Feedback on Yesterday's Battleground Brawl Livestream

Aldoss

LalMirchi wrote: »

So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.

The tail should not wag the dog IMHO

I disagree with this. We (the PvP community) did not chase Rich away. I'll definitely agree that some people made way more of a stink about the comments his wife made than should have been made, but the decision to stop streaming was likely not Rich's. You have control of your actions and if, when faced with adversity, you shy away and call it quits, that's on you, no one else.

That moment was honestly pretty pivotal for the public perception of the relationship between ZOS and its playerbase. PvPers were upset (and for good reason) and a comment was made, not even by Rich, that showed a complete lack of empathy for their frustrations. Also, here we are years later, and what's changed? Has balance been fixed? Has lag been fixed? Has cyro been touched?

Had ZOS acknowledged the community and their frustrations and actually made steps to correct them, Rich might still be streaming and highlighting the game. The PvPers would flock around him. Just like Brian, Rich was not a great PvPer and no one cared about it because no one expected him to be. His stream was a net positive and I hope that he and the higher ups choose to bring it back.

I loved that stream, despite my frustrations with PvP. I was subbed. I'd love to have Rich back streaming again.

StarOfElyon

Rogue_Coyote wrote: »

Just a thought, but it is possible this was Brian's first real "live" pvp gameplay experience? Being Lead whatever doesn't mean he is a player at all, he may be the most qualified on paper, simple as that.

That's the difference between a Brian is and a concept artist. Concepts aren't proven to function. Designs must be proven.

Adamus

I’ve already brought up a number of issues facing the current PvP meta in another post (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-gb/discussion/666573/no-clear-counter-play) so you can reference that for my thoughts on the state of PvP. After this stream I feel compelled to suggest fixes and direction change, but that’s its own post.

I think the formatting of the stream amplified some glaring issues that seemed to be confirmed by the stream to the PvP community. PvP is challenging as it takes practice and concentration, group leading is the same, running a stream has its own challenges and level of concentration. But all three at once? Not easy and I hope a new respect for players that do all three was found, even with only 1 group of 4.

An invite to join my group was already extended and continues to be there, we run groups 4 times a week during primetime, no build requirements. I think those making the changes to PvP need to experience what those changes do. Not just my group (or faction/server), it should be a regular thing activity gaming with players in-game. A regular stream would be cool, but playing off stream or incognito would be fine too. It is commonly brought up that players believe the dev team doesn’t PvP in Cyrodill, and if they do, they’re only running with ballgroups, the stream felt like it was confirming the former.

To be frank, a lot of the PvP community believe PvP is seen as a burden to the dev team, and somewhere in the chain of command they are trying to kill it off. So a stream with the person in charge of combat and PvP demonstrates a lack of knowledge of fundamental PvP CCs like a list of “pulls” or the most common one, Rush, or that charm acts like a stun and would be confused as a stun by a “returning” player; it gives a bad taste in the mouth for those that are tired of the same issues and the same promises to fix those same issues. Over and over again.

If anything is taken away from this experience it’s that there needs to more of these types of streams, not less. With active players, not successful streamers that moved on from this game ages ago. If the company needs to be in charge of the stream, give someone with experience a salary and make them the regular host that runs with other players, communities and streamers (games even). They don’t need to be a successful streamer (that would take away from the existing streamer community), just one that can handle the pressures of running a group in game, even in a competitive PvP environment all while managing an active stream. The devs and guest streamers should be along for the ride, not in charge of the show so they can interact with chat, each other and the community.

A lack of respect seemed to be given, maybe to group leading, streaming or PvP in general, it felt like there was no prep and it showed.

LadyGP

Aldoss wrote: »

LalMirchi wrote: »

So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.

The tail should not wag the dog IMHO

I disagree with this. We (the PvP community) did not chase Rich away. I'll definitely agree that some people made way more of a stink about the comments his wife made than should have been made, but the decision to stop streaming was likely not Rich's. You have control of your actions and if, when faced with adversity, you shy away and call it quits, that's on you, no one else.

That moment was honestly pretty pivotal for the public perception of the relationship between ZOS and its playerbase. PvPers were upset (and for good reason) and a comment was made, not even by Rich, that showed a complete lack of empathy for their frustrations. Also, here we are years later, and what's changed? Has balance been fixed? Has lag been fixed? Has cyro been touched?

Had ZOS acknowledged the community and their frustrations and actually made steps to correct them, Rich might still be streaming and highlighting the game. The PvPers would flock around him. Just like Brian, Rich was not a great PvPer and no one cared about it because no one expected him to be. His stream was a net positive and I hope that he and the higher ups choose to bring it back.

I loved that stream, despite my frustrations with PvP. I was subbed. I'd love to have Rich back streaming again.

Inject this into my veins. Yes, so much yes.

LalMirchi

The ideal would be ZOS combat devs facing up and competing against random players in PVP, win, lose or die, all have equal opportunities, streaming something like this would be astounding.

I must highlight this plea to the combat devs in particular, come on, show us your chops! You know the players would annihilate you but in the interest of good sportsmanship? Just the fact of actual devs participating would be electrifying. Perhaps letting the juniors compete against our players so the elders can stand back and observe and hopefully draw conclusions?

I'm convinced that fixing PVP issues would benefit the entire game as this would seem to be seem to be the most demanding task for the poor lagging servers at present?

