you will be banned because of killing a mob repeatedly. In a legit way (w/o macros, bot software, not abusing respawn bugs etc.) Official word on this would be nice, because i am hesitant to believe hearsay on the forums.

I could imagine a ban if somebody asks for a chance to kill the mob while a highlevel player onehits it and refuses the chance.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploit_(video_gaming)

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/567599/#Comment_567599

Laura · April 2014

just make it where you get no rewards after you kill it the first time for... say 12-24 hours. People are spamming them to get blues to break down for crafting so the other solution would be to make those items where you cant break them (which I think would not be ideal)

Zarec · April 2014

Laura wrote: »

just make it where you get no rewards after you kill it the first time for... say 12-24 hours. People are spamming them to get blues to break down for crafting so the other solution would be to make those items where you cant break them (which I think would not be ideal)

That would solve the problem quite nicely.

Numeriku · April 2014

Guys, stop feeding the troll, zarec is apparently an employee of "zos" , everything he says is true.

Zarec · April 2014

Numeriku wrote: »

Guys, stop feeding the troll, zarec is an employee of zos and everything he says is true.

Huh...when did I quit my job at the hospital to go work for zenimax? Am I at least making good money? What are my days off? Do they pay for contacts at least? Im almost out.

jadeappleb16_ESO · April 2014

People are correct when they say that camping mobs is a pretty normal occurence in other MMOs. I've been playing for years and done my share of camping and farming.

I've stood around a killed these bosses a few times to fill up on soul gems but only when there are a few other people. Once a crowd forms I've just left because the whole thing gets rather silly to me and more pain then it's worth. Staring at the screen to make sure you twitch fast enough to get that one hit is just a waste of my play time. I can completely understand how annoying this would be to people who just want to get at least some satisfaction from killing the end boss, especially if your following the story that goes along with it. (Sometimes I'm a story follower and sometimes I don't care.)

I have come across some obvious bots. Like the three, who just stood in one place and constantly fired off staffs whether the boss was there or not. (reported).

I guess my point is I can understand the sides of this argument. For me it really comes down to what Z wants. Even though farming is to some extent a normal MMO thing what isn't so normal is that this game, even though instanced to some extent is played with everyone on one megaserver. What's generally accepted behavior that people, including myself, are used to may just not fly in the same because of these differences.

Botting these bosses is an obvious infraction as any botting is. I really don't have an issue if Z doesn't want or think that this sort of boss camping is cool. It's their game and there world design vision. If they do want to say it's not cool then either by some change in design or with some statement they should say so, so that it is clear. Clear for those that may be used to farming like this being a normal MMO thing and clear for those not used to MMOs in general.

Just let the community know what the deal is and people can either adjust accordingly or decide that it isn't a design choice that they can live with.

Krym · April 2014

Zarec wrote: »

Yes,they can make up the rules as they go if they so chose due to a little clause in the EULA, granted they have to give you about ninety days notice.

Why do you ask?

it means they decide what's a bannable offense or not. if they're not banning killing a mob several times it should give you a hint...

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 wrote: »

But Zenimax did ban people for exploiting public dungeon boss.

citation needed

Zarec · April 2014

grayssonb16_ESO wrote: »

Zarec wrote: »

Yes,they can make up the rules as they go if they so chose due to a little clause in the EULA, granted they have to give you about ninety days notice.

Why do you ask?

it means they decide what's a bannable offense or not. if they're not banning killing a mob several times it should give you a hint...

elderscrollsb16_ESO109 wrote: »

But Zenimax did ban people for exploiting public dungeon boss.

citation needed

forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/comment/567599/#Comment_567599

wonder if they will remove that thread completely. It does make for an easy point to thread when someone wants a citation in these matters. Spec since the mods locked that thread.