As a non-PVPer, until I see huge battles flowing flawlessly in PVP I'm still sceptical and yes this part of the game needs to be fixed, mosdef!

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm very eager to read the replies from @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (and hopefully a statement from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or even @ZOS_MattFiror, as well) about this thread, now that the holiday is over.

I hope your vacation was enjoyable and I hope the extra time to aggregate player feedback in this thread was constructive. Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

Thanks y'all!

Hi @Aldoss! Thank you and thanks for the ping. I've been fighting the inbox boss all day today, catching up. Kevin is out this week, enjoying a much sunnier locale than Maryland. We're all very jealous.

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

Moonspawn

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi @Aldoss! Thank you and thanks for the ping. I've been fighting the inbox boss all day today, catching up. Kevin is out this week, enjoying a much sunnier locale than Maryland. We're all very jealous.

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom

I'd like to know if we can remove the dead 8v8 group queue and bring back 4v4v4 solo queue in its place. I have made a thread with the solutions to every single problem the old bgs had, please don't give up on them.

As much as I want the new bgs to work, I can't argue with the numbers. I never used to wait more than 5 minutes for a match, but now almost all of them take more than 15 minutes.

LadyGP

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm very eager to read the replies from @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (and hopefully a statement from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or even @ZOS_MattFiror, as well) about this thread, now that the holiday is over.

I hope your vacation was enjoyable and I hope the extra time to aggregate player feedback in this thread was constructive. Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

Thanks y'all!

Hi @Aldoss! Thank you and thanks for the ping. I've been fighting the inbox boss all day today, catching up. Kevin is out this week, enjoying a much sunnier locale than Maryland. We're all very jealous.

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

This is somewhat unrelated but I know people would appreciate it. Us who play in Cyro would really love to know what the pop cap is currently and some insight as to how those numbers are determined. Theres been years of speculation and what not regarding those numbers, especially when its MYM and the pop seems to jump up significantly (along with server performance). Just throwing the question out there for consideration.

Leia98

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm very eager to read the replies from @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (and hopefully a statement from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or even @ZOS_MattFiror, as well) about this thread, now that the holiday is over.

I hope your vacation was enjoyable and I hope the extra time to aggregate player feedback in this thread was constructive. Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

Thanks y'all!

Hi @Aldoss! Thank you and thanks for the ping. I've been fighting the inbox boss all day today, catching up. Kevin is out this week, enjoying a much sunnier locale than Maryland. We're all very jealous.

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

I think what I fundamentally cannot understand is this: Why does Zos keep implementing changes that the player base obviously doesn't want?

I know that some changes are necessary and they need to be implemented anyway, but this happens a lot of times in ESO,

For example: Almost nobody that I know playing PVP(other than the big groups I guess) likes the azureblight nerf. None. I am pretty sure that most of the community simply hates this change, and we have seen so many threads and comments about it here that one would have to be blind not to see them.
Moreover, there are some issues that definitely need fixing but nothing(as far as I can see, correct me if I'm wrong) is done about them: healing. Does Zos not really think that healing is extremely powerful in this game, and healing sources are so abundant, to the point where PVP, PVE and the whole game suffer? I don't get it.

I am a mainly PVE player and there are lots of changes that the community hated but were implemented and not touched again.. And as a templar main, I'm still offended by the fact that jabs were changed, nobody likes them, and zos doesn't even bother giving us an explanation as to why such a nerf was necessary: almost no templar player likes how jab functions now, but nothing is being done to make the players, who pay money so that their favorite product may continue, just happy, or happier.

I know this is a PVP thread, but since you are reading this topic I wanted to give out my opinion on this issue, hope you notice it and try to understand doing stuff that the playerbase wants, or reverting the changes that the playerbase hates, will do nothing but improve this game and all of us will be happy.

LadyGP

Leia98 wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm very eager to read the replies from @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (and hopefully a statement from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or even @ZOS_MattFiror, as well) about this thread, now that the holiday is over.

I hope your vacation was enjoyable and I hope the extra time to aggregate player feedback in this thread was constructive. Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

Thanks y'all!

Hi @Aldoss! Thank you and thanks for the ping. I've been fighting the inbox boss all day today, catching up. Kevin is out this week, enjoying a much sunnier locale than Maryland. We're all very jealous.

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

I think what I fundamentally cannot understand is this: Why does Zos keep implementing changes that the player base obviously doesn't want?

I know that some changes are necessary and they need to be implemented anyway, but this happens a lot of times in ESO,

For example: Almost nobody that I know playing PVP(other than the big groups I guess) likes the azureblight nerf. None. I am pretty sure that most of the community simply hates this change, and we have seen so many threads and comments about it here that one would have to be blind not to see them.
Moreover, there are some issues that definitely need fixing but nothing(as far as I can see, correct me if I'm wrong) is done about them: healing. Does Zos not really think that healing is extremely powerful in this game, and healing sources are so abundant, to the point where PVP, PVE and the whole game suffer? I don't get it.

I am a mainly PVE player and there are lots of changes that the community hated but were implemented and not touched again.. And as a templar main, I'm still offended by the fact that jabs were changed, nobody likes them, and zos doesn't even bother giving us an explanation as to why such a nerf was necessary: almost no templar player likes how jab functions now, but nothing is being done to make the players, who pay money so that their favorite product may continue, just happy, or happier.

I know this is a PVP thread, but since you are reading this topic I wanted to give out my opinion on this issue, hope you notice it and try to understand doing stuff that the playerbase wants, or reverting the changes that the playerbase hates, will do nothing but improve this game and all of us will be happy.

I will say Azure blight was having a performance impact on the server so I'm curious if part of the change was to address that - without actually saying it was the reason.

Aldoss

Thanks for the update @ZOS_JessicaFolsom. I really do appreciate it.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

I'm hopeful for this post. There are actions made in the past that I've been present for that stick out for me as pivotal, just like the response to Rich's stream was, as was the lie about the Q&A from U35. I think that this currently feels like one of those moments to me.

I really want to see you succeed and I really want a reason to open my wallet again.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

This slightly worries me a bit because I've read every reply on this topic thus far, and the main takeaway I'm getting is not that there was anything wrong with the stream, but that there was a problem with the implication.

Just like no one expected Rich to be a great pvper, I don't think there are any (reasonable) players here that were expecting that from Brian. The difference lies in the fact that the stream was marketed as a highlight of the PvP system and the system was 1. broken, and 2. the ZOS employee running the stream didn't succeed in displaying confidence in the systems that he directs.

If PvP were in a good state, and the BGs weren't broken, that stream would have been fine. Sure, there would still be the few players that want to chirp about "omg the lead combat dev didn't remember what Rush of Agony was KEKW", but it wouldn't matter because combat was fine.

The problem is that combat is very much not fine and it hasn't been fine for years. The only insight we're ever given is through dev comment spoilers during PTS rounds which is frankly just insulting.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

Yes. Thank you for asking. If I had to condense the massive list of current issues with PvP and ESO into my 5 top questions:

1. Why was the decision made to combine PvE and PvP combat designs into one role after Wrobel left and do you think that this decision has had a positive or negative effect on the current balance of combat?

2. How many developers are on staff that are dedicated to correcting of combat balance?

3. What metrics (if any) does ZOS currently have defined to quantify their success of combat balance?

4. Follow up, do you (ZOS) currently have a roadmap in place to attain the defined metrics?

5. How does ZOS intend to learn from this incident and what will you be implementing to ensure that a thread like this never gets created again?


All of these questions I hope are clearly understood to be regarding the direction of combat and not individual issues such as: "why hasn't Polar Wind been adjusted in <x number> patches, despite being the most overused and broken healing skill currently in the PvP meta?"

None of those questions would happen (on a grand scale) if there were robust answers to my 5 top questions.

I appreciate this reply. Please forgive my skepticism when I'm told "soon" by the same people who told me that a Q&A would happen "soon", only for it to get ignored and forgotten about. I'm really hoping to see some change here.

Thank you.

kiwi_tea

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Aldoss wrote: »

I'm very eager to read the replies from @ZOS_Kevin and @ZOS_JessicaFolsom (and hopefully a statement from @ZOS_BrianWheeler or even @ZOS_MattFiror, as well) about this thread, now that the holiday is over.

I hope your vacation was enjoyable and I hope the extra time to aggregate player feedback in this thread was constructive. Should we expect a reply this week or will there be more time with internal discussions before addressing the concerns shared within this thread?

Thanks y'all!

Hi @Aldoss! Thank you and thanks for the ping. I've been fighting the inbox boss all day today, catching up. Kevin is out this week, enjoying a much sunnier locale than Maryland. We're all very jealous.

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

It would be nice to see Brian back, and built up as a contributor. Let him know not to be discouraged. Showcase a range of builds. Consult with regular, current top players about the PVP meta, and definitely hold a team briefing before stream about the current BGs meta and what sets and skills you might need to field questions about. You can't cover everything, obviously, but be ready to discuss powerful procs that are everywhere like Rush of Agony, Scavenging Demise, alongside skills from the newer classes that are common in PVP.

Etherea1

I am hoping to see more of such streams in the future.
I also hope ESO guys not getting discouraged by negative feedback.
I wish they could see EU or NA Greyhost campaign in all its primetime glory, things we like like 20x20 deployed sieges, massive bridgefights. They should see things we despise like 2 ballgroups rolling some pugs on their last keep.

BTW I am primarily PC EU player, but have "auxilllary" NA char and somehow managed to join last bg of that famous sream as opposing team.

Turtle_Bot

Aldoss wrote: »

Thanks for the update @ZOS_JessicaFolsom. I really do appreciate it.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

I'm hopeful for this post. There are actions made in the past that I've been present for that stick out for me as pivotal, just like the response to Rich's stream was, as was the lie about the Q&A from U35. I think that this currently feels like one of those moments to me.

I really want to see you succeed and I really want a reason to open my wallet again.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

This slightly worries me a bit because I've read every reply on this topic thus far, and the main takeaway I'm getting is not that there was anything wrong with the stream, but that there was a problem with the implication.

Just like no one expected Rich to be a great pvper, I don't think there are any (reasonable) players here that were expecting that from Brian. The difference lies in the fact that the stream was marketed as a highlight of the PvP system and the system was 1. broken, and 2. the ZOS employee running the stream didn't succeed in displaying confidence in the systems that he directs.

If PvP were in a good state, and the BGs weren't broken, that stream would have been fine. Sure, there would still be the few players that want to chirp about "omg the lead combat dev didn't remember what Rush of Agony was KEKW", but it wouldn't matter because combat was fine.

The problem is that combat is very much not fine and it hasn't been fine for years. The only insight we're ever given is through dev comment spoilers during PTS rounds which is frankly just insulting.

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

Yes. Thank you for asking. If I had to condense the massive list of current issues with PvP and ESO into my 5 top questions:

1. Why was the decision made to combine PvE and PvP combat designs into one role after Wrobel left and do you think that this decision has had a positive or negative effect on the current balance of combat?

2. How many developers are on staff that are dedicated to correcting of combat balance?

3. What metrics (if any) does ZOS currently have defined to quantify their success of combat balance?

4. Follow up, do you (ZOS) currently have a roadmap in place to attain the defined metrics?

5. How does ZOS intend to learn from this incident and what will you be implementing to ensure that a thread like this never gets created again?


All of these questions I hope are clearly understood to be regarding the direction of combat and not individual issues such as: "why hasn't Polar Wind been adjusted in <x number> patches, despite being the most overused and broken healing skill currently in the PvP meta?"

None of those questions would happen (on a grand scale) if there were robust answers to my 5 top questions.

I appreciate this reply. Please forgive my skepticism when I'm told "soon" by the same people who told me that a Q&A would happen "soon", only for it to get ignored and forgotten about. I'm really hoping to see some change here.

Thank you.

Some very good points here.

Just wanted to add some follow up questions onto this list of questions above:

- (Follow up on question 1.) What improvements would be looked at to ensure future success of combat design and what methods would be looked at to best achieve this?

- (Follow up on question 2.) Is there enough importance being placed on combat balance and game-play via ensuring enough/the right team members are involved in combat balance adjustments?

- (Follow up on question 3.) What reflections are being done after a change has been deemed a success or failure to determine why and what can be done next time?

- (Follow up on question 5.) How does ZOS intend to ensure that the lessons learnt from this incident will be remembered and put into practice in the future?

Overall I do want to say that I do really enjoy seeing dev live streams where they play and talk about the game, providing insights into things like "intended design/use/goal of X thing", "vision for (or direction of) the game or a recent change", etc.

I do want to raise a couple of observations that would help for future streams with the devs.

1. The devs who do join these streams should probably be the "guests" of the streams instead of trying host the streams (Hosting is a lot more work than being a guest). This way the devs can focus more on playing the game, providing insightful commentary and think about feedback to take back to the team as they play and talk to the streamers.
Let the streamers be the "host" of the streams, where the streamers will concentrate more on relaying relevant questions/feedback from chat to the devs to get some insight/dev thoughts on those questions.

Ideally the streamer joining/hosting the dev would be a current player that is somewhat knowledgeable in the relevant content being streamed who can help navigate situations like the "Brian doesn't know Rush of Agony" issue being raised in this thread (as I outline in the spoiler below).

For example when Sypher asked "What is pulling me around", which was understandable for him to ask since he hasn't played ESO since before Rush of Agony got added to the game/became super common.

A current player would have been able to instead ask Brian "What are your thoughts on the ability to remove another players player agency by constantly pulling players around with sets like Rush of Agony?"

This would have allowed Brian to give some insightful thoughts on the mechanics involved with Rush of Agony without needing to worry about the small details like the name of a set (insight such as the intended use for the set) that would have been super insightful, not just for the players and those watching the stream, but also insightful for the devs themselves to see, hear about and get first hand experience of the issues surrounding the set that they can take back to the team and help work on a solution with a first hand understanding of what the issue is.

I understand the importance of reaching as wide of an audience as possible with streams like this, so can see why SypherPK was chosen to join Brian. But it certainly would have helped to have another more current player there who can help Brian with questions that may arise due to Sypher being away from the game for such a long time. This way the other streamer/player could help Brian to answer Sypher's question about Rush of Agony and even help to elaborate on the question, to turn that "oops" moment into an insightful moment as I explained above in this spoiler.

2. (and I am trying to say this in the most constructive way possible), but, there also really needs to be a lot more in-depth prep-work done for these types of streams that the devs join (something I'm sure that the streamers who would be joining/hosting the devs would be glad to help out with this). Prep-work such as:
- Ensuring the devs are abridged of any relevant popular issues/feedback associated with the content of the stream (as outlined in the spoiler above).
- Ensuring that there are some notes/thoughts/prompts written down on the "hot-button" issues or "popular feedback" regarding the content to prevent as many "oops" moments as possible (everyone is human, so these moments will always happen regardless, the goal is to prevent/reduce the ones that can be avoided).
- Ensuring a community manager (or another employee) is watching the stream, taking notes of common or constantly asked questions/issues/topics that get asked about or feedback/ideas that are given so that those ideas/feedback/issues/topics/questions can be recorded, and then reflected on/looked at, at a later time when there is more time to critically analyze and understand them.

3. (As I pointed out before) There will always be chatters in chat trying to get a "gotcha" moment or just generally being silly in chat (e.g. the chatters typing different ways of saying PvP in streams a few years ago in the whole "saying PvP in chat gets you moderated" issues back then). Even streamers who have super wholesome communities always get those people in chat, the best thing to do is ignore them, keep moving on with the stream and only really look at moderating them if the comments become personal.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom thanks again for continuing to engage with this thread, the continued engagement is refreshing to see, but as @Aldoss said, (and I hope you can understand) that our skepticism is still there due to many past actions (or lack there of), so fingers crossed this type of engagement continues long term and some real changes do come from this as I (and everyone else) just want to see the game be as good as we all know it can be. Good luck fighting the inbox boss, hope you all had a good thanksgiving break.

JonesFPS

Focus a lot more on Endgame whether its PVP or PVE. You need to create player retention so folks stay active and dont leave after finishing the quests of a new zone in about 1 or 2 days.
Reach out to your content creators both PVE and PVP. Invite them to an open discussion to whats their take to improve the game.
TALK TO THE COMMUNITY MORE.
At least give us your take on feedback given to you but mostly ignored and neglected ( f. ex. templar jabs and many more). If people get a good reasoning as to why something was changed there may be more understanding.

katanagirl1

I appreciate the continuing feedback here. I am not a big BG player, and am unhappy about the recent changes, but am more interested in the gear sets that keep coming out now that are so much more computationally intensive than earlier ones and how they are affecting combat. For example, I wonder if those calculations are being made only when in combat or perhaps they are being done continuously, even outside of combat. I am thinking that possibly some more performance tests would be helpful, though perhaps that might be more useful if someone like Brian were participating during the tests and able to see performance metrics onscreen in real time. BG groups might not be large enough to see effects so larger groups in Cyrodiil would be a better stress test. I don’t know the details of the previous test but I am guessing it was done at the server level, not from a player perspective, and I am just thinking out loud here. I generally don’t see many performance issues myself, whereas others do have more problems, but I don’t group so that could be the cause.

Sorry if I am rambling but I love Cyrodiil PvP and would be happy if more players could enjoy it and we get back to big fights again. Thank you.

Muizer

Aldoss wrote: »

This slightly worries me a bit because I've read every reply on this topic thus far, and the main takeaway I'm getting is not that there was anything wrong with the stream, but that there was a problem with the implication.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom And concerning implications, I recall also the stream where the battlegrounds were announced. Brian mentioned that they had been in the works for something like 2 years IIRC. So I guess my question is how the studio took so much time to release a feature that hardly anyone requested, while long standing issues with ESO's favourite PvP content, Cyrodiil ostensibly received no attention. How does a decision and planning like that come about? To know might help us manage our expectations better.

silky_soft

Why is defile so weak?
Why are cost increase poisons so weak?
Why is healing absorption so weak and rare?
Why has negate not been added to scribing?
Why isn't there more access to remove shields via scribing?
Why havnt skill lines without active skills been prioritised scribing skills?
Why aren't there scribing ultimate skills?
Why isn't there a way for off balance to knock players out of block?
Why doesn't block casting ramp the cost of block, like streak, dodge and cloak ramps?
Why can't we steal or siphon HoT, shield or buff from a target, even via an ultimate?
Why does streak ignore sprint cap and allow regen?
Why am I always desync?
Why do my heavy attacks just not work anymore?
Why does rush of agony pull me from across the map?
Why don't we have voluntary surveys in game?
Why hasn't the range on battleground sigil activation been increased yet?
Why doesn't a team in 8v8 getting face rolled get free sigils in spawn?
Why is there still 8m free range added to battlespirit and not on to the reach passive?
Why is there no global cooldown for all proc sets?
Why is there no cabybaras in tamriel?

loosej

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hi @Aldoss! Thank you and thanks for the ping. I've been fighting the inbox boss all day today, catching up. Kevin is out this week, enjoying a much sunnier locale than Maryland. We're all very jealous.

We're putting together our thoughts on some steps we'd like to take to improve overall communication, especially the cadence consistency. And much of that is taking into consideration the recommendations here. We'd like to share that soon (it its own thread) to get everyone's input.

For this thread, we've all been reading it and taking the feedback to heart. There are things we can improve for future streams, for sure, and opportunities to utilize members of the dev team.

Are there specific questions you have regarding Update 44 and battlegrounds for which we could help get you answers?

Great to see you guys this actively involved in this thread Jessica, keep it up. Most of what I think needs saying has been said already, just throwing in my 2 cents in the hope that it helps underline the importance of this issue.

I can't help but notice that there's one topic you're avoiding here. Better communication, cadence consistency, future stream improvements and some form of U44 battleground Q&A all sound great. But the big issue pointed out in this thread is that the community has felt like the developers are completely disconnected from the players for a long time now, that feedback on changes and big issues gets ignored, and that this stream has pretty much confirmed that idea.

I personally wasn't expecting Brian to be any good at PvP. I wouldn't even expect anyone who designs and/or programs the game to actively play it on their own time, because it would turn into testing/working as soon as something isn't working as intended. So I admire his willingness to go out and play the game in public while a large part of the community is watching.

But knowing how much Rush of Agony gets discussed, he should have at least known that "oh yeah that's that pull set everyone complains about in pvp".

Knowing how much the dreaded tank meta gets discussed, he should have been able to anticipate that saying he runs a tank build "to annoy people" would cause a lot of backlash.

This isn't an attempt to critique him personally. But the fact that he wasn't aware of those issues is a big problem. We often get the feedback "we passed it along", but we don't know who you pass it along to, and if it ends up reaching the people it's supposed to reach. I'm not saying that the community managers aren't doing their job, or that Brian is actively shielding himself from these issues. But the fact that he's not aware they exist means something in your internal communication chain doesn't work. So my main questions would be:

• Now that he is aware of these issues, does he and/or his team plan to address them? Or does he and/or his team disagree they are issues in the first place?
• Are you making internal changes to ensure that he is aware of them in the future?
• Are there any plans to act more based on player feedback when it diverges from the original vision he and/or his team had?

Erissime

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, adding onto what Kevin posted earlier in this thread we'd like to address a few pieces of feedback we’ve seen about yesterday’s stream and more broadly touch on some of our communication philosophies.

First and foremost, thank you to everyone who has maintained constructiveness in this discussion thread. We’ve always said that constructive critical feedback is welcome and valuable, and we do mean it. As many of you who have been around awhile know, we also typically do not allow discussions about specific developers or the dev team. We prefer discussions focus on the game, as discussions about individual devs or the team often turn personal in a bad way. That said, we appreciate the efforts by most in this discussion to remain constructive and will leave it open so long as that continues. We do still encourage focusing commentary on the game, though, and not individual devs.

On the topic of our developers, we’ve seen through the years commentary around expectations of developer skill levels, especially with the more competitive PVP and PVE content. It's not expected that a developer has god-tier skill at the game. We have a wide range of skills and interests on the team, just like within our community. We range from progression pushers to casual players and everything in between, and that allows us to account for all player types - not just the god-tier ones.
This goes for knowledge about the game, too. ESO is a huge game with a lot of remember and track. We don't expect perfect encyclopedic recall of every piece a developer has ever worked on. Spacing on a name of an ability while running a stream or taking part in an interview doesn't mean that developer doesn't know the game or skills. It means they’re human.

On the topic of communication, we want to be able to talk with you all more, get out there and play with game with you more, do more livestreams, etc. When a developer puts themselves out there and is met with unrealistic expectations and general personal attacks, it makes them not want to do any of those things again. So please, if you want more communication from us, keep in mind to be respectful and constructive. It’s okay to be frustrated, disappointed, unhappy with something, etc. and we only ask that you communicate that to us without bashing our developers in the process. Anecdotally, we also want players of all skill levels to feel welcome to try out things like PVP Battlegrounds, Cyrodiil, dungeons, and trials, and feel okay with not necessarily being top-tier at it. It's always disappointing to see gatekeeping commentary and behavior – that’s not in the spirit of our community.

On the topic of some of the issues and concerns you all have called out, we are looking into why there are still some queuing issues like the ones you saw us encounter yesterday during the stream. We are aware of them and are digging into whether they’re due to people disconnecting, people declining the invite, or if something else is going on. We are also working on improving our MMR logic so that it provides a better experience and more balanced matches.

This was long, so if you read it all, thank you. 😊 The team here does care, very much, and we want to get out there and interact with you more. Please remember there are hardworking individuals behind the names, and a little kindness can go a long way.

No. Just no. I did not watch the stream , I have no idea who Brian or the other person is, but I keep reading this thread and all I ever see are VERY respectful comments from people genuinely wanting to see their favourite game improved.

On the other hand I see a person you yourselves pushed out there to be "roasted" (but to be fair what people write is nothing of the sort!) in the character of lead and in charge with a particular side of the game, namely PVP. I also understand that said person also designs on the pvp side of the game, and yet he himself is not capable of playing it.

You will forgive my lack of understanding something which poses a question for me in my own field of work in a long time: How is it possible a creator to lack if not the capacity of using his/her own creation, the passion of toying with that creation in all of its aspects?

I keep reading around that said dev keeps playing a single style in forever, a style he has also adopted in the stream. Forgive me if I fail to understand that. I understand preferences, but to my knowledge when you are pro at your job ( and I mean job, not game, and I consider all of Zos pro at what they are doing!) you can and WILL play and use ALL of the possibilities you put out there for others to enjoy, else .... no. Just ... no.

And yes human error is accepted and understood. I myself fail to know answers of things I use everyday on the spurr of the moment while multitasking. Human preference is understood too. I myself have tried all classes and only chose two to stick with. Human likes and dislikes as far as gaming styles are concerened are also normal.

What is not normal is the lack of interaction with the game itself, and the excuse of "casual " in the capacity of a creator. Creators are not casual. They cannot be casual. Not in knowledge, not in experience, and not in passion. They can drop for a time the gaming side of things, they may not foresee all the potential combinations and builds an entire community is capable of ( that would be insane to begin with, for we are many, that person seems to be alone), but they may not be out of touch with what is going on today in the game.
Just from reading the build they seem to have shared, I am amazed (and not in a good way). When I joined pvp ( which was about 2/3 years ago) some of those sets were still talked about, but for the most part considered "past tense" if you catch my drift.

So while defending a dear colegue is also natural, and appreciated, good intentions are not enough. Not when you want to deliver a well made product to a mass of customers. Is this considered a negative sentiment I am sharing? In today's society with sensitivities growing by the day higher and higher to the point of ridiculous (none of the above included)? Probably yes.

It truly is? Well that stands with you and your TRUE intent of playing with us, your loyal customers and players, and your REAL desire of interaction and improvement. [snip]

Wishing to see the devs or specifically appointed persons from Zos join the Cyrodiil scene too ( as well as battlegrounds of course, but since that seems to be somewhat tackled... I will consider it already in their schedule) in all servers - preferably on a regular bases - and hoping we are given a passionate heart to deal with something we ourselves love. In some cases, with a passion.

[edited for bashing]

ioResult

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, adding onto what Kevin posted earlier in this thread we'd like to address a few pieces of feedback we’ve seen about yesterday’s stream and more broadly touch on some of our communication philosophies.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom this was a response posted in the comments of Nefas' YouTube video regarding this BG stream topic, which perhaps can be taken as constructive criticism:

If ZOS had a PR expert on staff they'd have made a whole event not just out of the stream but done a build up to it. They could have made it, "Hey, our lead combat dev is going into BGs live. ESOFam! What classes do you want to see him running? What should his build be? What skills should he be running?" The forums would have LIT UP with suggestions and PvP theorycrafting for him. This way the ESO PvP community gets engaged with ZOS and the entire ESO community can LEARN from the PvP experts as to why they make the choices they make in their builds. They should have done this on the forums at the beginning of the PTS cycle (and advertised it in game) so that by the time there's only 2 weeks left until the new patch drops, Brian knows what he's running and has two weeks to practice with it. Same with Sypher. Then BG day comes and Brian is running what the PvP community thinks he should be running and he can joke on stream about only having a couple of weeks to try it out, thanking the ESO PvP community for all their help with his build. THIS is how you put on a PR-friendly live event that fosters community engagement.

Erickson9610

ioResult wrote: »

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, adding onto what Kevin posted earlier in this thread we'd like to address a few pieces of feedback we’ve seen about yesterday’s stream and more broadly touch on some of our communication philosophies.

@ZOS_JessicaFolsom this was a response posted in the comments of Nefas' YouTube video regarding this BG stream topic, which perhaps can be taken as constructive criticism:

If ZOS had a PR expert on staff they'd have made a whole event not just out of the stream but done a build up to it. They could have made it, "Hey, our lead combat dev is going into BGs live. ESOFam! What classes do you want to see him running? What should his build be? What skills should he be running?" The forums would have LIT UP with suggestions and PvP theorycrafting for him. This way the ESO PvP community gets engaged with ZOS and the entire ESO community can LEARN from the PvP experts as to why they make the choices they make in their builds. They should have done this on the forums at the beginning of the PTS cycle (and advertised it in game) so that by the time there's only 2 weeks left until the new patch drops, Brian knows what he's running and has two weeks to practice with it. Same with Sypher. Then BG day comes and Brian is running what the PvP community thinks he should be running and he can joke on stream about only having a couple of weeks to try it out, thanking the ESO PvP community for all their help with his build. THIS is how you put on a PR-friendly live event that fosters community engagement.

I don't think having the community vote on what build he should run would've been a good idea. He would've had to farm for that equipment to set up the build and then learn how to play that build if he's not already familiar with it.

Plus, the community might've asked him to run the meta PvP builds this patch, and that really wasn't the point of the casual PvP stream.

NotNi.ya

LalMirchi wrote: »

So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.

The tail should not wag the dog IMHO

That was because of inappropriate and unneeded comments that were never addressed. you cant mock an entire community and get away scott free.

Northwold

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

Hey all, it's late but I wanted to hop in and say thank you for the many constructive and thoughtful responses since I last posted, especially those from @Destai @ESO_Nightingale @ForumSavant and @Turtle_Bot. There are fair concerns, criticisms, and suggestions here. While I can't respond to all of them, please know I've read every post and we are discussing best steps forward. I know we've said this before, but we can always do better with our communication. In that line of thought, beyond forum posts what method do you all most prefer for answers to questions? What is the most visible? A Q&A post/article? A Reddit AMA? Something else?

I honestly think reddit is a more productive forum for player engagement simply because it has so many more players and a much more "normal" mix of different *types* of players.

A lot of the stuff we see on this forum seems to be "the community view" of people who've been playing ESO and only ESO for literally a decade, and a lot of the changes often suggested here as "the whole community demands" are in fact super niche, to put it mildly, or would have the practical effect of damaging the game for anyone except the most hardcore player. We even had posts earlier in the year saying that ZOS were wasting resources by attempting to address the new player experience (?!?!?), when it was desperately, desperately bad, simply because that meant 100% of resources weren't being devoted to their pet activity.

The trouble with reddit, though, is the sheer toxicity of some people on there.

Bammlschwamml

The video on twitch is not available anymore.

I was surprised they didn't delete it earlier.

Hopefully this will not be the end of this conversation again.

Fixing performance issues and preventing buggy, unfinished and boring releases would benefit everyone. Unfortunately things still haven't changed. At least not for the players. This conversation still has to happen. The responsible people shouldn't let others speak for them. They should be able to tell us why nothing has changed themselves, acknowledge the real problems, show us they understand what's wrong and be honest about what's going to happen in the future. I would like to hear from the same people who talk to big investors. Not just the community "managers" and forum police. After all WE pay for all of this in the end, and we can make an even bigger paycheck happen for everyone, if we are happy.

Pvp- and endgame enthusiasts are like canaries in a cole mine. They feel problems a lot earlier than others. Being angry at canaries, being offended by their screams and ignoring them until they are all gone and silent, won't change the fact that there is still a huge problem waiting for everyone else. If they want this game to be healthy, they will have to do a lot better, not just a little bit. And i don't mean the employees, i mean the bosses. Then they wouldn't have to develop completely new games and pray for people to buy them, they could just fix this one and know it will bring in a lot of money for a long long time.

kiwi_tea

IMO, hiding the video just adds to the negative PR, and it's this attitude of sweeping things away that has hurt relationships with players over the longer term. For years there has been this apparent marketing disconnect where ZOS's community/PR team act a little like if they don't discuss a PVP issue the issue ceases to matter. Ultimately that has hurt relationships with the entire PVP community, and caused some very negative behaviours from a community that has felt not only neglected but often actively suppressed.

I understand there is a school of PR advisors who always advocate the "say nothing" approach, but what hiding the video signals to me is a continuation of the "say nothing, do nothing, ergo nothing is wrong" philosophy of the past 5-odd years. That philosophy is not helping ZOS or the players, and it needs adjusting. Mostly it's an issue with the product, not with marketing, but from outside looking in it feels like ZOS is trying to "fix" the product via community management and PR instead of fixing... ...the product. Having, years ago, worked in a corporate office this would not surprise me. Often the bosses and sales team expect a production team to deliver something that is *physically impossible to produce* given the resources that team actually has. It wouldn't shock me if it was the case, but there is a threshold of underdelivering on the product where the tactic not only doesn't work, it also becomes obvious to everyone (eg, clients start pushing back in a rather pointed way, or they take their business elsewhere).

Just leave the stream up. It's done. It's was one of the more important livestreams ZOS has done in a long while, and whether it becomes a net negative or a net positive depends entirely on ZOS's next steps. It could be the start of a renewed relationship and a change in priorities, and a marker of when things turned around for ESO PVP (and even ESO more generally).

Hiding the stream is like doubling down on the self-damage at this point - because the damage is to *relationships with players*. Hiding it is furtive, and looks fundamentally like the start of an evasive strategy. It looks way too much like the beginning of "forget this ever happened".

I can only make guesses. Maybe it's not actually possible to reallocate resources to address PVP issues overall, so ZOS needs this to disappear. By hiding the video - which was definitely another weird and damaging move on ZOS's part - you've certainly put me into a mindset of "Oh, okay, ultimately we're going to see a continuation of the slightly hostile-feeling evasiveness of the past 5 years." I doubt I'm the only one who instinctively has this reaction. It's not the mindset you want to foster in players.

I'm trying to be positive about the future, but torching the evidence is - to me - a pretty big red flag.

PLEASE: Put away the gas cannister, and deal with this as a nuts-and-bolts issue in the game itself, not principally as a *marketing* issue. It is the former much more than it is the latter!

Sleepsin

ZOS keeps saying, they want to improve communications. Yet all we get is silence and deletion of comments/videos.

Destai

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Really disappointed to see the video gone. I don’t think it’s worth my time to watch streams in the future if this how a small bump in the road is handled.

And to be frank, I really don’t know how the folks at ZOS expect anything to change for the better. For years, it’s been this combination of content removal/moderation, scarce engagement, and controversial decisions. Obviously, something isn’t working right if we as a community keep going through this vicious cycle.

Gamers can be rude sometimes, that doesn’t justify not getting out there and engaging those who actually care. Actions like this just galvanize people against ZOS. You guys at ZOS really need to understand that already. The video was already seen, the digital world is already discussing it. Those conversations aren’t just going to stop. The narrative is already outside of your control. And if you’re going to turtle up - again - you won’t regain that control.

Between this and the in-person event cancellation, I am feeling very discouraged about this game and how it is managed. More than anything technical, more than anything in the crown store. This.

Please reconsider your approach to communication. We are not your enemies.

OtarTheMad

Aldoss wrote: »

LalMirchi wrote: »

So when the players and commenters chased Rich away from streaming, I'm still sad.

The tail should not wag the dog IMHO

I disagree with this. We (the PvP community) did not chase Rich away. I'll definitely agree that some people made way more of a stink about the comments his wife made than should have been made, but the decision to stop streaming was likely not Rich's. You have control of your actions and if, when faced with adversity, you shy away and call it quits, that's on you, no one else.

That moment was honestly pretty pivotal for the public perception of the relationship between ZOS and its playerbase. PvPers were upset (and for good reason) and a comment was made, not even by Rich, that showed a complete lack of empathy for their frustrations. Also, here we are years later, and what's changed? Has balance been fixed? Has lag been fixed? Has cyro been touched?

Had ZOS acknowledged the community and their frustrations and actually made steps to correct them, Rich might still be streaming and highlighting the game. The PvPers would flock around him. Just like Brian, Rich was not a great PvPer and no one cared about it because no one expected him to be. His stream was a net positive and I hope that he and the higher ups choose to bring it back.

I loved that stream, despite my frustrations with PvP. I was subbed. I'd love to have Rich back streaming again.

I loved his stream too and I did not care if he or any dev is good at the game, it was entertaining and informative. The comment was blown WAY out of proportion too. Everyone was laughing in chat, including the person who asked it.

We all got so much information from Rich about the game during his streams, it was great for communication. Hopefully it’s brought back.

Onomog

Actions always speak louder than any words ever will. Removing the video says a lot, and none of it is good.